About firearm purchasing - private seller vs. shop

I have read in a couple of sources a recommendation to buy firearms face-to-face from a private seller (typically a used gun) rather than buying from a store if legal and possible in one's area. I think this recommendation is to leave less rather than more paper trail of gun purchases.

Because these sources tend to err on the side of caution/wariness of government gun control/hypervigilance, I'm not sure how to take this. I also prefer to leave less rather than more records of any of my purchasing habits. I like the selections I can get from stores but prefer the relative anonymity of private transactions.

I guess I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of low-profile transactions versus full paperwork transactions.

Leaving aside purchase aspects of inspection and test firing, do you have any insights or tips regarding the preference of face-to-face, cash transactions? (In my location, these transactions are legal, btw.)

If you are not 100% sure of the firearm history, A face to face no paperwork transaction could come back to haunt you if the firearm was used in a crime or is stolen and someone checks the ballistics or serial number for any reason.

Get some kind of identifying information on the seller, and hope that it is not false. That way if you learn that you do indeed own a stolen firearm or one that was used in a crime, you have something to point at when LEO's are asking uncomfortable questions.
This was learned from hard experience. Bought a beautiful pre-owned but almost never shot Walther PPK/S (true german) for a reasonable price. Less than a week later, I was explaining to the police department about the stolen gun that I had dropped off at the local gunsmith's shop for inspection. Turns out it was stolen from my father's business partner's company truck. Kinda hard explaining that one away.
Looks like SBRaider and I were in a typing race to the same idea, I lost.

Thanks for the tips re: paperwork. I get at least a Bill of Sale. Would hate to buy a stolen gun.

I'm really interested in your thoughts on avoiding shop purchase to lessen the amount of government records regarding who owns what. As I mentioned, where I live it is legal to conduct either kind of transaction, which the private sale of used guns leaving must less official records. If I ask this question at certain forums, I get universal "don't let The Man know more than you have to," but I appreciate the more common sense, down-to-Earth, non-political ideas that are common here.

So, stated another way, do you have concerns about government records of your firearms purchasing being used to control guns, confiscate, etc.?

Nope, I really don't. However, should that come to pass I can imagine they will have been "STOLEN, SOLD, LOST" etc. What you do is between you and your God, or the lack thereof. Whatever you choose to believe.

I'm not sure how much I fear firearms I currently possess being confiscated - much more likely to be grandfathered I would think. But if such a thing did come to pass you can be sure the BATF will look in their files for a list of addresses right off the bat.
I'm not sure how well the lost, stolen, sold thing would play.

Or....what you could do is write down the serial# of the weapon (assume you already know the mfr and model) and take the number to the police station. Tell them you're going to buy a gun and ask if they'll check the serial for stolen or other......
that would at least alleviate the immediate problem.
Also, get a receipt (and ID like someone said) even if it's handwritten.

Okay, so if you've ever bought any firearms through a dealer, then should the government find it necessary to come a looking, they already have a record that you own or have owned firearms, so you go on the check anyways list. Now if they come and they find you have a firearm(s) they don't know about, especially one that may have an adverse history, now the trouble starts. If they decide even just one of the guns in your collection is a bad apple, they will likely take the whole bunch, followed by a search warrant on the rest of your house, and finally cuffed and stuffed.

Unless your entire gun collection is off the books AND you have managed to keep your mouth shut about it all this time, I would say that buying as a private sale, especially from someone without a bona-fides, is just asking to be labeled a suspect.

That's why you have your "public" guns, and then the guns that you buried in the middle of the night.

I don;t think they would do that Benjamin, and here's why I say:
- I work with ATF guys and local police and they're as hard-core a gun owner as anyone else I know;
- They have no idea what guns I own unless they're investigating me for an offense that permits them to dig through archived records, and even then, it's like looking for a needle in.....;
- There is no requirement to "register" a firearm, unless it's an automatic or otherwise prohibited without license;
- private sales are done everyday (i.e. you're over for dinner at my house and you like this gun I have. You ask if it's for sale and I say yes. Done.);
- certain States and cities may have "registry" laws, but that would apply whether you bought the gun public or private;
- the only item that can be seized is one that's already illegal to obtain, or was obtained as fruit of a crime, or one that's stolen, or one that's been used in a crime. So.... if the police had a reason to look for, find, and seize the hypothetical weapon, they would have no legal justification to seize the others (now, law can be complicated, but this inability of theirs to seize the "other" weapons you own is under the assumption that there's been no other crime);
- in then end, about the only things a buyer has to worry about are:
...- whether the weapon is functional;
...- whether or not it's stolen;
...- whether or not it's been used in a crime.

