I think I was discriminated against

OK, I want to know if I'm over reacting.

Went to the movies this afternoon, been to this theater about once a month for over a year. Never ONCE has anyone said anything about my Jumbo. One of the friends with me carries EDC in a mussette bag, he's been going there much longer than I have as he is a local to this area.

We buy our tickets, and are about to get them torn up when someone walking past snarls at us we have to put our bags in the car, and keeps going past. She doesn't identify herself, and she is not polite. The kid tearing tickets shrugs and refuses to take our tickets- I wanted to talk to the manager. Turns out that the person who had spoken was the manager. When I asked her name, she did not provide. When I stated that I've come in a number of times, and the bag is in my lap the entire time, she says simple it is too big. I point out to a lady going through the line with a day pack 4-5 times as big as my bag of tricks PLUS a purse and commented that I see several women with bags as large if not larger than mine going through. The manager proceed to tell me that a "reasonable" bag was allowed, but refused to clarify what "reasonable" is. At that point I asked if it was because I was a man that was being told I could not bring in my bag, while women with larger bags could pass, I was told "ok, but this is the one time."

Now, I feel like I've been told that because I have a beard rather than breasts, I can't have "purse"-type bag. I fully respect that it is a private business, I have no problem with that, but since this is the first time and I feel that my friend and I were singled out for special treatment that I have grounds for complaint.

I'm not asking for a refund. I'm not asking for free tickets. (It WAS a good movie.) I'm asking for equal treatment and an apology.

So my question is, who to complain to? My first instinct it start at the state AG's office, but because I'd rather not just drop the bomb as my first rebuttal, should I bother to also file a complaint with the better business folks along with the ownership of the theater. Is it reasonable to tell them that have ten business days from the time the letter is posted to respond in writing to clarify if it is their corporate policy to irregularly apply their rules and to clarify specifically, in writing, what those rules are or I take it to the AG. Or is that temper and not logic talking?

Or am I being completely fireheaded?

Sounds like the manager had a bad case of bi%ch and was obviously applying some arbitrary, subjective "rule." If you do wish to file a complaint you may want to request to speak with the general manager, taking your complaint straight to the top. Okay, and now the question I've been dying to ask, how was the new Trek? Will old fans be disappointed or is it worth seeing?

Maybe stuff your Jumbo high up the front of your sweater or shirt, and, if asked, say you're with the circus and your name is Amazonia the Bearded Lady.

Interesting situation,

Before I complained beyond the individual company I would contact the Manager, General Manager or Owner to find out what exactly their policy is on carry-in bags and why they have this policy. It is far better to get it in writing now than to go to the authorities and have the business write (or re-write) the policy in their favour later.

The policy on bags could be a safety concern (firearms, explosives, alcohol), that a bag may take-up a second seat, or that you may bring in your own food and not use their snack bar?

I do agree that some women I know have purses so big that I could camp out of them for a weekend!

Please keep us in the loop,

Mike

This sounds reasonable. I'd find the address of the movie chain manager/ and drop a note to them and just ask what their policy is and if it applies to both men and women. Should get you a quick response.

I'd have assumed they don't want bags brought in because they are probably filled with food and the theater makes $$$ selling extremely overpriced popcorn, pop, candy, etc.

You are certainly entitled to complain, but I'm surprised you'd want to take it in to begin with. I don't take a purse to the theater because I don't want to bother with it or set it on the sometimes skanky floor.

If I were the theater manager I'd respond by being more strict in banning bags. And I'd be having them searched.

Being discriminated for carrying a man-purse.

We have come a long way, baby.

:-)

Well, it certainly seems like a B.S. rule. Either it applies to everybody or it doesn't apply at all.

Seems to me you ran across a jerk by any standard. So, sending a well-crafted letter up the food chain is entirely appropriate. In my experience, sending by fax gets the best response, YMMV.

FWIW, if you're dressed well enough to pass for a travelling businessman, use the excuse "I have my corporate laptop in here; if it leaves my possession I could be fired."

Stick some fish tank air line on an N95 mask and tell them it is your air supply and nebulizer that you need because or your emphysema, asthma, and tuberculosis. Then proceed to either have a stress-induced asthma attack or cough on her.

