Evaluating a "Premium" membership option

In response to several discussions over the years about some kind of revenue-generating options for ETS, one idea that has recently been activated is the idea of a paid classifieds section.

I've done some research into this, in terms of what UBB threads can do, it seems that it's possible. The forum software CAN manage paid subscriptions, but the ONLY payment options are Paypal and a clunky manual data entry model, which would avoid Paypal entirely, but require more administration of the site (which is really no big deal).

In terms of benefits of premium membership, there are a few things that could be offered:

1. Ability to list "for sale" items. I'd probably make this unlimited, I don't want to go through the hassle of managing each offer post.

2. A "Shout Box" - a live chat area that would be displayed alongside the forum topics and would only be accessible to premium members.

3. Earlier access to Doug's reviews (e.g. Shot Show report)

4. Invitation to "members-only" ETS meetups in various locations around the USA.

(Any more ideas?)

I think that premium membership should only be open to those with more than 200 posts (really) AND more than 3 months membership. I don't mean to be elitist, but I'd suggest that in the almost 7 years I've been working this forum, I've learned the patterns that show a level of quality in content, thought and community.

Another thing that I think would have to go along with Premium Membership is - sit down now - no "handles". As you can all see, my name is Martin Focazio, and Doug Ritter is really THE Doug Ritter, and I think that this would be a requirement of premium members - they would have to shed the anonymous moniker that provides a small degree of privacy and they would have to post "openly". I think this is a requirement that would have to be enforced to have a successful marketplace, and I take my lead from Facebook when I ask myself if this would dissuade people from participating as a premium member (350 Million people on Facebook using their real name, not a "handle" says that we're all mature enough to abandon pseudo-anonymous interaction)

Lastly, pricing.
It seems that there are hundreds of companies trying to pull $10 to $20 a month out of you. While ETS would love to see 1,000 subscribers as $15 a month, I think it's utterly unrealistic. Digital media, unlike magazines and books, seems to have a dramatically lower price floor, even when the content is better than physical media. I'd suggest that $1.00 a month is a more realistic price target, paid only once a year.
If we could get 300 premium members at $12 a year, that $3,600 would support a few ETS activities and help relive a little of the financial pressure involved in making ETS work.

So, again, this is NOT a statement that premium membership is happening, it's a request for a discussion. In the year 2010, many of the web sites you know and love are going to be moving to at least a partially paid subscription model, this is inevitable, so if ETS is exploring this path, I'd like to have the input of the people most affected - the thousands of members of this forum.

For this forum and ETS as a whole I reckon the majority of users would pay a good bit more than a dollar a month.

I think it will work. And as Johno said, folks would probably pay at least $12 annually and probably more. I especially like the meetup idea and the early access to reviews. The only thing I might add would be earlier chance to buy DR gear, or maybe a discount to members, if the membership income could offset the profit loss from the gear. Maybe limit discounts to the first 20 buyers or something along those lines.

It is a well known fact that this forum is regularly viewed in classrooms across the nation, if not around the world. From all appearances, it is arguably the most popular survival type website on the internet. This carries with it some responsibility by the participants. Obviously, we are responsible for providing meaningful content. What may not be as obvious is the need to preserve the vast amount of intel we have provided over the years. We have a tremendous history of knowledge contained in this forum. It is searchable and I think most would agree rather thorough on the subject matter.

I'm not sure exactly how premium membership will affect the overall function of the forum. Obviously, it would be prudent to retain the historical archive of our effort and keep it available to the masses. Regarding the membership costs, the $12 per year fee for premium status seems more than fair.

$12 seems quite reasonable. I'd say double would be fine, too.

I guess I need to start posting more, however, so I can make the 200 post cutoff. . .

One other point - there are more issues for the moderators to address when banning someone who is unruly from a site they've paid to join than one that is free. Just something to think about.

Martin,

Several thoughts. I would continue to support ETS if you offered a paid premium membership but I do not like one of your conditions. 200 Posts? Really?

I work, a lot, and often on the road (snow days this week are the exception). I have a wife, two kids and a lot of things to do. I only have 59 posts but I feel most are substantive. By the time I get to catch up on the weekends most of the threads don't need any additional responses. Should I make 140 more comments to this thread to get me past the 200 marker?

As for the anonymity question, I don't personally have an issue but I can think of some people who may have reasons due to their profession who might not want to list their full name. Also, how would you be able to enforce this? Even on Facebook there is nothing preventing a person from supplying a false name -- just a valid email that can be set up via many domain registrars for just a few bucks is needed for registration.

As for the amount, $1 or $2 monthly (yearly pay option I would hope) seems more than reasonable to me, even in these tough economic times (though I don't like PayPal). However, I have sent in donations in the past to ETS. Would need to double check with the DW, but I believe these have been well in excess of several years worth of the amount you are proposing. Not sure I would continue these if I was paying for a premium subscription -- Harder to sell the idea to the DW of paying and making a donation.
Boy, wish we had that real-time chat feature right now, we could have a back and forth on this topic.