I really don;t think it's much of an issue if a few precautions are taken.

It's those last two criteria that make all my points legitimate, and real, concerns. Unless you do the federal paperwork, you leave yourself exposed to whatever Law Enforcement should decide is warranted.

Besides which, there are a tremendous number of LE personnel that have nothing better to do than go through records. What makes you think they aren't or haven't already investigated you, especially if you ever purchased a firearm from a legitimate dealer.

When it comes to my guns, I am just a bit on the paranoid side I reckon. As far as the government being able to keep their noses out of records I give them, they've already demonstrated that they they can't be trusted on that count, several times over.

Well Benjamin, it would appear you might not ;t change your mind on this issue, so I won;t try. But, rest assured, if you go to the gun shop tomorrow, the ONLY federal paperwork you will have to complete is the application so the store owner can run an NCIC check on you. Now, the gun shop owner has to complete his own fed paperwork on the sale of the gun, but that paperwork goes nowhere (unless you buy several weapons OR unless he submits it to ATF outlining the reasons why he thought the purchase suspicious).

In any event, a private sale is ok. It's like selling a pocket knife. The act of the sale is no more different than that. There is no paperwork to be filled out, not even a receipt. BUT!: I recommended a receipt and ID in my first post just so that, in the event the weapon was ever used in a crime, the buyer at least had some evidence of when and from whom he purchased it, even though he's not required to have it. It would be some evidence.... some attempt... of protecting yourself.

I work amid these LE people and sifting through records out of boredom is not something I've witnessed in 24 years...... but that could change soon, of course (NO. I DID NOT SAY "POLITICS". I DID NOT!) ((( )))

Naw, I know what you're saying, i just had to get on a rant. Every time one of those form 4473's gets filled out, there's a transaction of information that is going somewhere. They say they can't use that information for anything more than what you indicated for the NCIC check, but then Ted Kennedy suggested at one point that since the information wasn't being destroyed, it should be used for something more productive, which idea fortunately got shot down.

None of the LEOs I know ever do anything with that information beyond what is supposed to be done, but the fact remains the information is being kept, and sure enough someone in a dingy sub-floor with a GS rating is maintaining it for possible future use. Not LEO, but definitely on government payroll.

Let me put it another way. If you buy from a dealer, and he does the paperwork, there's no chance of getting your hands on a bad apple. I've witnessed many private sales transactions at gun shows etc, and I am sure none of them were a problem. Just given the tenuous recent events reolving around gun ownership of late, I am just a bit skeptical about procedure.

Gave this some thought some time ago. Concluded: If it comes to people looking for my guns I won't be at home anyway.


Additionally who in there right mind is going to take on the job of going house to house to collect guns?

CO

The Guns of the West Gunshow was here in town this weekend. I didn't go but of course there was chatter on the local a/m radio stations. Apparently the sales were 'very brisk'. One vendor claimed he did 3x normal business.

An ancillary report was done at the same time on a local Walmart that had 100 people in line at their weapons kiosk in the store. Did not hear if there was a coupon day or why this day was more volume than any other.

Many thanks to each of you for your thoughts on this thread. Maybe cameron2trade has it right, by the time someone comes looking for firearms, it's probably past time to be gone anyway!

Sounds like it comes down to:

Private transaction: good idea to have a bill of sale/receipt to provide some measure of arse-coverage in case a firearm has a bad history

Public (retail/FFL) transaction: paperwork/background checks are completed by retailers; datamining does not require much time or effort should someone what to run searches on ownership/registration details.

Guess it's like many topics these days: one's expectations of likely/unlikely scenarios directs one's risk management decisions.

Glad you got what you needed, Henry Porter, but I'd like to add just a little if it's allright. Mostly because the thread and contents are interesting to me and they're good discussion.

- Just about any weapon available to the public (declassified military weapons, for example), like maybe a bazooka , or a fully-automatic .50 BMG, can be bought by any U.S. citizen, and pretty much by legal aliens too. The catch is, you have to apply for, pay for, and receive a license.

