Another unprepared (and lucky) snowboarder

Another case of it-won't-happen-to-me-itis.

What is it with some of these guys? Does the thrill of the sport induce brain fog or something?

http://www.ocregister.com/news/snowboarder-clings-to-1968235-thoughts-of

Sue

From reading the article it didn't say that he was doing anything out of the ordinary other than going up to the ski resort with some friends to do some snow boarding. Sounds like he just lost sight of his freinds (who apparently ditched him?), had a bad fall and was unable to call for help. It didn't say that he was out of bounds of the resort or in an area where he shouldn't have been.

Yes he was very lucky to have survived, but did I miss something that indicated he was doing something wrong? Other than not carrying a better noise making device and not having very aware friends? Don't most people that go skiing/snowboarding run a similar risk? You don't have to be on an extreme run to have an accident. Not sure where the "brain fog" remark applies? He came out alive so I call that a success.

Although I take plenty of gear when I'm out hiking I've never taken enough gear with me while skiing at a resort to easily survive the night. I do carry a whistle on me at all times just for this type of situation. Cell coverage just can't be counted on around here once you leave the city limits to call for help. I recently purchased a PLB so I guess maybe I'll start carrying that on the slopes.

I'd be curious to hear what other people carry while skiing/snowboarding to mitigate an accident like this? I just can't imagine skiing with a full survival pack on. Do others worry about this situation while skiing at a resort?

Are you kidding? The dufus left the normal path, didn't bring anything to communicate or signal with, got soaked, continued to wander from where he'd originally wrecked, and was snowboarding in the trees??? He was just asking to become a statistic.

He was damned lucky. He is a fool. Hopefully he learned an important lesson this time, but I doubt it.

I re-read the article and still don't see where it says he "left the normal" trail. It says "he traveled down a heavily wooded area and suddenly hit a rock". It didn't say "snowboarding in the trees". I'm not sure where you ski but most of the "normal" trails where I go are in heavily wooded areas.

I'm not trying to defend the guy but I'm getting tired of everyone reading more into these stories than what's actually there and simply calling these people "idiots" with no discussion of what they could have done better. I find a lot of useful, informative posts on this forum and usually enjoy coming here to read what everyone has to say, but lately it seems most of the remarks about these cases are simply to rip on the victims and point out how stupid they are. There's been very little constructive comments about what they should have done or what people here would have done better. Pointing out how dumb they are really doesn't add much.

Again I ask, what would do you carry on you when you go skiing/snowboarding for this type of situation (assuming this was an innocent accident).

I know it is making some assumptions, but if he were wiithin the normal trail area, wouldn't it have been likely that he encounter another trail, and not have to continue walking through 4 feet of snow and decide after a while of it to ditch his snowboard? Seems like he went "out of bounds" so to speak, although they do not spell it out.

After his fall, he just got lucky. Does not seem like his survival with all his fingers and toes can be attributed to much more. It's good to be lucky.

I would typically carry food, a loud whistle, a cell phone or two way radio, and something to make fire with. It would all fit in one pocket with room to spare.

There are a lot of missing details, but if he hit a rock and encountered no one else till being rescued, I would have to conclude he was well off the normal path, if not completely out of bounds. Most places I've been they do a patrol run down every trail accessed by the lifts at the end of the day at the very least, so if he was out of view/earshot of that then where else could he have been?

Maybe not all ski resorts are run the same, but then I wouldn't use one that wasn't as well run without taking more suitable precautions myself.

I still stand by my initial conclusion.

I'm not a skier or a snowboarder, but I agree with Benjammin.

If he was slogging through snow 4.5 feet deep, there was more than enough snow to build an emergency shelter; and if he was in a heavily wooded area, he should have been able to start a fire.

Ditching his snowboard so he could continue slogging through heavy snow, when he obviously didn't know where he was or where he was going, wasn't too bright; he could have used it to dig out a snow cave instead.

I'm not sure that would work - how would you break it, let alone break it evenly? And how then would you strap it to both feet?

But if the going was too tough on a snowboard, what made him think it would be easier on foot?

Breaking a snowboard in two would be tough. You could break an ankle trying to stomp on it hard enough so that the snowboard breaks. Of course, this would probably be much less of a problem for many posters on this forum, who could go to town with their SAK or multi-tool saw and cut that thing just about in half.