Regards,

Michael

I like the idea. $12/year is reasonable. Username changed to actual name could be risky, for the points above. I like the limiting who can post for sale ads to premium members only. It still comes down to buyer beware; a shooting forum I post on has a requirement that you post a legal disclaimer in the OP, absolving all members, and the forum itself, from any illegal or shady activities, placing the onus entirely upon the seller & sellee only. I think we have high quality members here, and I dont forsee any huge issues, but I think its a good idea to have the disclaimer in there.
Another premium membership caveat on another forum I have seen are group buys & group discounts. For a measly $12/yr for membership, participating in a groupbuy or a group discount could potentially save you that on your firs purchase.
As I have stated before, we have some pretty sharp tools in this shed. If this is something that ETS decides to do, and Martin is looking for input, I suggest we all give them the most accurate information we can, and it will help them decide where to go.
I just have 2 final points: I think the $1/month (payable once a year) is a good membership fee. It will encourage more people to join than a higher fee would. I think that the 200 post limit may be too much-some folks here mainly surf & dont post much. Maybe 100 posts/ 6 months would be a better idea. Again, I belong to a few other forums, and I cannot post FS items on them because I dont have enough posts-and, I wont, because I am there mainly for fact gathering. Its a loss, to be sure, but there are ways around it for me. One, my brother, is a well respected member-so I post FS items through him.

"I think that premium membership should only be open to those with more than 200 posts (really) AND more than 3 months membership."

Martin, with regard to buckeye's observation, why make the AND stipulation. I note that buckeye has been registered for quite a while as well, since June 2005. Would it be possible to ammend the stipulation to include an OR such as "or to those who have been registered over x time period"? The time period could be along the lines of at least a year. Or make exceptions on a case by case basis. For example buckeye has been a long-time registered user with under 200 posts but recent posts in the last 3 months. He is in. Whereas user X has been registered since 2003 with 5 posts and hasn't made a post since 2003 and only recently made a post to get in on the action. He is out. I don't know what the answer is here. Just tossing out some ideas. There will be no easy or fair way to do it without making somebody mad.

Perhaps this could be the new proposed guideline:

"Premium membership should only be open to those with more than 200 posts AND more than 3 months membership; or to those who have been registered for at least one year. Those who have been registered for over a year with less than 200 posts will be evaluated on a case by case basis."

Or am I missing something else here Martin? Obviously the intent is to keep someone from registering and making 200 bogus posts in a week's time just so they can access premium membership benefits. Also to make it easier as opposed to a case by case basis. On the other hand I think at least a year wait is enough to be prohibitive to someone like this. Am I missing anything else?

As far as interest, I think I could talk DW into it no problem at $12 per year. FWIW. Hope this pans out.

I agree with the no handles rule for the marketplace. However, some of us might like to be Premium members for the other benefits. I have no intent to sell anything, but I might like "Earlier access to Doug's reviews" and perhaps an Invite to "members-only" ETS meetups. I don't see why a real world name is required if I'm not doing business through ETS. What am I missing?

My 0.02$...

Here in this thread the "premium membership" is joined with the idea of a marketplace where there is some minimum quality assurance of the standing in the community of those posting gear for sale there. I think joining those two only serves to muddle the water.

The idea of a "premium" or a "benefactor" status is a good one. I am sure ETS foundation will make good use of that money.

I am a bit puzzled of how to solve the challenges that arises with the marketplace - no matter how you put it there are evil pitfalls and traps. I think the most clear cut and easy way is to put the marketplace in a totally separate forum, the way it is done at candlepowerforums (nerdy flashlight discussions). Registering at the candlepowerforums marketplace is totally separate from the candlepowerforum. Exclusion from one has no impact on the other. What happens in the marketplace stays there. Period. Go to http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/index.php? and read their rules, contact the administrators if you want feedback of how they regulate private transactions and professional vendors and how those rules works and are enforced in practice.

Having a separate marketplace forum also solves a lot of the issues disussed here of how to QA those who are permitted to a "premium" status - simply by exporting the problem to another forum. I don't want to go into details, but I see several cans of worms with some of the above proposals to that problem.

Let me rephrase that for clarity: Since you no longer are worried about QA the morale of those that wants to sell excess gear, the rules of admission to "premium" status can be much easier and transparent. My favorite: If you pay, you get "benefactor" status. Simple as that.

An added benefit is that you won't develop a paria caste (those worthy of "premium" status) high above the rest. With some grains of salt, common sense and perhaps a little search you find out pretty quick who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. I like to see all members on equal footing. I wouldn't mind seeing that member X has contributed to ETS and now has a well earned "benefactor" status. Having a board comitty evaluating member Y to "superior" status means we no longer are on an equal footing. I dislike that.



None at all. You pay cover charge to a fancy bar and misbehave - do you get your covercharge back? No you don't.

Technically you CAN refund the appropriate proportion of the subscription (minus paypal fees, minus the time elapsed since payment and so on). But I don't really see the problem if ETS states that it won't.

I'm also guessing that the trolls don't want to PAY for having their fun. Of course, you could have a situation where honorable members starts flaming each other (perhaps due to some marketplace dispute...). Possible, but unlikely.

Hi Martin
Like the others, I think the price is more than fair. In fact, there's proabably a few years of donations I need to log with you anyway...

That being said, in some ways I agree with the name thing. Some folks may have sensitive jobs, so there would be some of the "I don't represent any official position" kind of protection. I certainly don't mind my first name being used.

My biggest concern would be the chat room - sure, there'd be real time dialogue, back and forth, etc. But I can see a bunch of paid members having a great discussion that ends when the last one logs off, and no record of it ever enters the thread itself. So a thread may linger and die with minimal participation seen by the general public, but potentially the world's greatest discussion that disappears in the space of a night.

consider a life membership option at some multiple of annual membership, to include a hat, a window decal, and a 'Smiling Doug' bobblehead.

In for a bobblehead!!!

I'd pay $12.00 a year, but let's not get hasty... I lost a lot of work and an apartment recently when I had to spend some "funtime" in the hospital. $12.00 is good. LOL

If things looked up, I'd be willing to think about more.