Or you could follow the advice above and ask the company for a copy of their written policy on items allowed/not allowed in the

Yes, you have been discriminated against. I could make several comments stating support for it but that may rile things up a little and cause me to be brutally, and justifiably, spanked by our beneficient moderators.

You could raise a stink but I suspect that, in the end, your better off just taking your lumps and moving on.

The motivation for treating you differently could be any number of reasons. They could have thought your smuggling in food or drinks. Most movie theaters make a good part of their money at the snack bar and, even though I have never run afoul of them, I suspect that theaters try to discourage the import of food and drink.

Large bags may also be discouraged for showings that are full to limit conflicts and to speed the movement into and out of the theater. There may even be applicable fire laws.

There may also be some discrimination based on the perception of a male carrying what might be considered a 'purse' as gay. I had a friend who was beat up because he carried a 'purse'. In reality the guy is a diabetic and his 'purse' contained his meter, insulin and syringes. Bigots tend to overlook alternative explanations. Then again what a person's orientation may be shouldn't be an issue and if a guy wants to carry a bag people shouldn't read anything into it.

An alternative explanation might be that the manager has been overzealous in applying the warnings of anti-terrorism alerts. People bringing bulky bags into paces of assembly might, in some settings and times, be looked upon with suspicion. Packs, bags and anything but the smallest hand bags are often excluded in government buildings.

There is also a issue with homeless people coming in to hang out and enjoy the AC. Once in they sneak from theater to theater to maximize their time while limiting the cost. Such patrons have a tendency to be disruptive and unpredictable.

Any, all, or none, of these explanations may apply. I think your within your rights to complain. A corporate run theater might best be addressed by way of their corporate office. The managers are largely figureheads. If the theater is locally owned You could speak to the owner. But I suspect that, at best, you get a polite brush-off and a movie pass. Hardly worth the time and effort in my book.

Just a brief note, private businesses most certainly do NOT have the right to turn away anyone for any reason. See a copy of the Americans with disabilities act for more information.

I'd take the original matter up with at least one higher level of management before caving in. A brief note or a phone call might not only resolve the issue it might get you a couple of tickets for a future show for your trouble. If nothing else, at least you'll know which theatre to NOT spend any more money at.

The woman was being the Big B, and I don't mean Boss.

Actually, you could have some fun with this... (insert evil smile here)

The next time you're going to that theatre, remove from the bag anything that looks like a weapon, drugs or firestarters.

Then add a few extras. They should be as senseless and inoffensive as you can make them: a small teddy bear, a couple of adult diapers, a whole box of paper clips, a notepad and pens, a wool cap, some 1/4" carriage bolts, etc, twelve pairs of prescription glasses from a thrift shop. Etc.

Then walk in. If they pull the same thing this time, politely ask them to call the police, or ask if they want you to do it. Let the police search your bag.

She will probably end up looking like an idiot.

Sue, who likes to tease fools

I would first complain to higher managment. But one would do it as a solicitors letter.
For:
Sex discrimination.
Libel/slander/defamation/breach of her duty of care to you.

Make it extremly clear that you will have satisfaction. One way or another, and the only satisfaction you will accept is her dismissal.

I think you're over-reacting. The manager was caught enforcing a vague no handbags policy, and gave up when you called her on it. While she is the manager she is probably not the source of the policy - she certainly wasn't the source of proper or equiptable enforcement. If you return to this theater you will probably not be called on the presence of your Jumbo again. I suggest continue going to the movies as you usually do, and if you get called out again for carrying your Jumbo, then take it up with whatever level of management you want.

fwiw the Jumbo is advertised as a great CCW pack, maybe the manager recognized it as such. If they had a no firearms policy, it would have been correct for her to point this out to you, and ask for any firearms to be kept outside the theater. (Since this is a purely hypothetical issue let's avoid the discussion of whether a public theater can or should enforce a ban on firearms).

JohnE, the ADA has nothing to do with this situation, he wasn't asking for an accomodation (seating for mobility impaired, assistance for hearing impaired etc) to view the movie.

A Jumbo is one of those military-style bags, isn't it? If you were profiled as a trouble-maker, I doubt you could claim sexual discrimination. Legally I don't think you have a leg to stand on, so if you take it further you probably should be very, very polite about it.

Personally I like to be discrete and low-profile. I don't want stuff I carry to be upsetting movie theatre staff; that's not what I'm about.

