Advice from the gun guys (or girls)

Hi folks,

I approached hunting as an adult, so have fairly limited experience when it comes to hunting and firearms. So far I've hunted both deer and waterfoul with a Mossberg model 500. It's been a reliable shotgun and for deer I have a rifled barrel and 4x scope, and I'm confindent out to a little under 100 yards with sabot slugs.

I'm thinking it's time to pick up a rifle for deer hunting, and I've come across a used Marlin 336 levergun in 30-30 with a Tasco 3-9x40 scope, sling and case for sale by a guy not far from my new home. His asking price is $300 for the whole thing.

What do you think? Good price? Am I actually gaining much performance over my current shotgun with rifled barrel setup? It kills me to practice with my current rig, as the sabot slugs are very expensive. I suppose a 30-30 might get me to shoot more as well.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

There is a reason the .30-.30 cartridge is still in production after all these years. Because, within it's limitations, (Deer etc. within effective range) IT WORKS.

If it ain't broke don't fix it has never been more true. I own two marlin .30-.30 rifles with the tasco scope you are mentioning. It was a combo offered in the late 80's I think.

Both are on "semi-temporary loan" to my nephews. both have taken deer the last three years with them and love them so much, I may forget to ask for them back.

Just be sure of you shot placement and enjoy!

Try it out first from sandbags and see how much difference in
accuracy you get from your current gun. I think you'll be pleased
unless there is something wrong with the set up.

The good ole .30-30 has taken a jillion deer over the years. Given your east coast location it should work for you. As an extra added bonus, it kicks a lot less than a 12ga slug...

I have a Marlin 336 in 35 remington. I bought it used in 1989 after it had been worked over good by a gunsmith, including a new hi-luster bluing job and trigger work, for $145. I put a Weaver 2.5 to 7x variable on top of it, and it kept groups below one minute of angle using standard 200 grain factory ammo. This was before the micro-groove adaptation Marlin made to their rifling. It is a great little carbine.

For a used Marlin 336 in good condition with the scope and accessories you mentioned, I would likely be looking to pay a little less than what he's asking. See if you can get him down a little closer to $250. Out east 30-30s are generally more popular and desirable, though there are certainly plenty good lever guns on this side of the Mississippi as well.

Generally, you will want to limit your effective shooting range to a maximum of 150 yards with that gun, unless you can judge bullet drop well. The 30-30 has the dubious nickname of leg breaker, as many of those who shot that round notoriously shot at deer too far awaywithout adjusting for bullet drop, usually resulting in a leg hit wounded animal that quickly hobbled into the bushes to die a slow death, rather than in the vitals for a clean, quick kill.

Um... yes. But that little 30-30 does have a hell of a kick if you're not expecting it. I saw a guy on the range, standing, almost fall over (OK, he hadn't fired before, and didn't really seat the rifle well).

Anyway, if you hold it like you would the shotgun, you'll be fine.

My brother has a Win. 94 30-30, which is very similar to the Marlin. I'd say it's probably a fair deal. We've (my brother, dad, and I) found that our Win. is VERY accurate out to 100 yards with iron sights. Given that we found the rifle cleaning out my grandmother's house upon her death, that says a lot - the rifle probably hadn't been fired in 35+ years.

I don't own one, but I recently looked at one in a store, contemplating purchase. Our local Dick's Sporting Goods store has a Marlin 336 with scope, new, for $349. When I checked it out, it was the 336A model. I think the "A" part of that means the stock was carved by a 12 year old using a dull screwdriver. I was not impressed. But I suppose it depends on what you're looking for. I'm sure the 336A shoots just fine. $300 used might be a nice price for a well-kept 336C, but maybe not for a 336A. Make sure you know what you're getting.

Here's my Winchester 94 story.

My grandfather hunted every winter from 1950 until 1965 - with the Winchester Model 94 30-30. He gave it to my dad around when I was born.

In 1975, when I was 10 years old, it was the first rifle larger than .22 I ever fired and it knocked me on my azz. It's a good wallop, the 30-30.

