Buying my first rifle...looking for advice

I hope you're all happy!!! When I joined this forum the last thing I thought I'd ever buy would be a gun.

Yesterday I passed my government safety test and I'll be submitting my paperwork to get a posession and aquisition license on Monday.

Suddenly many doors of recreation have opened up to me. My dad has recently wanted to get into hunting at the age ove 65 and now he doesn't have to go alone! During the training I learned about skeet shooting, bird hunting, and all the other fun things you can do...but I have a problem...

I don't know what to buy and I don't have a deep enough wallet to buy one of everything (nor would my wife approve of my suddenly picking up 5 rifles). I'll be going to check out some options today after work but I figured I'd get some advice from the opinions I respect the most...yours.

I'm thinking that the best way to go would be find a single choice which can cover as many bases as possible without breaking the bank. One option which caught my eye was a Mossberg 535 ATS Deer combo with the regular and rifled barrels. I can't find any other option that can do so much for the money. What do you folks recommend?

Where's Taurus when you need him? This is partially his fault!

I don't have any advice on type or caliber, but I suggest
finding a large gun store and look at their stock of used guns. My first guns were all used in order to save some money. A well cared for gun will last almost forever. I still own every gun I have ever purchased and most of my favorites were purchased used.

What do you want to do, hunting (and hunt what?) plinking, home defense. It’s hard to say what gun to buy when you don’t say what you want to do.


Also it depends on likes. Most people like a given style of gun over another.

I like single shot handguns and bolt action rifles. My son loves to rip through ammo and likes semi autos.

Hi Hacksaw,

Welcome to the Dark Side!

A 12ga. repeating shotgun is a good all-around choice for a first gun (but you will never stop at just one), I set-up my do-it-all shotgun on the Remington 870 Pump action and use it often.
If you get into Big Game hunting you will want a centrefire rifle, and everyone needs a .22 rimfire also.

I would love to discuss gun selection at length with you but I am taking the kids (30) camping for the weekend and am scrambling to pack. I will give you LOTS of input (as I am sure many ETS's Forum members will), on Sunday night.

Later Brother,

Mike

Get a .308 or .30-06 for your rifle and a 12-gauge with a Modified Choke pump shotgun. The need of a .22 goes without saying. So, you are now at three firearms, not five. That should encourage your wife....

I agree, go used if you can...

Like a few said a 12Ga pump with changeable barrels is a great first or only gun. Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 are both inexpensive and very reliable.
With a 12ga you have all types of bird shot, buck shot (OO is good) as well as slugs. You can also modify it to a folding stock or pistol grip depending on your local laws.
The 12Ga pump is very versatile and VERY effective except for great distances.
Good luck getting only one gun.....
Bill

I think a shotgun is a good choice, if you are only going to have one firearm, because of it's flexibility. A good friend has and really likes his Mossberg, although I think he has the 500. I doubt there is a much of a difference in how it works.

The other shotgun you might consider that is similar is the Remington 870. It's probably the most popular shotgun ever made. So, lots of them are around and lots of parts for them are around. And it simply works. When it is cold and wet and not taken care of, it still seems to work. When it doesn't work, it's not tough to take down and fix. I bought a Remington 870 Wingmaster used for about $250.

If you are shooting skeet, it's tough to shoot the doubles with a pump. A double is when targets are launched from both houses, probably less than a second apart. You need to hit one, then shoot the other. With an autoloader, you pull the trigger once then twice. With a pump, you'd need to find time to pump in between. Your other option are just don't shoot the doubles, shoot the targets flying single for fun and enjoy or get an autoloader from the range when you want to try to shoot doubles. I've done both. My wife has an autoloader, but so far I have not shot her 20 gauge youth model.

My shotgun recommendations always go the same way, Remington 870 Wingmaster Magnum (the Express line took some shortcuts to reduce price I don't like). I like the magnum because it gives you the option of shooting 3" shells but handles 2 3/4" just as well as the 2 3/4" guns do. I'm not sold on the 3 1/2" Super Magnum, if you need that much payload, get something in 10 gauge.

The thing that's great about Rem 870's is the aftermarket. You can get extra barrels (swapping barrels on an 870 is way easy) and stock sets to make the gun fit you. I had no need or desire to get extended magazines or any of the other tacticool BS that folks like to hang on their guns; it just screws up the balance. One of the better guns I own was a used 870 field gun (2 3/4") that I bought a new barrel and stock set for to use at Trap and Skeet.

After you've broken it in you can give it to your grandson.

I've shot Skeet doubles with an 870 pump It's a challenge but it can be done and it's a huge confidence builder knowing you can shoot, swing/pump and shoot. Do not baby the 870, pump it hard as you swing and concentrate on the second bird.

One more thing. Guns are alot like golf clubs in that spending more money doesn't usually make you better golfer or a better shot. I guess my advice is to start with a modest purchase and shoot often.

Learn what you like and don't like about your first gun. Proceed from there.

BTW, my first gun and rifle was a used .22 Mossberg model 140b. I still have it, and it is still my favorite for recreational shooting among many choices.

I think the first rifle everyone should have is a small bore (like .22LR). Ammo is so cheap and plentiful and it's fun and easy to shoot. Lets you get in plenty of practice.

After that, I'd go with a 12-gauge and then .308 like MoBob said. Then you've got pretty much all bases covered.

If you really want to cover everything I would pick up a small frame pistol (either in .357 [which would shoot .38 as well] or 9mm) and a semi-automatic rifle in .223 or 7.62x39. But, that depends on the legalities in your area and how far you (and your wife) want to go.

On a side note: My paternal grandfather and my great-uncle on my mothers side (who never met each other) both chose a semi-auto .22LR and a smooth bore pump 12ga shotgun as their only firearms. Which I thought was very interesting.

After some questioning and thought, I figured out why. A shotgun loaded with slugs can take out deer at 50 yards pretty easily, can take out birds in the sky with bird shot, and if someone comes in your house unannounced, hearing that slide rack is enough to make most of them do an abrupt about-face.

The semi-auto .22 was more for shooting practice and varmint control, but it also was easy and fun for just about anyone to fire, from kids to the elderly. My grandmother used it quite a few times to get rid of small rodents tearing up her garden.