I don't think the state AG is the way to go.

Go to the district manager of the theater. My brother used to work for Edward's Cinema (about 8 years ago), and most theaters are set up in a heriarchy. I'd go a day when this gal isn't on duty, talk to the GM on duty and ask him for the District Manager's contact info.

And probably ask for the name of the manager you had problems with, so you can complain properly. Follow up the phone call with a written letter for her personnel file.

My point about the ADA was that it is one example where private businesses do not have the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason as someone asserted earlier. Never claimed or implied that the original poster should attempt to use the ADA in this case.

Well, since you asked, I think I would have to vote for over-reacting.
Obviously, I was not there to experience the whole situation, and I might have felt the same in your shoes.
But, I just don't know if it would be worth my time to challenge or argue that any further.

For a movie theater, I would probably carry a small flashlight in one of my pockets, so I could find the door in the event of an emergency... and then get to my bag/supplies in my car if needed.
Or course, if you're talking about a "big city public transportation" scenario where you have no backup available... that would present a whole different challenge.

One thing to keep in mind is that dealing with the "public" can be a really tough job sometimes; and there is no telling what that manager may have had to deal with recently (or earlier that day) that may have triggered a negative reaction to your bag.
Unfortunately, she may not have handled the situation in the best way; but, unless she was just way out of line, I would probably just try to give her a break and move on.

No. You are not over-reacting.

I had something similar happen to me.

Went into a local grocery store and the rent-a-cop very forcefully told me I had to leave my Fatboy at the front desk.

Being caught off guard since this was the first problem I had is the several years I've been carrying a "man-bag", I left my bag at the front desk after pulling my wallet out, completed my purchase with everyone looking at me, and developed a serious case of the reda$$ on the drive home.

There were women there that had purses big enough to fit me and my Fatboy in walking around unchallenged...

Called the manager, found out that was the store policy.

I raised hell, got no apology, and will not be back in that store ever...

Since then, I've been practicing in my head for when the next time someone calls me down for carrying it... if they want my business, then they want my bag...

Lon, that is the one excuse I won't accept. I can take anything else, but NOT "my day sucks and you were a handyvictim". I work tech support. My customers lie to me, cry to me, threaten me, and refuse to listen to me when I'm trying save their jobs and their 30 year contracts when they've broken federal law. And that doesn't even include the people who say "how do I right click?" and "do I have to be online to send email?" I have to be nice, I have to be polite, I have to take it with a smile and keep rolling and not let it effect my next call. It isn't that hard to be professional.

Sorry, bad customer service annoys me. Good customer service is something I talk to managers about to- I'm also a pretty good tipper. But the thing that set me off was that if my Jumbo isn't reasonable, then why is a backpack several times larger? Or does "reasonable" change when you have a beard rather than breasts?

I own an olive green "Jumbo' but do not EDC it or any other bag, I do the "scattered about my pockets" method.

Since this post I noticed that many large stores in my area have a "No Backpack/Duffle Bag" sign at the front enterance, I suspect it is to cut-down on shoplifting.

At one local grocery store near the high school, there was a heap of teenager's backpacks in the lobby, while the kids were in eating at the deli snack bar. Knowing the value of the equipment in an EDC bag there is no way I would be leaving my bag in this unsecure pile.

I saw LOTS of BIG purses carried by ladies in all of these stores?

Mike

You could press the issue. But what do you hope to gain? Just don't go there anymore if the policy bothers you, or if the way they enforced it bothered you. It doesn't sound like the lady was very nice per your description. But people with a bad attitude are nothing new, and you probably won't change them by complaining about it, you'll just give them an even worse attitude. There really is nothing to be gained for you here. I don't think there is a greater cause "men carrying bags" that will ultimately benefit. I'm not trying to make light of your experiece, but it was one lady in one movie theater. A lady that you probably don't want to interact with again. So don't. Just go to a different theater next time and save yourself the aggrivation.

{ Ironraven, you said } Or does "reasonable" change when you have a beard rather than breasts?
[ sorry, I haven't figured out how to copy quotes in the neat way on this forum ]

Yes, I guess maybe "reasonable" does change, depending on appearance or perception.
Since men tend to be stronger and more aggressive than women, it seems natural for most people to be more cautious or concerned when "sizing up" an encounter or situation with a man. An attractive woman might have a bazooka in her purse; but would probably not attract the same attention as "that rough looking guy with the beard". [Just making a point, you're probably a very clean-cut guy, and not "rough" looking.]