By 1985, I was carrying that same model 94 in a soft case on my back while riding my bicycle through the suburban streets of Long Island on my way to the Mitchell Field indoor range, in the center of Nassau County.

By 1995, I had been using that old 30-30 for 20 years - and never had a scope on it. For me it became just "the rifle" and I learned how much to hold over a target and how to sight it and I got better and better with it.

In 2005, in my 30th year with the gun, I went to a Turkey shoot. This is an event where you have a domestic turkey in a box 100 yards down range and all you can see is it's head sticking out. You pay $1.00 a shot and if you kill the turkey, you win it for Thanksgiving. (they don't have them anymore, some folks seem to object to the contest for some reason).

I showed up with my iron-sight 30-30, and my buddies there openly laughed at me. They were all set up with a whole bunch of scoped rifles (had to be .243 or large, max 9x scope).
In what has since become a legendary shot, I stood, cocked the gun, held my breath, waited until I was just right - and took the head of that bird clear off.

Thinking it was a lucky shot, the guy next to me offered me $100 if I could do it again. Once he showed me the cash, I lined up, and did it again. I gave the $100 to the gun club and the turkey to him.

Never underestimate what you can do with enough practice with ANY firearm.

Unfortunately, I no longer have that gun, and in the last 3 years, my eyesight has taken a dramatic turn for the worse, and I think that I'll never make that kind of shot again. I know the gun is in good hands, having returned it to my Dad when he moved down south.

Anyway, I've become convinced that while the gun matters, your experience with the gun matters much more.

And I'd suggest that lots of practice with 30-30 is a LOT cheaper than with slugs!

I happen to agree with Benjamin on trying to get down a little closer to $250 (though $300 might be ok if he won;t budge and you really like the gun) and to keeping your expected kill range under about 150 yards.

The 30-30 is a good brush gun in your location. These larger caliber rounds won;t deflect quite as readily after hitting a fine twig or three.

In NE Ohio where I'm originally from high powered rifles weren't permitted, though I think the .30 caliber carbine round was ok (can;t be sure now). THe 12 gauge slug was the most widely accepted. Down here in the southwest, we need a more powerful round, as the kill might be made at 250 yards or greater as soon as it would at 150. But up there? An all-around good deer cartridge I think.

There is some contention about the 'brush gun' concept-the low velocity double 30, or 35 rem, manfully pushing aside twigs and leaves and reaching its target. The counter argument is that the gyroscopic stabilization of higher velocity, lower weight projectiles is superior to that of slower, heavier ones. The third position is that any projectile that encounters brush will land in a different spot that it would have had it not.

Lever action rifles are nostalgic and convenient to carry, but tend to give up some accuracy and reliability to the turnbolts-probably why one doesn't see the marine snipers zeroing in their savage 99's (my nominee for the prettiest long arm).

You can buy a lot of 12 gauge ammunition for $350. Maybe yuo don't actually need another firearm...
(The lynch mob of gun fanciers is forming up in front of my house even as we speak...word of this sort of heresy travels fast in the firearm fraternity...if they get me, browning and ruger 9's go to Blast, the remmy and mossy twelves to ironraven...pray for em...)

Dear lynch mob, PM me if you want Nursemike's address.

Sorry NM, I've always wanted a Browning!


-Blast

It's kind of old-has little waffenamt acceptance marks on it. An ancestor brought it back from the war. I had run a couple of boxes through it before I read about the sabotage of weapons at the FN factory in Herstal, so I guess it's okay. Has the 500 meter tangent sight-which seems pretty optimistic to me.

I believe that was commonly known as the "Artillery Browning".

As I understand it, the moniker was given because when one set the sight to 500 meters, the barrel was elevated like a howitzer.

Maybe also because it was issued to artillery troops?