Therefore, between the two firearms they could take care of just about any normal task on their property. To them it had nothing to do with survival or bugging out, these were more or less just tools for use around their homes.

When I think about it, if I could only choose two I would choose the same they did, a semi-auto .22LR (like a Ruger 10/22) and a smooth bore pump 12ga shotgun in 2 3/4" or 3".

Now, if I could choose five, I would pick the .22LR, the shotgun, a good .308, a good pocket-able .357, and an AR or Mini-14.

After that, just for fun, a good .45 (probably a 1911), a lever action rifle in .357, and one of those awesome S&W .460 revolvers. But, that's just me.

err....I better stop before I get way off topic.

Just to mix it up, how about a combo shotgun-rifle, or a multi-barrel system? Here are a few sites at which to look.

http://www.savagearms.com/24f12.htm

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/combination_shotgun-Rifle/SPR94.asp

European American Armory has added a new combination rimfire rifle/.410 gauge shotgun to its line of quality affordable Baikal firearms. The Model IZH94 features a rimfire upper rifle chambered in either .22LR or .22WMR and a lower .410 gauge lower shotgun. Key features include hammer forged chrome-lined barrels, checkered polished walnut stock and forend, machined steel receiver and monoblock, extractors, screw chokes, iron sights and 11 mm scope rail. Contact European American Armory, P.O. Box 1299, Sharpes, FL 32959, telephone: (321) 639-4842, fax: (321) 639-7006, Web site: www.eaacorp.com.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/baikal.html


Switchable barrels

http://www.rossiusa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=S2022243RS&category=MATCHEDSET

In a survival situation: single shot reliability and ease of maintenance, redundancy, choice of ammunition to carry and use, increased ability to use foraged ammo, in-the-field flexibility, etc.

Get more than one to cover various caliber options in a couple of weapons?

I think your choice of a shotgun with interchangable barrels is ideal for your situation. You will be able to do just about anything you want with that gun, so long as you do your part to work within your limitations. You will be able to use that gun to hunt deer, elk, moose, caribou, black bear, and many similar big game species, as well as turkey, waterfowl, upland birds, and varmints. You will have to keep in mind the effective range of that firearm for big game is going to be less than 150 yards, but most big game are taken at shorter distances anyways. The various Mossberg configurations do quite well for all the different bird and close in varmint hunting needs, and the Mossberg actions are basic, rugged, and reliable. Consider also that the same gun equipped with a 20" barrel is a most effective self defense tool for the home.

Like others have said, I would strongly recommend getting a 22 rifle as well. It will save loads on target practice and be much more pleasant for you to shoot, and has a number of good uses as well, for not that much money.

Centerfire rifles are generally more effective for harvesting big game, especially at longer distances. But the rifled bore shotgun is a darned good compromise, and has put plenty of venison on people's tables. A one ounce slug with a muzzle velocity of 1,500 fps is a quite realistic load, and generates over a ton of energy. It is only slightly less than a typical 308 or 270 hunting load.

I suppose you recall these discussions:

air rifles / pistols

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116170&fpart=1

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.ph...=true#Post92826

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Definately keep them coming!

I've always planned on getting a .22LR...but there are so many options and I'm more picky because for that one I want a take down gun that can be packed in a backpack so I can hike in to take small game.

The more I read about it the more I like interchangable or multiple barrels. With interchangables I could have a rifle and a shotgun and cover just about everything under the sun. Plus it would be possible to take some versatility on a hunting trip without having to pack an arsenal.

Unfortunately hand guns are out. Illegal to hunt with them in Canada and just owning them is a nightmare I'm intentionally avoiding by not getting my restricted firearms license.

To answer the question a couple of you asked (and a couple more are wondering I'm sure) Any big game hunting I do will likely be deer. But I'd also like to have a shotgun with slugs as I'd like to do some fly in fishing up north where you can't go in without at least a high powered rifle in case of a polar bear attack. And I'm seriously considering trying skeet for the practice and for a place to use a shotgun that doesn't require killing something (I don't have a deep freeze )

Oh one more thing. I'm left handed. I know there are lots of good left handed options on the market but when it comes to less expensive and used, the options die down. A pump (or even break) action can be used left handed...not so with a bolt action.

Hacksaw,

My advice is to wait on buying a firearm. The reason is you may be able to join a loal shooting/gun club and shoot some of the members guns at the local range. This will allow you to get a feel for the particular firearms you are interested in, and aside from some money for ammunition will be far less costly than buying without knowing for sure you like the particular high dollar purchase.

While I have had no experience with the Remington 870,I have yet to meet an owner with any complaints. I do own 2 Mossberg 500s though and have had no problems with either one. I managed to pick up an extra 30" barrel that fits them. It was used and missing the front bead sight for $15.00, and well worth it. Cost another $8.00 to replace the sight. Point is there may bee some good used parts and guns in your area also.

I will agree with the other responses in that a pumpaction shotgun and a semiautomatic .22 rifle are a great pair of tools for general use. 12ga shotgun ammunition is probably the most avalible through out the USA, as opposed to 16ga or .410.

Congradulations on passing the test and deciding to buy a firearm.

Joe

The one thing I don't like about those break barrel rifles/shotguns with switch-able barrels, is they're usually only one shot. Most of the time that's fine, but having a quick follow-up shot at the ready can mean the difference between putting food on the table or just wasting a day.

The same idea follows if you are planning on using it for defense from animals (or people). On a break action, you might only get one or two shots out if you're lucky, and it's easy to fumble reloading. Even on an internal magazine bolt-action rifle, it's fast and easy to get four or five shots out. On a pump shotgun, you can get even more with an extended tube. It might give you more of a chance.

A single shot break action rifle/shotgun may be plenty most of the time, but then again, it might not be. Your level of comfort determines what you're willing to carry. I, personally, just wouldn't be comfortable with a single shot break action gun as my only firearm. I want at least two shots before taking the time to reload.

Again, that's just my opinion.

Look into a Savage model 24, I have one. Mine is a 22-LR and a 20-guage shotgun. It’s a hinge gun that you can break down into 2-pecies with no tools. Savage makes these in numerous combinations of calibers.

One drawback if that after every shot you have to open the gun and put in a new round or shell.

If you are interested in seeing how it breaks down, let me know and I will take a few pictures that show the progression and post them.



