Well, RATS! Now what?

My job requires me to wait for hours alone, next to railroad tracks, at any time of day or night. Sometimes there are water sources, with cougar and bear tracks alongside, not to mention the occasional stray pitbull. I carry a couple of these flares tucked alongside the front seat as my 'weapon'.

A company person did an inspection of my work Suburban, and said the road flares have to go, as they're a fire hazard.

A FIRE HAZARD???

I have never in my life heard of a road flare going off on it's own. I've carried them in car trunks in 117F heat. They may fall apart in time, but how would they ignite if there wasn't something already burning nearby?

Am I missing something here, or is this just the usual company knee-jerk stupidity?

Sue

http://www.udap.com/

In my opinion:

1) It's always easier to beg for forgiveness than it is to get permission.

2) Take the road flares out, point that out to the "supervisor", and then put the road flares back, without advertising.

3) Switch to a flare pistol and commercially available 12 ga flares, without advertising.

4) Procure an expanding baton, without advertising.

That's my $0.02 worth.

Are you sure he didn't mean a fire hazard to start a wildfire if you ever lit them? Saying that they are a fire hazard inside your vehicle sounds too strange.

They are a fire hazard when you use them.
What did you use them for? Is there a replacement that would be more acceptable but still do the job you intend?

Cougars, bears and "the occasional stray pitbull" just aren't much of a threat. And 'flares" aren't much of a defense. In other words your defense is primarily a security blanket, a mental crutch. In the event of an actual attack by the time you could deploy a flare the event would be over. You would be better off with a Louisville Slugger. A simple, effective and vastly underestimated device against man and beast alike.

Possibly the best move would be to talk to the local wildlife officers and either get advice, possibly reassurance that there is really little actual risk, and possible some advice to overcome your fear. The best defense against fear are facts and understanding. Or advice and recommendations on devices you might carry.

I suspect your best bet may be a large can of strong pepper spray.

I don't know about your area, but in many parts of Canada railway companies are hyper-sensitive about fires along the tracks.

I know some local wildfires are caused by stuck brake shoes, bad bearings, etc. sending a spray of sparks into the dry grass beside the tracks. Mostly, these are contained along the line, but in a very dry year things can get out of hand, and the railway is blamed/fined/liable.

An employee causing a fire, even by accident, would put the company on the spot. That may be where the "fire hazard" worry could come from. Once there's a bad incident, there's a blanket policy or a law, applied even where it may not make much sense. If the company doesn't enforce it, and an employee causes an accidental fire, the CEO could find himself in court or worse.

My 2-cents' worth.

Very well said Doug about railways companies concerns over being responsible for causing a forest fire.

As Art said, you may want to look at Bear Spray.

Mike

He indicated that their mere presence was a fire hazard. There is a orange plastic triangle in the car. That ought to scare off anything...

Pepper spray is not the be-all and end-all of animal self-defense. A friend of mine once referred to it as 'seasoning'.

I was not clear in that I would not be protecting myself (I stay in the locked car), but would have a weapon handy if one of the crews who has to stop and get off the train to operate the switches happened to be be attacked.

Animals often go for the head/neck/throat/shoulders of their prey. Spraying both the animal and its victim in the face at the same time just doesn't seem like the best thing to do, to me.

I guess I could carry my kaybar, but they would probably fuss about that, too.

So, has anyone heard of these things spontaneously igniting?

Sue

The inspection sounds silly and I wouldn't be surprised if next month you are warned by a supervisor for not having proper safety equipment in your car.

This headline from 3 days ago might have motivated the most recent inspection: "Union Pacific Railroad Co. has agreed to pay $102 million for a huge California wildfire sparked by its workers...."

Here is the full story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-22-railroad-lawsuit_N.htm?csp=34

Hi Susan,

I have had road flares in my vehicles (truck, car. van, snowmobile, ATV, boat) for 30 years, never had one go off on it's own.

Just thinking on the level of risk from wildlife involved in a person getting off a train, moving a switch, then getting in a vehicle? Have any railroad workers every been attacked in the past? Maybe the company already has a policy on wild animal dangers and how to deal with them? If it is a significant danger then bring it up to your employer and the Health & Safety Committee for a solution.