If the subscription fee led to me being able to sell some things, that would be a bonus. And I do have a paypal account.

I do worry about having my name out there on the net though.

Simple enough. We cross-check your stated name an address against many databases that are out there. Cheap, even free.

Archives of chats would become posts. chats are visible to non members.

Good idea. Just FYI - there's "digital" and the opposite of digital, which is "private".

https://panopticlick.eff.org/

"In for a bobblehead"

Yeah, but not the naked smiling Doug bobblehead.

<shudders>
On the plus side, they could sell "accessories" for the DR bobblehead, and we could load up its tiny pockets with tiny survival accessories!

More fund raiseing activities!

OK, replying to myself here and consolidating.

There's been some good comments (including some side discussions from DR hisself) and the core concept - a "Benefactor" seems to be OK on one level. Still not saying this will actually HAPPEN but it's under evaluation. The whole idea might get tossed once the logistics of it all are worked out.

What's not at all clear is what being a "benefactor" gets you, but I have a list of things that it's not going to get you. Early access to Shot Show reviews is off the table and the idea of a "marketplace" makes the internet old-timers nervous.

Everyone seems to think that $12 a year is too cheap, I think I'll believe that when the subscriptions come in.

I got a few side notes about accessing some video content - maybe some version of one of DR's presentations. I don't know if that's going to work, but it's an interesting idea.

Another idea that came in via another channel is the concept of some kind of digital "tools" (planners? reminder services?) that are only offered to benefactors.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming.

I don't "hide" behind my "handle", considering I chose one that is unique, and pretty much government mandated. I just want to give people one more step to figure out who I am! I also use "handles" to segment interests and topics I contribute to. This makes it less likely you can find other things on me and get a more complete picture. Yes, I, like anyone else will leave "bread crumbs" in posts.

As for Facebook, these are people I have interacted with, and have some idea of how much they understand me, and don't have to self-censor as much (well, except up here in the Northeast, too many people get offended by stuff so you have to write a 15 sentence paragraph to make sure everyone gets that you're not a racist, bigot, anti-vegetarian, idiot, etc, etc ). Also, things I put on Facebook are not indexed within 30 seconds by Google.

Funny, with 530+ posts, my username only appears once in a Google Search for ETS.

So, I'm not really a fan of saying "no" to handles, because some people here (i.e. Blast ) have garnered a reputation with that identity.

I like the idea of making sure that those who have been registered for a long time and "lurk", more than contribute, do get a benefit. Obviously, if they come here a lot, they're getting a benefit, and might like to contribute. I have noticed that some come out of the woodwork once they've gotten a feel for 1) the environment and 2) the topics on the board. They'll eventually notice something "missing" from the discussion and realize they're the only one to notice this and will immediately subscribe!

I look forward to the "premium" setup, and I would gladly support, as I have directly supported ETS in the past (not as regularly as I would like).

It seems reasonable to me, $25/year and no refunds.

But what is the real fear of posting one's name? Is your real name already out there? If you have a sensitive job, are you advertising it? And if you're on Twitter, MySpace or Facebook, or have a blog or have posted a resume online, you're already out there.

And how many other people have the same name? If someone does happen to find you, what do you think they're going to do? Break into your home -- after you mentioned that you have 17 guns, you're a staunch Second Amendment supporter, and have a short temper? Send you advertising? What? Marty's name is out there all over the place, home address, workplace, commute times and what time he is likely to be home to passing assassins. I haven't heard him mention problems.

I agree with someone's suggestion that the requirements be either 200 posts OR 3 months. I suspect that if people are posting their real names, they would be a little more careful about what they say and do. Maybe. The bi.... ah... witch in WA may be an exception.

Disclaimers aren't worth anything, posted online or written personally on paper in blood.

Sue

Public name can be an issue for those with, or needing, security clearances. Agencies go to the internet and put a name in. What they do with the result might depend on how much time they have to hash thru the results.

My name is common enough that lots of other people come up on Google search. Some of them are in my town but aren't me. I don't know what they've been up to (except for the one that was killed while crossing the road to get his snail mail).
It's a bit like the credit report where someone gets a bad mark and suddenly can't get a job but doesn't know why and might spend years straightening it out.

I'm not on Facebook or any of that stuff and see no reason to join in the fray.

I see no real benefit to using a real name and many reasons not to. Verifying that the poster is using a real name and not an alias might take some effort.


Color me - opposed.

A while back a young and unstable fellow showed up here asking for advice on how to survive in the wilds while walking across the country and oh by the way, he was starting out in one week and didn't give a damn about any poaching laws. I and several others tried to convince him of the error of his ways and he didn't take it very kindly. For quite a while afterwards I was recieving threatening e-mails from this clown. Luckily he wasn't smart enough to figure out my real name or he probably could have raised real hell with me, my family and my job.

Martin, you seem to be in a pretty secure spot in your life and with your particular skills and contacts you probably don't worry about someone e-mailing your employer with lies. Many of us (me included) do not have that sort of security in our life. The last thing anyone wants to do is give someone with a chip on their shoulder a lever into their life.

My two cents,
-Blast

I'd gladly pay $25. per year. I don't, however like the idea of no "handles" or a 200 minimum post requirement. I try not to post unless I have something to share which I believe is useful to others. However, I often sign on to gain/increase my knowledge base. This doesn't make me any less a member or supporter.

Now THAT is a real testament to his intellect... I have no interest in that sort of thing, but I'm pretty sure I could figure out a lot of those details about Blast PDQ if I wanted to.

