Winter Wonderland Trek

Today I decided that, given it was 15 outside with 15" of snow, it'd be a good time to do a practice run of what I plan to take to Alaska for my "airplane kit." Off to the local state park for an invigorating 2 mile hike!

In my daypack:
20-degree down sleeping bag
1 Liter titanium pot
MSR Whisperlite stove, with 350ml can of isopropane
GI poncho
NorthFace jacket... forget the name, but about the warmth of a
fleece jacket
"odds and ends" - knife, whistle, etc. The basic 10 Essentials

On me:
my PSK
my new Leatherman (thank you, girlfriend!)
my Benchmade Griptilian

I'm wearing:
Smartwool cap, under my Bailey "cowboy" hat
Nike winter-weight workout shirt
NF Hyvent shell
Running tights
BDU Pants
BDU ECWCS gore-tex pants
wool socks
Eddie Baur winter boots.
EMS glove liners, wool gloves, OP glove shells

Observations:
- it's actually easier to trudge through the snow than walk on the path made by XC skiiers. Not as much slipping.
- 15 is cold! Until you move, then somehow you sweat (I don't get it!)
-15 degrees gets cold real quick when you stop for lunch.
-A "dump bag" on your hip is a good idea. It would have been nice to take my hat or gloves off for a few minutes and not have to carry the items.
- 2 miles takes a while in snow. And works muscles not normally used in hiking. Lots more calf muscle than I would have expected.
- Civilian "MREs" aren't as user-friendly as the real kind. Amazing, huh?
-Snow boils fairly quickly.
- I could have used something to insulate my butt, besides my sleeping bag, during lunch.
-I was suprised how well the ECWCS pants did on keeping snow out of my boots and socks - the boots are only about as tall as a pair of hi-top basketball shoes

One thing I'd like to throw open for opinions. I was debating shelter options in this kit. I was initially hoping to take my 1-man tent and my 20 degree bag. While they both fit in this daypack, there isn't much room for anything else. I was also hoping to throw in a poncho-liner with my poncho, as both a sleeping layer, something to wear while hiking if it gets real cold, a ground pad when I stop, or a last ditch shelter. But, with this bag, I can't fit all 4 of those items. So do you you think I should:
A) leave the sleeping bag behind
B) Leave the tent behind
C) Leave the poncho and liner behind, and just deal with the lack of space in the backpack
D) buy a new backpack!

I'm personally leaning towards D, just guz I'm a gear [censored]. But the price is pretty taxing right now. Any thoughts on this?

Is it possible to strap the sleeping bag to the outside of the backpack?

A few compression straps and anything can be secured to a pack. Could you not secure the sleeping bag to the bottom of the pack?

As for being too warm and sweating, judging by the amount of clothes you were wearing, this does not surprise me. 15 F is equivalent to roughly 9 C. Near this temperature which we experienced yesterday while out hiking, both of us only had a lightweight long sleeved shirt, windbreaker, lightweight running tights and one pair of pants. We were warm but not overly. Granted once we stopped for any length of time, out came a sweater and toque.

My dump bag is my jacket, which has almost armpit to waist inside pockets that fits extra gear, mitts and a toque.

A small 18 to 24 inch piece of fleece folded in half makes an idea butt insulator and has other uses as well if and when needed. This small size also makes for any easy fit in the pack.

Alaska? Start with a parka.

Alaska is cold but in a lot of areas it is no colder and in fact warmer in winter then some other states are. It really depends on where you are going and your activity levels in Alaska that will dictate your clothing requirements.

I have been looking at the temps where I'll be staying. It's actually been low 30s this past week, while we in MI have been, oh... hovering around 0. I have a down parka, but think that it'll probably be overkill. I will, however, be packing it and wearing it around town.

This daypack doesn't have much outside attatchment points. I might be able to juryrig something, but honestly, I'd rather put the tent outside. The sleeping bag IS down, after all. I might go buy a drysack for it too, just to be safe.

I realize I wore too much. Actually, the top was fine. My legs were a bit damp, so next time I'll ditch the BDU pants, and just keep the tights under the gore-tex. And carry a pair of ear warmers in addition to the wool cap.

Good idea on the fleece. I'll check the local fabric shop and maybe they can help me add some nylon to one side.

As for the jacket, Sherpadog, this jacket only has "handwarmer" not "napoleon" style pockets. Unfortunately. I do have a jacket like that, but it's a rain jacket that has seriously lost it's DWR, despite repeated re-applications.

