Are we raising a generation of nincompoops?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/09/27/are_we_raising_a_generation_of_nincompoops/

"Second-graders who can't tie shoes or zip jackets. Four-year-olds in Pull-Ups diapers. Five-year-olds in strollers. Teens and preteens befuddled by can openers and ice-cube trays. College kids who've never done laundry, taken a bus alone or addressed an envelope.

Are we raising a generation of nincompoops? And do we have only ourselves to blame? Or are some of these things simply the result of kids growing up with push-button technology in an era when mechanical devices are gradually being replaced by electronics?"

.....
link

There are a lot of kids around that don't meet minimum standards of age-appropriate competence. I for one work to ensure that my children, at least, will not be counted among the nincompoops.

I recently read that California used to have one of the best public school systems in the WORLD. Now, decades later, California has one of the worst public school systems. What happened?

While I agree somewhat with the article's conclusions, how many of have all the skills and abilities of our parents? Or think of it this way, how many of your parent's skills are obsolete now?

That being said, we are trying to install in our kids a strong skill set including math, science and engineering. I keep thinking that someday those that understand the world will rule the world...

-Blast

Behind every nincompoop kid are nincompoop parents.

Seems every generation thinks the young'uns don't measure up in some ways.

Reading, writing, talking, listening, math, science, engineering, swimming, shooting, driving, hiking, camping, cooking, animal care, laundry, running, bicycling, budgeting, saving. Without making jokes off of Heinlein's list http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SpecializationIsForInsects, what am I missing?

I cannot overstate how much I agree with this.

In another (fake) news report I just wrote:

Fairfax, VA -
Area man Jim Johnson, 66, asks his grandson, John, age 11, to help him add a contact to his cell phone. In addition, Jim is unable to upload a video to YouTube and, despite hours of trying, his son Jack Johnson, 44, has given up trying to explain to his father how to use Skype.

"It's a shame he can't really manage to use Skype, because we'd love to do video calls with him so he can see his grandkids. He just can't seem to understand how to use it" said Jack.

"I gave pappy my iPod Touch, he didn't even know what do do with it!" said John.

Indeed, many of the technological innovations of today are simply lost on the grandparents of today. While their kids are blogging and texting and making well-edited home made videos of their kids and their grand kids are living in a state of constant awareness and continual information flow, today's grandparents simply haven't grown older - they have remained firmly stuck in a mental model of communications and technology that was passive and consumption based, not participatory and collaborative. It's not just about being unable to work the digital camera - it's not being able to conceptualize the basic workings of technology....


(I just made that up, but it kind of reminds me of this:

http://www.satirewire.com/features/siliconpines/acf.shtml

I don't have kids. However, I was a Sergeant in the Army for a while and acted in loco parentis for more than one troop.

18 y/os who:

Couldn't balance a checkbook. Didn't understand what an overdraft was, or know the bank charged them for using the ATM if it wasn't their bank.
Had no clue how to get car insurance or even register a car.
Had never applied for a job, never mind a loan.
Had no clue what it took to get married, nor clue one where the courthouse was.
Couldn't cook a simple meal (females included).
Had no clue how to do laundry, or iron.
No basic tool skills at all.
ONe young lady in particular - "I've never mowed a lawn, we had gardeners do it" "Cool, consider yourself a gardener today, now mow"

I consider those all basic life skills. I won't even get into what I considered basic field skills. Good thing we'd gone to MREs which are tear open, some of those kids couldn't have worked a P38 if they had too.

And btw, although I'm not an X gen, I can build a PC, lol.

Long gone are the days when school was like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1DtY42xEOI

Check out all the Joe90's...

I doubt that there are many 14 year olds today who were trained like myself to field strip and reassemble a Bren Light Machine Gun whilst blind folded in less than 2 minutes; probably because there isn't much call for it today. The cold war is over.



I suspect the same teenagers could probably setup their parents email clients or facebook page (whatever that is) for them though.

And there still are some teenagers who can handle themselves out in the wilds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8pCpNUIiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydNMl6jmgtw

I think it has a lot to do with a lack of emphasis placed on critical thinking skills. Teach someone to be inquisitive and the rest takes care of itself.

I`m constantly teaching my old man new things, or should I say we are constantly breaking things and learning new things together.

As far as his skills obsolete... nope.
Are they not taught in schools anymore... yep.

There's a very clear line between social classes and skills of now and skills of the `past`. How many kids brought up in nice neighborhoods have any idea how to replace a spark plug on their lawn mower, what about change a flat tire on their bike... most people now take that stuff in to get worked on. Now go to a blue collar neighborhood and look how many people can do the above, and much more.

The skills are moving to different social classes, and kids with interests such as wood working, auto mechanic, etc are looked down upon by some of todays society.

It's rather sad the "hands on" "make it yourself" etc.. type skills, and jobs are often the ones kids of today have NO interest in.

I`m not old by any means, and also not a teen but growing up we didn't have auto mechanics or wood shop offered at our high school. The JC does offer this, and many welding classes though!

Parents of today need to let their kids know it's OK to make things with your hands, and repair... the bigger problem is these parents have no understanding or interest themselves it seems.

-Todd (Who's a computer programmer as well as a metal fabricator, tractor driver, and more!)

PS: Sorry for long post/rant. I just had this same convo with someone else, and it's rather sad.

Yes
Yes (but, hell, don't blame me - I haven't procreated!)
No. It's too much baby'ing on the parts of parents, not letting their kids face real life, "protecting" them from everything (sunblock, bug spray, bike helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, car seats til 8 years old, fighting the ref so they don't have to lose a game, parks with fences, "allergies" to everything under the sun just because you saw it on TV, etc, etc, etc, etc.)

The world's superpower is falling fast from it's perch. Our rise and fall took just over 200 years. Thanks a lot, Baby Boomers. Way to raise your kids as a bunch of nincompoops.


(everything here is my opinion solely!)

I work at a place that has a summer work program for kids. One of these kids, about 18 years old, had very wealthy parents who had given him a mint fire-engine red original 1964 Ford Mustang convertible. He came up to me one day and said, "Can you help me? My car has a flat tire?" I said, "Sure, no problem. Show me."

So he took me down to the parking ramp and, sure enough, one of his tires was flat as a pancake. I helped him find his jack, spare, etc and together we changed the tire.

As it was leaning there against the rear bumper, he nodded toward the flat tire and said in complete seriousness, "What do we do now? Throw it away?"

As my wife, who has been a teacher of gifted students for 40 years always says, "Common sense is the new Gifted."

Interesting perspectives, and I think I'd like to add to the fire a little, because, although I was being a little silly with the addition of the "article" about boomers and computers.

First of all, the cult of fear that expresses itself in wanting to be "safe" is fed, managed and grown by the news media industry, which, I need not remind many here, is in business to sell advertising, not to make you feel good.

You can't get eyeballs to screens with news stories about yet another shooting in some poor urban neighborhood - that's a dog bites man story - so they constantly seek the edge cases - and they inject primal fear directly into your brain stem with the one, horrible, improbable and utterly unexpected thing that happened to a few of the 6 billion people on this earth. Maybe there was an ebola outbreak. Maybe a bridge collapsed. Maybe some new bacteria is eating the eyes out of people's heads. And even if 10,000 people are affected by New Horrible Thing, in the grand scheme of things, that's not many people, but it makes good news.

Grow up on a constant diet of new fears piped in on your 42" screens that are never off and couple that with the instinctive desire to protect your kids from harm, and you end up with kids wearing helmets to walk to the end of the driveway because once a tree branch fell and hit a kid just right and killed him.

And yet...and yet...

Fortunately, I think that the "dumbest generation" (and I like that term) is self-limiting. Yes, the USA has passed some sort of milestone of leadership in the world (we think we're #1 in so many areas - we're not when it comes to education, prevention of infant mortality, literacy, and many other measures) and we may never regain that lead (I personally think it's China's turn - again - to be The World Power).

But it's not all bleak.

I was at the Maker World Faire in New York City last week. There were tens of thousands of people there - in fact our very own Charlie was there (but I missed connecting with him) as well as many other people I connect with online.

The Maker Faire was the opposite of the safety obsessed world we live in. They had Jet Powered (valveless pulse jet) metal pony rides. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUYlC-ECS3U

Note the warning sign in the background on the right. "This Ride Will Kill You"

Note the crowd (which included me)standing close. There were plenty of people who wanted to ride.

