60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus

Posted by: Dagny

60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/07/09 10:27 PM

Looks like an interesting segment on 60 Minutes tomorrow night, about the U.S. power grid's and other vital systems' vulnerability to cyber attack.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/60minutes/main5555565.shtml

The revelation is part of a Steve Kroft investigation into how computers and the Internet can be used as weapons to be broadcast on 60 MINUTES Sunday, Nov. 8 (7:00-8:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.

Former Chief of U.S. National Intelligence Retired Adm. Mike McConnell believes it could happen in America. “If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,” he tells Kroft. “I would probably sack electric power on the U.S. East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.” If hackers did attack the U.S. power grid, “The United States is not prepared for such an attack.” says McConnell.
Posted by: LED

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 01:03 AM

All the more reason to have a well designed home with proper ventilation/insulation I suppose. Up until the 1950's wasn't every home built that way?
Posted by: Susan

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 02:19 AM

"Up until the 1950's wasn't every home built that way?"

No. There were homes built long before then that had no insulation at all.

My mother lived in a house in Las Vegas that was built right after WWII. I moved there in 1989 to fix it up for her so she could get a decent price. This is an area that has temperature extremes of 0ºF to 116ºF (18ºC to 47ºC). There was no insulation anywhere in the house, top, bottom or sides. I made enough tips on the first New Years to call in the blow-in insulation guy to at least get it into the ceiling. The house also had no built-in source of heat, and faced east toward tall trees.

I don't know when the fanaticism about building every house to face the street (instead of the sun) started, but it was over 100 yrs ago. I can't believe that people had never noticed the advantages of solar gain prior to the 1960s (even though it is still ignored by most builders today, if the PNW is any indication).

Cody Lundin was talking about the house he had built in his last book (When All Hell Breaks Loose), and he has no mechanical heating or cooling, and that's Arizona.

My dream: straw bale/passive solar.

Sue
Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 02:55 AM

A bigger problem might be remotely turning off power & disabling the "smart meter" on your house.

A few months ago a paper was presented on the security of these devices: there was none. Anyone on your leg of the system can send a command to your meter to turn off power to your house.

Worse: there is a firmware upgrade command, also unprotected. After turning off power an attacker can load garbage over the meter's firmware, completely disabling it, meaning that the power company must send someone put to physically _replace_ the meter to turn power back on (the meter cannot be repaired on site - it must be replaced).

This is a doomsday scenario if carried out in Phoenix around noon on a 120F day. A coordinated attack on the system in several areas should easily overwhelm the number of workers available to replace the meters as well as the number of working meters in stock (all of which will be easily killed smart meters too).
Posted by: scafool

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 04:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Dagny
“If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,” he tells Kroft. “I would probably sack electric power on the U.S. East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.” If hackers did attack the U.S. power grid, “The United States is not prepared for such an attack.” says McConnell.


Aw heck, all we have to do is flick a couple of switches in Quebec to do that.
Posted by: Desperado

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 01:09 PM

Originally Posted By: scafool
Originally Posted By: Dagny
“If I were an attacker and wanted to do strategic damage to the United States, I would either take the cold of winter or the heat of summer,” he tells Kroft. “I would probably sack electric power on the U.S. East Coast, maybe the West Coast and attempt to cause a cascading effect.” If hackers did attack the U.S. power grid, “The United States is not prepared for such an attack.” says McConnell.


Aw heck, all we have to do is flick a couple of switches in Quebec to do that.


Didn't that already happen?
Posted by: MDinana

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: scafool

Aw heck, all we have to do is flick a couple of switches in Quebec to do that.


I dunno... wouldn't all the Canuck's suddenly start sweating to death from hyper-functioning home furnaces if that happened? Kind of an accidental mass heat-stroke disaster?

wink
Posted by: Desperado

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: MDinana
Originally Posted By: scafool

Aw heck, all we have to do is flick a couple of switches in Quebec to do that.


I dunno... wouldn't all the Canuck's suddenly start sweating to death from hyper-functioning home furnaces if that happened? Kind of an accidental mass heat-stroke disaster?

wink



Nah, even the separatists are smart enough to use gas or fuel oil heat. That total electric crap is expensive!
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 11:42 PM

Depends. I seem to recall that Quebecers use electricity for heat quite a lot, because of the huge hydroelectric resources they have. This was the preferred/subsidized choice for a long time.