I use to work at a gun shop that my friend owns, people would always ask what would be a good first gun. We always said a 22-LR. You could see it in a lot of their faces that they wanted more power, a 357 Mag. Or 44 Mag. I never understood asking the question when they already made up their mind. But you really should start out with a 22-LR.

$17.00 gets you 500 22 rounds.

3006 Rifle rounds….$22.00 for 20-rounds

25 Shotgun shells……$5.00

50 357-Mag rounds….. $20.00

50-9MM rounds…………$15.00

.

On the shotgun front I would look into bottom-eject such as the Ithaca 37 shotguns have. This saves you having a hull flying past your face upon ejection. If you can get your hands on an Ithaca 37 Deerslayer 12 guage - do it!!! They were a great shotgun. I have a slight preference for the Ithaca as you can tell. However, I am not affiliated with them either privately or professionally; I'm just hooked on them.... Ithacagun.com

If this is a social gun, check with your most likely companions, think strongly about getting the same calibers they use, and follow your heart. Have fun.

If this is a survival gun, ignore your buddies unless they are into survival thinking, get calibers that are time-tested and for which ammo most available, and follow your head - not mine or that of anybody else. Live long.

If it is to be both, good luck.

I understand what you are saying, the Savage 24 is a single shot, but it’s got 2-barrels. You can get off another shot by just pulling the hammer back & flipping the lever to the other barrel. I can do this in under one second with one hand. Once the 2-shots are fired you have to open it and reload.


The Savage 24 is a great survival gun, doing a search on line will probably confirm that many people love it for this purpose. It gives you the 22-LR for small game hunting, plinking and even defense. And the shotgun barrel for large and small game hunting, lots of power for home defense and it will shoot a deer slug. A deer slug is very powerful.

When I took my training, one of the disabled test rifles was a Savage 24. It was old of course (they wouldn't waste a new gun for this purpose) and I liked it though I might prefer a larger gauge.

The ammo aspect is important which is why I'm leaning towards 12 gauge and .22LR (even if that means having to ultimately buy 2). They're common and cheap by comparison.

When I'm at the shop tonight I'll ask about Ithacas...sounds interesting.

I'm in no rush. I'm going to check out as many as possible and fire as many as possible before I buy. It's going to take me nearly 3 months to get my actual license anyhow.

You could buy a Norinco M-14 copy for a reasonable price and wave it in the faces of Americans who can't get one

If you're looking for a .22lr rifle that breaks down the AR-7 fits the bill nicley. I think the rifle is now sold by Henry Firearms. The barrel unscrews from the action, and both pieces fit into the stock. The whole thing will float if dropped into the water, another plus from a survival stance. If however you don't need it to break down Taurus Firearms makes a nifty .22 pump action rifle like they used to have in the carnival shooting galleries many years ago. Pump action and either bolt or lever action guns may serve you better if you plan on taking them out in the cold of winter. Less likely to have the action gum up because of lubricants freezing.
As far as a 12gauge shotgun goes, either a remmington 870 or mossberg 500 is what I would recommend (both pump action). I own a mossberg 590 (cause I'm a tacticool idiot at times) and a maverick 88 (mossberg 500 clone) with a pistol grip.

-Bill Liptak

If your not opposed to a single shot look into the savage field grade over and unders with a rifle on top and shotgun under they come in various combinations and are good rifles I had one in .22 & 410 and with rifled slugs the 410 was a pretty good hunting rifle. Also look into the NEF combos they are a poor mans encore as far as the ability to buy black powder, shotgun, and rifle barrels. New barrels are relitivly cheap as is the original setup. Both are good ideas for a person on a budget and give options of more calibers, and gauges without the buying more guns.

If I had to choose only one I would go for a good pump 12ga shotgun. By just changing the shells, and perhaps the choke tube, you can shoot anything from mice to moose. With slugs you can reach out to 150m or better. Most game shooters don't shoot at much longer ranges than that.

As far as 12ga pump shotguns go it is hard to beat a Remington 870. And they are pretty reasonably priced.

This is a fine can or worms you've open up. Which is good.

Start with a .22 it's cheap and will give you a general knowlege and skills. A good shotgun (like the one you sugessted) is a good way to also. So that's 2 so far. You said you can't have a handgun

My rifle of choice would be this:

BUSHMASTER FLAT TOP M4 6.8MM 16" W/FLIP (AR TYPE CARBINE)

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/...ProductID=33219

In my dreams anyway

Go with your first choice.

Blitz

I just got back from my first shopping trip and I sure hope that the other shops I visit are better.

I told the guy I was new to shooting and was thinking about getting a 12 gauge combo. Rifled barrel for deer plus the regular barrel.

He proceeded to show me a Tikka T3 Lite .308. Nice gun but completely not what I was talking about. But it's what 'he would buy' so I guess I don't know what I want in his opinion...I won't be going back there.

Based on what I saw there (and NOT what I heard) I think I agree with Art. A good 12ga shot gun is the most versatile I can get for the money for what I want to get started with.

The advice to buy a pump shotgun is good advice. A 12 gage is probably the most versatile single gun you can buy. The Remington 870 is a great pump and can be customized with many different barrels from 18" to 30", rifle, scope or shotgun sights, smooth barrel with no choke (for shot shells and rifled slugs) or smooth with interchangeable chokes, or rifled barrel for shooting sabot slugs (but no shot shells). It can be used to hunt anything from dove or quail to grizzly (in a pinch - it's a very common guide gun in griz country). It's darned accurate with the rifled barrel, and not bad with the smooth barrel. It's great for home defense as well. An 18" barrel with BB shot shells will blow a hole the size of a dinner plat through a solid wood door at 15 feet. It can be modified with a plain pistol grip instead of a stock (an unpleasant shooting experience) or with a folding, non-folding or telescoping pistol grip shoulder stock. You can get mag extensions that allow it to hold as many as ten shells. Most of the same can be said for the Mossberg pumps as well. Just learn how to hold it to your shoulder when shooting or you will not like the outcome, shoulder-wise. Good shooting.