Besides, as creative as this bunch around ETS is, we can probably come up with countless ways to carry the things that we need, in ways that could be more concealed (or non-threatening) in a retail/public environment.

I am not saying that manager handled your situation correctly. I too get very disgusted with persons that are rude, and I sympathize with your frustration in that regard.
I just think your time might be better spent in thinking of ways to avoid your EDC being perceived as a violation/threat; instead of pursuing satisfaction from being wronged by that person and/or the theatre policies.

As a constant movie goer I see all types of personal belongings brought in. I always take my EDC bag with me, though mine is an orange Mountain Hardware backpack. And admittedly I do bring in some soda and Dots, but I will usually buy a small popcorn to get me through the previews and satisfy my cravings.

Go to the HQ with a strongly worded letter. Expect no results. Other than that maybe try a different EDC bag...a clutch maybe.

I've got a great comeback. If it were me, next time I would find a friend who trains dogs for the blind and ask to borrow one, then put on the dark glasses and go to the theater and see what they say. On the one hand, no one would want to challenge you on something like that, but then they have to reconcile why a blind man would go to a theater in the first place. Let's see how the manager would deal with that dilema. Take along a few friends with cell phone cameras and just in case she makes a big stink about it have them whip out the phones and act like they are videoing the whole thing. That would surely pickle her good.

Or you can just do like me and sneak everything in. Unless they do a pat-down, they aren't gonna even know to ask the question. Yeah, it doesn't address the obvious discriminatory aspects she presented you with, but I prefer to simply go around the obstacle if I can, unless I want to address the principle of the matter, which usually isn't worth my time anymore. Besides, it feels good to be able to get away with breaking their freakin' rules once in a while.

So are you bothered that you can't carry the big bag like women carry a purse or that you can't have your full complement? I don't like carrying a big bag in a crowded theater/crowd. I go with just my pocket EDC so I can move faster, sometimes speed is life.

However, I dislike the discrimination of allowing women big purses and denying men the same size bag for stuff -- but that's how societal norms are and policy probably allows women's purses due to those norms where management may have preferred to deny all bags. If you can get a copy of their written policy it might be an interesting read.

No I am not over reacting. A no bags policy is a no bags policy. That's irrespective of race, creed, colour, sex, religion or sexual polarity. To permit a woman to bring her bag in and then tell a man that he may not is blatant discrimination. It's exactly the same as allowing a lady with long hair in but refusing to admit men unless they have short hair.

Any one does that to me and I will make it my business to hammer them.

There is minor discrimination everywhere. It's just not worth fighting against for the little piddly things IMHO.

If it's hot downtown and I decide to take my shirt off in the park, probably nobody would hassle me about it. Were a woman to do that, they would probably be asked to cease and desist by some authority.

Is it discrimination? Yep. Is it worth fighting over? Nope (IMHO). It's called "society norms".

Leigh, please forgive me - I just noticed that my reply was addressed to your post, not to the original poster (ironraven). I meant to say that ironraven is over-reacting to this. I hadn't considered whether you are over-reacting or not, at all. Sorry about that.

My general point is that many cases of discrimination are transitory - a handbag policy may not be enforced often if at all. If the theater makes it their policy to prohibit handbags, they should do it for a good reason and do so consistently. No theater that I'm aware of does this though, and I don't think ironraven's theater is likely to do it if he goes back with his Jumbo to watch another movie. I do think that when someone does apply a policy you object to, its best to discuss it with that person or their manager, and not make more of the issue than what it appears to be. Threatening to sack a manager or cry discrimination doesn't really help anyone come to a reasonable conclusion. I don't think the basis for discrimination in this instance is related to race, creed, religion, etc etc, it is an inadequate and unenforceable policy on handbags, whoever carries them. In general I do not like to raise issues of discrimination unless the offense is repeatable and the impact is real. Otherwise we're left with the equivalent of that funny scene from The Holy Grail, where Dennis is creaming at King Arthur, "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" ironraven watched his movie with his Jumbo pack - quite possibly the offense if there was one has already been corrected, by ironraven.