Also, your level of security may change. Ever considered that you some day may want to or be forced to change jobs? Pretty standard these days to google for your name and see what pops up before you hire someone. Just to take the standard text book example: Those funny party pictures may not see that funny taken out of context in an report on your possible future employer.

Yes, every day. The oil business is in the crapper and probably will be for another five years minimum. And that's why I try very hard to keep anything I do online non-scary to current/future employers.

I've had to open up my life some with my edible plant classes and I'm not wild about that.

-Blast

I won't use my full name in an Internet forum, especially not one which broaches some of the subjects on ETS. Perhaps after I'm retired.

Many of the ETS discussions wouldn't be as interesting without the freedom of pseudonyms.

If anyone thinks they need to know someone's name they can PM and ask.

If I ever went to an ETS event, I'd introduce myself there.

BTW, for my purposes I'm not seeing value in the proposed benefits of benefactor status, other than someone's mention of product discounts. I'm not fond of chat rooms.

If income is needed, then perhaps one or more of the forum sections should be closed to non-contributors. That would be an inducement for those interested enough in these subjects to be here -- especially if there were occasional click-through product discounts in the contributor-only section(s).

Dagny expressed my thoughts. I'll leave the forum before I use my full name here.

Here are my points:

1) To me, the premo membership and the marketplaces are wholly separate ideas. Batching them is just unnecessary. There are many people here who are happy to donate. I've done it. Many of you others have too. So, we should not be talking about premium memberships and marketplaces at the same time.

2) The premo membership. The bar cover charge example is not a good parallel. Think of it more like this: I buy a 2 year subscription to a magazine. After a year I write a scathing rebuke to the editors and everyone else who will listen, posting copies publicly online. Now, should I suddenly not get the second year of my subscription? You can't just brush off the fact that someone paid for something and they deserve to get it. You would have to refund them if you wanted your white hat to remain unsullied.

The better option is to say, hey, a premo membership is $X. You are a supporter of the ETS foundation. NOT THE FORUM. If the website goes belly up you get nothing. If you make a fool of yourself on the forum you can't post there anymore... but you are still a premium supporter of the ETS foundation! yes, you lose some perks for your foolishness but you are still a premium supporter. That handily sidesteps the whole issue.

3) the marketplace. I've said in other threads I think its unnecessary. First, you can pay to have a listing in the marketplace forum. I've done it. Why can't you. Reduce the fee if its so onerous to pay $15. If you aren't willing to pay such a small fee, then, maybe you should wait until you have a few more items. Or maybe small items should be saved for local gatherings which have trading blankets. Remember: if its not worth paying a small fee to list it, there is a good chance it won't be worth paying a small fee to ship it either!!!

Summary:
I'm all for a premo membership to SUPPORT the ETS foundation. This doesn't have to be tied to the forum. The forum is just a part of the foundation. And you can be banned from the forum and still be an ETS supporter.

As for the marketplace, I just really don't want to see this place commercialized or turned into a flea market (yes those are two different things). And this is from a guy who sells stuff for a living. I know the pitfalls.

Unless you're aware of what a TOR exit node is and you have intimate knowledge of encryption and routing protocols, and you're not using a computer that runs any number of ordinary protocols and you're connecting to the internet via multiple internet connections in multiple locations, you're not anonymous.

Perhaps not to the CIA or an extreme computer geek, but the average person or HR department whose research consists of Googling a name is not going to pick up on my ETS comments.

Martin, you could do it. I could probably do it, and I know plenty of people who do it pretty regularly. But even my potential employers aren't likely to go to that extreme. The programming people don't care and the HR weasels are going to stop at Google and Facebook.

I am looking for a job. I'm interviewing for one tomorrow. That means that I'm going to burn a vacation day, so my boss doesn't know that I am looking. By the same token, I don't want to have it be known to a potential employer that I engage in what is commonly considered paranoid behavior. I camp, I shoot (and I'm careful how I mention that at work) and hunt, and seem to be able to pull whatever is needed at the moment from my bag or truck. They know I'd rather be half way up a mountain most days than in the office. THAT is what they know. That is all I need them to know. That is the same reason that if I can ever get published, it will be under a pseudonym.

I like being able to have a modicum of privacy from random nosy and stalkery people. Martin, you live in the world where this stuff is normal- sometimes you can forget that for 99.9% of the world, it is black magic. I know I forget sometimes that most people have no idea how the interweb works, and don't realize that their computer is just a glorified calculator. From someone with a little training, some software and a very little patience there is no privacy. Maybe one in a thousand people know how little about you isn't available. But I'd like to keep that 99.9% from knowing my real name is really Rumpelstiltskin. Or something like that.

There is another reason for not liking the idea of using my real name. I can say "IronRaven" online, and if there is anyone in the room who spends time here or at ZS or a couple of places, and they'll know it is probably me. After a few posts, it's me, that becomes pretty obvious. But XXXXXXXX, who's that? I'm known as IronRaven, it is my nom de perati. Even if we were to do a meet and greet, yeah, you'd get my first name. I'd have it on a sticker that says "hi my name is". But "IronRaven" would be above my real name, and in much larger letters.

If I can't post as IronRaven, then I think I'll pass on a premium service. Same reason as I pass on donating to NPR- I love their product, but they publish everyone's names. Everything else I hear, I like. But not that. If we have to be outted, then I doubt you'll get a lot of interest.