Like I said, this has been kind of a trial-by-fire on what I'm packing for aircraft egress. I figure the clothing day-to-day I have figured out, but I'm trying to figure how much I would need for a trek in the snow. By figuring what I need, I can add that to the bag and plan on my "normal" clothes being the starting point.

OK. My 2 cents worth.

A couple of extra pairs of dry socks and gloves.
You can hang a damp pair on your bag to dry as you wear a dry pair
Heavy duty garbage bags make decent dry bags if you double bag them.
Strip down when moving, dress up when stopped.

You might need a bigger bag, winter gear is about bulk. You end up packing a lot of air even with compression straps.
It is nice to be able to stuff your coat into the bag too when you are hiking.

Yes, slogging through snow is exhausting.
Remember to take frequent breaks.

Edit:
I like to point out that mitts are warmer than gloves and an extra large pair lets you wear gloves inside them of you have to.

Edit again.
Goretex still sweats, just not as badly as a fully sealed fabric would. I would suggest gaiters to keep your calves dry if the snow is wet and breathable wind pants over decent long underwear instead of goretex.
Fleece is good for underwear, especially since good woolens are impossible to buy any more.

Sherpadog suggested fleece as a sit down pad.
I like a piece of ensolite, I will have to try some scrap fleece next time I am out, it sounds like a good idea.

Most people overdress the upper body and underdress the lower body. If you have decent lower body clothing you might find yourself hiking in your tee shirt just to stay comfortable.

A piece of closed cell foam sleeping pad makes a great place to sit. I've even seen people cut a small piece, and attach it like a flap on the bottom of their pack, so when they sit, it's under their butt. It just hangs there when hiking. A pad is good for glissading... which is fun, but, better have an ice axe to self arrest if you get going too fast.

Those closed cell foam pads are also handy if you need to splint an arm or leg. Oh yeah, you can even sleep on them. I think some kind of pad is a must in winter, you really need some insulation under the sleeping bag or it's going to be a cooooold night.

Sorry...forgot about the down bag. By the sounds of it, you need a new backpack....but don't take my word for it as I what seems to be a backpack obsession. Today I was ogling a new pack even though I just purchased another one a couple of weeks ago.

As for the glove issue, remember when you were a kid and you had gloves that were attached by a string? Just saying...explore all possibilities.

Remember; layers work on EVERY part of your body; head, hands, torso, legs. Best to start off cool, and warm up. Winter hiking is all about moderating your core; dont sweat. If you're overheating, remove a layer. If you're still overheating, slow down. When you stop, don hat & jacket.
Layer your hands too. I go with a thin glove liner, a set of ragg wool half gloves, with the top that folds over to make them mittens, then an outer OR nylon mitt (they make them in goretex, but, the hands dont sweat enough, dont fall into that trap. Waterproof nylon is all you need). I am doing some extended snowshoeing tomorrow, testing out some gear, and its supposed to be in the mid 20's. I am carrying alot of extra clothing, but will likely not wear it unless I am standing still.

Sherpa dog makes a good point.
I do that with my heavy parka. The string goes through the arms and the little loop that is behind the neck for hanging it up.
I tie mitts on the end of the string.
If my fingers get cold, into the mitts they go.
If I need fine finger control the mitts can dangle, or even be stuffed up my sleeve for a moment.
Edit:
If you decide to sleep out and use the tent remember to brush the snow off everything before putting it inside and brush any snow that got inside the tent out before it melts.
If there is frost on the inside in the morning it should be brushed out before it melts too.

I like Be Prepared's comments about the ensolite. I carry a slightly larger than normal piece for sleeping on but I made it out of scraps from pads other people had wrecked. I taped the pieces together into a pad that folds flat instead of rolling into a tube. I kept a smallish piece of the scrap as a sit down.
I will still try out Sherpadog's suggestion of a fleece towel.
Maybe my old one size too small blanket for that.

Mdinana,

It is difficult to give you a decent recommendation since you did not say where and when you were going to in Alaska and for how long.

I am a refuge from the western shores of the Great Lakes Area. When I came to the Pacific Northwest many years ago, I did a lot of solo winter backpacking. What I discovered was that weather can instantly and drastically change. In the upper midwest you could dress for cold and work outdoors for hours with minimal layers depending on the velocity of the wind. We were especially concerned with what we called “The Arctic Express.” As long as we had a wind barrier layer we could still work.