Reminds me of the "Pez Dispenser" episode of the Seinfeld tv sitcom where an old guy comments on inequality between female and male kangaroos:

"The male kangaroo doesn’t have a pouch; only the female has it. So the male has pouch envy.'Why should she have this huge pouch, and I have nothing? I have things to carry, too. At least give me a pocket.'"

What, no one found my post funny? Is it monday? Jees!

I don't know how it works everywhere else Benjamin, but out here they would admit a blind person with a dog without batting an eye. At least locally (and this may be a national interpretation), Seattle-area stores don't stop any entry from anyone with a dog or other animal, as long as they contend the animal is to meant to assist them. Those restaurants that advertise "No Animals?" I have seen one restaurant admit a Helper Ferret to dine with its owner. I would think that actually walking into a theater with a dog would be pretty mundane by comparison. Sure, some folks will push it, but for the most part people really use these lizards, cats, dogs and ferrets to help them out. <shrug>

Besides, not everyone with a guide dog is totally blind, and the sight-impaired folks I know tend to pick up on more than I ever could. I suspect they can follow alot of movies alot better than I could.

Actually Ben, I was thinking I might add some Kotex. Let them get a look of the big guy with the big beard and mad scientist hair in a town with a pretty sizable transgender population. But that is just daring them.

I am confused by your post.

were you carrying food from outside vendor into the theater?

does the theater manager refuse to let you in because you carry large bag?

does the theater management afraid you carry a video camera into the theater?

That's partly because there is NO national standard for what a helper animal is. I took the Red Cross Shelter Manager course a while back - it was clear as day - someone claims that an Animal is a helper animal, you let the animal in. Next drill, we threw a wrench at them (we tried to arrange it for real) - a helper elephant. Would have been great publicity. The fun was not only throwing the curve of a helper elephant at the shelter manager - but they throwing the "Now you have to feed, water, and deal with the mess" element - getting extra staff, having the staff at HQ try to find out where to get food for an elephant, plus the trucks to deliver it, etc - basically, took the drill from "Yawn, we know how this plays out" to "NOW what do we do?"

Ever try to find out from the owner of the building your in (in this case a NYC public school) if the floor load rating of the building can even support the elephant before you let it in? Yes the shelter manager thought about it - had them open a ground floor room - if they had not, we where going to throw a building collapse at them - yes, we got creative

U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights Section





Americans with Disabilities Act


ADA Business BRIEF: Service Animals


Service animals are animals that are individually trained to perform tasks for people with disabilities such as guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling wheelchairs, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, or performing other special tasks. Service animals are working animals, not pets.



Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), businesses and organizations that serve the public must allow people with disabilities to bring their service animals into all areas of the facility where customers are normally allowed to go. This federal law applies to all businesses open to the public, including restaurants, hotels, taxis and shuttles, grocery and department stores, hospitals and medical offices, theaters, health clubs, parks, and zoos.





Caption: Businesses that serve the public must allow people with disabilities to enter with their service animal.


Businesses may ask if an animal is a service animal or ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform, but cannot require special ID cards for the animal or ask about the person's disability.


People with disabilities who use service animals cannot be charged extra fees, isolated from other patrons, or treated less favorably than other patrons. However, if a business such as a hotel normally charges guests for damage that they cause, a customer with a disability may be charged for damage caused by his or her service animal.


A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the animal is out of control and the animal's owner does not take effective action to control it (for example, a dog that barks repeatedly during a movie) or (2) the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.


In these cases, the business should give the person with the disability the option to obtain goods and services without having the animal on the premises.

Businesses that sell or prepare food must allow service animals in public areas even if state or local health codes prohibit animals on the premises.


A business is not required to provide care or food for a service animal or provide a special location for it to relieve itself.

Allergies and fear of animals are generally not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people with service animals.


Violators of the ADA can be required to pay money damages and penalties.






Caption: Service animals are individually trained to perform tasks for people with disabilities.


If you have additional questions concerning the ADA and service animals, please call the Department's ADA Information Line at (800) 514-0301 (voice) or (800) 514-0383 (TTY) or visit the ADA Business Connection at ada.gov.