Hacksaw,
I agree with most of the posts about the remington 870. My department, and I would venture to guess 9 out every ten dept. in the lower 48 have this gun in their inventory. Why you ask? .... because it works!.. Nothing fancy just a gun that will function everytime! Because it is such a popular gun There are endless aftermarket products for this gun and you can configure it anyway you want.
As for a .22 rifle, I am a big fan of the Ruger 10/22. It is another example of a gun that just keeps on going. I have one in particular that I have had since I was 15. It still functions perfectly. And boy did I abuse that gun as a kid.
In the end I would certainly recomend you talk to one of the folks on here that is from your neck of the woods that is into hunting. Taurus is one that comes to mind. He would be more in the know as to what is good for that region.
Best of luck and welcome to the world of firearms.
mtnlvr68

Let’s get it straight here, a shotGUN, is not a rifle, even if it has a rifled barrel.

The original question was "Buying my first rifle...looking for advice"

Am I wrong?

Anyway, for your first I would suggest a nice little brunette…err I mean .22 LR and go out an plink at some inanimate object (paper target) that will not ricochet, (sue for child support)

This is my Rifle, this is my Gun...

Blitz

The Mossberg 535 mentioned in the OP is a pump shotgun.

OK Russ,

You are correct, I guess I was going by the title of his post. Boy, do I have egg on my face. Anyway I have a Mossberg (590) and I love it dearly, it sleeps very close to me.

Blitz

A Ruger 10/22 and a Remington 870. Tough combo to beat.

Ha ha. wherever the guy is and whatever he is doing now I can assure you that he is got one evil grin on his face reading this.

I asked taurus the same question when I first wanted to get my first non-military firearm. The recomendation I got from him for a first general purpose firearm was the Mossberg 500 deer/waterfoul combo for these reasons:
1.cheap
2.ultra reliable
3. easy operation and maintance
4.great for a variety of tasks from home defence, bird hunting, small game hunting, large game hunting and recreation.
5. large selection of different types of ammo to taylor to individual needs.
6. very easy to customize. and
7.which I didnt know at the time it is a very easy cartridge to reload your own ammo for.(I think he uses a lee load all 2 ? which is a shotshell reloader that retails for about 60 bucks) he loaded me 100 shells in about 1 hour ten minutes once. this is something I want to start as well when he gets home to show me how.
I took the lads advice and got a 500 combo and I love it. it aint fancy, but it damn well works when you need it to. he also talked very highly of the rem 870 as well. I can vouch for this old girl as we are issued these for urban combat. great little shotguns but more on the pricey side.

I have been to the guys house an have seen his collection. all I can say is holy crap. this guy likes guns. To name a few shotguns that I remember he had the rem 870, mossberg 500,535,835, and 935 semi auto, as well as a super black eagle 2 and a couple of double barrels. including a very old 8 ga which only God knows where he got that one from. Despite it all he will always hit the field with the same tried, tested and proven guns. the ruger 10/22, the mossberg 500 and a good old scratched up .30-06. The guy is a bigger gun nut than most guys I have met and he reloads and shoots and hunts constantly so I will take his advice a well as anyone elses. when a guy owns all those shotguns but sticks to one to take to the field it must be for a good reason. unless a rifle is needed for specific reason he will have the 500 stuck to his hand like glue. but. to each their own.

I was on msn with the dude last night and he expects to be home in a couple of months. They only sent him as a replacement until a new guy can be trained up. When he gets back give the guy a call hacksaw. I tell you he will be more than happy to take you out to the range to give some guns a test drive. I will go as well, and make a day of it. We always go to the mundare range. a membership is only 25 bucks a year and gives you acces to a private fish pond as well. a warning though. if you hang with this guy he will turn you into a gun freak in no time. the bas>>>d made me one. welcome to the world of a new addition friend.

Good point. I don't think your wrong. But that's not all there is to it.

Technically, as I understand the term, any firearm that has a rifled barrel is a rifle. Colloquially the term rifle has been applied to any long-arm. If that isn't close enough it might be remembered that most Remington 870 have a removable choke inserts and it is possible to use a rifled choke. Does this make it a rifle, a demi-rifle or just a rough stand-in for a rifle.

Of course a shotgun is not so much historically different than a musket. Many of the early muskets were loaded with multi-part loads. Early rifles were sometimes loaded with double slugs. Does that make them shotguns?

I suspect that while armament experts and historians use tightly defined terms things aren't always quite so simple in actual practice.

I realize recommending a shotgun to a guy requesting feedback on a rifle purchase misses the mark on some counts. But the part about "buying my first" seemed more important. And IMHO a quality 12ga pump shotgun is a very good choice for a first long-arm.

Certainly no firearms battery is complete without at least one shotgun. No other arm is quite as capable, adaptable or all around useful as a shotgun. The shotgun can do it all well. If not perfectly. If I had to select one firearm without knowing anything about what I was going to face I would go with a shotgun, a mix of shells and a couple of choke tubes.

Paul810 makes a good point also. A mix of a good .22LR and shotgun make a capable combination. But if I couldn't afford the money, bulk or complication of having two guns I would go with just the shotgun.

Another consideration is that shotguns don't draw attention. People are more familiar with and comfortable around shotguns. Irony being that in terms of effectivness and deadly effect at moderate ranges, on anything from squirrels to grizzly bears, a 12ga beats most normal long-arms.

Partly my bad.

Chalk it up to being a gun noob and the lack of space to write 'rifle and shotgun' in the title.

Thanks for the offer BMT! I would love to try before I buy. I'll definitely check out that range. I doubt I'll get my PAL much before he returns anyhow.

Everyone needs a good shotgun. Just don't make the mistake (in my opinion) of putting a pistol grip on it (unless you are talking a full stock with pistol grip), with those things you can only point, not aim, and aiming, 'specially with slugs, is IMPORTANT...

I agree with OBG, The worst thing you could do to a shotgun is put a pistol grip(only)on one. The shoulder stock with the pistol grip incorporated into it would not take away from the "multi-purpose" of the shotgun.
As far as Mossbergs go. The reason I prefer the remington over it is because the Mossberg has a alloy reciever housing and some alloy parts in it. Where as the 870 is all steel. However I think I remember hearing that Mossberg was switching to an all steel reciever or just recently did. In which case the 500 series Mossbergs would be just as durable as the 870's.... IMO

Well, I actually just put some money down on a used 870 Wingmaster ($150- wow!). Was kind of feeling like I jumped the gun, even though I waited, b/c it's not capable with it's barrel of getting a choke. But... thanks everyone for making me feel better about this purchase!

