Training gun preferences?

I'm starting to practice some krav maga on my own and I'm considering a training gun to add to my practice. In the training DVD's, they recommend the ASP red guns for training. Someone I practice TKD with likes the blueguns for training and says that they are actual weight of the live weapon. I notice that ads for the ASP red guns say "lightweight".

Does anyone have experience with either of these training aids? What are your preferences/recommendations?

For most use, I think the lighter Red Guns are the best choice. The lighter weight reduces injury, both from the flying object and in the retention drills. After you gain some skill, then either the Red Guns at full weight or the Blue guns are good. I personally do not like the color of the Blue guns because I also use the Simunitions Blue guns and I like to have an instant check that there are no live guns in use (yes, Sims are live guns). The few blue guns I have are painted red.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Before I retired, we carried S&W 4006's, and had redguns for training. I carried a Safariland leven 2 holster, and the redgun would not fit into it unless I really backed off the little screw. Then I had to re-adjust it for my "real" pistol. I did not like that. I would prefer one of the bright yellow fake barrels that you replace your real barrel with. Same weapon, same weight, same holster fit, easily seen to be a safe weapon...

Why not train with the actual gun you are going to use or carry? You can buy snap caps (dummy ammo) to cycle the action and fire it with so you don’t damage the firing pin.

People have died doing that......

All the sources I have read/seen say to NEVER train with a live weapon for disarms...no matter what.

And to clarify, I am asking what people prefer/recommend as far as disarming drills, not any other type of drills...no way for me to legally carry in this county if I wanted to anyhow...

Since you are training on your own:

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Go fast and something is going to get hurt.

Not with an empty gun or one with snap caps.

As a prior training officer for a fairly large sheriffs department, we used a heavy blue gun for training. I can’t remember who made them, but I believe we got them thru Galls. They were the exact size, shape, and weight of the actual weapons we carried on duty. I never used real weapons to train with for weapons retention, and disarming techniques. I didn’t use them because, because metal has way less give than your hand does and injury is not a likely with real weapons but a certainty. Make no mistake you can get hurt with the plastic guns too but they have more forgiving on the hands just don’t keep a finger on the trigger or it will get broke. Also the training weapon will be dropped and thrown during the course and me personally, I don’t want my pistol being thrown around hitting the walls and floor all day. I don’t have any experience with the light weight red guns mentioned but using a training gun the same weight and size of actual weapons would be better for you, you may not think so at the end of a long training session but you will if the need arises in the field.

Using a real gun for this sort of practice would violate at least one of the 10 commandments for firearms.

There have been quite a few people who've been killed with "empty" guns. Don't take the chance. As a range officer, I've had at least three incidents where someone with an "empty" gun had an accidental discharge. Thankfully all were in a safe direction.

Guns have a funny way of reloading themselves. OBG, you tell 'em.

Guns have a funny way of reloading themselves.

Years ago my partner and I were invited to a LAPD training day, at Universal Studios of all places. Great place to train. Anyway, in those days everyone carried wheelguns, and they practiced with cases that had been primed only, at their academy. Each case was inspected twice, by the person priming them, and another who boxed them. No one (except my partner and I) were allowed on the bus that transported the officers from their station to Universal with any ammo whatsoever. As the cases were issued they were again inspected twice, by the person issuing, and the officer receiving. Three officers received loaded wadcutter rounds! That is why I like the idea of the fake barrels, a round can not be chambered (we are of course talking semi-autos here), and everyone can see the yellow in the ejection port, and at the muzzle...

A guy that I teach TKD with says this a lot. He's full of crap most of the time (you know the type, always right, always has a better story, no one else's ideas are as good, always wants to look smart and important...)

Most of the time his ideas are to be taken with a grain of salt, but I agree with him on this one. I've expressed this idea to the kids we work with from something I learned as a musician..."If you can't play it (do it) slow, you can't play it fast".

The kids, when learning a new technique always want to do it fast right away, without learning the mechanics, and they always do it wrong and someone usually gets hurt at least a little.

Point being...good advice Xavier.

I would err on the side of caution and use the red guns. Red, like the orange, is a signal to all that the weapon is not real. I know, I know, who carries a blue gun? However, there is nothing wrong with training with a lightweight weapon.

Here's a revelaton: not all weapons weigh the same! Also, you cannot poll your adversary to see which weapon they are using so you can calibrate your technique to weapon weight.

When I would worked with a smaller person in karate on take-ddown techniques, I would just stand there until they finally performed it right. Being tossed to the ground, with authority and force, by someone who is only 5'5" 140lbs shows it is about technique. I was 6'1" 215lbs at the time. Technique, technique, technique...

The majority of training is about the perfection of the movement and technique. A few ounces of weight difference should not impact your abilities once said technique is learned.

All that said, I could still be full of a decent amount of dookie.

I am definitely in agreement with those who say to not use a gun that could function. It's simply not a safe enough thing to do, no matter how many times it has been checked. I recently handled a pistol that I know has been disabled, because it was welded that way, decades ago. Still should be treated as if it could fire.

Otherwise, the idea behind slow practice, and I am aware of it's use in tai chi, is that you do it slow to do it PERFECT. If you have it slow and perfect, then when you seek to do it fast, it are unlikely to be good enough.