Duplication is encouraged. April 2002

******************
As far as I know, Dogs, monkeys and miniature horses can be service animals, and there are prob more types of animals that qualify

So basically a person with an unauthenticated disability can trample all over my public rights without remunerating me or anyone else. That seems pretty discriminatory. So if I have an allergy to dogs and someone brings one to a restaurant where I am eating then I have to leave.

That kinda squelches the tolerance aspects towards disabled people a tad.

Perhaps Ironraven could borrow a Shetland pony to go with those dark glasses to go to the cinema next time, to see if he gets turned away..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/2954170.stm

*snorts*

One, several of my friends have negative history with horses.

Two, I can't ride a Shetland, I'd kill the poor thing.

A Morgan on the other hand....

Is petty discrimination worth fighting against? Yes.
As a student of history:
Little discrimination's become bigger discrimination's. Then full on discrimination.

Discrimination is a wonderful thing: It lets the petty, vicious, small minded and bigoted indulge themselves to the full. Right up until when decent ordinary people decide to "take steps" as it were.

Then the riot's start.....

"So basically a person with an unauthenticated disability can trample all over my public rights without remunerating me or anyone else. That seems pretty discriminatory. So if I have an allergy to dogs and someone brings one to a restaurant where I am eating then I have to leave... That kinda squelches the tolerance aspects towards disabled people a tad."

Are you trying to be funny again and I missed it?

You want to be paid a fee so someone who is paralyzed in three limbs and partially paralyzed in the fourth can have dinner like a white man? Excuse me?

When you see a blind person with a dog in a restaurant, an assistance dog huddling over a person having a seizure in the gutter, have to listen to the dog in the apartment next door barking to attract attention to his unconscious owner, maybe it would be better if you thought, "There but for the grace of God, go I", instead of "How much money will you pay me for having to be in this person's presence?"

Please forgive me if I've misunderstood and your comment was a joke. I'm just not in much of a joking mood lately, and must have missed your point.

Sue

Not quite, more like I am tired of having to pay for someone else's troubles. The notion of a disabled person paying me for some social privilege is abhorrent, but equally so that I must always pay for their convenience as well. Were the shoe on the other foot, I would not be comfortable with compelling other people to concede to my special needs and force them to accomodate me just so I can haved some special consideration at their involuntary expense. It's one thing to ask, quite another to insist. I don't mind compromising for a handicapped person, but I would rather they ask than to simply tell me I have to. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that I would much prefer that our society function as a whole more on that level than to insist that those more fortunate must always accede to the needs of those less so.

When I speak of remuneration, my frame of mind was from a legal standing. In terms of tort concessions, one party acquiring gains at the expense of another party usually invokes a remuneratory claim. Probably not the right model for the argument, but that was how my day went yesterday. More appropriately, I think the argument is who is to bear the burden for an individual's special needs in the public domain, and to what extent? Certainly many of the accomodations we as a society incorporate nowadays are prudent and reasonable, but when the law extends the rights of one set of individuals above the rights of the majority, and to the latter's debtriment, that I think is going too far. If we are going to allow handicapped people to have pets in public places, then there's no reason not to allow everyone to do so. Categorical exemptions of this nature just don't make any sense to me.

Gotta chime in here ben. I am in no way a great lover of people having critters in places they are not typically viewed as normal like some rich blond travelling with her cat or dog on an airplane because "I can't bear the thought of leaving my XXX in kennel while I'm away". I believe the animals in question are truly specially trained service animals; not pets. A pet is what I have; my two stupid dogs. They are basically noise-making mooches. I see no reason for some old lady carrying her "cute little dog" with her through a store. It is obvious the animal is a pet and the owners are usually too stupid to leave them at home when it is 90+ degrees when they have to run Wally World. That annoys the living snot out of me!! The other animals work for the benefit of their owners. When I see a service animal I give them plenty of room and let them do there job. As to the types of animals that are true service animals, that will always cause a rub.

Yes, I would tend to agree with your observation, and I would advocate that no one should be allowed to take their animal into public areas without some means of certification that the animal is trained properly for the environment and conditions it is likely to encounter.

My whole point, though, is it is unfair to grant rights to one group of people and not to the rest of us. Service animals do typically receive a level of training that often includes some form of certification, and if the authorities were to allow the same for non-service animals, then at least we can hope for some measure of equality. To categorically exempt any one group from the restrictions and limitations imposed on the rest of us is and will always be just as discriminatory, debtrimental and costly to our society as when the reverse is allowed.