I can vouch for the 10/22 as well. Only had mine a year, but I (and more importantly, my gf) love it. Fun, cheap to shoot, tons of after-market goodies, and pretty rugged.

As for my rifles, I have a few WW2-vintage things. Fun to shoot, maybe to hunt with. So... being you're in Canada (IIRC), I'd maybe peruse some of the weapons made by countries similar in latitude. Russian guns, Swedish, etc. Probably not as "sexy" as Winchester, Remington... but probably better suited to your environment.

For example, if I were a hunter, I'd probably take my Russian M44. Short carbine, big round (cheap if surplus), bolt action that holds 5 rounds, and easy to operate with gloves. I'd probably buy a new stock for it though, as the standard issue is pretty much a straight stick.

Best advice though, is shoot before you buy, and research the options for what your intended purpose is. Fun at the range would be the 10/22. Home defense, a shotgun. Long distance hunting(ie, 100+ yards), a large caliber centerfire. Concealed through a rough neighborhood would be a pistol of some variety.

correct me if I was wrong on this but I was led to believe that the Mossberg 500/590 was the ONLY gun to ever pass the U.S Marine torture test trials a bunch of years ago. There is a huge write up on it somewhere on the web. I love the 870 but there is no dought in my mind that the Mossberg is plenty tough just like it is. unless you are using it as a jack handel to jack up your car then there is very little chance of breaking it outside of abusing it.

as for the accuracy of it I know my friend -who I cant help but refer to on any gun topic , by now you all know who I mean-uses a scope on his 500 and by using some top of the line discarding sabot slugs can consistantly place shots in a paper plate from the kneeling position from 175-200 yards with ease. I havent hunted yet but from what I understand most deer are taken well under that range anyway. This is the solution for some of my other friends who hunt as well because in Alberta you are only allowed to use shotguns in certain hunting zones. usually the ones closer to towns etc. in fact some newer discarding shells say on the box that they can actually exceed the performance of some centerfire rifles.

IIRC, the 870 was not tested in those trials. Which makes me wonder what shotguns, other than the Mossberg, they did test?

With that said, mossy's have seen military service for years with good results, so I wouldn't have a problem owning one.

aparently rem declined the offer to participate in the testing. they had the better part of the market anyway so winning the contract would have made little difference to their sales. losing on the other hand would have been devastating. this is what I have gathered from the net anyway.

for hacksaws use, the only notable difference will be in the check book as the rem 870 sells for a few hundred dollars more with in my opinion the same level of performance. both are good guns and from my shooting exp they perform the same.

you can almost buy a ruger 10/22 and a mossberg 500 for the price of the 870 though.

Spend some time with the carry and hunting regulations for your state and city before any purchase, before doing any modification, and at least once a year after that. Best source for updated regs may be online. Don't rely on your buddies' for the straight scoop; it's your neck on the line.

I don't know about scopes, but I can hit a plate sized target with slugs from my rifle sighted 18" barreled 870 at 100 yards with no problem...

"...being you're in Canada (IIRC), I'd maybe peruse some of the weapons made by countries similar in latitude..."

In that case, think SMLE Endfields. Nothing wrong with them at all...

Here's some miscellaneous, disjointed, ramblings ...I'm looking at this strictly from a survival standpoint. This might not be what you had in mind from your original post, but if it's not, it's an alternate view....if this is going to be a SHTF defense gun (this is ETS Forums, right?), then ammo supply will be extremely important. If you might be on the move, you are going to want a calibre that is readily available. AFAIK, Canadian military forces predominantly use the C7 & C8 carbine, both chambered for 5.56x45mm NATO (similar to .223). They are basically AR15/M16 rifles and carbines. If you want to be ETS, rifles in those calibers would be high on my list. You will need to be able to find/buy/barter for readily available ammo. Parts availability is also important. Can you readily get parts?
In my collection, I have an FN PS90 carbine. Great little weapon for what it was designed for (CQB)....rear echelon troops (cooks/medical/support/messengers/etc...) who could not carry around a full sized battle rifle. Superior to a 9mm pistol against adversaries equipped with body armor. Almost no muzzle rise or recoil. Stays where you aim it, on target, even in full auto. Great all around carbine IMHO for plinking and home defense. Only thing is, replacement/repair parts are ONLY available through FN, and that's if you ship the whole carbine back to them. In an ETS scenario, that probably won't be my go to gun. I'd probably take an AR15 or an AK47 variant, with the AK better suited for taking game (there are better calibers for game mind you). I do recognize though that AK ammo and parts would not be readily available in a SHTF scenario.

For example, you might have an old .303 Enfield rifle that you love, but where are you going to get ammo for it? You're not!!!
You might also want to consider any other family members who will possibly be firing the weapons. You could get a 30.06, which is a large caliber round and will take pretty much anything you hit with it that you are likely to see in the Canadian wilderness, but is the wife or kids or someone of small stature going to be able to hit with it? Are they going to be flinching, with closed eyes, every time they pull the trigger?

Also consider weight of the rifle. If this is a SHTF scenario you are gearing up for, and you might need to be mobile, you will probably be carrying a pack of some sort, and it might be a huge pack. Keep in mind how much weight you can physically carry. It not just the rifle's weight, but also the weight of the ammo and any magazines, cleaning kit, optics, etc. An M14/M1A in .308, another great, relatively flat shooting round, weighs 11½ pounds. Compared to rifles in the 6 to 8 pound range, that's a lot of extra weight to lug around on a daily basis.

If you want to put an optic on the rifle, don't at first. Learn to use your iron sights well. With Murphy's Law, your optic might go belly up at the most inopportune time, and if you aren't well versed with shotting with iron sights your SOL. Shot placement is extremely important. even if you are carrying a small caliber, you can make it work better with accurate shot placement.

Try before you buy...Like someone above mentioned, join a club, buy some different calibers of ammo and try some rifles.