Let me tell you about the good old tirdy/tirdy. I own 3 of them 1 Marlin 336C 1 Winchester 94 (pre 72) and one Stevens/Savage 326-c bolt action. I also reload for 30-30, You can get most of the stuff to reload for around $40.00 I load some of my 30-30 with M1 Carbine bullets that way I can hunt rabbits on up. A little history on the 30-30. There is NO north American animal that has not been taken with the 30-30, Like others have said RANGE AND SHOT PLACEMENT The only modification I made to my 94 was to put a peep sight on it due to my aging eyes. The other two rifles have good open sight that I can see threw. If you like the rifle go for it, When used with a little common seance it will never let you down

My question for you - I see you are in NYC (ditto here). Where do you intend to hunt? The southern and western zones of NY State are "shotgun" counties, EXCEPT for the Catskill State Park area, where rifles are allowed. In other words, be careful where you intend to use the 30-30, which by itself is a fine shorter range (say 125 yds and down) deer cartridge - the only reason I don't say longer than that is the trajectory gets a bit "loopy" after that

A man of taste - I inherrited Dad's M-99 in .300 Sav when he passed on, and it has become MY deer rifle for most uses, despite owning a heavy barrel (Hart varmint weight stainless) tricked out Ruger M-77 that is a heck of a lot more accurate (like one ragged - well very ragged - hole, say 1/2) at 100 yds off the bench)

Why? Easier to carry, good enough for ranges under 200 yds, and most because Dad carried that rifle every year from the time he got it in the early 1950s. With Dad gone, it's partly my way of remembering some real GOOD times with him (why is monitor suddenly getting blurry?)

Dad and his 2 LONG time hunting buddies, Frank and Norman ALL used M-99s in 300 Sav - Dad's was the regular 99, Frank's was the M-99 with the fancy foreend (99r?) and Norman's was in between. Frank and my Father hunted together from before WWII, till Frank passed on about 11 years ago. Dad only started hunting with Norman in the 1940s or 50s, and stopped when Norman died in 2005 - Dad's last year in the woods was 2006.

Those three M-99s took a HECK of a lot of deer over the years - All three men used the OLD 180 grain round nosed "Core-lok" load - and when Remington discontinued the 180gr round nosed bullet, I bought EVERY one I could find - about 700 bullets, and reloaded for all 3 men after that

(mental picture - Dad in the old Red and Black Woolrich pants and jacket, orange knit cap, Red Ball rubber boots, a pair of gloves, holding the M-99 by the receiver, walking through Norman's garden to get to where we used to hunt)

My leg is such that I didn't get out last year or this - aarrgghh - can't walk

RIP Frank, Norman and Dad

Marty,
You're right, live turkey Turkey Shoots have gone the way of, I don't know - but they are gone...

Where they live on is in the "Modern" Turkey shoot - I go to one every year (West Hurley NY - last Sunday in Sept). We shoot at targets (figure a "High Power" (aka 100 yd match) every time they can sign up 12-16 shooters (about every 15 minutes), plus 50 yd .22, and pistol matches etc. The prise for each match? A nice frozen turkey

And RE - practicing with the rifle that matters? "Beware the man with one rifle, he probably knows how to use it"

kc2ixe,

You hit the nail on the head as to why I've only hunted with the shotgun so far. My inlaws have a place upstate - in West Hurley actually (you seem familiar with the town) - and I was thinking about heading out onto some of the city DEP land around the Ashokan Resevior.

Any other suggestions of areas to look into? I know I'm a bit late to the game this year, but with my move things have been a bit hectic, to say the least!

Yea, we used to do this as well back when I used to shoot .22lr competitively. Every year we would have a shoot like this right before Thanksgiving. They didn't like me though, because I won it twice in three years.

On a side note, our combined entrance fee not only paid for the turkey, but also paid for another turkey or two that would be donated to less fortunate people. Most people that won also wound up donating their winning bird, so it was more or less a charity shoot and everyone treated it more as a fun day out at the range with friends than a true competition.

I think it is the product of European handgun thinking. They used to mill grooves in the grip strap and fit shoulder stocks to lugers, broomstick mausers, and the HK VP70. sort of carbinizing of the handgun. Only a short step from there to putting rear sights on them that take up 1/3 of the slide. Odd folk. Here in the new world we chamber handguns for rifle cartridges and slap scopes on them, but we still hold them in our hands just like Colonel Colt told us to.