Although I am new to the forums and do not see any real value (yet) in having a premium membership for this forum. If I did decide to contribute to a premium membership, I would not do so if real world names were required. I share a common real world name with a certain athlete which for years when I used a similar email name, resulted in some very disturbing emails and attempts to contact me.

I also do some very sensitive work and know my present and potential future employers would not share my enthusiasm in forums such as this no matter how much they genuinely encourage, support and always enjoy my stories, photos and videos of my outdoor related activities.

Howdy Everyone!As for example purposes only,Ebay uses a Premier member system,It's called: Verified seller,& Once one supplies additional required personal info & 5 bucks,they get a special symbol next to their name or Handle.Once this status is established,transactions are "Rarily" scrutinized for honesty/truth,should a problem present itself,as one of the requirements to obtain this status,is a signed promissory note,that legally binds one to be Honest/Fair.Something like this could be Implemented on this site,& All who have signed up for the status,would be allowed to keep their handles & have a certain symbol displayed thereof.As for the required 200 posts?Let me be Bold enough to say"Martin,I think you are Jumping the gun,a bit!Patterns? this suggests someone is being Psychoanalytical,I beleive this is why you threw it out there,in such a manner,as to get the feedback,am I right?Forgive me if I'm wrong!My present handle is the most I'm willing to display over the www!It gives my 1st name/present location,probably enough,wouldn't you say?I love the outdoors & I love to learn!I've followed this site for many years & have learned ALOT!I have NO problems contributing monetarily & have made quite a few Anonymous Contributions to ETS Foundation.That probably won't stop either,as I said before, I love to learn!Whatever becomes of the forum,well...I guess we shall see! Thanx for allowing my opinions! Richlacal

My 2 cents:

Don't like using my real name, it creates issues in terms of employers snooping etc. I use the same handle across the net, I don't really want to change it, but I think it will be restrictive versus any payoff it may gain.

Happy to pay a subscription but in return I think I would like to see content updated more frequently - forum is great, but the front page doesn't move that fast compared to some other sites which are free (in other words I get 90% of the value of this site from the forum which is mostly the guys behind the community)

In terms of pricing - be wary of charging too little - getting people to subscribe (pull out the credit card, type in the number etc) is the biggest hurdle, and it doesn't change that much whatever the price point - it ain't the money it's the inertia. You also send out a signal that you put a low value on what you are offering. (Lots of kit out there that gets a premium rep because of the premium price)

Gold membership with a private sub forum and a marketplace might work

Just my opinion, which is worthless of course :-)

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If additional revenue is the problem, address that with additional services or goods. I would be very wary of messing with the structure of the forum as it now stands.

Just a thought.

If John Smith was selling something, say, a slightly used RSK Mk 1, I would probably pass.

On the other hand, if ironraven were selling the same item, I would give it more than just a passing glance.

Many of the long-time members here have built their reputations by their handles. If they suddenly switch to their actual name for a premium membership, well, suddenly I don't know them from ... John Smith. Unless their handle is somehow tied to their actual name, i.e. John Smith aka ironraven.

Perhaps we could keep the handles but supply the additional information confidentially?

I don't really know what the answer is. Whatever, as I think I said before, someone will be unhappy with the end result. Lurkers with low posts. Newbies with more than enough posts but not enough time registered. Perhaps you could simply revamp the marketplace for now as a yearly fee? Just throwing some more ideas around. FWIW.

I have no strong feeling one way or the other re handles vs real names. Handles seem like a nice exotic, somewhat whimsical, custom.

I have long realized that anything you state on the internet is the equivalent of shouting the concept at the top of your lungs to the whole wide world. I don't voice anything that I would not care to attach my "real" name to.

My sentiments exactly.

As for the real name thing, I don't know of a single other "open site for enthusiasts" that requires you to use your real name. The idea of knowing your trading partner has been surfaced. Usually you learn the identity of your internet trading partner AFTER a deal has been struck, and this happens in a private mode. This is sufficient. I don't have any need to know the real name of people I am not trading with.

I don't think a single good reason for forcing real names has been identified.

I would support a Premium Membership and would have no problem paying $25/year for it.

I agree that there should be a minimum amount of posts or time before membership is allowed.

I like the idea of a For Sale section, I have had only good expeciences selling/buying items with people I have met online.

I have a difficulty with the using of real names. I have an uncommon surname and routinely upset people in my profession; I like that ETS Forum is a place where my work does not follow me.

Mike

I prefer the "benefactor" name as it doesn't imply you get anything much. If you do start to get extra stuff, people will start evaluating whether the subscription is value for money, and I think it'd be better seen as a pure donation. (But it would be nice to have some acknowledgement in the form of a badge next to your posts.)

I'd rather $12 than $25, but I'm concerned that the costs of administering it will outweigh the benefits.

Although I don't make a secret of who I am online, I'm rather attached to my nickname as I've been using it across many forums for decades. (I started on Usenet in the 1980s.)

It seems that money is the real need of ETS. We all just need to donate more to reflect the value of the site to us. Lets have a fundraising drive, publish the amount coming in, set some goals for donations, and repeat yearly.

I am in a similar lifestyle situation as an earlier poster where I usually don't get to threads until they have been hashed and rehashed, so other than a "me too" or "what he said" I usually feel I don't have much to add by that point. Couple that with my natural tendency to lurk, it will take me awhile to get to 200 posts for the premium membership. However, I value what I learn here so such a task and $12/year would be worth it to maintain access to ETS.

Unfortunately, a real name requirement for posting would be a deal breaker for me.