Some of my choices (you know what they say about opinions)of ETS arms would be an AR15/C7/C8(any reputable brand), AK47 (Arsenal brand makes some very inexpensive, top quality versions), Ruger 10/22(can carry lots of ammo for small game, and stinging larger bi-pedal varieties), and any major brand of 9mm pistols(easy ammo availability). Identical rifles for the whole family could be good or bad. Good for parts availability, to keep at least one working, but bad if the one caliber is not readily available when you need it. Also consider that a break down rifle is able to be placed in a pack, for concealed carry, when hiking through the woods, hidden from view of those you encounter (with a concealed pistol at ready on the hip).

A lot of good recomendations here, +1 on rem. 870's, mossberg 500"s are also good. Rem 870 is available in left hand model, but at a price penalty.

Also mentioned was the M37 Ithaca, which is quite good, and was quite popular with "leftys", another bottom ejector to consider would be the Browning BPS.

Left hand models have always been limited, but I have hunted and shot with a good number of left handed men& wemon who used right hand guns with no trouble, Bolt action rifles included.

A .22 auto is also very usefull, and near the top of my "must have list". The Ruger 10-22 is one of the best, but you stated that take down capibility was important to you.
The only take down .22 auto that I would put in the same quality/ accuracy/dependability with the 10-22 would be the discontinued Browning. Another popular option would be the lever action Marlin 39-A

I know there are a lot of AR7, and Marlin Papoose fans , I just don't think these quite "stack up", but they are available and economical.

Good luck with your selection.

That's some solid advice Andy...but...

and before I get to the but this is to be an all things rifle or shotgun. Be it hunting, survival, etc...at least until I start buying more of them...Lord help me

If I were to follow the said SHTF scenario as an example. The last thing I would expect to find 'out there' is military ammunition. Assault rifles are rare and illegal here unless you have special licenses or are military yourself. I'd wager there are more hunters carrying rifles than soldiers in this province at any given time. Also, in a SHTF Bug out, I don't want to draw attention to myself...the last thing I need is that kind of attention if I have to take off. This is the reason I'm considering something that can break down or at least have it's barrel easily removed so it can be fit into a pack.

Ammunition is also something that I'm considering carefully. .308 is by far the most popular hunting cartridge here...followed closely by 30-06. There's a shop 6 blocks from here that sells bulk boxes of .308 hardpoint target ammo by the hundreds and it's just sitting on the floor waiting to be purchased. Again if I turn to the SHTF situation (which I assure you is the lowest priority on my list of purchasing factors) I'd want something that is incredibly available. I'd say that the 4 most available here are .22LR, .308, .30-06, and 12ga...more or less in that order. Not to say that there aren't plenty of the other types but those are the most popular from what I can tell. The other consideration is cost. .308 and 30-06 aren't the cheapest around. 12ga shells are quite cheap and .22LR are so inexpensive I'm surprised they don't give them away.

There's also the cost of the firearm itself. I can get a Mossberg with both standard and rifled barrels, and a set of chokes delivered for under $400 and a .22LR for less than that (though not much less new).

Last but not least there's what I'd like to do with it. I definitely want to try big game hunting. I want to do some fly in fishing where you need something powerful for polar bear defense (by law) and I want to do some small game stuff too. Home defense isn't a big deal for me...I likely won't be storing them in the house anyhow.

Right now I've narrowed my options down to 3 choices (in no particular order). I have no doubt that there is a strong chance I'll own all three before too long but I have to start somewhere.

• .22LR/.410 Over/Under like the AR-6, Savage 24, or Remington Baikal SPR94
• .22LR takedown like the Papoose or US Survival Gun
• 12ga shotgun combo with rifled barrel

So far the shotgun is the only single one that can do everything I want...plus has the advantage that I can use it to try skeet shooting...something else I'd like to dabble with.

The real trick now is finding the right one at the right price among those 3 options...there are so many options it's not going to be easy.

If available in your area, check what you can special order or get online from Wal-Mart. You might be suprised.

I know they have Remington, Savage, and Mossberg, at least.

Not sure I have seen it on this thread, so:

Consider sucking up politely to the best shooters you can find. Tell them you are a newbie and want to start off right.

Include in your questions finding out who fits their weapons. Rifle and shotgun fit to your body, posture, lead eye, etc. is important. Also include asking who they would trust to zero in their weapons if they couldn’t do it.

Be prepared to spend money on these two things: fit and zeroing. This may determine who you buy what from also, because you may find it cheapest to combine the purchase, fitting, and zeroing from one source.

Walmart doesn't sell firearms in Canada.

Sighting whatever I buy won't be an issue. I know more than enough people who can help me with that.

Why do you want a 410 shotgun? It’s the most expensive shotgun shell made and it also fires the least amount of lead. Go with a 20 or 12 gauge. A 410 slug is not that good for deer like the 20 & 12.

I wouldn't be using a .410 to hunt deer...nor would I be using the .22LR obviously. .410 is a great caliber for hunting small game. I think that a .22LR/.410 combo is the ideal 'survival' firearm.

So far as I can tell there's no such thing as a once size fits all unless somebody made a .22LR/12ga over/under combo. I have found some rifles and shotguns from H & R which I'd be curious to check out.

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Combos/barrel3.aspx

The Handi Rifle/Pardner 12 Ga. Combo #2 fires 12ga, 30-06, and .22LR with interchangeable barrels.

I have not kept up with the most recent Savage 24 caliber choices, but the one I have is 22LR over a 20 gauge. This seems to me to be about the perfect choice of calibers for a survival gun.



Another thing that would be worth looking into is barrel inserts. A guy named Harry Owens of a company called Sport Specialties made inserts just for the Savage 24. You could buy a 357 Mag, 44 Mag 308, 3006 (lots of choices) inserts you slip into the shotgun breach and then put in the 357 round, this would turn your 20 ga into a 357. It was not uncommon for a person to have numerous inserts for several different calibers.



PS if you do go with a 410 it will also shoot a 45 Colt bullet with no modification at all. But a 410 is not a good choice at all.


Take a look at a Thompson Center Contender Carbine, it’s a single shot hinge rifle that you can interchange a wide choice of barrels.

I was told recently that it's hard to get Savage in Canada these days because they keep having their export license revoked. Plus the Savage catalog I saw only had the .22LR/.410 listed.

I'm reading a REALLY interesting article about 'switch barrel' rifles as I type this:

http://www.nrapublications.org/sh.%20illustrated/multiTaskers.asp

The more I read about these types of rifles, the more I like them. I've been considering a break action since the beginning because of the winter reliability and my lack of servicing experience should something go funky in the field.