I would think that the greater danger to both the track workers and yourself would come from 2 legged predators.

Mike

The be-all end-all of animal self-defense is a 12 gauge shotgun, but your employer may take issue with you carrying one of those around.

The Alaska Department of Natural Resources recommends pepper spray in bear country. So I don't think it's just 'seasoning'.

"...an expanding baton..."

A felony in some places, like CA...

I carried two or three cases of 30 minutes flares in my trunk for a jillion years. But departmental policy said no flares inside of the vehicle. Fire hazard they claimed. I am like you, I can not see one of those things going off by itself. A lot are a real pain to get lit when you want to. And, if you start swinging one around to scare a critter off, watch out for flying fire. You can easily start a brush fire, and for sure will burn holes in whatever you are wearing. Nylon and some other synthetics will melt right into your skin...

Thank you, Yuccahead for that article. I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with this situation, despite the fact that that fire was started by welders working on the tracks. You see, the flares that were currently in the vehicle were placed there BY the company. This is an about-face on their part.

OBG, I'm just as careful with flares as I am with matches, lighters and campfires. VERY.

SwampDonkey, Safety issues are only given lip service by this company. They cause more problems than they've ever solved. I've checked around, and no one seems to care what they do.

This article from yesterday's local paper indicates the nature of the cougar problem in this area: http://chronline.com/storyoutdoors.php?s...amp;ucat=6&

Sue

See my earlier posts about aerosol spray cans and an ignition source. If you need to use fire as a defesne, a poor man's flamethrower would be more effective and a lot quicker to deploy IMHO. Also a lot less likely to be viewed as any sort of risk by some would-be company rep.

Quicker yet would be a .45 ACP pistol, such as a Glock G-36 or G-21 if you have large enough paws. Even a 9mm such as G-19 I carry when in WA would be a step up from nothing.

Concealed carry is legal in WA with a CPL and while your supe can inspect the truck, he shouldn't be inspecting you. Why plan to use a half-assed weapon when you can carry a real one that will be more than a warm blanket. $.02

I don't know, never been attacked by a super predator, never considered it either. Boars and jackals don't really warrant defensive measures, since they just want to be left alone. I carry a knife in case they're having a bad day, but plan to use rocks as my primary weapon.

My plan for bear attacks is to basically "run" or "die", as fast as possible in both cases. I guess some sort of a stink-based weapon could work as both effective and public-safe defense.



Um, wouldn't that harm both the attacker and attacked equally if used for defending a third party?

Come to think of it, wouldn't a flare have the exact same effect???

Law enforcement probably carries millions of flares in their patrol cars. In my years of service, I have never heard of a roadflare accidental discharge.

Has anyone ever used a flare against a bear? It's hard for me to believe that this might work. Harder to believe that one would trust their life to depending on it. A flare, in my mind, is an up-close, contact weapon. Imagine how much time you are going to need for it to work, when all the while the bear is charging and mauling.

I would want some bear spray and a firearm.

I imagine its a knee-jerk reaction, and yet another "zero-tolerance", "zero-intellegence" mandate. We recently had one here regarding eye protection. Every plant employee must now wear safety glasses when outside the office area. Now according to OSHA, they are only required when charging or changing the batteries on the cherry picker, changing the propane tanks on the lift truck, working with caustic materials(my water softner chemicals), or where there is flying debris. Such as working with the drills, saws, grinders, etc..
But because our insurance company wants to minimize actually having to pay out, they have decided to require our company to mandate wearing safety glasses. In 90 degree weather with humidity rarely dropping below the 80's here in Florida, it means im walking/working blind from sweat and "fogging" of the glasses most of the time. But hey, at least my eyeballs will be safe.

-Bill Liptak

Bet ya have to wear hardhats too, huh? Reflective vests will be next...

I'm confused, you're sitting in a Suburban and you're worried about animal attacks?

Why not simply drive away? The only animals that can outrun a vehicle are the cheetah and the greyhound, neither of which are too likely to be found along any railroad tracks in North America.