In the Pacific Northwest, you are subject to “Chinook Winds” off the Pacific Ocean as well as the “Arctic Express.” Chinook Winds can initially cause heavy snow fall followed by heavy rains as well as rapid thawing. This can be devastating depending on your altitude, snow depth, and how you are equipped. In short, you must be prepared for wet weather, soft fluffy deep snow, and wet heavy snow at all times. Your equipment needs greatly increase to cope with these situations. With this increase in requirements, your pack size greatly increases.

I used an external frame pack with just a tarp and sleeping bag attached to the top of the frame for short duration low altitude treks but changed from the tarp to a winter tent attached to the bottom of the frame for longer treks especially at higher altitudes. I also included a good pair of snow shoes. Because of the weight, I quickly changed tactics. At first, I took a heavy clear plastic fishing bag that I would put my pack in with a stout cord or rope attached to the pack not just the bag and pulled the pack on the snow instead of carrying it. It was a lot easier. Later I purchased a cheap plastic sled that I converted to a pulk with modified chimney cleaning rods to pull it with. If the snow completely disappears, I can still carry the pack and pull the pulk with just light weight items in it. This was a big change from my midwest experiences.

I would recommend you really study the area you are going to and check with knowledgeable locals before taking to big of a plunge. I might also recommend reading “The Winter Wilderness Companion” by Garrell Conover and Alexander Conover.

Have fun!

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys.

As for where in AK I'll be, it's the SW corner, town called Bethel. I'll be working most of the time, so this bag isn't meant for any serious camping, just an "Oh crap my bush plane just crashed" type of affair. I don't know offhand if it's mountainous, but the town itself is apparantly a freshwater port. My concern is that the 56 surrounding villages are served by the hospital I'll be at, so I may go on "rounds" by plane.

OldSoldier, you hit on the head what I've been using on my hands. I'm just not as eloquent as you. Thin liners, the half-back gloves, outside mitten shell.

REI has a sale on gaitors. They looked about XL only, but I'll head back this afternoon and look over some more.

I've got a pair of windbreaker fleece pants around here somewhere. I'll try those next time instead of the layers on my legs. As for my torso.... maybe I'll try a light vest over my Nike "under armor." Or my soft shell - I've had it for years and still can't find a good use for it. Could this be it?

And yes, I did put on my jacket when I stopped for lunch! I was pretty happy that, besides my back where the packpack was, I didn't sweat too much. I was stopping all the time, taking things off and opening zippers. It's a pain adjusting for the weather!

I still sweat under the pack, even when stripped right down to just a tee shirt.
It is one of those places that just don't breath.

I would still carry long underpants as well as the outer pants.



True, true, but it beats getting chilled when you stop.
No sweat is a major rule in the northern bush.
If you sweat you freeze.

And if you are in a plane that goes down you are likely better to stay right there until they come find you.
If the pilot is competent at all he "should" have a better survival kit on the plane than you can pack, and the plane itself is a valuable source of material too.

edit.
I have never been there, but it should be flat coastal plain with few trees.
Possible extreme cold weather from the arctic coming through the Bering Straits, and occasionally temperatures might go as low as 50 below or colder, but normal winter temperatures should stay above 0 degrees F.

Later:
I was just looking at Bethel on Google Earth.
It looks like it is 55 miles up from the mouth of a meandering river. It also seems to be surrounded by at least 30 miles of muskeg in any direction and over 70 miles of muskeg in some directions.
One of the villages it serves has a total population of 6 people.

It sounds like a great trip, take a good camera!

You definitely want something that will wick the sweat off of you. You need to make sure you open a zipper in the coat when building up a sweat.

Definitely sounds like you need a new pack. A pack with external mounting points is definitely key. Tough to fit all your gear inside a bag.

Just my $.02

+2 On getting a new pack. If your current pack doesn't have attachment points on it, it's inadequate and needs to be replaced. Consider getting one of the heavier weight Space Thermal blankets to put on the floor of your tent, under your closed cell pad. That will greatly reflect heat up to you and keep the ground from absorbing it and chilling you to the bone. Down sleeping bags are warm on top, but crush flat on the bottom and have zero insulating value.
If you stop, put on layers, but only a few. If you stay stopped long enough to get cold under added layers, you stopped too long.
Better to keep moving and not let muscles get cold. When you stop for the night, put on lots of layers after you set up camp. Setting up camp will generate lots of heat, too, like walking.
As for carrying stuff, the new pack should accomodate it. Or consider a haversack, shoulder bag, or whatever you want to call it, a possibles bag, for small stuuu that you want to keep handy.