Hi Ors,

The ASP "Red Guns" are considerable lighter than an actual firearm. I have never used "Blue Guns" but have used heavier, solid metal replica firearms in weapon retention and disarming drills. In disarming techniques the firearm is often twisted violently and fingers can get trapped in the trigger gaurd with resulting physical damage, therefore some training guns have the trigger gaurd removed. Concerning weapon retention, the trigger gaurd is often required to work with the holster design to "lock" the firearm into the holster, retention drills use this system to advantage.

During an assault when a person is trying to take your firearm you are in a fight for your life. In a high stress situation you will instantly revert back to your training, so you practice the drills with near the same intensity as in a real situation. Firearms are often dropped or thrown during training. The fight you are in is with your assailant; when you are in a hand-on-hand struggle over possession/retention of a firearm, a few ounces of firearm weight difference is not noticed. That being said if I was going to purchase one replica training "gun" I would try to have it duplicate my firearm exactly, but be of a bright colour.

I would never use an actual firearm in retention/disarming drills. Safety mistakes can and have happened and I would not want to subject a firearm that I may later stake my life on, to that amount of unrequired abuse.

Train the way you live and stay safe,

Mike

When us bouncers used to informally train (beat the hell out of each other) we tried to use what was as close to the real thing as possible. This way IRL the "mechanics" are the same, the real gun and dummy gun wil throw the same distance, hit equally as hard in a pistolwhip/barrel thump.....etc.
So my recommandation is to get a blue gun, it may hurt a little more at times but to quote a famous shrink "that which does not kill us makes us stronger".
And to add my 2¢, I would only train with a real gun IF, and only if, it had one one bright yellow polymer barrel inserts. There is no chamber, so even if live bullets were used in the clip to fully simulate weight a round COULD NOT MYSTEROUSLY FIND ITS WAY INTO BATTERY. The one slight, and extremely narrow debateable advantage this would allow is to train the possibilty of pushing/shoving the slide back in a gun grab, then gripping it with hells fury while you try to finish getting the gun out of the opponents hand. By pushing it out of battery, usually as little as ¼" will keep the weapon from firing. It has happened IRL, more often than not purely by luck, but it can and does happen.

-Bill Liptak

Red or Blue.....just NOT a REAL one!!!!!!!!!!

Please do not become "One for my files" of the stories that my students get on What NOT to do.....

Stay safe.

+1 to that!

I've used both and it really doesn't matter. You want to learn a technique, not draw and shoot it. One thing I would recomend is that you file off the sights on whatever training gun you buy. I've lost lots of skin on plastic sights.

For what it's worth I've even traced the outline of my pistol onto a 2x6 and used a jig-saw to cut it out. I then rounded off the corners and painted it. The beauty of that was there was no trigger hole to put a finger into and thus loose a finger.

Take Care and Stay Safe.

As a graduate of several firearm training courses, both municipal and private, I firmly subscribe (and dilligently practice) the following four firearm safety rules:

1). Always treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2). Never allow the muzzle to cover anything that you are not willing to destroy.
3). Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until ready to shoot.
4). Be certain of the target and what's in line with it, both in front of and beyond it.


One interesting thing that I noticed while attending the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute is that they absolutely refuse to ever use the term "accidental discharge". Firearms simply don't discharge by themselves, so anytime a firearm discharges "accidentally", one or more of the four rules above have not been followed, and therefore by definition the more appropriate term to use is "negligent discharge".

Jim

As I've always told my students.....more people have been shot with an 'unloaded' firearm than just about any other kind.....


That usually gets them thinking......

An unloaded firearm is more dangerous than a loaded one.

Ors,

This is my 2cents worth....

I have always used this model pellet gun for training disarms.

http://www.amazon.com/Marksman-MARKSMAN-1010-AIR-PISTOL/dp/B00069PQ5Y

Simmilar to a Colt 1911 style in shape. metal body so it has some weight.

reasons for this live gun use:

1) allows you to know if you got off the line before the trigger was pulled. you will feel the puff of air hit you.

2) allows the disarmer to practice getting to the fingerbreak barter/negotiation position.

3) allows for controling firearm while you access your own weapon, (knife, gun, kubotan/palmstick)

how the gun is set up for training. Place 2 full wraps of tape around the tip-up barrel, preventing it from being loaded with a projectile.

PRIOR TO EVERY TRAINING SESSION PARTENERS CHECK THEIR GUN BY DRY FIRING AT A SAFE TARGET, SHAKING THE GUN TO CONFIRM NO B.B.'S IN THE RESIVOR THEN DRY FIRING AGAIN AT A SAFE TARGET. (Then the partner rechecks the gun in the same way.)

I personally have never used the red or blue training guns,or a funtional firearm in practice.

If you wanted to the air soft guns would probably wook just as well if you could find one with a metal body. Just remember to wear safetyglasses when you train.

Also, I do not know what videos you have or specifically what disarms you are practicing, but work on checking the weapon before it is drawnor drawing it off you opponent. The second one
drawing your opponets weapon first happened during knife vs. empty hand training with me pulling a joke on my partner. It was very funny hearing him tell me he had the knife (live blade) and he was the one defending and I was not supposed to yell freeze! (our command word to notify your parner you were about to open your knife and demonstrate weather or not you could make a valid cut.) As he was telling me to stop he relized he could not find his knife, then asked how I had his knife.

The second time this happened I disarmed an assailent before he tried to pull his knife on a woman.