Or am I missing something?

John E

Well, if one smells food inside, a lowly black bear can take the door off of just about any vehicle made in a very short time. Ask anyone who has seen the pictures posted in Sequoia National Park (for one)...

A 12 ga. flare pistol sounds promising. At close range, I imagine it would pack a pretty good punch.

There are studies that suggest that pepper spray is actually less likely to provoke a bear.

Maybe a supersoaker filled with ammonia or tabasco?
Relatively non-toxic, easily obtainable, and easily explainable-"I came to work directly from a pool party..."Can't claim that a squirt gun is a fire hazard.

Fastest land mammal in the world is a cheetah, they top out at approx. 60 mph. 2nd fastest is a race trained greyhound, they can accelerate up to about 45 mph in 2-3 strides, bears can move faster than an human can run but they can't run faster than someone driving a car, particularly a car with it's doors locked and windows rolled up. Presumably you drove the vehicle to wherever you're sitting, presumably you can also drive it away, why in the world would a person willingly engage a bear or any other critter for that matter, when they can drive away?

Not trying to be difficult, I just don't see a problem.

Not to mention that using a road flare as the means for defense means that you're going to be within arm's reach of your opponent. Why get so close when you have a steel encased movable box to use?

John E

'Specially if you do what LEO's do, at least the smart ones. Once you get to your destination, you back into whatever location you want to park. You have all the time in the world when you are parking, but you might need to get moving in a hurry, and you can do that much faster if you are already pointing out...

Having done work of this sort, the "call of nature" comes to mind ...

Ok, that's one thing that might cause someone to get out of their car. I find it a little hard to believe that a person couldn't take some very basic precautions before exiting the vehicle to help ensure that no bears are around and waiting to attack.

Things like blowing the horn for a few minutes, make other noises, etc.

Sorry I just don't see the problem, no offense intended to the original poster.

John E

look at that police car's picture...

For those who didn't read all the posts here:

I go to the pickup site. In daylight, I position the vehicle for a fast getaway, preferably where I can see the switch. At night, I aim the headlights where the crew member will be working. I scan the area for movement. The conductor gets off the train, goes to the switch mechanisms, operates them, the train slowly moves onto the spur. The conductor remains on the ground. He or she waits until all three engines and 115-125 cars go past at low speed. Then he/she realigns the switches for main-line passage. The conductor gets in my Suburban and we go find the head of the train and get the engineer.

I am not afraid for myself, I can leave, and pretty darn fast, too!

The conductor is not armed. It takes at least 5 minutes for the train to pass at 5+- mph. One switch is very near a popular water source for wildlife. The thought of driving away while someone's head is in a cougar/bear's mouth just doesn't appeal to me.

You don't think that a lit flare stuck in your face would discourage you?

This is a trashy, slave-labor job. I can't afford car insurance, much less a gun.

"Optimum" is not an issue here.

Flares seemed to be the safest, most convenient, most useful make-do weapon that could be thrust into the face of a predator with a reasonable amount of accuracy without injuring the conductor (much). A flare might also discourage a predator from coming closer.

Thank you all for the recommendations.

Sue

Susan,

How would a taser or a good stun stick work?

no fire hazzard, no chance of the wind blowing it back in your face, hopefully no harm to the friendly in the area.

Well that certainly explains the situation a bit better. Wouldn't the train passing by tend to scare off any predators?

A handheld flare just isn't a weapon, it's not safe for the person trying to use it as such. You're much more likely to start a fire than scare off an animal.

What part of the country is this taking place in?

It's gets curiouser and curiouser...

John E

"Wouldn't the train passing by tend to scare off any predators?"

You would think so, wouldn't you? But my crews are always telling me about the animals the trains kill. Most of them don't like it, but there isn't anything they can do about it.

Sometimes I take the utility guy out to a switch, and it's quiet there as we wait for the train. A train that is approaching a spur switch is moving at a slow walk. Creeping. Not quiet, but it isn't making the noise that a highballing one does.

"What part of the country is this taking place in?"

Central (N-S) western WA.

Sue