My kids enjoyed the various things to do there, and there was no padding anywhere. There were sharp metal edges and fire-spewing canons 3' from my son's head on the human-powered carousel. There were aerial nylons suspended as a swing over asphalt - if you fall, it's gonna hurt. Some kids did fall. They bled. They got cleaned up by their parents. They went back to play. No lawyers, just band aids and new skills learned.

What I'm saying is the cult of stupidity is not as big as you think. There are plenty of people who, like us, tell their kids "if you can do it, you are allowed do it. You might get hurt. Be careful. Ask me if you're not sure what to do."

There are plenty of people who know that skinned knees and broken arms aren't typically life threatening. My son participates in speed-roller skating - you should see all the kids out there! And when they crash, it's at 18 to 25 miles per hour, they hit hard.

We don't see these kids - until they fail - and then we're all reading "what irresponsible parents" let their 16 year old sail around the world, who would let their 13 year old operate a tractor? who would let their 11 year old go on a 6 mile bike ride along the canal? who would give a 16 year old a rifle?

There are plenty of people who tell a kid "here's a rake, get to work" and there are plenty of 15 year old kids I've met at the firehouse who are able to figure stuff out.

But it seems that these kids don't excite the news media as much, so we don't see them much (although our Canoe Parade with the Canalligator was in the local paper paper !)

Anyway...it's not all bad.

I've heard similiar complaints from my Wife about the toys that are being sold for the little one today. Most of us had the proverbial "big bucket" of legos, wood blocks, tinker toys, etc. growing up. Sometimes they came with a booklet with a dozen projects in it. Now the kits are for a single project and that project only. The same thing goes for matchbox cars, dolls, etc.

The current generation has not been required to exercise imagination in their play, only to follow a given set of rules and instructions. When they encounter the proverbial "ice cube tray", they lack the skills to figure it out for themselves. Personnaly(sp?) I figured out the ice cube tray from watching Mom break the cubes loose.

I'm still workin' on the ice cube tray, but I really became an expert at squeezing that little red dot of color around through the margarine in the clear plastic bags that my mom used to buy near the dawn of history.

I bet 99% of the people here don't have a clue what I'm talkin' about. ;-)

Every generation tends to look at the kids of their day and see them as substandard. There are inscriptions from several hundred BCE that make many of the same complaints. The evidence is that no matter how weak and dumb the kids seem collectively they always do okay. If any generation had failed catastrophically across the board we wouldn't be here.

Kids tend to adapt to their situation. Situations change. The knowledge, skills and personality traits that worked for our ancestors are not the same that are vital today. The ability and willingness to work sun-to-sun tilling a field isn't so important.

Kids adapt. But also, we have adapted. We too easily forget that when we were young we were stupid and weak. Give them time. Don't underestimate them.

More than anything, what I see on a day-to-day basis is simple lack of reasoning. Whether it be deductive reasoning at figuring out how to do something without having someone personally spend an hour holding your hand or more complex things like troubleshooting or improvisation.

I spend a lot of my time at work improvising on-the-spot solutions to problems after having to troubleshoot said problems. I've seen things that would make your head spin.

Like a technician installing a device that has an adjustable address wheel that goes from 1 to 5. And he's already lost the directions, and we've never installed one like it before. I arrive to help, it's set to address 1 and it isn't working. I change the address to 2, no go, 3, no go, 4, now it works. How hard was this?

I see every day that simple tasks like changing a tire or replacing a fuse just wreck a lot of people's day. So many people just get the "deer in the headlights" look the minute anything out of the ordinary happens.

I don't think this is a generational issue. The baby boomers have plenty of technical incompetence of their own. Most of my middle-aged coworkers view a closet door off its tracks as a reason to call maintenance, rather than simply fixing the door.

I also see a complete inability to troubleshoot in some my parents' generation. I've been called to dozens of houses to power cycle a wireless router. Even after I walk them through how to unplug the router and plug it back in, fixing 90% of the problems, they still call me as soon as anything stops working.

There are definitely situations where my generation will, on average, be less equipped than the older generation. I would argue it's a matter of experience, not of ability. Our experiences have equipped us to work with different tools and at different tasks than prior generations. That's normal, and not a sign that we're all nincompoops.

Some people here have noted that every generation tends to view the kids of their generation as being substandard, and that "it's not that bad" once again in the current generation.

I beg to differ. Using objective standards, the U.S. used to be at the head of the global pack in education. That was only about 4 or 5 decades ago or so. Today, the U.S. is trailing miserably behind the world leaders in education of young people.

No, everything is not going to be OK if we continue along this path. No, it's not OK that most kids nowadays are glued to their X-boxes and Playstations, rather than playing outside and exploring. Nowadays, colleges are the new high schools, where most students don't get serious about their studies until they get to grad school. In the 1950's and 60's, it seems that college was college, not a place where kids are entitlement to get drunk and have the time of their lives while they're still young.

YOUR kids may be OK. Maybe even your little neighborhood is OK. However, on a grander scale, the U.S. has a lot of room for improvement if we want to continue to compete with the best in the world.

I was born and raised in America. I've traveled to various countries, and have lived in Japan for awhile. I describe many Americans as being smug, somewhat arrogant, and barely competent all at the same time. We are our worst enemies. I say that out of love and concern for my country.

Art in FL: "The evidence is that no matter how weak and dumb the kids seem collectively they always do okay. If any generation had failed catastrophically across the board we wouldn't be here."

I think you're wrong here. This is one whole new ballgame. There has NEVER been a generation so incredibly dependent on technology. Everything they do and everything they 'know' depends on electronics. People say they can 'build' a computer. What they're really talking about is just hooking some finished components together. They aren't 'building' anything.

Turn off the power for a week and see what happens.

JBMat was dead on. If it doesn't involve electronics, most kids are crippled. Many of them are fundamentally illiterate. They can barely read, it's agony to compose a basic sentence, they can't do basic math without a calculator. Besides the sign-up bonuses offered, the main attraction of joining the military seems to be that they will have another mommy to tell them what to do and when to do it. They still don't really have to think.

They have no work ethic at all. They'll make a token effort at a job (offered $10/hr) and then just walk away.

They don't know how to figure things out using their own brain. It isn't that they can't get it exact, they aren't even in the ballpark.

They can't make change. I gave a young clerk a ten and a one for a $6 item. She didn't know what to do and had to call a manager.

They are so used to having everything done for them, I have a young rail conductor who refuses to lock the railroad gate behind us as we leave the railroad property. It doesn't have anything to do directly with his train, so he feels that it isn't his job.

I hurt my thumb and was having trouble gripping things. I asked the boy across the street (10) how much he would charge to fill in the 24"x12" hole with the loose soil piled right beside the hole. He wanted $20, which would have worked out to about $80/hr.

My sister nearly got killed a few days ago when a couple of teenage girls drove through the freeway center divider (for emergency vehicles, signed "do not enter") and made a U-turn into the fast lane of I-5 at 5:30p.m. and dodged right into traffic... with a stick shift. My sister said they nearly caused a 10-car, 2-semi wreck, and they were laughing all the way.

Not only do the rules of the road not apply to them, they think the laws of PHYSICS don't apply to them.

And what about the lying parents and grandparents who keep insisting that their kid/grandkid wouldn't steal gas, doesn't scream up and down the street on 4-wheelers or motorcycles, doesn't mow down the neighbors' plants with their truck? How do they think this is helping?

And their sense of entitlement is approximately the size of the Milky Way. If it isn't given as an expected gift, and whining and screaming doesn't get it, they'll just steal it from someone else, or shoplift it.

Have you read anything they've written? It's all written like they text, a 500-word run-on sentence. Between the abbreviations and the misspellings, it makes no sense at all.

The bottom line is that if all the people who do all the caretaking and all the real work simply vanished, the Nincompoop Generation would probably die off. If you've read The Disappearance by Philip Wylie, you'll know what I mean.

Sue

I've been to other countries as well and I have to admit your assessment of "smug, somewhat arrogant, and barely competent" is sadly true. When you meet a young Finn in Helsinki and he can name the capitals - and governors - of all 50 US states - you really wonder about folks in the USA who can't locate the USA on a map.