"...handguns for rifle cartridges and slap scopes on them, but we still hold them in our hands just like Colonel Colt told us to..."

I think that the ATF has a hand in that (no pun intended) too, since putting a shoulder stock on a handgun is kindasorta illegal...

I believe that proves the point.
Why is it illegal? A shoulder stock renders a handgun less concealable and maybe more accurate and controllable, which seem like qualities that BATF ought to encourage. But-it is illegal. Why? Because it is just flippin' wrong, that's why. You would never imagine John Wayne drawing his peacemaker, clipping a stock on it, shouldering it and firing at some miscreant. Wouldn't happen.

About what most of our gang does too - Won a couple of Turkeys in 3 years? How about winning 3 in one day, and then doing it again the next year (we have a limit - 3 Turkeys max) - I ened up bringing ONE home each year, and donated the other 2

That's home away from Home - if you're in the park, rifles work - I'll contact you via PM

Hard to go wrong with a good .30-30. The price is a little high, but not horrific. Is he tossing in ammunition?

And performance is a big jump. For things like a charging bull or an engine block, I'd prefer a 12ga slug, but the .30-30 gives you less recoil, greater range, accuracy, lighter ammo weight, and more cost efficent ammo. Ballistically, .30-30 and 7.62x39mm are nearly identical- a hundred million AK and SKS users can't all be wrong. :P

In rifle calibers, it's considered a short barreled rifle. IIRC they're legal if you've got the right form ($200). They'd have a lot more power than the usual handgun & be more easily concealed than a rifle. Legal lengths are 16/18" (rifle/shotgun) barrel & overall length of 26".

[quote=nursemike
I believe that proves the point.
Why is it illegal? A shoulder stock renders a handgun less concealable and maybe more accurate and controllable, which seem like qualities that BATF ought to encourage. But-it is illegal. Why? Because it is just flippin' wrong, that's why. You would never imagine John Wayne drawing his peacemaker, clipping a stock on it, shouldering it and firing at some miscreant. Wouldn't happen. [/quote]

Sigh, for the same reason that if you take a Ruger Charger action, and put a barrel from a 10/22 on it, you're legal, but take a 10/22 action, and put a charger barrel on it, you've made an NFA weapon, and it's illegal - the actions are identical except for markings, but put that 10-22 action in a charger stock and barrel, and you've made a "short barrel rifle"

And most any .30-30 rifle is more accurate than most AK's, at least in my experience...

Jesselp, of course the 30-30 isn't the most "flat shooting" of the available deer rifles, but it will sure do the job well. Will it work better than the shotgun? No, only different. You will have womewhat more range, I feel the practical range of the 30-30 is about 200 yards. Not to say that it won't work a lot farther, it's just that the cartridge, range should be limited for the sake of ensuring you make a KILLING, humane shot on the deer, or black bear or whatever. Not to mention, game animals don't always fall down dead at the first shot. sometimes, they run some ways. Sometimes, not. Look at it like this, if you shoot a deer at 50 yards after either stalking it, or while sitting in a stand waiting on it, and it runs, you have from 50 yards, until 200 or maybe a little bit more to continue to make hits on the deer until it falls down, or dies. If however, you make a shot at that 200 yard initial shot and the deer runs, you have to start shooting again from that 200 yards, on farther out until the animal falls. Which do you want to have to do? I know someone might answer here and say 200 yards is pretty short of a range limitation for the 30-30, and sometimes it is. But the thing is that not everyone is a long range guru, and you said yourself that your a little bit inexperienced. That's ok, I am plenty experienced, yet I limit my shots pretty drastically because I like to make sure I drop the animal quickly, plus I don't see as well as I used to, so seeing the deer and making judgements as to horn size and general maturity is a lot harder for me than it might be for you. It's different for everybody. You might turn out to be a dang fine shot with a rifle, and end up with a 300 Win Mag and a fat scope with the capabilities and experience to take shots out to 400 or even 500 yards.
As for that Marlin for $300, sounds like a good enough deal, and barring the gun looking like a beat up hammer, or having been used like a boat paddle for 80 years, I would pay that. You should look the gun over real well, and take a knowledgeable buddy over to look at it with you. That way, you won't get ripped off. Yes, it can happen! Good luck!
Mark