- Say I'm having a garage sale and sipping coffee at 0730 on a Saturday morn. I've got all kinds of stuff for sale, including a rifle or two and several handguns.
- A guy comes up and wants to buy a revolver I have for sale. He gives me $175 and starts to walk away down the driveway. Another guy who is arriving sees the gun and offers him $185. The guys sells it and both leave. No paper except cash money has exchanged hands. No law has been broken (maybe somewhere there's a law, like I said). Certainly, no federal law has been broken.
- Smarter would be for all three of us to exchange IDs and receipts, but it's not legally necessary.

- Now a guy comes up and admires my full-auto .50 BMG (NO! I don;t have one.....yet. ) Assume I have a license.
- he offers me $12000 and I take it. He walks away.
- two crimes have been committed (both felonys):
-1. I sold the weapon without verifying licensing for that weapon;
-2. The new owner is in possession of an unlicensed weapon;

In the first scenario, where the handguns were sold, no record keeping transactions have occurred and no laws were broken, EVEN IF one of the buyers was a convicted felon (except that he is now a felon in possession). BUT: I have no legal liability to verify his history. THe only way I could be liable is if I had reason to believe he was a felon.

In the second scenario, both parties are law-abiding citizens, yet two felonies were committed.

Now certainly this post in no ways intends to refute the good points made earlier by others about concern for the weapons history. That's why we want to take as many reasonable steps as possible in identifying the seller (and seller identifying the buyer, for the smartest transaction) and making a reasonable attempt to determine if the weapon might be stolen or used in a crime. Also, taking a witness to a purchase would be good too.

The "no laws broken" depends on what state the sale happened in, in my state several laws were broken, and in seveal others at least 1 was broken. Know the state law

One minor clarification that I think is important.

It's not a license. It's a TAX STAMP.


Wasn't there a tea party/riot some time back about tax stamps or something.....???

Don't get me started.

The tax stamp is certainly coming..... maybe even for ammo.

Not pedantic, old bean, perceptive. (I have a pretty good handle on what I think and do regarding these transactions but like asking questions to test the waters, so to speak, and to see what I can learn from the folks talking around the campfire.)

That said, I am less sanguine than some about the restraint of various government agencies regarding private property, search and seizure, datamining, and grandfathering various types of firearms and ammunition. So I tend to err on the side of simple bill of sales rather than more official records.

And like others have commented regarding taxation/stamp tax, don't get me started....

As a revenue generator, it's already here. We've got a nominal tax (in the neighborhood of.05-.10$)applied on every box.

Yes, yes, but I'm thinking more along the lines of registration when purchasing. THis is the true purpose behind these "tax stamp" government legalized scams. You know, providing name, address, etc (and maybe even:
"reason for purchase ___________________________".

That's what I understood you meant. The basis for it is already in place. All they have to do is change what requires a stamp. I predict it will happen in the future just because have you ever heard of a government loosening regulations. Eventually it'll be just like marijuana. IIRC if you've got the right stamp, it's legal to grow. Thing is they don't issue the stamps.

I went hunting for the first time a year ago and my uncle gave me the gun that he let me use (a single shot .17). Great! I'm a gun owner. In an attempt to further my interest in guns he lent me an old bolt action .22; later asking if I would be willing to give him $100, or $100 worth of ammo and just keep it (a steal)... now I own two guns... Then at the end of last summer he said he'd like me to "try" a larger caliber (.243) again asking later if I'd just keep if and give him $150.
Of course I trust my uncle, but he does a lot of trading and buying and selling with his gun buddies and a rural gun "shop" (some guy's living room converted). I don't have any paper work for any of my guns. One was a gift and my payment for the other two was more symbolic than anything.
If LE ever had a question, I'm sure my uncle would identify himself as the owner before me, but as far as I know he doesn't know their complete history. Also, it might look a little weird having 3 rifles that were all "gifts".

Unless things have changes in the intervening years, I would not be worried about the "gift" issue. From age 6 on up I have been shooting and from 10 on up competitively. Many of the trap/skeet competitions awarded a firearm as overall first prize (usually a Remington 870 or 1100). have been gifted more of those firearms than I remember from relatives that had to sign for them because I was under age. I have since sold them to others AFTER asking an ATF fellow the regulations on said sales (hope he was right).

Also, no child in the US would start hunting if not for the gift of a firearm. Just keep track of where you got them and you should be good to go.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. In fact, I bailed on law school. I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Um, last I saw, possession of a stolen firearm was juast as bad as claiming ownership. If you are caught with it, you are caught with it. If the cops go to your uncle and ask where the firearm is and he says you have it (not that he is ratting you out, but because they really are going to insist he tell them what happened to it), then you are implicated, and the chain of custody ends with you. I would, in that case, expect to be charged with receiving a stolen firearm, or worse.