Jay Leno's questions to people on the street about

The Fourth of July.

Classic Leno -- the grand-dad at the end had no problem because the questions were easy. Parents, talk to your school boards and get rid of the teacher's unions. . . they are not helping educate our kids.

There's truth to what you're saying, but there's a lot of other good points in this thread. I really think today's kids are dumbing down, though, just like others have noted. My mom is a teacher, has been for the last 25+ years. Some of the answers she gets on her quizzes are ridiculous. But the problem is, EVERYONE had ridiculous answers. I think of the 30 or so quizzes I helped her grade, 1 had a 100% (5 questions, several multi-section, fill in the blank type). Maybe 5 had in the 50-100% range, and the rest were just flat out wrong. How can you teach when you have to fail entire classes?

I work as a doc in the military, and one of my jobs is physicals - there are forms where you need to explain any illnesses. Now granted, medical terminology isn't a strong suit for most folks, but I see often people spelling things wrong, to the point where I don't know what they're saying. One genius even spelled the same word three different ways, on the same page of paper (regular English too, not medical). One of my corpsman is more interested in reading online comics - I've told him at least 4 times in the last 3 days to write the room number on the chart so I can go to the right room. He can barely take vitals if the machine doesn't. I've already spoken to his chain of command, but he's totally incompetent in the very basics of being a corpsman in a clinic. I'd hate to see him under fire overseas.

Am I the world's greatest at anything? Far from it. I don't know crap about cars, but I've been tinkering with my truck. I bought a house a few years back, then went to Home Depot to buy their home repair book. I can't fix my computer either when it's wrong, but I can work it well enough for what I do, I can trouble shoot the basics, and I can follow directions if neede. I realize I need to work to get somewhere in life (but then again, I spent 10 years in college)

It's not about 'skill sets' or generational knowledge. Yes, true, I don't know how to use a slide rule like my dad does, but I don't need to. I can do math in my head or on paper if my phone, computer and calculator all die simultaneously. I can find north without a compass. I may not be able to till a field or milk a cow, but I know that cows make milk and could figure it out, I know seeds need to be in dirt and get water, so I could figure it out. At 32, I feel like I just barely squeezed into the generation where common sense was still a common attribute. Middle-late 20 year olds are (I think) on whole a lot ditzier than me. A lot of times I feel like I didn't learn something, but at least I know where to go to figure it out (library, Dewey decimal, card files) if the internet suddenly crashed. I know what puncuation is.

Susan,

As a 25-yr plus veteran and retired Air Force guy, hence an insider's perspective, I take small issue with the statement about the kids joining the military so that they can have another mommy. Many of the kids join for the aforementioned bonuses and education benefits; initially. I agree it is rather mercenary, but that is the fact. What happens with many is that they find a sense of purpose to being part of something larger than themselves. They really enjoy what they do. Those that don't usually end up getting out and bad-mouthing the military the rest of their lives because they "didn't like being told what to do". That ends the mommy argument. What they soon realize is that they will live their lives "answerin' to the man" in some way or another.

I still like you.

YMMV

My $.02

ireckon:

I've talked to enough of my parents' generation to know that drinking on campus wasn't invented 20 years ago. After all, Animal House was released in 1978! Some of my peers are more focused on drinking and parties, but the majority of us are concentrating on our degrees and future careers.

Our educational system does have room for improvement. Personally, I think we need far fewer standardized tests and much greater independence for teachers. Then we need to fire the teachers who can't actually teach.

NY never had margerine dye laws, so I never got to experience that until I went visiting out of state

I've just started a new job 3 weeks ago, and I'm the "Old Man" - by a lot - next nearest in age is 7 years younger, and he's NOT a programmer, but a desktop support guy

I've been asked to mentor these guys, so we have a Friday afternoon show and tell - I watched all but 1-2 people's eyes glaze over not caring, when I'm showing them a short method that will save them HOURS of work later. They are Mid 20somethings and younger, and don't seem to CARE about learning their chosen field of employment - they are 20+ years younger

That sums it up. Watch it to the end.

KG2V:

Hold a mandatory meeting for ANY age range, and the majority of people will mentally check out before the meeting even begins. It's the usual 80/20 rule: 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people.


As far as the Jay Leno video is concerned, if you put people under pressure, they tend to forget things and fumble around with the answer. Then you can select which scenes to include for greatest comedic effect. The people who answer the questions correctly aren't included in the final product, so of course the average person in the final product appears stupid.

Jay Leno asks mostly political questions that anyone should know. He also gives hints, ruling out shyness as an excuse. Certainly the ones who rattle off the correct answers are screened out for entertainments sake, but the fact remains that a large segment of the population younger than the Baby Boomers is clueless. They cannot write in the names of most of the states on a blank map, cannot name the three branches of government, cannot name more than two or three of the amendments, and don't know what the Bill of Rights is. They cannot name pivotal events in our recent history or name key politicians like Vice President, and cannot even identify pictures of cabinet members. When I was in gradeschool and highschool. this material was drilled in and we all knew it. I don't blame the younger people, they have been dumbed-down regarding their rights and obligations as citizens on purpose by the government schools. Makes for a more docile population, and encourages an elite political class and 'rock-star' elections. Don't kid yourself, the problem is real.

Also, not that I have anything against my fine southern neighbors. Over the years I learned never to ask younger Americans where they think Canada is. The answers I have received will simply and utterly astound you....

So, for a long while, we didn't participate in our local public school system. We had our reasons, many of which were based on our own experiences in the broken school system. We home schooled, we went to alternative schools. We recently put my kids in the local public schools and now I know why people move to my school district. Now I know why a nearby community has been in court for 20 YEARS trying to get their kids into my school district. I've been bragging on my kids here for a while, but now I'll have to add in my kid's schools too. I had no idea - none - what it means to be in a school system that's mostly working.

There's these tests, and our schools just keep out scoring the rest of Pennsylvania - sometimes to an absurd degree - for example, there's this one test on science and statewide, the average school score was 74, but at our school it's 100.

Math is the same way. We're scoring consistently in the 90th percentile and higher. Reading - really any of it.

So my perspective is clouded by being in a wealthy school district with high performing schools.

My workplace is also full of high-performance people. It's intense, it's hard, it's mentally challenging. We have no openings for people who can't keep up - and as a result, in the depths of a massive recession, we can't staff up fast enough.

How to store food! I don't even mean advanced techniques like canning or drying -- just how to use a refrigerator or cooler, pack a lunch, or put away leftovers without poisoning yourself or others. Sigh.

ICK! hahaha! I left a slice of supreme pizza out in its box overnight... my 16 year old asked the next day if they could eat it for lunch!! ugh.

Same kiddo did not know how to put a key on to a key ring, and was unsure of where to put the "TO" address on an envelope.

*sigh*

It's very frustrating sometimes, to look at things that we view as common sense, and seeing them struggle with it.

[/quote] Also, not that I have anything against my fine southern neighbors. Over the years I learned never to ask younger Americans where they think Canada is. The answers I have received will simply and utterly astound you.... [/quote]

Don't be ridiculous. They all know Canada is somewhere near France, the birthplace of Hockey. All the Canadian players have Francy-sounding names, and Wheaties boxes there have Franchish writing on the back...

I don't think its just the younger Americans, it could even be Presidential Candidates.

BTW Congratulations on the preservation of Canadian National Igloo and Canada finally modernising your time keeping and going from the 20hr to the 24hr clock

"I had no idea - none - what it means to be in a school system that's mostly working."

School systems work only if the parents INSIST that they do. There was an incident in FL some years ago where the parents DEMANDED that the schools change from the insane see/say method of teaching reading to phonics/phonetics. Schools in Israel changed to the American method of teaching reading for three years and then the parents were SCREAMING to change back to the sensible method of phonetics.

But the US has been using the see/say method for generations, and the parents who were raised on it see no need for change -- after all, how would they know any difference when THEY can barely read? I read somewhere that 30% of Americans can't understand the instructions on a prescription label. That's beyond pathetic, it's criminal.

And schools that can't even teach kids to read certainly aren't going to teach them how to THINK. I guess "it's not their job".

Sue

MoBOB: "I take small issue with the statement about the kids joining the military so that they can have another mommy... What happens with many is that they find a sense of purpose to being part of something larger than themselves."