I used to have the attitude that if I had something I felt strongly enough to post, I should have the guts to put my name to it. I also try to never post anything I'd be ashamed to see put up on my church bulletin board. So, all of my early Internet postings were under my real name. And, my posts were pretty tame, often limited to "how to's" or software work-arounds. A few years back I was actually questioned about a post I had made a lonnngggg time ago on Usenet. The post was extremely innocuous, but I was asked about it in a meeting.

Creepy. Or, at least, the creep asking if I'd found what I was looking for 15+ years earlier was creepy.

While a very small bit of work would probably easily link my name to my handle, I still want to make 'em work at it. Googling and Facebook searches are now pretty much routine for not only HR types but also by anyone looking at just about anything which requires an application. So, I now use a handle.

Premium membership sounds good.
Already using real name too.

Making ETS pay for itself - It's a difficult question.

Virtually every site owner is fighting to answer the question of how to pay for the site and time spent maintaining it. By tradition web surfers are not willing to pay for anything directly. This is made worse by the fact that most first-time visitors are arriving by way of a search engine. Limiting and controlling content, establishing a two-tier membership, isn't compatible with this.

Advertising is a popular route to income but association with any particular product or manufacturer greatly increases management burdens and often conflicts with fair reviews, open opinion, presentation of all the options. Manufacturers with higher profit margins, those most likely to advertise, tend to be making higher end products. How do you square the circle of having to cater to a manufacturer while telling people the honest fact that the product just isn't all that.

Then again there are survival, preparedness, often quasi-military sites that cater to manufacturers. They seem to drift into gear fetishism and cease to function as reliable information sources and living community. I have been told many times, often in no uncertain terms, that it is simply impossible to survive without gear that costs less than some arbitrary figure.

Developing a two-tier system of membership is a popular strategy but one that seldom seems to work out. If the site was about art or specialized content it might work. People will sometimes pay for exceptionally valuable information or content. Particularly if the information allows you to make money. Several financial sites do this but content value, particularly in the light of the latest failures, is all over the place and results are highly variable. I'm somewhat surprised many of the financial websites and newsletters still exist.

A two-tier system of survival information is pretty hard to maintain. Pretty much all the basics are open source and just a well worded Google search away. From what I have seen the 'member content' of most of the pay sites, those that are still available and updated regularly, is pretty weak. In one case I'm familiar with the site just copied material lists off a public LDS site.

Then again many of those lists were just tarted up versions of USG/USDA materials. Which were lifted from various other sources. You can look up supply lists that go back to the Shackelton expeditions and Lois and Clark and a see a lot of commonalities. The requirements for food, water and shelter haven't changed in a few thousand years. As far as I can tell there is no inside information.

The one thing that a good survival forum has to offer is interaction, input, interpretation of events past and present, encouragement, and a community to bounce ideas off of. But a two-tier system doesn't tend to encourage any of this. If anything it tends to work against community by setting up claques, experts and insiders.

Even the idea of identity is not without issues. I post under a pseudonym in part because I think that who I am is irrelevant. I want my words to stand on their own. If they are useful and reasonable then make what you will of them. If not then ignore them. There is no point to setting up a system of authority or expertise. The history of survival situations is ripe with experts who fell and rank amateurs who made it through. There is also the matter of whether it is better to listen to people who constantly find themselves in survival situations or people who simply avoid them.

I hate to disagree, but what you said regarding subscription sites is very far from the truth. They are a great way to control features, and generate income for a website. (Also a good way to 'weed out' spammers, or potential trouble makers in a for-sale area since their "real information" is normally required in their payment form.) People are NOT paying for content, or to post, or share information... they are paying for specialized features not available to the average user. Most forums that have a private area for 'paying members' are relatively slow unless an "expert" is known to only post in there or there is a tight group in their own private area.

I do agree that a clique may become a problem however this has nothing to do with subscription but more of who stays on the site the most, posts the most, and has the attitude that they are somewhat better and then these people start banding together against others / mostly newbies.

Sorry everyone, but I would consider discontinuing my use of this site if it comes down to paying directly for a membership of any kind.

Actually lets not let this thing get away on a downhill slope. (its not you TomP, I just feel that we're losing sight of the origin)

1) This thread was started by Martin in response to another thread where someone said "hey, why don't we have a marketplace here". Martin independently linked the idea of a marketplace and generating revenue for the ETS foundation. Martin is a great forum moderator with good intentions but has no formal role in the foundation at large that I am aware of.
2) Anyone can donate money to ETS - yesterday, today and tomorrow - by going to this link. This has ALWAYS been the case. its tax deductible and its on the front page. I have used that link to donate money and I can tell you I didn't have my identity stolen. You don't need to wait for some cosmic event to help ETS, you can do it today. i'm sure you can ask to be grandfathered if they start a program where you get a special forum badge tomorrow. I've dined with Doug, he is a very reasonable person. In fact, often they say that an organization's spirit "comes from the top" and thats why our forum is such a good place to be.
3) We already have a marketplace forum that anyone can use.

Hopefully when Doug is done with the Shot show he can weigh in. Until then, I would encourage any of you who have said "I would happily donate" to ... do so. I have a lot of respect for you but lets not predicate our decisions on future events that may or may not happen.

Another way to donate is to buy a Doug Ritter Knife. But that's way OT. How about we get a grandfathered membership based on our DR knife collection?

Paying membership / Premium would be optional
And I believe non-paying would lose nothing they already have now.

A general reply, thoughts and comments, not a response to Russ or previous post.