In the Maritimes (East Coast), I think heating oil is the preferred choice.

In Alberta, it's natural gas all the way. We have a large domestic supply, and it's easy to dig pipelines in that good glacial clay.

On Vancouver Island, the only way to dig pipelines is with dynamite. I think that propane, often supplemented with a wood stove, is pretty common.

Aren't you glad you asked? whistle
Posted by: Dagny

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/08/09 11:45 PM


I watched the 60 Minutes segment tonight.

Instructive. It should have given a few million people something to think about.

Perhaps some of them will be Googling tonight and find this forum.





Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 01:00 AM

I saw the show but was disappointed that they didn't touch on some of the underlying factors of how we got here. Simply put the move to automation and remote control of machinery has been a result of a desire to reduce labor costs, and de-unionization.

None of this was a problem in the 70s. Yes, in part because computer and networking technology didn't exist but a large factor in this is simply because power plants, generation stations and switch-yards were largely operated manually.

One of the most powerful security measures is manual control. Common sense, alertness, eyes and ears on site, are hard to remotely hack.

I'm not advocating going back to total manual control. Humans get tired, bored, lose alertness, get distracted. Automated systems are always alert 24/7. Automation has been, for the most part, beneficial. But computers don't have common sense. They are quite credulous. The strongest security is the combination of the 24/7 alertness and memory of computers with the common sense and intuitive insight of a human operator.
Posted by: UpstateTom

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 05:28 AM

There are a lot of reasons we have the risk we do. One is that the loads on the transmission lines are higher, so the entire grid is less resistant to damage than in years past. Another is that people connected utility computers to the Internet. Probably the same folks that decided it was a good idea to put tile over drywall in a shower.

This threat should be filed under "Yet another reason not to have war with China."

Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 12:21 PM


Then of course there is the old fashioned way of taking down the electricity grid using small quantities of C4 on each leg of an unguarded pylon on the transmission line interconnectors a few miles from all the Nuclear Generation Stations in a timed coordinated attack around the country. A Nuclear station at near maximum output (esp Pressuried Water Reactors) may have trouble coping with an instantaneous no load situation leading to a potential thermal runaway. Reacting to this type of catastrophic nuclear power station emergency such as another Chernobyl or 3 mile island with the nation without an electricity power grid would be extremely difficult especially if in the midst of a very cold winter where transportation network may be affected due to winter storms.




Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

may have trouble coping with an instantaneous no load situation leading to a potential thermal runaway.

A "thermal runaway" in a nuclear reactor (do you mean a power excursion?) is a problem in the reactor, not the electricity-generating part of the plant. You can't induce a power excursion via sudden "no-load" situation.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 01:40 PM

Quote:
You can't induce a power excursion via sudden "no-load" situation.


The Chernobyl accident (power excursion) was the result of a controlled emergency shut down test, that would occur (needed in the event of a no load situation).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Planning_the_test_of_the_safety_device

Although the Russian reactor did not have a containment vessel and has been criticised for being an unsafe design compared to the US designed PWR, it could be argued that a containment vessel may have resulted in the much more catastrophic ' China Syndrome ' type accident that was only barely avoided in the 3-mile island accident a few years before.

Posted by: benjammin

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 06:25 PM

Au contraire, most of the power would go to an automatic shunt system to earth ground in the event the grid was lost. I think you'll find many electrical generating systems have a shunt capability and/or a phasing offset designed to neutralize the no-load flyback and over-voltage runaway.

Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/09/09 08:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

The Chernobyl accident (power excursion) was the result of a controlled emergency shut down test, that would occur (needed in the event of a no load situation).

Chernobyl wasn't on their grid at the time. Nothing anyone did on their grid would have made any difference.

That accident required a lot more than loss of the water pumps for 30 seconds. Normally that alone would not have resulted in a failure.

Quote:

Although the Russian reactor did not have a containment vessel and has been criticised for being an unsafe design compared to the US designed PWR, it could be argued that a containment vessel may have resulted in the much more catastrophic ' China Syndrome ' type accident that was only barely avoided in the 3-mile island accident a few years before.

Chernobyl and TMI were completely unrelated failures, with entirely unrelated lessons to be learned. It's not only wrong but _dangerous_ to lump them together since understanding one does nothing to prevent recurrence of the other.