And here I thought it was because they couldn't even find a job at a burger joint, and Mom and Dad refused to support them anymore!

Over half the rail crews I haul around are ex-military, maybe even closer to three-quarters. I asked why that was, and the answer I get repeatedly is... "Because we've been taught to take orders and do as we're told".

Okay, you're military -- do you know what the modern word for "cannon fodder" is? I've asked my guys, and they don't know, they said they think it is still the phrase in use. Any idea?

Sue

If kids today are nincompoops it shouldn't be a mystery- look at their idiot parents. You've got a lot of people today that think Glen Beck is a scientist, evolution is a myth and global warming is an "industry." What's next, digging up Galileo and burning his bones? Forget the kids- the adults of today might be the dumbest, most ignorant generation to ever blight our planet.

A good term to replace nincompoops - which is a slang for Non-Commissioned Officer (Sergeant) is from one of the latest GEICO commercials; jackwagon. I had never heard that term in my life but I knew exactly what he was saying and meaning. I nearly fell out of chair every time I heard it.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled topic.

My $.02

I don't necessarily agree that the adults are "most ignorant generation [...] ever" ... unless I'm forced to listen to talk radio.

I will say the adults have largely failed the younger generations.

Henry Ford's job specialization and automation have largely removed training from the employment experience. Back in the 60s working at a burger shop came with training. There were skills associated with manually operating a fryer, a grill, running the cash register. Now the skills are gone. The fryer and grill are self regulating and all you have to manage are a few very basic operations. The machinery takes out all the judgment and skill. Used to be the cashier made little more every hour because they were handling money, making change, maintaining a drawer. Now it is all automated. You don't even have to know how to make change. The machine figures it all about and dispenses the proper change.

A kid can work at Micky-Ds for years and leave with no added skill. The company doesn't invest in their worker. And in return the kids know they are replaceable. Their lack of dedication and loyalty is, IMHO, largely a result of this.

Even major corporations have shifted away from investing in their employees. I worked for one where everybody in HR was an 'independent contractor'. They had no benefits and could be fired at will. They produce and shuffled a lot of paper to look productive but about 90% of it was CYA, responsibility shifting, useless. Actual productivity was poor.

Parents have stopped coaching and counseling their kids. Not entirely surprising or entirely their fault. When you work 80 hours a week in a dirt job, with no benefits, it is hard to muster the energy to fit in the necessary 'quality time'. So much of the parenting and training end up coming from school and TV.

Parents are often too busy. Stretched too thin. They don't have time to read, so they don't have newspapers, magazines, books around the house. And if the kids don't see their parents reading, and aren't exposed to books, they don't pick up the habit. Most of those kids will find school much more difficult.

People blame the schools but they have the kids for only thirty hours a week, about 18% of the time. And the amount of information they are required to teach has increased every year. Sex education is necessary, but so is health, and hygiene, and avoidance of sexual abuse, and fire drills, and standardized testing and ... You get the idea. It wasn't a grand plot to undermine democracy that killed civics classes. It was the time it takes to teach increasingly lengthy and complex core courses to all comers as required by law. Public schools have to provide an education to kids with every disability and deficit.

If a kid shows up speaking only Swahili the school has to provide lessons in Swahili. If the kid is dyslexic the special trainers have to be provided. If the child is emotionally unstable; common for FAS, children of drug addicted parents, general child neglect; the school has to accommodate it. Unlike charter schools, which can always find a handy way to exclude the kids who will be too expensive to educate, the public schools have to teach every child that shows up. Special needs kids take up more of a teacher's time.

Because of all this, and other requirements, busing isn't free, money is always short. There aren't enough teachers. Schoolhouses deteriorate as budgets are cut in poor districts.

The popular thing to do is to blame the teachers, and their unions, but most teachers work 12 and 16 hour days, pay for basic classroom supplies (stuff kids used to bring with them) out of their own pockets, get blamed for problems that often start at home, and regularly get threatened and abused when they try to get involved.

I've met a teacher who was a cop. After retiring he became a teacher. He says his second career is the harder one. With longer hours and more danger. His pay is less and if it wasn't for his retirement pay and health benefits, holdovers from his police days, he couldn't afford to be a teacher.

Kids need coaches and mentors and they aren't getting them. They need people who will train them for and at work. Given the general level of neglect and the constant need to bootstrap themselves through the troubles of childhood it is a wonder that they have done as well as they have.

Fixed a couple of spelling/structure errors. Added a couple of sentences to clarify points.

I don't disagree with you at all, Art. I merely want to point out that these kids aren't just stupid and worthless in a vacuum; we can't say "Gee, how did that happen?" And like most issues, the solutions are elusive, and no quick fixes are in evidence. Yes, my generation and the ones that came before have failed our children and we've failed ourselves. Unfortunately I expect the burden will fall disproportionally on them. Especially since we seem to collectively lack the will and wisdom to even attempt to fix things.

Could we clarify who we're speaking of? Is it all of us born after, say, 1985 or 1990 that have no work ethic and are universally lazy and ignorant?

I can think of many people both younger and older than I who suffer from the same issues so I don't think its just a generational thing.
The other side of the schooling coin is since I've taught my kids well at home they are bored in school due to haveing to learn and the pace of the slowest in the class. I went to college with others who suffered from the same fate, got terrible grades in school due to boredom, they were very smart, one guy was doing everything from pirating software to building tesla coils to pipe bombs, but would get bad grades in programmins, electronics or chemistry classes. As we try to make everyone conform to the same standard and learn at the same pace your going to have that problem.
And now there is so much political crap shoved into the schools, like someone mentioned above, the theory of evolution is no loger taught as a theory, even though it can't be proven, its taught as fact so ow our kids learn "facts" without basis, reasoning or proof and start to blindly believe anything taught without question.

Sorry to disagree but I believe in personal responsibility, not blaming others including parents, schools, friends, etc. for the failing of the individual. There are just too many opportunities available to blame others. There are kids who come from the worst families, poorest schools, crime-ridden neighborhoods and are subjected to intense negative peer pressure, who arise and decide to make something of themselves. Our military is full of well trained, disciplined and intelligent young persons, many of which came from the above conditions and who by many were written off as nincompoops.

Yes, many of every generation fail to take advantage of the opportunities and succumb to the “easy way” only later to be held accountable by some event in their life. We all (the generic all) have life a little easier than generations before, due to their sacrifices and desire to impart a better life for future generations. Do I disagree that there are parents out there who do a disservice to their children by pampering and babying their children, of course not, there are many, perhaps too many. However, there are just as many parents who are trying to do the right thing and still have children who refuse to accept their responsibility to be self-reliant and productive individuals.

Just my 2 cents-
Pete

I am just curious - what did our parents and grandparents think of the current generations of adults? Would/are they questioning our work ethic, our habits, our priorities in life?
They went through the depression and 2 world wars and heavy changes to industrialization of society, things that most of us never experienced. Do we save for a rainy day like they did?

My point is - be careful about how you rag on the younger generations and over generalization about an entire generation based on limited personal experience. It can be a matter of perspective as well as a matter of reality that the younger generations are less capable in some ways.

Pop sociology. Generational generalities aren't very edifying or useful. "Experts" can't even agree on when one generation ends and the next begins. My sister had very different perspective and memories (or lack of) of significant events we both experienced and she's only four years younger.

Generation Z (born since 2000)
Generation Y (born late 70s or 82-1999)
Generation X (born 1961 or 65-86, opinion varies on when the Boom ended)
Baby Boomer (born 1946-61 or 64)
Silent Generation (born 1925-45)
Greatest Generation (born 1901-24)
Lost Generation (fought in WW I)

Big societal events are an interesting demarcation. The Boomers who were in their late-teens and 20s (and subject to the draft) during the Vietnam War were impacted differently than the Boomers who were 10 years old at the height of the war. The Boomers who were 28 during Watergate were affected differently than the Boomers who were 12.

The Korean War began five years after World War II -- yet different experiences for the combatants and the entire nation (no rationing during the Korean War). World War I was a different experience from WWII, for the combatants and U.S. civilians.

I graduated high school after the draft ended. Subsequent wars no longer included worry among those of draft age that they would be drafted to fight in it or worry on the part of their loved ones. Good or bad, lack of the draft has made the last thirty years of wars a different experience for the generations of "draft age" and their families.

