Butane canister cold weather performance?

So which brand of butane canister has the best cold weather performance?

I can buy jetboil, primus and MSR brand canisters in local market. Primus is advertised as mix of butane, isobutane and propane. MSR is isobutane and propane. Jetboil doesn't say.

Does anyone has any experience with any of these in cold temperature, say around -10 to -20 C? (that's -4 to 14 F for imperial users).

(yes I know liquid fuel is best for cold, but for this particular instance they are not suitable)

When it's in the 30s and 40s I can tell butane is cold I can't imagine -20C.

At that temperature range, you're going to have to rely on "tricks" to get them to work. Warming the canister in your coat helps alot. Another trick is to set the canister in dish filled with water when you go to use the stove (helps keep it from cooling off when you use it in freezing weather).

As for the fuel mix, you don't want anything but isobutane and propane. Im pretty sure that MSR has the most propane compared to the rest (there might be another one out there that's better, but it isn't in any of the stores around here so I can't remember).

Thanks. Now I'm thinking maybe butane canister isn't the best option here.

The intend of this kit is to have a 225g canister inside a small cup/pot, and have with me on trips that fire/boiling isn't planned, for just in case situations.

Depends on the stove, many stoves such as Primus EtaPacklite, Primus Himalaya Omnifuel, Gosystems 2000 gas burner adapter (designed for Trangia 27s and 25s, Esbit Alcohol stove) and others will quite readily burn the butane and propane from any of the above canisters if using liquid feed operation.



Inverting the canister in the above photo will work down to similar temperatures as the Coleman Powermax canisters (specifically designed for liquid feed operation) @ around -20C, i.e. similar temperatures to liquid coleman white gas fueled stoves . The Esbit stove + Gosystems 2000 will for example boil a cup of water (250ml) in around 45 seconds.

A reusable chemical hand warmer can be used underneath a canister to warm it up under extreme conditions. To reuse the hand warmer just reactivate using some of the cannister fuel by some additional boiling water when your finished with the stove for the next time it is used.

I would consider an alcohol stove for moderate conditions (above freezing). They can be obscenely light. Adapters are available that will get alcohol stoves functioning in really cold conditions, but then the stove of choice would be a liquid gas type - good old Svea or MSR units shine when it is below zero (F). Liquid gas stoves are relatively heavy, but that is acceptable when a dependable stove could be crucial.

The answer is "nobody knows". Well, not precisely anyway. Most of the canister manufacturers won't publish exact percentages.

From what I've read, MSR is generally a good one for colder weather. Coleman and Snow Peak less so.

HOWEVER, if you're talking about temps below 15F, then forget any brand of canister with an upright canister stove. If, as one poster suggested, you're willing to buy a more specialized gas stove, one with a remote tank (i.e. the burner doesn't connect directly to the tank but rather is connected remotely via a fuel hose) and a pre-heat loop, you can go colder, at least down to 0F, maybe down to -5F. If you saw my post on the Coleman Xtreme, that's worth looking into. The Coleman Xtreme uses a higher propane content fuel and is rated down -4F, although I've seen posts of people using it down to -10F.

If you're thinking of just using a regular canister stove and just getting a better brand of gas, for those temperatures that won't work. You have to either get a specialized gas stove or switch to liquid fuel.

Liquid fuel, by the way, will work at far lower temperatures than any blended fuel gas stove. Arctic/Antarctic expeditions to this day use liquid fueled stoves. If you're heading out in really seriously low temps, liquid fuel is the way to go.

HJ

I was hoping to stay as compact as possible. If I take a remote feed gas stove I might as well take my Primus omnifuel with liquid fuel.

Thanks for the replies, seems I'll have to look at some other options for cold weather compact stove, maybe solid fuel tabs?

The very traditional SVEA 123 and similar models are quite compact, having about the same profile as a canister stove like the Pocket Rocket. Due to the brass tank, they are heavier, but you have a compact unit with its own self contained fuel supply. You will need a pot support and windscreen. Carry additional fuel in a separate container if you wish.