What I wonder is this: If these people were not allowed to use/have service animals what are their prospects for independent living? Would they be relegated to moving into care facilities where they would have to "wait their turn" for an escort?

Anyway this whole thread is way off-topic. Yes, Ironraven was discriminated against.

good luck looking to make a discrimination case if you are a straight white male!

[quoThat isn't strictlyte=kevingg]good luck looking to make a discrimination case if you are a straight white male! [/quote]

That isn't strictly true. It's been done in the UK. What generally happens is that some white, straight male is passed over for a promotion (which he has a reasonable expectation of) in favour of some other ethnic group (OEG). For an unlawful reason. Like discrimination in favour of that group. Criteria for promotion is set higher for the WSM than the OEG etc, etc.

I have personally been in that situation. I was carrying out the same duties as a female member of staff and a male member of another ethnic group. The problem was that they were both one pay grade above me. Having checked the legal position, I objected to this on the grounds that UK law expressly forbids discrimination (other than under certain very tightly delimited circumstances)for sex, race, creed, religion, marital status or sexual orientation. Then I requested a formal meeting with my Line Manager and raised the matter with him. I got my promotion.

The important thing is to be very certain as to the legal position and to act in a reasonable none threatening manner. Give them the chance to be graceful.

I should also add that one has seen members of other ethnic group's being mistreated and I have always made it my business to step on such conduct. I have always taken the view that you promote on ability and track record only. Anything else is dishonorable and despicable.

Um, but in your scenario you had an allergy to dogs. Surely by your logic, your allergy is your problem? Why does your allergy trump the other fellow's blindness?

Again, with your allergy the shoe is on the other foot.

And if you're not allergic to dogs, why the fuss?

Generally a helper dog for the blind is not a "pet". In the UK (and I assume in the US) they are exceptionally well-trained, disciplined and obedient working animals. The benefit of allowing the dog is higher, and the cost is lower, then with an ordinary pet.

Umm, Leigh - how would you rationalize this position with your initial post on this thread, where you recommended this course of action in response to a theater manager asking a customer to leave their baggage outside?

Leigh [emphasis added]:
I would first complain to higher managment. But one would do it as a solicitors letter.
For:
Sex discrimination.
Libel/slander/defamation/breach of her duty of care to you.

Make it extremly clear that you will have satisfaction. One way or another, and the only satisfaction you will accept is her dismissal.


Requiring some $12/hr theater manager to be sacked in response to enforcing a no bags policy - is that graceful and non-threatening, or perhaps would it put their back up against a wall?

There are some letters that it is better to have written for you. Politely nasty. As apposed to nasty-nasty. Which will only get you arrested for threatening behaviour. It also gives notice that you are serious.

I have to point out that the Theater Manager was being a petty, bigoted tyrant. Towards men. If she was enforcing a no bags policy then she should be enforcing it according to law. With out distinction of race, sex etc.

In my case going nuclear would have been counterproductive. Unless they had told me to .... off. At that point I would have sort remedy through a court.

I think it is a difference in approach then - we had one point of view expressed, and you saw the manager as a petty, bigoted tyrant. I'd like to hear from the manager herself before deciding she was as harsh and oppressive as all that. With all due apologies to the original poster, I've been down the road with many complaints, too many to trust to any single side of the story. Are you sure the original poster didn't leave out some crucial element that could have raised the manager's suspicions about this particular patron with this particular bag (said suspicions being apparently addressed, otherwise he would have had his admission refused and ticket refunded)?

Same with her reaction, which happened to be towards a man. This one time, no other evidence of a similar reaction to towards any other man. Or, no evidence of a similar reaction to women carrying bags. No evidence at all basically, just an incident. Hardly enough to conclude that she was guilty of discrimination, based on sex, because she was talking to a man. Left to those criteria, everyone has a roughly 50:50 chance of being guilty of sex discrimination, instead of just being wrong this one time.

I would find out who owns the theater and start the complaints there. Then I would write a letter to the local newspapers and if your local TV station has a consumer advocate, I would give them a call. Finally I would ask some friends to take the same bag to the theater and see if there were any problems with the manager. If there are, let them go through the same complaint process. Bad publicity is anathema to businesses.