Economic events and trends can have profound effects on psyche, depending on the age and circumstance of those experiencing them. The 1930s Great Depression had a life-long impact on the behavior and psychology of my grandparents. The 1970s stagflation and energy crises (even-odd days of rationing) were seared into my psyche (I was making minimum wage when the 1979 Iranian Oil Crisis occurred and gas price doubled in a year). The 21% prime interest rate and the 13% inflation rate of 1980 and the '81-'82 recession are vivid still as my family and I were affected.

Prior to the 2008 financial meltdown several of my peers and I used to discuss how today's 20 and 30-somethings had no memory of the last severe recession ('81-'82) and the economic hardships of the 1970s.

Those in today's job market won't soon forget the current downturn.

Those who were 20 on 9/11/01 will forever be impacted differently than those who were 10 (those who lost a loved one that day will obviously forever have a unique take on it).

Do kids still do civil defense drills ("duck-and-cover") in school?

I'd be interested in a discussion of life-shaping events that the entire society experienced and how those impacted people of different ages.

Dagny, don't be to sure about how ten year olds remember 9/11. I was twelve years old myself when it happend and I'm British too. But I can remeber watching the footage of the first plane going in and seeing the second plane going in live, those images will forever remain clear to me as I realized just what had happened and the likely death toll. I think this further emphasizes your point on persective changing how generations are viewed and view themselves

I don't presume to know how anyone remembers anything but this thread is about generalizing and 20 year olds, generally-speaking (especially those who read news reports), have a different take on things than 10 year olds.

Those of us who were in DC and NYC that day were having a different experience than those who weren't. Those who were Americans were having a different experience than those who are not. One thing just about everyone who was a sentient being and had a TV on that day has in common is that they will never forget where they were when it happened.

(BTW, among the most vivid and heartwarming memories for me of that time was the outpouring of concern and support in England, including the St. Paul's service.)

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/food_travel_uk/80132

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=1960

A friend who was born in 1951 recently toured the Texas School Book Depository and Dealey Plaza in Dallas (site of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963). She said it was striking how people of different ages responded to the museum tour. Older people of many nationalities were visibly moved, younger people were not. It was surprisingly emotional for my friend.

Which goes back to your point. She was just 12 and remembers the assassination vividly. She also was among the millions who watched the subsequent live-on-TV assassination of the assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald. She has said it was a terrifying time to live through, at least for her.

My parents and grandparents often spoke of the tension during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. They lived in Los Angeles and said the groceries were cleaned out because there was widespread concern that we were on the precipice of nuclear war.

I've seen the black-and-white broadcasts of President Kennedy's national address during that crisis but don't presume to know what it must have been like to be a parent with small kids watching that unfold. I hope never to watch a president in the future make such an announcement. Doubtful I'd ever forget it!

While we are arguing about whether our current generation is putting us all in the crapper, there is a group of human beings (who shall remain nameless, but there's a whole lot of them, they come from a very big Eastern country with a whole bunch of Dynasties, there's a lot of restaurants associated with their style of food, they give you leftovers in a cute white little folded box sometimes with a metal bail, invented gunpowder and fireworks (yah!), built a very large and longlasting wall, invented paper and ink, used to be associated with making cheap knick-knacks sold in gift shops but now are associated with making top quality high tech devices including spy satellites, etc etc) who put incredibly high value on education, generally make certain their kids perform at or near the top of their classes, frequently hold jobs in highly technical positions involving computers, biomedical sciences, and electronics; and who we may all be working for before you can say "Jack RobinWu".

I jokingly said something along this line to one of my young female colleagues from this country the other day, mentioning something like 20 years as the expected timetable for this turnover, and she said back to me in complete seriousness, "No, 5 years."

Interesting that you cite the military as an opportunity because the military is one of the few organizations that still will take the majority of people who show up without a large number of requirements or preconditions. The entry minimums have risen but, partly as requirement for the optional re-institution of the draft, an eventuality that has to left open, there is still an underlying ethic that 'there are no bad privates'. As an exercise in institutional adaptability and 'can-do spirit', they take what comes and make the best of it.

Which makes the point very well. While it is useful to instill a sense of self-reliance and responsibility in individuals it is also necessary to demand the same from corporations, businesses, organizations.

Organization that use, but do not improve or train employees, and businesses that do not provide benefits, are strip-mining the population. They are extracting the best and brightest but then, once the person is used up, as soon as anything is required in return, they are dropped like toxic waste.

No generalities here, America is well behind in STEM (science, technology, engineering & math) education. I recently saw on CNN that America is ranked 27 out of the 30 top countries in STEM education. (I can't find the link but the info is out there somewhere.)

Ho-hum, who cares, right?

Well, I care. I personally think that stat is a big freakin' deal because America use to be the runaway leader in STEM education. I believe that stat is a reflection of the many people in America who feel a sense of entitlement to remain smug, cocky and barely competent. India, China and other countries are kicking America's ass in STEM education. Let's not sugar coat it and pretend like everything is going to be OK. If we continue along this path, America is going to be entirely OWNED by the world's leaders in STEM. We almost are already.

Perhaps more than ever, we need OUR OWN people who know how to rebuild our infrastructure, build bridges, operate the power grid, etc. We also need the rest of America to understand the value of such skills. I have nothing against industries like entertainment, art, music, fashion, etc. We all need our entertainment. However, America can't sustain itself if too many people want to be the next Oprah, sell novels, appear on the next reality TV show, etc.

I'm confident that, when Oprah is elected president, all will be set right. ;-)

Regarding the idea of allowing creativity in education, I'm fine with NOT formally including creativity as part of the curriculum. We have a limited number of resources. Creativity can be developed naturally at home and on the playground. Kids should be encouraged to do so. I'm NOT talking about getting rid of classes like music. I'm talking about ensuring that kids are, for example, being taught music theory in their music classes and being tested on it.

I personally don't respect somebody's creativity, unless that person first knows the rules and then respectfully ventures from those rules. I draw the analogy to music. You can't be a great musician until you understand and appreciate what was there before you showed up on the scene. You may be a naturally gifted musician, but you can't be great until you understand the rules and history of your art form.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most kids naturally have a problem with following simple instructions. Adults have the responsibility of teaching the rules. Kids will be creative naturally and don't need much help from us there.

I see there have been no posts on this thread in almost the last 24 hours. Please, let's not let this thread die. As an old f__t, I love complaining about the younger generation.

In order to pep things up, I would like to relay the latest Nincompoop News. I am spending quite a lot of time (a LOT of time) working with a young-ish person helping them with a slight problem they have--nothing insurmountable, just a temporary disability. Coincidentally, I also helped her father with the same problem several years ago. So I said, "Where do you work?" She said, "Oh, I'm the ______ Director at the ____ County _______ Office." I said, "Oh, really?! You know, I've always wanted one of their T-shirts or a baseball cap!"

To which she replied, "Well, you can go online and buy one then."

So, I then said, "OK, thanks for that info. Say, I wonder if there's a chance I could get a little tour over there sometime?" To which she replied, "I'll give you the number of the place to call and you can see if you can schedule that."

I think you're onto something here. It always amazes me how my kids are ready to apply creative solutions to problems that don't exist instead of just going with the flow. I find myself saying "Ya know, if you just did that the way you're suppposed to it might just work." "Ya know, if you used that thing the way it's intended it would probably make things easier." etc. etc. etc. It's almost as if they don't think they're smart unless they invent/create/discover EVERYTHING on their own.

So yesterday I was at a high school to teach a wild edibles class at the request of one of the science teachers. The school is considered one of the top high schools in The Woodlands, Texas, a very affluent suburb of Houston.

I have never been so sure that we are doing the right thing by homeschooling our kids.

The teacher had no power over the class. Kids were sleeping, talking, mouthing off to the teacher, throwing things around or just to drunk/stone to do anything other than stare into space. After talking for a bit we went outside and explored the ground for edible plants. Every plant we saw kids asked the same question: "Will it make me high?"

When we got back to the classroom the "students" (I have a hard time calling them that!) discovered that someone had gone through their bookbags and stolen money, cell phones, etc...

This was only one class but from what I saw while walking through the hallways suggests a majority of the classrooms are out of control.

Sidenote: it took me half an hour to pull out all my knives, hatchets, machetes, and other items out of my truck to make it legal to be on school grounds.