I know there are many arguments against break action but for me I think they're a great option since they're inexpensive, simple, rugged, and break down easily...and you seem to be able to get extra barrels for some of them to cover a very wide range of ammo.

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have a hard time finding one that I can see up close.

The H&R, and the NEF combos are both fine rifles. Both are no frills, tough guns that like the expensive Thompson Encores, and Contenders give you a choice of any shot gun and most popular rifle, and pistol calibers. The only problem for me is that most of the barrels come without sights and require a scope, and since they are mounted on the barrels reqire sighting after they are changed out or having a dedicated scope foe each barrel

Since I wouldn't be mounting a scope on the 12ga or .22LR (the 22 comes with peep sights I believe and the 12ga has a bead sight), this wouldn't be an issue. Thanks for the endorsement...I'm definitely going to try and track one down.

I take it by the "Possession and Acquisition Licence" that you're Canadian. Obviously, check what's legal first.

I have a Mossberg 590A1 and think it's perfect (for a social shotgun). One thing I can add is the Mossberg has a sliding tang safety on the top rear of the receiver (IMHO where it should be), unlike the Remington 870, which has a pushbutton at the rear of the trigger guard. The 870 is fine, if you're right handed. As for durability, mine's been through hell and still works flawlessly (at least so far). I bought the 590A1 because it's all metal, unlike the standard 590, which has a plastic trigger guard and other pieces. I'd recommend NOT getting a shotgun with a huge magazine. They just seem to make the gun too long and heavy, and I've heard of problems with magazine springs that long. Mine has an 18.5" barrel, ghost ring sights, a Surefire forearm light and a Sidesaddle (6 spare rounds). I don't believe it will accept the longer 'sporting' barrels, so that's something else to check.

If you can get a combo gun great, but it seems the Canadian laws have you somewhat limited in choices.


Your first gun should be a 22lr, I know you (everybody) want more power then that and will dismiss the idea of buying just a 22. I have seen it happen hundreds of times at the gun shop. People will ask what gun you think they should buy as a first gun. You say a 22 and they will ask about something else and never take the advice of the gun expert.

If ever needed in a survival situation a 22 can kill a deer, you just have to shoot it in the head with solid tip bullets. Illegal, yes, but in a survival situation having food takes priority over a law.


After that get a 12 ga or 20 ga shotgun, the 410 really is useless. I have seen a several rabbits run away from a 410 because it doesn’t throw enough lead to be useful.

410 cost $8.50 a box of 25
12 ga cost $3.25 a box of 25.

Buy 2 guns if you can’t find the right combo, a 22 & 12 ga.

anyone who would attempt to kill a deer, especially at any distance with a .22 is going to wind up with more wounded animals than any meat on the table. I have yet to shoot a deer in the head but I have tried to shoot other things of equal size in the head plenty of times with a rifle better than any .22 and it is harder that it sounds. can it be done?, absolutely. should it be done? probably not. In a true survival situ their are easier and more ethical ways to catch a deer. a good poachers snare works for all the poachers around these parts.
Get a .22 for smaller stuff but for God sake if you are going to shoot at a deer do it a favor and use a more lethal round.

Even in a survival situation I would never take more than I could eat or preserve. It's wasteful and the left overs draw predators.

The bucks up here are quite a bit larger than the ones in the US I'm told...and that's about the smallest 'big game' you can hunt so I'm not sure a .22LR would be good for anything but small game or maybe a baby deer. Then there's Elk, Bears, Moose, etc. A .22LR would just make a Moose angry...if he cared at all.

I'm going to be hunting purely for sport. Any hunting I do in a survival situation would be low caliber, small game (like rabbits or birds), and likely be done with snares, not a gun...and that's only if there are no fish to be found and I'm out there for a LONG time. Food is a low survival priority.

The other thing is that I have no intention of buying anything full size (like a Mossberg 500 for example) and carry it 'just in case' as a survival weapon. If I carry anything for this use, it will break down, be fairly light weight, and be a .22LR like the US Survival Rifle.

I want to be clear that I'm looking for generic advice (and thank all of you who have provided some). If this were survival specific, I wouldn't have put it in the 'Around the campfire' section of the forum. It's possible that whatever I buy might be needed in a survival situation one day...but that's not why I'm buying one and getting into shooting.

"...I'd recommend NOT getting a shotgun with a huge magazine. They just seem to make the gun too long and heavy..."

Good point. I once put an extended mag on my 18" 870, loaded the thing up, shoulder it, hated what I felt, and removed the extension. I then added a side saddle (the six round model), and am very happy with it. I have been thinking about a speedfeed stock, but am in no big hurry to part with more of my hard earned money...

Hey OBG,

I tried a Speedfeed stock on a Rem. 870 and found it hard to get the shells out of it when the gun was at the shoulder. I went with the side-saddle on the reciever, plus an elastic buttstock ammo carrier and like it.

I have one shotgun rigged up with a regular tube/rifle sights and another with an extended tube/tritium post + ghostring/forend light/sling; and it does get heavy very fast.

Mike

I just found the barrel accessory section of the H & R sight and it's almost made my decision for me.

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.aspx

Looks like I could buy a simple Handi-rifle or Pardner shot gun (if I understand how this works correctly) and then send in everything but the barrel and get a number of barrels fitted in a what seems like infinite cartridge options.

If it could do .22LR too, I'd be convinced.

I have had a handi rifle off and on for as long as I can remember, I have bought several barrels but I have never sent it in to the factory to do it, but that is how I read it too. They have the 20' sportster barrel in .22lr and .22wmr.

Thanks for your info. I suspected that getting a round out of a speedfeed while shouldered would be tough, that is why I went with the sidesaddle. Just thinking of the speedfeed for a few extra rounds.

Just for info, a couple of years ago I saw National Park Rangers in Denali, AK, carrying 870's with their only extra ammo in speedfeed stocks. Not the smartest idea, in my opinion...

Hacksaw...I think you have a winning choice in the H&R combo you mentioned. That covers all the bases and I'm sure the pricing will not be very restrictive at all. I would forge ahead with that one. Like raydarkhorse said, no frills but tough...Have fun.