I have never tried Esbit tablets in really cold weather; I am a bit skeptical about their value in that situation.

for the temps that you are talking about,10 or so below F i don't think you will find any off the shelf Gaz stove that would work without adding heat exchange gizmos to warm the fuel.i have see Gaz stoves that had a heavy wire wrapped around the cart that was exposed to the flame at one end and warmed the cart to keep the fuel working plus a cozy of some sort around and under it.

MSR Reactor stove has a pressure valve you get every ounce out of it, it works at high altitudes, is very efficient and works in very cold temperatures.

The limitations of cannister stoves in cold weather are well known. You might get away with a cannister stove if you baby it. For casual use, it might work for you; but for life-or-death, it's pretty dicey. Liquid fuel is the choice for reliability.

When I had a Svea, I'd pack a little square of 1/4 inch plywood to set it on. It kept things stable in snow, and provided enough insulation to keep the tank warm. Perhaps that might help with a cannister stove?

Here are some real-world reviews, including cold weather use, of the MSR Pocket Rocket from Mountain Equipment Co-op customers. Mostly, they echo the comments posted above. They suggest a range of cold-weather tricks, including keeping the cannister inside your jacket, laying on hands to warm it during operation, and putting the cannister in a small pan of warm water.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441932337&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302696549

+1 on the limitations of the different gas mixtures and the difference on "liquid feed" and "gazified feed" operation. I use a trangia gas burner that is purposedly made to replace the alcohol burner. Liquid feed + one of the best wind screens available = succes!!



One particular trick is thick copper wire. Loop it around the canister and leave just enough wire so you can stick it into the fire. (The wire, not the canister).

Another trick with flexible fuel lines is to put the canister inside the pot you're heating. Only works if the fuel line is long enough.

Esbit in my experience has a relatively weak flame. For melting snow, I wouldn't recommend although for emergency use, maybe it has some value.

The Svea is kinda heavy, but it does the job. You can get a mini pump for it which helps get it going in cold weather.

Seriously though, if you've got an Omnifuel, it doesn't get much better than that. You can run it in inverted canister mode for intermediate cold weather and with liquid fuel in seriously cold weather.

I don't know that there's a "magic bullet" out there of a compact, light stove for cold weather use. Maybe the Borde stove, but they're tough to find and have their drawbacks.

HJ

The "wire in the flame" trick does work, but it could be dangerous. Too much heat feedback and the canister could explode. I'm not saying "never, never, never," but know what the risks are. Use the "ouch test" frequently. If you touch the canister with your bare hand and you say "ouch," shut 'er down quick.

Be aware also that if your canister is on the edge of overheating and your pot boils over, KABOOM!

I've not tried it personally, but the "wire in the flame" trick is fairly well known. Just be freaking careful.

HJ

The MSR Reactor is the hottest thing out there. It boils ultra fast, but it is neither light nor compact.

The Reactor, high tech as it is, is still subject to the laws of physics. Get things cold enough, and the Reactor will die just like the rest of them.

However, there's one other factor: altitude. The higher you go, the lower the surrounding pressure. Just as water boils at a lower and lower temperature the higher you climb, so also will LPG vaporize (boil) at a lower and lower temperature. That's why you'll hear mountaineers report good results with a Reactor even in cold weather.

What's the exact amount of elevation that one has to gain to offset a one degree reduction in temperature? I don't know. Anyone with a physics or chemistry degree care to chime in here? Personally, I wouldn't go out in cold weather at high elevation unless I were absolutely sure my stove were up to the task.

HJ

My understanding is that canister stoves have been used satisfactorily at high altitudes (Himalayas) for years.

Yep. Even some of the old Bluet stoves worked way up high, and they were 100% butane which turns to liquid at 31F/-0.5C. If you're going to be above 26,000' (8000m), feel free to use your canister stove.

Wish I could give you a formula as to how cold you can go at a given altitude. I saw a chart showing the relationship between temperature and altitude for gas canisters once in an old copy of "Off Belay" magazine. Maybe I can find a copy and post that.

HJ

The original plan was for something to store in backpack while ski in relatively remote locations, so unfortunately omnifuel is too big and heavy for the small pack I will have.

Get you a bigger pack bro.