-Blast

Sounds like a great opportunity to start the young Texan asparagus enema craze, just to see how gullible these 'students' are!!

Hmmm, the wheels in my mind are turning, turning, turnng...
-Blast

I think your targeting the wrong audience.

High-school kids are going to be typical kids for 15 to 17 yo. They are punks, insolent, know-it-alls, in my high-school we had up to 60 kids in a class and if someone didn't fall out from drugs/alcohol, and there wasn't a fight, it was considered a good day by the teacher. It is the duty of every kid that age to push the limits and to chafe against all decorum and authority.

That this is a well-off school, with kids coming from well-off families just makes things worse. Think throw-away, latch-key kids who have have been catered to all their lives.

I can't imagine a wild food class has any relevance to them. Likely they took as a way to blow off some time without working at it. If they want food they go home or Mick-Ds. The subject being irrelevant brings on boredom, listlessness, bad behavior. Not interested in wild foods as food they, like most kids that age, want to get high. If you could point out two or three thing they might alter their minds by smoking, eating, or rubbing it into their bellies -not that you would or should- they would have perked up and paid attention. Kids that age need a 'hook'.

These are the same people the summer blockbusters cater to with fiery explosions, shootouts, gratuitous nudity/sex/violence. No matter how good you are getting these kids interested in stuff they consider to be weeds was a lost cause if you didn't toss in a few fiery explosions. A couple of nearly naked female assistants might have helped.

You would have better luck teaching petipoint to Hell's Angels.

I think you're going to have better luck with such a classes if you shoot for teaching younger kids. You need them old enough to be physically and mentally competent but young enough to be curious and impressed by authority figures. High-school is too late. Late elementary school, or what is called middle school, might get you a more receptive audience.

No worry. Teaching a class is itself a learning process. If you keep seeking out the right audience, and keep working on your lesson, it will 'click' one day. Teaching is kind of like stand-up comedy.

An interesting take on stupidity:
http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2010/10/i_find_hope_in_the_constancy_o.php

I actually have a little sympathy for todays teenagers. Just look at the top 10 Billboard.

http://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100#/charts/hot-100

Utter drivel, then I realised Leftfield, Leftism and the Chemical Brothers Exit Planet Dust and Dig Your Own Hole is nearly 15 years old. Now I'm a little depressed...

You've gotta have a little sympathy for the youngsters trying to shock and awe the older generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybExkQSfFw

Wow, I haven't heard a single song in the top 10! The only one of them I even know is Katy Perry, and mostly just because she's smokin' hot!

Someone needs to get poor little High-Rise Boy a Bonsai tree.

Hey Blast!Here's a Cog for the turning wheels,Next time you get asked to show a class,Put some Cocoa Puffs in your pocket,& Plant them in an area,you intend to show,When you get to the planted site/s,explain to them How,Rabbits eating certain plants or vegetation,such as Lambs breath or licorice root, produce turds,that give you a Brief Buzz for about 5 minutes or so,& The more you eat,of course the longer the buzz,Then reach down & say "here's some of those right here!"& Pop em' in your mouth,chew em' up,stick your tongue out,to show you are chompin' on em',Tell them,It takes a while to start feeling anything,5-10 minutes later,Yell Out a Big "YeeeHawww"!when they respond to your strange behaviour,Tell em' you just got a Big Headrush,& you are starting to feel it!Inform them it doesn't make your eyes red,either!I'll bet they will learn REAL fast,How to tell the difference of Licorice root/Fennel,etc.Some cats require a little coaxing,before skinning!lol!

A while back, I pull into a gas station to get fuel for my car. A young man runs up and says "yes, sir?" I tell him to fill it. After a few minutes, I glance in the door mirror to see he has the nozzle out of the car and is pumping gasoline onto the ground. I get out and ask him what he's doing and he stands up and embarrassingly says he's not very good at math and that when the nozzle click's off on a full tank, he then pulls it out and pumps some gas onto the ground until it hits an even number. It seems he can only give change in twenty-five cent increments.
I said something like "You never finished school, huh?" He breaks into a huge smile and says "Oh, no. I graduated from (the local high school).

Given that it's Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada:

A lady was picking through the frozen turkeys at the grocery store, but couldn't find one big enough for her family. She asked the stock boy, "Do these turkeys get any bigger?" The stock boy answered, "No ma'am, they're dead."

My turn. Working in Homeless Depot tool department. Saturday, guy buys a pnuematic nail gun, not from me. But he was there for a while, wanted one that would shoot a variety of nails, not doing a roof...blah blah blah. Gets a decent gun.

Sunday morning, a guy calls - "Hey, this nail gun I bought yesterday doesn't work!!" Ok sir, what kind is it? "It's a Porter Cable pneumatic nail gun, model number 1234" OK and what type of compressor do you have it hooked up to? Silence... "compressor??" Yes sir, the little nipple on the end of the handle is a fitting so you can hook it up to a hose running from an air compressor. "oh, I'll be in later to get one I guess" My co-worker suggested that next time that happens, we tell the customer to blow really hard into the nipple fitting. The dept manager was not amused, or so he said when he quit laughing.

I'm the end of the boomer gen, more or less, and this guy was squarely in gen X. Wonder if he ever watched HGTV?

OK, here's a little test. Who is smarter in this scenario?

I was visiting my neighbor this morning, and his 20-something son and GF were there with their brand new freshly purchased labrador puppy. Apparently the kids think puppies are born understanding the English language, because I observed them saying repeatedly over-and-over to the puppy, "Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit!", ad infinitum. Of course the little lab was standing up on all fours, panting happily, looking at little birdies flying overhead, and at the son and GF, quizzically cocking his little head back and forth. After a few minutes of this, the kids shrug to each other, give up, pick up the little dog, and go trotting off down the street.

I don't view 20 something yr old as "kids" Nonetheless, the "Sit!, Sit!" scneario is just not confined to the younger generation. In local parks, I constantly see dog owners from all age groups and all walks of live who are of the foolish belief and uneducated opinion that issuing multiple commands to "Stay / Sit / Come / Down / Heel" etc is an effective way of (not) controlling their dog.

People think you can teach dogs how to mind with osmosis. Unfortunately, they teach their kids the same way.

I have some new neighbors next door. They have three small kids, the oldest of which is six and female. The girl is already the teenager in Art_in_FL's comment about high-school kids: a punk, insolent, know-it-all witch. I can hardly wait until she becomes a teenager so that particular chicken comes home to roost! I just hope they've moved to another state by then.

Most parents have no control over their kids, and they don't even have a CLUE that they don't. Over and over and over, I hear the same commands, and watch the same total lack of results. Albert Einstein said something about the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Writer and long-time NY schoolteacher John Taylor Gatto, author of Dumbing Us Down, said that the American public school system has only two priorities: Control and creating good consumers.

Writer/teacher/school counselor Linda Schrock Taylor says they only have one: money. The more "disabled" kids they can list, the more money they get. It is in their best interests to produce "disabled" kids.

With all the money that is poured into what is laughingly (by other countries) referred to as "the American educational system", is it accidental or deliberate that it doesn't educate?

When 55% of my property taxes goes to education, plus the lottery money, plus the federal funds, with the results we're getting we should cancel the educational system (since it doesn't work) and give the money to the firefighters.

Sue

Hmmmmm. Now that might be one whale of an eye-opening education. Make every kid serve a year or two as a firefighter, paramedic, (insert your favorite public service job), etc before they can graduate. That might be one "wake up and smell the coffee" genius idea. "Sorry, you can't put out that fire, stabilize that broken limb, etc etc, you don't get your diploma."

On the other hand, that just passes the problem on to firefighters, paramedics, etc etc, and they already have plenty to do.

Still, not a bad idea. When I was in high school, I spent a couple weeks before my senior year at a state-sponsored camp for "promising" kids. We lived in military barracks at Camp _____ with responsibility to keep our barracks and personal possessions in tip-top inspectable condition. Everyone participated in a faux "government" including law-enforcement, etc etc. I couldn't bear the idea of sitting through boring political activities, so I signed up for the Highway Patrol program. It was a genius idea, because it was a terrific experience. I spent the entire time with HP guys rescuing, shooting, training, patrolling and so on. Extremely educational and I had the time of my life.