OK Guys, I went to REI yesterday, and got a sweet deal on a backpack ($35, after discount and sale). It's 2500cc, has a daisy chain down the back, and slots for nylon webbing along the bottom. It's a good mid-size bag, probably could do 2-3 days in it if I had to.
http://www.rei.com/product/780621

One of those emergency tarp blankets is a good idea. I'll probably steal one out of my FAK when I leave. As for a closed cell pad, I realized my Thermarest was too cold in practice. Maybe I can Craig's list to find one.

Mind you, this isn't supposed to be a camping bag, but it's supposed to keep me alive for a couple days. Any clothing in there is just to supplement what I'm wearing anyway for the weather (which includes a wicking base layer) - an extra jackets, socks, gloves, maybe a pair of underwear. But I digress... and the final product will be placed for review on here in a few weeks anyway.

One of my big wonders is if I need my tent. After all, if I'm not camping, then why bring it? And if a plane goes down, then yeah, I probably should stay with/in it. This was the thought behind the USGI poncho and liner - something I could use as a lean-to if need be, or a wearable insulating layer. I'd really like the "woobie" from Kifaru, but it's a ridiculous price.

Thermarest does make a decent winter one, ProLite 3 is what I use, but, it's still not really as good IMHO as a nice closed cell pad. (It is a little cushier though!)

As far as a tent, I am thinking like you are, that this is going to be a survival deal, not a planned camping trip. You can actually make a pretty comfortable shelter with a few things like a decent poncho, bivvy bag, couple trash bags, etc. Here's something I slept under a couple times with just what was in my daypack to show the guys that you could make yourself comfortable with just a few basics: (We had a pretty good rain one night too.)

You may find that just wearing a softshell jacket such as a windproof fleece such as Gore Windstopper or Polartec Windpro in conjuction with a merino wool wicking layer may work better than a hardshell jacket (unless of course your in wet sleet or whiteout blizzard conditions) as these tend to be much more breathable when physical activity increases. Putting a down or primaloft jacket on over the softshell during stops should keep you warm. Keeping dry in very cold conditions is the key to keeping warm but it isn't easy.


The Exped Downmat 9 may be what your looking for to insulate yourself from the ground in very cold temperatures

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/exped/downmat-9-dlx/

Although slightly heavier than the Thermarest equivalent it allows comfortable night sleep down to the temperatures you have mentioned. It is expensive though but is highly recommended for winter camping.



The Thermarest Lite Seat could be what you looking for.

http://www.thermarest.com/product_detail.aspx?pID=45&cID=4

The Lite Seat rolls up small enough to fit into a jacket pocket

I usually put all my down gear, i.e. Exped Down mat, Sleeping bag and jacket in a seperate waterproof Ortleib PD350 22 litre dry bag, which has been known to be secured to the outside of my backpack. But generally I like to keep these items within the pack itself for security. This ensures that the down gear can be packed away or removed inside the tent without any of the down gear getting wet. There are very few completely waterproof backpacks out there and a dry liner bag will most likely be required. I've found that it is almost impossible to get everything into a pack less than 40-50 litres that is required for safe winter trekking with the intention to stay out overnight.


Best to attach your gloves to the end of some cord and then thread through both sleeves of your jacket like your mum used to do when delivering you to pre school. Much harder to loose a glove this way in very cold weather. Loosing a glove in very cold weather can be extremely hazardous. Best to carry additional pairs of gloves or mitts because one pair will never be enough as the first pair will always get wet.

For very cold weather a non metalic handled knife or pruning saw will also prevent cold weather injuries to hands. Very cold weather can make handling of a Leatherman tool difficult if not wearing gloves to insulate yours hand from the metal.

Heat loss from radiation is bigger than most people think. Sleeping under the stars might be romantic but the twinkling little beggars will suck the heat right out of you.
(space is a very cold place)
If you can shelter under a spruce you can save a lot of heat from being radiated into the night sky, so a tent, a tarp or even one of those emergency blankets to rig as a tarp might help.