In all seriousness, I have been blogging about light weight four season stoves lately: http://AdventuresInStoving.blogspot.com

The first two entries in January wouldn't apply to what you need, but the second two would. I have two more such posts yet to go: the Wind Pro and the Borde stove. You'll see a schedule on the blog. If the latter posts, once they're all up are all too large or too heavy, then plan to go without a stove. In other words, you're not going to get much lighter or more compact for four season use than what I'm posting unless you want some one off custom stuff. I've seen some very nice custom stuff with precision machining and milling, but that kind of stuff is way over my head.

HJ

Thanks, I'm checking out your blog now.

I think I'll just bring my pocket rocket and a MSR canister some day and see how it works. Worst come I can always saw down a few dead treed and make a fire.

If you keep the canister warm, I understand you should be OK. No personal experience. Although the PR is the stove I use the most now, I don't think I have ever used it in below freezing conditions.

True, but the Devil's in the details as they say. How to keep the canister warm in some pretty cold weather (below 15F/-9C per the original post). There are tricks, but it gets increasingly tough. Of course, on the other hand, tricks that would be tantamount to applying for a Darwin Award in warmer weather start to make sense in cold weather of the type we're describing.

The original poster's idea of just taking his PR out and trying it is a good one. He's got a few tips and tricks, so he may be able to get her to go.

HJ

Good idea. Experience trumps all.

I'd be very curious as to what you come up with. Know the risks, use your head, and try different tricks accompanied by the "ouch test", and you should be fine.

HJ

This brings to mind a great line from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" - "It looks dangerous; you go first."

I never said that. Not exactly. lol

HJ

No, but I think I did...Something like "Neat idea! Should be OK. Go out and try it and get back to us with the results..."

I don't have my handbook of Chem and Physics here, so I can't put together the formula for boiling point depression, but I was able to verify Craig Connally's numbers in "The Mountaineering Handbook" that butane boils at -11C at 3000 m(10,000 feet) and at -19C at 7,000 m.

I have used my Pocket Rocket w/ MSR fuel down to 0C or so, but at 10,000 feet. The 123 worked OK down to -15C or so, but I had a pump. Below that I have always used my XGK.

Respectfully,

Jerry

[quote=jzmtlThe original plan was for something to store in backpack while ski in relatively remote locations, so unfortunately omnifuel is too big and heavy for the small pack I will have. [/quote]

If your pack is that small, can you carry all the equipment that should be carried to ski in remote locations? That requires enough equipment for a light overnight in my book! The weight penalty of a light fuel stove is not much.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Here is the chart that I spoke of earlier. It shows the vaporization point of n-butane and isobutane as elevation and temperature vary.



I think you can see why mountaineers were successfully using canister gas stoves on Mt. Everest even though it was quite cold.

HJ

Not THAT remote lol. I'm not good enough to consider blaze my own trail in back country skiing yet. This is more for if a blizzard comes up and can't get off the mountain for a few hours or maybe a day sort of thing (has happened to someone I know).

I have used a MSR Pocket Rocket stove down to about -10C with no problems. The secret as others have posted is to keep the cannister warm. Also when using the stove, keep the cannister directly off the cold ground. I use a small piece of Polar fleece for this which is also big enough to wrap around the fuel cannister. A windscreen also helps (as with almost any stove.)

[quote=jzmtl
Not THAT remote lol. I'm not good enough to consider blaze my own trail in back country skiing yet. This is more for if a blizzard comes up and can't get off the mountain for a few hours or maybe a day sort of thing (has happened to someone I know). [/quote]

If you might have to stay out all night it is THAT remote.

Having spent nights in that kind of weather without a full camp, I would want at least shelter and additional insulation (I often carried an elephant foot bag and my parka). Less than that can mean a very uncomfortable night!

Respectfully,

Jerry

I have a Primus clip on windscreen and it fits great on pocket rocket, and take almost no additional space when inverted on a fuel canister.



Everything add together is just a bit too much to carry for "just in case" though, at least for now. Up here there are tons of evergreen trees, I'm sure I could rig something up if it comes down to that, always have a knife and saw on me when I'm outdoors.