I don't mean to interrupt this thread, but I've been lurking here for a few years and this is the first thread that's really encouraged me to speak, if only to say how discouraging it is.

Speaking as (apparently) one of the younger people reading these boards, it's disheartening to read any thread that accuses our generation (I'm still not clear which generation, other than "young people") of being universally ignorant, unmotivated, greedy, malicious, stupid, and any other collection of negative traits. I know not every poster is making such a widespread, blanket judgment (though a handful have it made crystal clear that they happily are), but this thread seems to have devolved into a collection of anecdotes about how terrible anyone under 30 is.

I might be being thin-skinned here, or misreading the tone or intent in a lot of these posts. I'm not even disputing that my generation is full of idiots (though I'd argue that's not our exclusive province). I just wanted to say how hostile it seems to me, and how unwelcome this board suddenly seems to us younger lurkers.

Again, I apologize if I'm misinterpreting anyone's tone or ideas. But the last page reads like an email my great-aunt Ethel would forward me with a title "FW:FW:FW:FW: CAN YOU BELIEVE THESE KIDS THESE DAYS ON MY LAWN?"

MBO - welcome to ETS. If it takes a controversial thread to get you off the sidelines and contribute to ETS conversations then that's an upside.

Those who are silent cede the discourse.

And bookmark this thread for three decades from now when you are wondering what the world is coming to with all the ignorant whippersnappers of the year 2040.

Seriously, welcome. If you've been here for years you know this thread is not what ETS is about. It's just a few of us chewing the fat. Now please introduce yourself and what has drawn you to ETS before now.

:-)

Welcome!

It's not just the under 30. This morning I went to exchange something at Lowe's. It took the cashier before me (probably in her 40's) 3 times to correctly label something "Defective, doesn't work." Seriously. Attempt one: Defected. Attempt 2: Defective, does (and the proceeded to "dot her I" in that word) Finally she figured it out.

A bunch of it probaby has to do w/ the education system, but probably more has to do with parents. Ignorance breeds ignorance, but you fly to the other end and apparently richness breeds ignorance too. Check out "Jersey shore" or any of the "Real Housewive" series to see how ditzy you can get despite every opportunity available.

I wonder though, how much of it is just every day American life. Example: yesterday we bought a new TV stand. The most I had to do to assemble it was put in 4 screws with an allen wrench. Literally everything else was precut, pre-measured, and "made to fit." No thought what-so-ever on my part. "Convenience" has made it so a person can really tune-out most of life.

Maybe it is a plan...

Is it easier to rule over and take advantage of a large group of people who can't read, can't do basic math, are virtually incapable of figuring anything out, and are used to having everything done for them, or a large group of people who are educated and can think for themselves?

Come to think of it... look around, I think it's working.

Sue

MBO:

Don't take it all to heart. It's all relative (no pun intended).

Old history books will tell you that this is not a recent development. Every previous generation laments the decline of the next generation. Ask your grandparents what they think of your parents generation...I am sure that they would voice many similar concerns as discussed here already. My parents generation have made the same comments about my generation. I am almost certain that in 20 years or so, your generation will be saying much the same about your child's generation.

Nice to have you aboard, MBO, regardless how you got here. We all can learn something from this thread, even if it's only "think". Reading through it, and my own posts, I'm reminded of my dad and my Uncle Ed when they got "old". It was tiresome to hear them rail on about how things were changing for the worst. As my teacher wife always says, "I just want you to LISTEN!" ha So, just consider some of this venting.....some of it. Join in, and get something off your chest. We'll "LISTEN", already! And have fun.

Welcome, MBO.

I know plenty of young people (19 and under), and young professionals (20-30). Most of them are a joy to have around. With regard to my own children I've worked hard to teach them what they need to know to be self-reliant, strong and smart. I had some good pre-parenting experience helping to raise my much younger brother. I've been mentoring less-experienced people at work for much of my working life, and there's no doubt that I'm a better parent as a result of the experience.

There are some parents out there that seem to be intent on raising over-entitled, spoiled, unintelligent and useless parasites. I've caught my children looking at these brats like they were studying so many disgusting insects, and it makes me proud.

+1.....The parochial schools are educating kids at a superior level at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost per student. This statement is based on standardized test score averages. There is absolutely no reason that public school systems could not restore order and provide a real education if that was the true objective.

Yup. Look, there are plenty of posts on forums I enjoy that I find disagreeable. Much worse than griping about persons of a particular age group. Its probably not what you want to hear but hang around long enough on ANY forum and you'll either develop thicker skin or learn to let things slide. And BTW, the Boomers are responsible for all the world's problems, not your generation.

We're probably the first generation that will listen to more noisy music than our kids

In the noisy music vein, it's probably an understatement to say that the entertainment business gives quite a bit of help and encouragement in promoting nincompoop-ism. I'm personally aware of extensive efforts to help educate and protect people from the dangers of loud sound (music, recreational, occupational noise, etc etc). Suffice it to say that thousands of person hours, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, including from big commercial entities like Shure Microphones, have gone into this public awareness effort over the last 25 years or so. And many thousands of professionals in the music and recording industry have received free annual hearing testing as part of this hearing-preservation effort.

So, I'm driving to work a few months ago, and I get behind a bus that has a big ad on the back and sides that says "LIVE LOUD! YOUR MUSIC, YOUR WAY!" It turns out that these ads were all over our metropolitan area--on billboards, bus-stops, etc., some even outside a large medical center that specializes in treating hearing problems. The ad featured some cute, hiply-dressed young kids standing in front of some very large, colorful loudspeakers. The sponsor of the ad? Here's a hint: their trademark is a cartoon mouse with big ears, a wide grin, red short pants, big yellow shoes and white gloves with only 4 fingers.

I've been reading the posts and have decided that there are a couple things that bother me and I decided I have a couple points I'd like to throw into the fire.

One is the assertion that the military only uses up their recruits and does nothing to better them (Art). I think this gives grave disservice to the men and women in our military branches. These "kids" (even mere infantrymen) are taught more than just shooting and killing. They are taught leadership, teamwork, computer sciences, geopolitics, attention to detail, etc to accomplish their assigned mission - they are not robots merely blindly following orders. They are provided with numerous opportunities to attend college both during and following their service. The vast majority of service members serve with honor and deserve better. The few who don't fit are processed out.

Another is that the younger people are ALL jackwagons. Again, I think this is a serious over generalization. Each generation learns new skills that previous generations couldn't fathom. They also don't learn other skills that were critical to prior generations because they are no longer valuable to day to day living.

Each new generation shocks the previous generation just by living. It's especially in the nature of teenagers to challenge authority at all times. Remember when you were young, you did it too! There are many famous quotes back into antiquity about the new generation being lazy, ignorant wastrels and how their music is terrible. Ok, sometimes I agree with that last part but I do like me some GaGa

I do agree that newer generations are having to work really hard to maintain that shock and awe. I've recently encountered a disturbing trend of kids dressing like the 60's and 70's again! The Horror!

Loss of some skills occurs every generation but I do feel the loss is accelerating. Parents may learn only 25% of what their parent knew and then only pass on 25% to their children. The reasons are many and have been mentioned earlier, but each successive generation passes only a portion of their knowledge onward resulting in a diminishing return.

Additionally, I do think our public schools are failing in what I consider their primary mission. However, I feel it is the fault of the parents because the school system is overburdened doing the parent's job. Teachers are being charged with being supplemental parents rather than just being teachers. All the responsibility but none of the authority. Schools shouldn't be responsible for every facet of a child's life, but that's what they're being held responsible for doing. If the school does discipline a student oftentimes parents come to the school and complain that their little precious is being picked on. So much for the school having any authority to maintain order let alone establish a rigid standard. Parents that pay for private school or Home school are usually far more involved in their kid's schooling than many public school kids. Apples and Oranges with regards to parental involvement.

There, I've said my piece.

In answer to the initial question, of course we are raising a generation of nincompoops, and of jacks-of-all-trades, of genius-level folk, of mostly ordinary folks, etcetera. Pretty much the standard mix, I reckon.

Are they more distant from the skill set of the ordinary citizen of the past? Of course! Is it a potential awful thing? Of course! Was our generation in the same relative boat? You betcha!

Is this such a bad thing that we should be worried and up in arms? Not being a fortune-teller, I do not know. Glad I am not in charge.