A western-style containment system might not have contained a power excursion on Chernobyl's scale but it would not have hurt. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine any scenario at TMI, including total core melt, where lack of containment would actually have helped.
Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/10/09 01:41 AM

I did not see the 60-minutes report. But Wired has a followup article pointing out that the Brazilian blackout in 2007 was traced back to poorly maintained insulators on high voltage lines, and Wired provides links back to the Brazilian regulatory agency's report and formal notice on fines to the grid operator (hope your Portuguese is in good shape!)
Posted by: UpstateTom

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/10/09 04:42 AM

I think the plants would be fine if something happened to the grid. I would expect that both 9 Mile Point and Vermont Yankee both disconnected during the big northeast blackout a couple of years ago. That's the way the system is supposed to work - when in doubt, disconnect so you don't burn stuff up. Even the smallest of the cogen plants have to have gear to sense being out of sync or the grid being down and immediately disconnect.

Likewise, when we had a big ice storm up north a few years ago, it took out the transmission lines in northern NY, but the rest of the grid worked fine. The bad parts just disconnected themselves or were disconnected.

So to me it seems designed with protection and redundancy for physical problems, but not so much problems with the central control, ie computers.
Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/10/09 08:13 AM

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor is referring to Chernobyl's decision to test Plan C (diesel generators) for powering the reactor cooling pumps. There was a 30-second startup delay in the diesels and incredibly, no one had thought to see if that was a problem during the design or provisioning of the plant. So they decided to test it at a scheduled shutdown. Failure of grid power (Plan A) and the plant's normal generation gear (Plan B) is what Plan C is for.

The test failed but that didn't cause the disaster - they were already at low power. The power excursion happened when they tried to shut down the reactor. They were doomed an hour or more earlier when the control rods were nearly fully removed and no one wondered if getting minimal reactor power with the controls wide open was a warning sign...

It likely would have gone boom! if they had just shut down the reactor instead of starting the diesel generator test but not if they had been at normal operating power (maybe damaged the core, but no boom!) or if a bunch of other things had been done differently.

The bottom line is that even Soviet reactors of the Chernobyl-era could cope with loss of grid power and loss of their own normal power generation. What they couldn't cope with is being run below minimum power for hours and then suddenly shut down.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/10/09 12:30 PM

The whole Internet hacker bringing down the grid is being wholly overplayed. It is just being touted as an excuse for the potential failings of an old and unfunded and poorly maintained network. Its easy to blame the computer hacker from Ulan Bator sitting in his Yurt for when the US grid falls over. The same situation is being repeated here in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/01/winter-crisis-gas-supplies

There is a direct relationship between profit, operating cost and safety.

As for the nuclear power station issue, it is unlikely that that a nuclear power station will go bang if an emergency shutdown is called for. But it is not highly unlikely or impossible, the events at 3 mile island and Chernobyl have shown that it is possible. Indeed Chernobyl had shown that testing the emergency shutdown of the reactor to implement a safety procedure eventually led to the reactor going bang.

The 3 mile island event was just a incredulous as Chernobyl, as the operators didn't understand the status of one panel indicator in the control room. Even worse, safety critical engineering systems just simply failed and were known to fail such as the pilot-operated relief valve PORV. Even the primary feedwater pump system failed.

Quote:
Once the primary feedwater pump system failed, three auxiliary pumps activated automatically. However, because the valves had been closed for routine maintenance, the system was unable to pump any water. The closure of these valves was a violation of a key NRC rule, according to which the reactor must be shut down if all auxiliary feed pumps are closed for maintenance. This failure was later singled out by NRC officials as a key one, without which the course of events would have been very different.[9] The pumps were activated manually eight minutes later, and manually deactivated between 1 and 2 hours later,[9] as per procedure, due to excessive vibration in the pumps.[



Quote:
A lamp in the control room, designed to light up when electric power was applied to the solenoid that operated the pilot valve of the PORV, went out, as intended, when the power was removed. This was incorrectly interpreted by the operators as meaning that the main relief valve was closed, when in reality it only indicated that power had been removed from the solenoid, not the actual position of the pilot valve or the main relief valve. Because this indicator was not designed to unambiguously indicate the actual position of the main relief valve, the operators did not correctly diagnose the problem for several hours.