OK, here's something I wrote up for a friend. These are rules of thumb, so if you see something that doesn't apply in some circumstance, you're probably right.

Typical backpacking type fuel canisters consist of three gasses: butane, isobutane, and propane.

Each of these fuels vaporizes at a different temperature: butane at 31F (-0.5C), isobutane at 11F (-11.7C), and propane at -44F (-42.1C). If you deliver the fuel as a gas, it has to vaporize before it reaches the burner. If the outside temperature is lower than the vaporization point (boiling point) of your fuel, your fuel won't vaporize (it'll stay liquid), and your stove ceases to function. You can shake your canister and hear fuel sloshing around, but your stove is, quite literally, out of gas.

As the temperature declines and you pass each one of those vaporization points, you lose one of the components of your pressure and as the canister empties you also lose pressure just from the reduced amount of fuel. Also, because propane has the lowest vaporization point, it has the highest pressure and burns off faster than the rest. In other words, in cold weather your best fuel gets used first, and only your lower performing fuels are left toward the end.

All three of these things contribute to "canister fade," increasingly reduced efficacy as the canister approaches empty.

You've got a few choices:
1. Keep the canister warm, but you'll still have canister fade toward the end, and in really cold weather, keeping the canister warm is either difficult or dangerous (depending on the technique employed).
2. Switch to a liquid feed gas stove. You're still using the same three fuels (butane, isobutane, and propane), but they're fed in as a liquid, and the burner is doing the vaporization, so the outside temperature isn't as big of a deal.
3. Go with liquid fuel (white gasoline or kerosene).

Here's Hikin' Jim's general temperature range recommendations:
40+ F Gas, Liquid Feed Gas, or Liquid Fuel will all work well.
30F - 40F Gas, Liquid Feed Gas, or Liquid Fuel will all still work, but you're going to start to notice degraded performance on gas.
20F - 30F Gas, Liquid Feed Gas, or Liquid Fuel will all still work, but you're going to notice degraded performance and you're going to have to use tricks on gas with many gas brands toward the low end of the temperature range.
10F - 20F You're getting below where regular gas stoves operate. If you're headed out in this kind of weather, do your self a favor and upgrade to a different type of stove. Yeah, if you fiddle with it enough, you can get your regular gas stove to work, but basic tricks don't work well down this low, and more advanced tricks are dangerous. Dangerous as in severe injury or death.
0F - 10FThis is simply below the operational range of ordinary gas stoves. This is where liquid feed or liquid fueled stoves rule the day.
-10F - 0FNo way in heck on regular gas stoves. Even liquid feed gas stoves can have trouble as you approach -10F. Specialized liquid feed gas stoves like the Coleman Xtreme will handle the cold better.
< -10F Liquid fueled stoves only.

OK, so there you have it. Those are "rules of thumb" and are a general guideline only. No guidelines can cover all circumstances and conditions. Those are guidelines that are going to work fairly well at most elevations. If you're going above 15,000', feel free to adjust the numbers as needed.

All of the above are ballpark numbers at best. So much depends on other things like wind, how you use the stove, what tricks you employ, how full is your canister, which brand of gas you're using, how sheltered a spot you're in, are you cooking in a tent or out in the open, etc.

HJ

The only time I have ever used at stove at high altitude was on Denali a "few" years ago. Everyone used liquid fuel stoves, not a canister in sight. -20F was a nice day at around 14,000 feet.

I am a fan of canister stoves, but in cold weather, if you absolutely, positively want a fire, go liquid.

Nice, concise write up. Jim, you should have it framed.

lol. Thanks.

HJ

Backpackinglight.com has a great article about winter stove and fuel use. Probably the best article on the internet about this topic. I think one must be a member to read it though.

Butane is reliable down to freezing or so, but propane/butane mixtures are good below that. The Coleman Xtreme stove uses what is probably the best canister fuel mixture for cold weather since that stove is used by some down to nearly zero degrees F. The stoves below freezing should have a remote canister with preheat tube (have not looked up and may have terminology wrong) for best results. Butane canisters kept warn and used upside down can work.