Except for the language included in the criteria" "knowledge" (which can be substituted with "callous disregard" or interpreted by a jury as "should have known")..............

For example: a defesne to prosecution is "lack of knowledge" that the firearm was stolen. An innocent claim is the best defense, but even better yet is evidence that the buyer took reasonable steps to ensure the weapon was not stolen or otherwise involved in crime....as stated in previous posts.

That would be due diligence, which wouldn't be a necessarily good defense in a private gun sale/purchase where chain of custody wasn't established. If you don't know the source, then be suspicious. Still better to err on the side of caution I would think.

Most likely it is a non issue 99% of the time, but for me, it just doesn't seem to be worth the potential hassle that could come of it. One-off transfers wouldn't be bad, but if I am the third or fourth party out, I would start to get a bit paranoid, and be wanting that identification of transfer from the previous possessor handy should the need arise.

In some jurisdictions, it is just easier for the LEA to arrest you and leave it to the DA to deal with it. They can arrest you, charge you, take you to trial and you can be found not guilty, but you will still have a record (flag) with NCIC that could be a real problem with all future fiream purchases, etc. This admittedly is walking into the "What if..." realm a bit, but it can, and does happen.

If you are in Florida you can go here and check out your purchase,

http://pas.fdle.state.fl.us/pas/item/displayGunSearch.a

Just do it from the library

I didn't know you could check a firearm number from the library...that one's good to know. I'm still thinking the police wouldn;t have a problem running the number for you. Of course, if it came up stolen or wanted, they might want to have a little chat with you about where the seller and gun is

The last time I bought a pistol from a private seller was in about 1991, and that was from a Texas game warden, so I didn;t worry about particulars. But I did get a receipt.

The last rifle I bought private was probably in the early 80's. I got a receipt but was way too dumb back then to think of having the serial number checked. Plus, the seller was in his home, with family, and a super-nice collection of guns. I would never have suspected anything wrong with the rifle.

Sorry, I meant use the computer at the library to access that web site. No use being all private sale and all only to give up your IP to the web site.

And wear a hat with a brim...

And a high collar on your trench coat.

I know this is a fairly old thread, but I can't hold back giving my $.02 worth. I was a Fed LEO for 29 years, stationed at various offices around the US, now retired. I worked with, not for, the FBI and ATF among others and numerous State, County and City agencies. I had to "trace" firearms ownership on various occassions. First time, in my naievete, I asked an associate with ATF for help, he just laughed. We went to the gun store and looked through volumes of 3-ring binders full of forms in random order until we found the record of sale for the gun of interest. No computers, no high level gov't intrigue in Wash DC, none of the TV crap. Subsequent cases involved the same review of binders full of randomly filed forms, but without ATF "help". That's still the way it goes for "tracing" a gun. ATF can, if pressed by a high profile case, check lists of serial numbers by maker to see where a new gun was shipped for initial sale, after that it's check through the 3-ring binders again.
It's good advice to check with local PD on a gun you're buying from an unknown private party, and no matter who you buy from, get a bill of sale or receipt of some kind showing who sold it to you and when. Other than that, don't sweat it.
If the blue helmeted troops do come looking for your guns, it's going to be due to something other than your gun buying history. It will also be time to produce those copies of the receipts you made when you sold them in the parking lot of those gun shows. IF you're still living there instead of in some cave in the mountains.

All my guns sank in a boating accident.

I sold all my guns to pay for my Y2K supplies, back 1999!

I posted this question in another forum. How well do you suppose the records are kept. I have two rifles that were purchased by my father 25 years ago in a store called Hecks which went out of business 15 years ago. It was a K-mart style department store. They were also purchased in a different state from where he lives and from where I now live. How long do you suppose those records are kept and how well do you think they can track them across state lines that didn't require anyone to be a resident and the store went out of business and probably trashed all their records in the process if they even still had them. I'm sure there are lots of other people who bought similar.

I own (or used to own) a whole bunch of firearms that were legally purchased from a licensed gun dealer. Some of said dealers are now out of business, meaning no three ring binders to go thru. A while back, when I was still working and had computer access, I tried to track down one of my handguns by serial number. Nothing, nada, zip...

Here's why I asked the question in the first place:

On the President's agenda as stated on:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

"PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

(I added bold to point out the part most relevant to the topic.)