Not worried about my name being out there; it is already. And unless you google or search with the exact name as it appears here you won't make it to the posts on this forum (I tried mine without underscore; five pages into the search and still no references to ETS; I only found my posts when I put the underscore between my first and last). However this could be an issue for others, due to their employment or whatever. And as I said in a previous post I would be more comfortable buying from Blast or Ironraven than John Smith or Edward Jones. Keep the handles and only submit verifiable personal information confidentially to ETS. Or like nighthiker said names are only visible to those in the membership area (I would still like the handle attached to it though for reasons already stated). Blast may have a point, though, with respect to all the nut-jobs out there. I don't think that would include anyone here eligible for benefactor status though. Dagny has a point too. I've discovered many people's names via PM and private e-mails. But to be honest (and to ease any worries for those who have) I only remember them for a little while and eventually just go back to looking for the handle again. Nothing personal, just the way it is.

A chat feature might be nice. It is one of the features that makes interaction on facebook quicker. Not sure I agree with archiving chats though. It would be too easy to forget that others would have access. IMO, if someone is having an earth-shattering chat, they should go ahead and make it into a thread anyway. Otherwise keep chats relatively private.

Definitely NO naked doug bobbleheads (no offense DR).

Start at $12 a year and go from there. Those who need a bigger tax deduction can donate more on top of that.

The digital tools is a great idea. I assume you are talking about a way to remind users it is time to replace items in their kits, change smoke detector batteries, send mom a birthday card, etc. Of course that may not be as appealing to those with blackberries or similar devices that do that already.

I really like the idea of a discount on purchasing the DR gear. That would have been real nice before Christmas. But, like someone else said, it shouldn't offset the ETS benefit too much. Perhaps even a discount on other gear purchased from various manufacturers. Or a discount at a particular online store. I am sure they would not mind offering such a discount for reaching a fairly large buying audience. A discount on purchases alone would be worth the cost. The numbers (i.e. percent of discount) should be easy to figure out.

Meetups, not so much of a benefit. We can do that already (campfire forum, "Hey guys lets meet at X," done). Not much of that goes on anyway as someone already mentioned.

Access to video content doesn't really interest me but others might like the option.

Sales could be in a new forum that is, as Dagny suggested, closed to all but "premium" members. Sounds like this is off the table anyway. But then who is to say that regular members couldn't slip a hint that they have extras of item X and anyone interested can pm them? Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that?

I still think there needs to be an "or" in deciding who is eligible for membership. Those with x posts and x time; OR those with more than x time. But as I said before, in the end, someone will be mad or offended and leave. On the other hand, everyone should understand that there has to be a cut-off somewhere. Perhaps if you are close to a criteria an exception could be made. Let's not make this more difficult than it needs to be though.

As to what other benefits would be available, that is the 64,000 dollar question. Sounds like early access to shot show reviews is out as is a marketplace of sorts (although I kinda like those myself, don't see why they would be a problem either). Other good ideas are discounts for purchases; chat; digital tool; opportunity for special purchase items (like a knife collecting society does sometimes but for things in addition to knives like a DR signed heatsheet - the RSK in M4 steel would have been a good example of the type of special purchases membership could offer); access to early announcements of new products, first purchase opportunities, or guaranteed purchase opportunities (such as for the RSK M4 or the PSP Plus); access to special areas of the website (not 100% sure what those might be but a marketplace or swapshop would have been nice); opportunity to help DR/ETS test new gear; access to local DR seminars, say once a year; or an ETS newsletter via e-mail. Of course if you don't like a certain feature, no one says you have to use it. You can still pay your dues, get a tax deduction, and access the features you want.

I am definitely against "real name" handles. Folks should be able to choose how much privacy they want online.

Agree with others that making previous years and years of posts fade into the background unless you have a premium membership is a bad idea. People should be able to search through past archives, as there is a wealth of information there.

A minimum threshold of 200 posts to become a member sounds like a bad idea.

If money is going to be charged for access to certain parts of the forum or web site... there should appropriately be exclusive web content, discounts, offers, downloads, or extra features involved somehow.

May I suggest a supporter or membership "badge" next to a person's forum name when posting to show they have recently donated to ETS. Perhaps a quarterly renewal option with varying degrees of monetary contribution? Maybe $1, $5, $10, $15, or $20 quarterly? Forums such as edcforums.com, knifeforums.com, and candlepowerforums.com have such a feature.

IMHO, the ETS forum is the best thing available online for real world survival-related content. So many knowledgeable and friendly people here. It would be great if the forums could be self-supporting.

I'd love that too. I can't afford any of it right now.

But two things...
1) DR gear supports the foundation. So, you would give some money up front and then they could lose a fair amount more over the course of a year. Its a bit cannibalistic.
2) In my discussions with DR he has alluded to the idea that the DR gear doesn't have enormous markups to begin with.

Certainly a nice thing to wish for but I think its counterproductive to the ultimate goal.

I'd like to see an ability to mark posts as favorites, a voting mechanism, that would make very relevant posts with great information easier to find. You know, a lot of places like ted.com or digg have a little +1 or thumbs up.

Then when you are searching for posts on a topic, these "value" posts rise to the top, whereas "attaboys" and "will this work with my ipod?" drop to the bottom.

This would really add a lot of value for me!

Good post. I should buy more DR gear.

Perhaps we should pitch in and assist in the production of more good, profitable DR items.

And then I thought of Blast, teaching his survival class...Could ETS sponsor a series of classes (perhaps online) that would go above and beyond (and more intensively) that the presentations on the website. As Art-in-Fl points out in the thread on knots, a hands on class is the best way to acquire that skill (and no doubt, most others).