Jessup,
You about summed it up. I sent the OP a PM, as I know the very area he wants to hunt - I've walked the ground during the spring/summer, but hunt a different spot a couple of miles away. Where he's going he'll be LUCKY to see a deer 200 yds out, and it's fairly common that shots are under 20 yds

Like I said, I've been hunting 2-3 miles from where he is talking about for 30 years, and My father hunted there from the 1930s - I made the LONGEST shot any of us ever made - 225 measured yards, and people were amazed I was able to get a shot that long (OLD woods road abandoned since the 19 teens, but still somewhat clear - pure luck to see the deer)

The SHORTEST shot? Somewhere between 3 and 4 yards - I was sitting up against a stone fence when the deer stepped OVER the fence, walked between my legs, and started walking away - I had to wait for her (it was a doe) to get far enough to raise my rifle - think about it - a 3 yd shot, your rifle is a significant portion of the distance

"...walked between my legs..."

Kindasorta like this ???

That Elk is amazing. That said, the doe was closer that that. I had my legs out in front of me (and I only have a 28" inseam) and the deer actually put her feet (one at a rime) "between the 2 logs" - aka the deers BODY was maybe 6 inches from my head. I was hoping not to get stepped on!

Jumping in a bit late here to echo the positive recommendations. My experiences are in the NY, PA, MD and VA areas, and are that a good lever action 30-30 has been the go-to deer rifle for a long as I can remember.

The woods in these states, for those who have not experienced them, can be and are thick and overgrown. Seeing more than 100 or so yards is often tough, so the range limits of the 30-30 are not important. Most of the users tell me (and me to) that they like the ease and speed of handing in the bush and reliability of the rifle. Cost is reasonable also.

The only thing I would worry about is the growing lack of areas where rifle hunting is legal. Check carefully if there are any plans/rumors about changes to the rules in the area that you will hunt in.

As for price, I haven't bought a new or used rifle in a long time, so I will differ to the other posts on price, but second that a very careful check be made of the rifle.

I think you will be very pleased if you get this or another lever action 30-30. Good luck

The carbine pistol stock is more viable than people think. The problem with most was a poor design with considerable play in most examples EXCEPT the Broomhandle Mauser.
Certain vintage handguns are exempt from the prohibition,being found in collections or arcane calibers.
I owned a C96 commercial in 7.65 with the stock, perhaps the only example that works well.
I took it to Colonel Jeff Coopper's GUNSITE class as a joke, his disdain for small calibers and admiration for the 1911 well known.
After he calmed down, the Col took my broom and proceeded to shoot up a box of fiocchi's at some rather LONG ranges with usefull accuracy and put my few handloaded winchester silvertips into gelatin.
He finished with a undeniable smile and a look of brainstorming some ideas.
Then I pulled out my 3 digit colt navy 1911 and started another lecture about fine fireams.
There is an Arizona sheriff writing for the firearms magazines who carried a 'broom along with his big bore S&W while on horseback for just such an application.
A nearly forgotten firefight between Polish cavalrymen and a Bolshevik unit in the early post ww1 period saw broomhandles VS nagants at close quarters. The polish nearly wiped out the much larger Soviet force.
That little 7.62 was the fastest pistol cartridge until the .357 came out.

Not a "real" gun, but I put one of these on my Crossman model 1377 pellet pistol. That thing is now ACCURATE! I can easily hit sparrow sized targets at 50 yards or more...

Sometime in the distant past I had that same Crosman. It had a removable shoulder stock that replaced the grips. You are correct, it was a great little air gun. Wish I still had it.

I just wish it was .22 cal, instead of .177...