Thermarest and the other pads are not enough by themselves but it helps a lot if you put down a layer of brush and/or grass first.

Metal bodies like cars and planes suck a lot of heat and radiate a lot of heat into the night sky too.

It is surprising how much of a difference being able to camp under something makes, even just a tarp set up as a lean to will give you cover from the sky and a windbreak.


If you are forced down:

Staying near the plane is good.
Try to keep it clear of snow and keep a good fire going if you can.

Keeping snow off the wings makes the plane much easier to see.
If it is shiny outlining it with brush on the ground might help.

Even a small fire can be seen from a long way away at night, but wood smoke is a disappointing signal during the day.

Smoke looks too much like mist or fog and usually the fire is too small to punch the smoke above the thermal inversion layer and into a nice tall column.
Having material like motor oil or rubber from the plane to burn that gives black smoke might make a difference.
Just be careful not to blow yourself up trying to burn it.

Having one good fire instead of three small ones is fine.
If they are looking for you they will investigate a single fire just as quickly as three in a group.

If you can torch an isolated spruce tree you might get yourself found by the fire watch instead of the Search and Rescue teams.

Try to make sure any electronic signaling devices are working.
You might be lucky and have a working radio, or location beacon, but sometimes they get their power leads or antennas ripped loose.

The plane itself is a source of emergency gear too.
It will be loaded with fuel, metal, wire and cushions useful for insulation.
Plus there is whatever the plane had in it, both the emergency supplies and the cargo if you must.

I forget, but are you packing a tarp or emergency shelter? Doesn't take up much space. Esp. since you aren't carrying a tent, may be a good idea. Something you can practice setting up quickly.

Bivvy bag?

The pack looks decent. I'm interested in hearing how it works out for you!

Here is a quick photo of the majority of the Winter Gear I prefer to take with me;



Exped Downmat 9 Sleeping mat - apparently good to -40C but I've never been in such cold conditions.
Alpkit Phantom Jacket in the Alpkit Compression bag - Hooded Down Jacket with showerproof outer
Lightwave zr0 cylq Tent - 4 Season tent single man which weighs in @1.3Kg
Vango Venom 300 Down bag.
Lifventure Silk Sleeping Bag Liner - adds another 2-3C to the Venom bags rating and helps keep the Venon Bag cleaner.
Primus EtaPower Pot 1 Litre - very fuel efficient pot.
MSR isobutane cartrige, folding Optimus gas stove, Ti Spork, Brunton Lighter, fuel tool which all fits inside the Primus Etapower pot.
Sigg Water bottle with Neoprene cosy - Secondary use as a hot water bottle.
UCO Candles and Latern - Nothing beats the warm comforting light of a real candle flame
Jansport Manbag containing 24hr British Army Operational Ration Pack.
Lifesystems Trekker FAK.
Thermarest Orange Lite Seat - Can also be used a pillow.
Fenix P3D and Alpkit Head lamp.
Double Walled Snowpeak Ti Cup - keeps brew ups nice and warm.
Jetstream Jacket - Sometimes even a windproof fleece can be too warm at high activity levels in the cold.
Bacho Laplander and Helle Odel Fixed blade knife - No metal handles.

There are many additional items not shown of course such as a map and compass, GPS etc, but this provides the basis for my winter kit.

I have actually posted a kit list before here at

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121523

Just came back from another trial run. First, the new backpack is great!

Second, holy cow, 35 degrees feels warm. I did the hike in a wicking base layer and a soft shell, and it was warm enough that I didn't need a hat, and I'd folded back the fingers on my mitts. Didn't break a sweat after 45 minutes, so I'd say that's a good thing.

Still debating tent vs tarp. If I go the tarp route, I'd take a bivy with me too, so I wonder if I'm actually saving any weight (or space). Anyway, it's a mental debate still.

Most of my items are tacked down mentally. My camera is here with me, but I left the cable with my parents over the holidays. It'll be mailed, and I'll put up some pics on a new thread soon!

Thanks to everyone so far for suggestions.

Light weight tent would be my choice. More than once, I have been glad for that thin tent wall to block the wind that came up / changed direction after I thought I had everything all taken care of. That usually occurs after I have zipped the sleeping bag for the night.

Ditto... If you can afford to pack it, take it with you. Or at least some ready made shelter.

A tent is usually warmer than a tarp shelter and keeps the blowing snow off you..