I think those who value a certain skill set should do what they can to preserve it and pass it on. I think we must trust that somehow that will be enough.

My greater concern is that young people get a shot at critical and independent thinking. You know, the kind everyone says is a good idea but then does not teach because it immediately equips kids with the ability to question authority, mention the emperor has no clothes, stuff like that.

"They also don't learn other skills that were critical to prior generations because they are no longer valuable to day to day living."

* They can't think for themselves.
* They can't work out any kind of reasonable answer to even simple problems.
* They have no real concept of history at all. Their ignorance of the world is overwhelming.
* They can't seem to tell right from wrong, only what they want.
* They are seriously controlled by peer pressure, mainly in a negative way.
* They are rude and obnoxious from an early age and onward, not just teens. They tend not to improve... nasty at 15, nasty at 35. Why should they change?
* They don't care about anyone but themselves and some of their peer group; they don't even care about the family that is providing the largesse, they're just a kind of bank account and guaranteed source of toys.
* They are ruled by greed to a point that I have never seen outside large corporations and politicians.

So many of these young people really don't have much to offer society beyond some knowledge of electronics. Turn off the power and what do you have? NOTHING!

And if you place a group of these nincompoops (and worse) side by side with a group of homeschooled or private-schooled young people of the same ages whose parents actually cared about them, the differences are staggering, absolutely staggering. It's like two entirely different species.

It is said that a country has the government it deserves, and that probably also applies to its children.

Sue

This is the exact argument that is proffered by public school teachers in between strikes for higher wages and smaller classes. Although at their level there is some merit to the argument, in reality the situation could change overnight if the grossly overpaid administrators and blowhard politicians declared that all classes are in English, the teachers are THE talent in the system, and that they will control the classroom. Not the parent, and certainly not the students!

Unacceptable behavior would simply be forbidden and crushed. Shools are part of our society, and as with any other societal misfit. serious or chronic disruptors would be locked down in reform schools as they were in the past, with the parent and the 'student' paying the room and board. The teacher would instruct the parents as to the requirements of behavior, dress, and performance, and the parent and students would be required to comply or face fines and other sanctions.

And yes, the ludicrous notions of social advancement for students and tenure for teachers is forever relegated to the dumpster and yes, you could flunk out or get fired if you don't keep up. The other side of the coin is that once teachers control the classroom, as they once did, they would be fully accountable for their results.

I am married to a teacher, so this is dinnertime conversation for us.

I'm very close to a person who is a teacher at a private school for "gifted" children. The parents who are rude, confrontational, and unreliable generally have children that are the same way, and who are on their way to failing the program. Interestingly, these parents often are proud of their child's poor behavior.

The parents who are supportive, interested, and reliable generally have children that are the same way, and who are on their way to succeeding in the program. Simple.

I don't see these ugly traits any more often in young people than I do in adults.

"I don't see these ugly traits any more often in young people than I do in adults."

This is not a single-generation problem! This didn't just show up, it's just been getting worse, as so many other facets of our lives have been doing. It's been an ugly snowball rolling downhill for many years, it's going downhill faster now, and there's going to be a point where it's going to end with a big nasty SPLAT!

How bad it looks now probably depends on how old you are. If you're 20-25, what you're seeing today is all you've EVER known; you have nothing else to compare it to. If you're 30-35, it seems a little more out of control from when you were younger. If you're 40-45, you're probably seeing enough differences to make you feel kind of uncomfortable. If you're 50-55, you're probably seeing a lot of differences. If you're 60+ (like me), the differences are quite shocking.

I remember the worst troublemakers in my middle school and high school, and they were pretty tame compared to the truly vicious trash that I see out here now. Teachers from my schools didn't live in daily fear for their lives, nor did the students.

It is the inability of the schools to teach the kids to read that is the crux of the whole problem. A hundred and twenty years of public schools teaching reading via a method that has been PROVEN IN HUNDREDS OF STUDIES TO BE TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE has produce an illiteracy rate that is astounding.

Statistics from the Education Portal show that...

* Illiteracy has become such a serious problem in our country that 44 million adults are now unable to read a simple story to their child.

* 50 percent of adults cannot read a book written at an eighth grade level.

* 20 percent of Americans are functionally illiterate and read below a 5th grade level.

* Nearly half of all Americans read so poorly that they cannot find a single piece of information when reading a short publication.

* 3 out of 4 people on welfare can't read.

* 20 percent of Americans read below the level needed to earn a living wage.

* 50 percent of the unemployed people who fall between the ages of 16 and 21 cannot read well enough to be considered functionally literate.

* Between 46 and 51 percent of American adults have an income well below the individual threshold poverty level because of their inability to read.

* 3 out of 5 people in an American prison can't read.

* 85 percent of juvenile offenders have problems reading.

* Approximately 50 percent of Americans read so poorly that they are unable to perform simple tasks such as balancing a checkbook and reading prescription drug labels.

* To determine how many prison beds will be needed in future years, some states actually base part of their projection on how well current elementary students are performing on reading tests.

* Illiteracy costs American taxpayers an estimated $20 billion each year.

* Illiteracy has been proven to cause children to drop out of school. Dropouts cost our nation $240 billion in social service expenditures and lost tax revenues.

[Statistics for this article were obtained from the National Institute for Literacy, National Center for Adult Literacy, The Literacy Company, U.S. Census Bureau.]

But the most frustrating part of the whole thing is that no matter how much proof is provided that this country is DEAD IN THE WATER EDUCATIONALLY, nothing changes. WHY???

All of our presidents have had their cabinets, and one of them is Secretary of Education. Have you ever heard of ANY of these Secretaries even hint that the teaching methods used in public schools need a serious and immediate renovation? NO, YOU HAVEN'T, NOT EVER! Why not???

All Americans who can read well have something in common:
* Parents who cared enough (and were able enough) to teach them enough of the basics to give them a strong start in public school, and those kids ended up being mostly self-taught.

* Parents who saw the need for a decent education and either homeschooled, hired private tutors, or sent their children to a good private school.

* Parents who stuck together as a group and INSISTED that the schools use viable methods of teaching, do it well, or they WILL remove their kids from the schools.

One of the arguments frequently used is that it's the parents' fault for not doing more. Step back and take a longer look. If the kids of the 1950s (I'll start in the middle of this debacle to make it easy) were taught that the schools were all-knowing, and their kids of the 70s were taught the same, and their kids of the 90s were taught the same, WHO THE BLOODY 'ELL SUDDENLY TAUGHT THE PARENTS OF THIS NEW CENTURY THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG???

What percentage of the total school district income in your area goes to administration? Here, administrative costs eat up well over half the total income of the school districts. When they're trying to get another school levy passed, they're always whining, "It's for the kids", well, it ISN'T for the kids, it's for administration, and they don't give a hoot about your kids, it's all about the money.

When a country like the United States of America can't educate its own people for over 100 years, there is a reason for it. And just what do you think that reason might be, hmmmm?

So, you think the current Gimmee Generation can take care of itself? Try this: remove all their caretakers who have made their lives so easy. And what you will get is a national (if not worldwide) Lord of the Flies.

"This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper." (T.S. Eliot, 1925)

Sue

Thanks to all the encouraging welcomes, guys. I'm a pretty diehard lurker, here and other places - I mostly prefer to soak up what a lot of my betters (and elders) have to say. But the warm welcome is definitely encouraging me to get a little more involved with the other topics on the site. One of the things I love about ETS is how open it all is. There's less dogmatism, less griping. Seems an odd observation to make in a thread about nincompoops, but damn, you guys are nice!

MBO, we wrangle and we tangle and we go back and forth. But many of us have been here for YEARS, and no one has been killed yet.

The b.... witch from Washington State is probably first in line, but don't let her bother you. She's just an overly-opinionated agitator, one of those 'kill the umpire' people. Most harmless except for raising blood pressure.

So, welcome to the board, toss your ideas into the ring, ask your questions and don't worry about sounding dumb or anything. We're all ignorant about some stuff. The people here really are great.

Sue

Including Sue!

Fixed that for ya' dweste.

-Blast

That's what makes her so lovable!

A guy once glared at me and called me "a natural-born irritant".

Well... yeah.

Blast just kind of 'rephrased' it.

Sue

Blast, the love just forces its way out.