Hi Hacksaw,

I like many on this Forum started hunting with a single shot firearm and I still often hunt with one today. I also trained my son with one a couple of years ago, it is simple in that with the removal or discharge of one shell the firearm and it is unloaded.

I have used the H&R/NEF models and have found them to be dependable firearms. A nice thing about them is the "Transfer Bar System" which helps prevent accidential discharges when cocking or lowering the hammer. I have seen firearms accidentially fired a couple of times when doing this process. H&R/NEF used to have more rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader combination packages available, check out the used rack of local gun shops or go cruise a gun show (always fun, but often expensive activity).

In reading the H&R/NEF FAQ section be sure the first model you buy is a centrefire Rifle as these are the only ones that can be fitted with additional shotgun/rifle barrels at the factory.

About 10 years ago I shipped a Savage Model 24 (30-30/12ga combo) back to the manufacture in the USA for repairs. I did all the paperwork required and Savage was good to deal with. The problem was with Canadian Customs getting the firearm back into the country, I remember it took a couple of months to prove to Customs that this firearm had already been imported to Canada once and had only been sent back for warranty repair. I would check into this process throughly before sending a firearm across the border again, hopefully recent changes have made the process easier.

Single shot actions are solid, dependable and usually quite accurate, but they do not have a rapid second shot available. Some will say that this forces you to "wait and make the first shot count" and I think all ethical hunters agree with this principle. Your first shot at game is usually your best one as often the target is unaware and stationary.

I have had the availablity of a rapid second shot anchor game that was poorly hit with the first bullet. The area I hunt deer in is very brushy and frequently bullets are deflected by thin unseen twigs or perhaps the shooter just made a bad shot; it is not as easy as the outdoor magazines/hunting videos would have you believe.

Last fall my son shot at a deer at about 80 yards with a bolt action .308 Win, the bullet only grazed the front shoulder, but a second shot moments later through the chest harvested the animal quickly. Why he blew the first shot I do not know, but I do not believe we would have recovered that deer without the ability of a fast follow-up shot.

Technology has allowed humans to advance hunting implements from clubs to spears, bows, muzzleloaders, breechloaders, single-shot actions through to semi-automatics. This was done because they are more effective or else these designs would not have succeeded.

Personally when I am on my more serious hunts (big game, turkey, waterfowl) I tend to carry a repeating action firearm (bolt, break or pump) and when I am just woods-bumming around I carry a single shot due to the convenience. That being said last fall I carried a new Papoose semi-auto .22 rimfire a lot, just because it was light, handy and fun to shoot!

So I would agree with your decision to acquire a multi-barrel H&R/NEF single shot firearm because they are great "first guns" and it will be a tough, versatale package. But I do think that for many hunting situations where a quick second shot may "save the day" on a wounded animal (or bag you a second animal/bird), you should consider the repeating actions.

If you can hook-up with some other hunters in your area, ask if you can try their firearms out at the range (especially important for a left-handed person, as most actions are set-up for right-handed shooters), it is very tough deciding on a firearm without some practical, hands-on experience.

My 2 cents,

Mike

Sorry for the long reply, hunting/shooting have been a passion of mine since childhood; which reminds me did I every tell you about the time ....

Don't be sorry...that's some good info!

I looked into the NEF/H&R stuff a bit more last night and this morning and unfortunately they no longer sell barrels unless they're factory fitted...which requires you to send in pretty much everything but your existing barrels. Because of import/export nastiness, they only offer the service to US residents. They also don't sell very many 'packages' having customers rely on the barrel exchange service to get the package they like. That means the only way I'll get a complete set (unless I take a trip to the US) is if I find one used and already packaged. Possible but might take some work.

I've yet to hit all the gun shops so you never know what I might find...consignment is a pretty big chunk of the market. The last one I went to was 'take a number. Now serving #94' and I was immediately turned off...didn't bother waiting. Once I'm through with the shops, the ranges and clubs will be my next destination.

I just found a Remington 870 12 Ga. Speedfeed II Stock Set for $28.50 at Numrich. retail is quite a bit higher. The Speedfeed II does not have the ammo storage, it's just a good solid synthetic stock.

This won't help much if a decision has already been made to go with an NEF/H&R gun.

Hacksaw, what is your take on survival guns now that some time has passed?

I don't think Hacksaw will be replying, his user account is unregistered and by the looks of it, has been this way for a couple of years at least.

I thought he might have morphed into a different user name.

I would say buy an inexpensive non-semi-auto .22LR rifle. Maybe a Henry H001 lever action, Marlin 981T bolt action, a Mossberg 802 Plinkster bolt action, a Savage Mark II-G bolt action. If you absolutely must have a semi-auto, go with something like the Mossbers 702 Plinkster or Marlin 60 or 795. I would hold off on the Ruger 10/22 at first. For shooting out-of-the-box the other guns mentioned are better and cheaper than the 10/22 (the Henry is little more expensive than a 10/22, but a far better shooter). However the 10/22 may be a good gun down the road if your passion becomes creating a "tacti-cool" looking rifle. But you don't know what your passion will be yet.

It seems like you really don't know what you're planning to do with this new rifle (and I wouldn't expect you to at this point). So don't try to get something that you think you'll be able to hunt elk to squirrels to turkeys with. You would end up with a Jack-Of-All-Trades, Master-Of-None contraption.

Start simple. Learn marksmanship. Don't overbuy trying to outguess yourself in what you may want to do down the road. A .22 is your best start IMHO. Every gun owner ends up with a .22 at some point, the majority probably buying this as their first gun.

Although hacksaw may be gone...

Agreed that the best start is a .22, even if you buy it, use it, and sell it. Its very hard to buy the perfect gun for you on the first try. Same is true for fishing gear, pool cues, and knives, etc.

I was in an archery shop the other day, with an old bow, and I asked about arrows. Of course, the guy said, "What do you prefer to use? What will you be shooting?" there are probably 1000 variations of this situation.

After years of getting everyone's opinions, I have become more of a "get one, get some training, build some experience, and THEN ask" kind of guy.

Oh Lordy! I didn't realize that this thread was so old. I saw 2/22 in the date and my mind (erroneously) put that into the year 2010 since that would have only been two weeks ago.

But this thread started back in 2008!!!

Oops, I shouldn't have replied.