Even more telling;

Quote:
The Kemeny Commission noted that Babcock and Wilcox's PORV valve had previously failed on 11 occasions, 9 of them in the open position, allowing coolant to escape. More disturbing, however, was the fact that virtually the entire sequence of events at TMI had been duplicated 18 months earlier at another Babcock and Wilcox reactor, owned by Davis-Besse. The only difference was that the operators at Davis-Besse identified the valve failure after 20 minutes, where at TMI it took 2 hours and 20 minutes; and the Davis-Besse facility was operating at 9% power, against TMI's 97%. Although Babcock engineers recognised the problem, the company failed to clearly notify its customers of the valve issue


Yet these known issues were not acted on.

All I was suggesting was that a no load situation may result in a catastrophic disaster for a nuclear power station. The emergency shutdown procedure may start a chain of incorrect decision making and the engineering failures of critical safety systems, which may have not even been foreseen. Even as something as simple as the emergency diesel generator set not starting up simply because someone had pilfered the diesel. wink

An example of something similar was the test firing of a Royal Navy anti shipping guided missile (Harpoon) which failed. A senior ranking RN officer had aquired the then new missile 128Mbyte SDRAM DIMMs for his own personal computer.




Posted by: benjammin

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/10/09 02:49 PM

Yep, load loss won't scram the plant, it is how the operators react to the load loss that would be the likely cause of a plant critical event (not a criticality!).

Posted by: Dagny

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/11/09 12:31 AM

This just happened this evening:



Brazil's 2 largest cities hit by blackouts

Nov 10 08:19 PM US/Eastern

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) - Brazil's two largest cities have been hit by a massive blackout that has also affected other parts of Latin America's largest nation.

Media reports say problems at a huge hydroelectric dam are to blame for the electrial outages affecting large parts of Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and other cities in several states.

The G1 Web site of Globo TV says Brazil lost 17,000 megawatts of power after an unspecified problem happened at the Itaipu dam that straddles the border of Brazil and Paraguay.

Officials did not immediately comment on Tuesday's outages. The blackouts came three days after CBS's "60 Minutes" news program reported several past Brazilian power outages were caused by hackers. Brazilian officials played down the report.
Posted by: James_Van_Artsdalen

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/11/09 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: benjammin
Yep, load loss won't scram the plant, it is how the operators react to the load loss that would be the likely cause of a plant critical event (not a criticality!).

Loss of grid power might well be a mandatory SCRAM event - if you lose the grid you've lost Plan A for powering the reactor cooling pumps, and if you later have to shut down you'll lose Plan B before that shutdown finishes and be down to Plan C. A SCRAM right away (when there's no load anyway) lets you complete all this before something else goes wrong, and saves nuclear fuel.

Many SCRAMs are automatic anyway - at TMI the computers successfully shut down the reactor at the start. It was decay heat the operators were struggling against. At Chernobyl the automatic SCRAM was disabled because the system would not permit such a test situation...

I found one reference to the presentation at Black Hat on taking over smart meters & shutting off power city-wide: Buggy 'smart meters' open door to power-grid botnet
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/11/09 09:07 PM


Hmm, No doubt the Brazilian power outage will be attributed to as an ominous cyber warrior attack on a friendly US ally. The reality is probably somewhat more down to earth; the outage occurred during the TV showing of one of the most popular soap operas in Brazil, when everyone was settling down to watch, no doubt with the air conditioning turned up and electric kettle turned on for that sit down cup of coffee whilst most Brazilian women begin to live their lives vicariously through the one eyed monster in the corner of the living room.

Posted by: Dagny

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/18/09 01:58 PM

The 60 Minutes story is generating more scrutiny on Capitol Hill.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125850773065753011.html

* NOVEMBER 18, 2009

FBI Suspects Terrorists Are Exploring Cyber Attacks

"The FBI is aware of and investigating individuals who are affiliated with or sympathetic to al Qaeda who have recognized and discussed the vulnerabilities of the U.S. infrastructure to cyber-attack," Mr. Chabinsky told the committee, without providing details.

Such infrastructure could include power grids and transportation systems.

The control systems of U.S. infrastructure as well as money transfers are now connected directly or indirectly to the Internet. Hackers have been able to penetrate computer systems running components of the U.S. electric grid as well as divert bank transfers.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: 60 Minutes: power grid vulnerability, plus - 11/18/09 03:08 PM


Quote:
The 60 Minutes story is generating more scrutiny on Capitol Hill.


Jeyes will not only clear the Al Qaeda cyber warrior infiltrators from the interweb tubes but will also clean and freshen the interweb tubes as well. wink