A digest of some of the more significant threads (the Best of ETS) with an overall summation and evaluation would be darned handy, and probably worth some money. That might be a worthwhile subscription service...

Just brainstorming on a rainy day.....

BTW, I am Bob from Illinois in case you have wondered where the handle came from.

I understand that some people have a thing against semi-anonymous handles people often use on public forums. These days its basically a self defense mechanism against employers and other people who snoop on your Internet activities. People have seen their lives destroyed over innocent (sometimes not so innocent) posts on the Internet. I'd just as soon not make it real easy for them.

My real name, address, and phone number are in the phone book, so this is not just paranoia. If you Google my cell phone number it comes up with my real name as well as a fair amount of personal information i would just as soon not be real readily available. I have a fairly common first and last name so that gives me some anonymity in any case. I now have a Google voice number that if I want to post it somewhere I can feel reasonably secure about doing so. Its not protection against government level snoopers but will keep the average snooper at bay.

At one time I posted under my real name on a number of mailing lists and groups, but these days I have modified my behavior to be a little more discrete. I still use an email address that has my real name in it. On a number of forums that I post on my real name is known to a fair number of fellow posters, but I would just as soon make the choice of who I introduce myself to.

As for a paid subscription, I am too new here to tell you whether I would be interested or not. There are a couple of forums I participate in that I have contributed to, but not on a subscription basis. Just occasional donations. Paypal is a good choice for donations IMO.

If the intent is to prevent viewing of the forum for those who don't pay, I think that is a mistake. The mission of the foundation is enhanced by people using search engines to come here and read a post or two about specific things.

I have not formed an opinion on whether it is a good or bad idea to limit posting privileges to paying members. My gut tells me it is counterproductive, but I also admit it has merit. OTOH, if someone wants to ask a few questions about a specific thing, the subscription fee is going to a major deterrent.

If I stick around for any length of time and become an active poster I probably would make occasional donations. I have to say that if it is forced on me, at this time anyway, I would probably move on.

If your interested in suggestions for improvements, beyond 'premium membership' I have two:

How about a simple numbering system for each thread. First commenter is number one, second number two ... you get he idea. Being able to reference a comment and commenter by both name and location within the thread would make things easier. Particularly on longer threads.

Far easier to reference "Joeblow at #12" and pop up to find his comment and context at #12 than having to find the name and particular instance, Joeblow may have commented several times in the one thread, in a stack of fifty or a hundred comments. Using a comment number might replace some of the longer quotations, reduce bandwidth requirements, and slightly reduce costs.

Second, the present system of accessing a thread gives you pages (1,2,3) and (all) which is good except that going to the last page often ends up where you get one or two entries so you need to page back to get a feel for the flow of the comments. To avoid this annoyance I find myself just hitting 'all' and downloading the whole thread when all I really want to look at is the entries added since I last looked at the thread.

The issue here is that downloading the entire thread is a lot of bandwidth when all you really wanted was to see the additions made in the last 24 or 48 hours, typically less than a dozen entries.

What I'm suggesting is that thee needs to be a radio button for the last ten entries. Select an appropriate set number. Or some way of specifying additions made in the last day or two. Again, select an appropriate time period.

Both changes could lower the cost of operating the site and make the site more user friendly and quick to use.

Just want to add my support to a few important small points:

- Pay-for-posting-privileges: Don't even think about it, at least not for the public (main) part of the forum.

- Any payment is voluntarily, not mandatory. You pay because you want to support ETS and/or because you'd like to access some extra goodies in the premium section. The important part: This is a free choice. Try forcing people to pay for something on the internet and their gut reaction is to vaporize faster than taxis on a rainy day.





I don't have this problem. When I'm logged in and want to view a thread I always jump straight to the newest post in that thread. There probably are some control settings to modify this behavior. I haven't fiddled with them, but since I'm a fairly new member my standard (default) settings might be different from yours. Shoot me a PM if you'd like me to investigate.

An opinion from a new poster,

This looks to be a good forum, but it is by no means unique. There are plenty of survival forums out there. I like this one so far, but if someone wanted me to pay I would just hop on somewhere else. I know some people think that children and unexperienced outdoorsmen everywhere are using this forum extensively in classrooms and the like but I would disagree with that statement. Survival forums are a dime a dozen these days.

This forum is like any other. A bunch of people I will most likely never meet stating what they think about this and that, What new gizmo they like or don't like etc etc. Its great to use as a place to chat to like minded folks, but I will never take anything I read here(or anywhere else) on a forum as gospel. If people are using this forum to actually teach in a classroom they really need to give their heads a shake IMO.

If I were to pay for the information I am "privilaged" to recieve from a forum I best be getting my information directly from Lofty Wiseman or Les Stroud.

Based on the number of members, it might be the largest one that does not permit discussion of collateral issues.

I have a hard time believing it is used in all that many classrooms. A lot of places would have a hissy fit if even a SAK was shown to children these days.

These days they suspend children from school for merely drawing pictures of guns or knives. There is not going to be any instruction in most schools that advocates the use of knives or, God forbid, fishing equipment.

There is a good ammount of solid info to be found in a forum, especially this one I am sure, You have to know where to look though. That being said, only an idiot would use unofficial information to teach with.

I have read some of the site owners pages here. I can tell that he is a well seasoned and well respected individual in the survival community and I would teach using Doug Ritters stuff any day. If people are using that information in classrooms all across the world I would believe it.

The forum however, is just that. A forum.

Personally I think ETS(or any other survival forum) would fold like a pair of two's if they tried making people pay for it.