National Park permits - arggggggghhhhh...

SO there is this canyon in Zion NP that I was dying to do for quite a while. On my previous 2 visits to Zion I really didnt get to do things involving ropes so this was about to be a technical trip. It happens that Zion reserves certain amount of permits for each section of the park in advance but there is about 20 permits available each day for a specific canyon/trip (very fair). Window that sells permits opens at 7 am so on my first day I get there at 6 and there is 10 people ahead of me. Pretty much its a mized crowd doing different hikes so my chances are good. Well I was wrong some guy gets 4 permits, other guy gets 6 and so on so I didnt get what I wanted. Well not a big whoop. Next day I'm going to be smarter and get up at 4 am to get there. When I get to the permit window there are already 12 people camped out with pads, sleeping bags, chairs etc etc. First guy walks up to the window and asks for 10 permits another asks for 9 and this is it... Third day is the same. I was furious since there are signs all over the place saying no camputs and about prosecution and being removed from the line. When I arrived at Zion and walked up to the ranger desk in the middle of the day lady gave me a speech about permits and if she catches me camping outside her window I will be removed from the park and fined. But still I can live with that but what gets me is some guy buying half the permits avail just by himself. If ya want to climb with group of 10 than get the group of 10 up at 4 am and make them stand in line. Didnt get to climb what I wanted but positive side to it is that I get to go back to Zion again.

SOme pics from the trip:
http://brunerdog.tripod.com/utah/index.htm

argggggh + 1!

We get the same thing on a lot of the parks in Canada.
What makes it even worse is in some Provinces they let Guide/Outfitter companies buy the permits up a year ahead of time for the tourists. It can be really frustrating.

My actions following such an experience would be...extreme.
Feeling your anger, friend.

-Blast

Sounds to me like Zion NP should consider a more equitable permit system. In the PNW we have an over-hiked sensitive zone known as the Enchantments, and they have a pretty good - at least pretty fair - system for allocating who gets overnight camping permits. Its one per person/group per year. You best apply for your permit in February, and winners are drawn by lottery. You're not guaranteed your preferred dates. However, a certain number of permits are still allocated every day, at 7am or so, also by random drawing of who is present. Folks will also push the permit system at the limits - there has been alot of day hikers who travel through the area without camping (a fairly strenuous dayhike), and that has a definite impact on a fragile area. It will cut back on the number of camping permits allowed, or eventually they'll just not allow day hikers.

Anyway, it cuts down on the anger factor by alot. And I don't think the Park employees come off like Nazis for administering the whole thing by these rules. Everyone gets a fair shot. http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/wenatchee/passes/enchantments/index.shtml.

Maybe Zion's permit system is messed up by commercial, i.e. guide interests. A guide who can only get one permit a year (or week, month, day) doesn't do business in that part of the park. Well, probably these canyons will get so over-used that the park will have to find that traffic unsustainable. Cool down, and write the park ranger, and suggest that their current system is tailored to make people angry. they probably know that, but won't change anything until enough people complain.

That's ridiculous!

I'm glad it pretty much worked out.

As much as I might get outraged It might be useful to consider how the rangers see it. Generally they don't get to set policy. They are charged with enforcing rules that they didn't write and which they might object.

I once talked to a ranger who had to call several families that had scheduled outings up to a year in advance and tell them that 'something had come up and they no longer had a permit'. So sorry. The inside on that was a senator decided on the spur of the moment that they wanted to use the site. Politics, and the fact that the senator can cut USPS funding at will because he is on a particular committee, means he gets what he wants. All the rangers can do is smile at the senator and work hard to make it up to the families that got screwed over.

Of course even outside the politics and pressure no matter what system is in place someone will not like it. The rangers hear about it in no uncertain terms and all they can usually do is nod, smile and take it as gracefully as they can manage. Rangers aren't all great guys, they have their share of SOBs, but I don't envy their position and considering the situation it is a wonder that many are as nice as they are.

Which permit were you trying to get? I just did the Subway last month and had to go through the same thing. I ended up planning the trip for a Friday in order to increase my chances of getting a permit, but that meant I had to leave Wednesday night and drive through the night to get to the permit office at 5am. I hate the permit system too, but I can understand it is a necessary evil. Without those restrictions, it would end up being like some of the other popular attractions where you would be waiting in line on the hike with hundreds (sometimes thousands) of other people. And for those slot canyons, it can become really dangerous to have a human traffic jam down there.

I'm sure you know, there are three different ways to get the permit. Reservations (which are usually booked months in advance), lottery system, and walk in. That means you really need to plan ahead of time, and it takes all the spontaneity out of the trip, but at least it does give other non-local people a chance of getting in. If you can, have multiple options so if your first choice is booked, just go down the list. If you're flexible chances are you will be able to get a permit for at least one of your choices. And if you go during a weekday, your chances are much better than trying during a holiday weekend.

1 permit per person wopuld be a good rule

+1. If ten are going to do the hike/climb/etc then ten can get their butts out of bed and stand in line. I've played this game for years at Zion, Grand Canyon, Canyonlands and I totally understand the frustration. The tactic that I've employed for years is to go off season. Zion weather is great in Oct, Nov.

Yeah I was trying to score Subway too and arrived midweek but not much luck. I understand the overcrowding issue and have no problem with permit system in general. My beef is with walk ins distribution and total disregard for rules that in this case Zion NP set.

I know about lottery and reservations but with FDNY and summer months vacation requests I didn't know until 30 days prior if I got time off or not.

Like I said good thing is that I get to go back there...

Been there, done that, most often at the Tuolumne Meadows trailhead permit office. Perhaps the park employee needs to show up at the scheduled opening time, take down the names of those physically present at that time, using a numbered roster, and then randomly and openly draw numbers and issue permits to those whose number get drawn, until the quota is filled.

They could use any equivalent system, such as showing up with the proverbial hat and allowing those present at the time to draw from it, so long as it eliminates any advantage for early arrival, while granting everyone who shows up by the scheduled opening time an equal chance for a permit.

One problem is hiking partners and groups. Perhaps, they could issue permits to a hiking partner if one hiker's name is drawn, provided that both hikers are actually present. Showing up with a buddy or spouse, then only drawing one permit, is a real bummer. Groups are even more problematic. Larger parties really need to make advance reservations.

I'm curious, after you were denied permits that first day, did you try and get permits for the following day at that time? They let you get permits up to 24 hours in advance at the walk-in window. It's strange that you weren't able to get it three days in a row, that was either a really busy holiday weekend or you had some really bad luck.

As much as I hate permits for the outdoors, I think the system they are currently using is about as fair as it can be. 1/3 of the permits are available by reservation, so at least it gives out of towners a chance of being able to plan a trip without risk. 1/3 is also available by lottery, so anybody has a chance of winning. And the last 1/3 is walk-in so people who can't plan months ahead still have a small chance of being able to do the trip. I've thought about how it can be improved and I can't really think of any better way of doing it that would be fair to everyone.

Yeah man three days and no permit. Just bad luck.

I'm not blaming the system. I think it is fair and the best we can come up with under circumstances. What bothers me are people grabbing 10 permits in one shot or the fact that even with "strict" rules of no camp outs outside the window people still do it. Just that mate. It just pisses me off when I get there at 4 am have a line of 4 guys ifo me that slept outside the window and first two grab all the permits.

Don't even get me started on speculations if they were local guides or not...