If you could manage that, then you should be able to use at least one of the bindings to hold one of your feet to it. Maybe, you could use both. Not sure, it's been a few years since I used a snowboard.

I doubt most posters on this forum would seek to do this though.

Okay, here we go with another survival situation kicked off by getting lost, wandering around and getting lucky. He didn't really do anything right, he just got by until he was found and rescued.

As for breaking a snowboard. . . probably better to leave it intact to use as a snowboard. IMO, it would make a lousy pair of snowshoes.

"...did I miss something that indicated he was doing something wrong?"

My comments were aimed at a young man who apparently just set off blithely into the wilderness with absolutely no thought that anything bad could happen to him. La-la-la-la-la-la...

They didn't say that he was out of bounds, but that was the impression that I received, when he discovered that there was no one else around, no trails, etc, and he fell 20-30 feet off an embankment. Do they usually have cliffs in snowboarding areas?

He said he wasn't paying attention to his surroundings. He certainly didn't seem to know the country at all, either where he was or where he was going.

What happened to his friends? Did they go for help when they couldn't find him? Did they just take off?

So he decides to follow a ravine, with snow up to 4.5 feet deep? Getting wetter and colder all the while?

He said he felt like he was in a big maze. So stop moving, stupid!

No mention of attempting to make a fire, or even of having firemaking materials/equipment with him.

He didn't seem to have any knowledge of how to make or find a shelter. If he hadn't stumbled across an old plane fuselage, what would he have done? Would he have been dead by the time they found him?

He's going to Mammoth in February. Let's see if he makes the news then.

Cynical Sue

I carry my basic outdoor gear in pockets and a waist-pack, which includes a whistle, compass, small multi-tool, fire-making, torches, cordage, bar of chocolate, barometer (in watch), large plastic bag, wallet, small first-aid kit, smart-phone. There would also be a piste-map, and in recent years a GPS with local maps (if in Europe).

They should have cliffs in snowboarding areas. This could help people from involving into an accident. This is a one of the first thing for preparation.

There's one more argument in favor of a good firesteel over a lighter. Sure, I'd prefer to carry both but if I took a big spill and landed on my gear, the lighter might be smashed but the 'steel won't be.

It's easy to bust on the kid but most people are in "condition white" while at resorts and the like. Hopefully he learned something, and hopefully we learn from his mistakes.

Maybe so. But a fall that would smash a Bic could also jam that steel deep into human flesh. Worth considering.

I'm an avid snowboard. Based on the article, he didn't do anything unusual. Even if he took precautions beforehand, what happened to him could happen to anybody who's out there doing diamond or powder runs. Snowboarding and skiing are not 100% safe, not even close, and therein lies the adrenaline rush. If you don't want to take that risk, then stay on the green runs or stay in the lodge where it's safe.

I will criticize his snowboard buddies. Even if they couldn't get to him themselves, they should have known his general location so that a rescue team could get to him within a half hour or so. Sixteen hours rescue time is ridiculous. I want to know who his companions were, so that I don't make the mistake of making them my buddies.

Yes, take your survival gear with you, but good buddies are the most valuable survival "tools" to have out there...by far, no comparison, been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

Hi, welcome to the forum

Please explain the "cliff" thing in a little more detail for an experienced skier that also is a really lousy (inexperienced) snowboarder. (Did it once for my bachelor party, with a hangover and a superman cape that left red marks all over the slope ... the trouble with snow boarding is that whenever there is a chance of doing it I think to myself: "Maybe next time- NOW I'd much rather want to do telemark". I guess I'll learn snowboarding when my kids starts doing it).

I'll take that chance. The larger the steel the more unlikely that you'd be capable of carrying it perpendicular to your body. When you fall you'll land on the length of it. Maybe you could come up with some weird scenario where the steel would end up the other way but I have a hard time seeing how. Especially if you carried it like it was a pen (eg clipped to a shirt pocket, back pocket like a wallet, etc).

Sometimes a disposable lighter can be broken by just by sitting on it.

I'll add that there are various ways of carrying Firesteel so that stabbing yourself would be practically impossible. An Altoids can would be one method, and you could carry tinder in there as well. Also, the inexpensive (but effective) Coghlan magnesium/flint bars would make stabbing highly unlikely.

If you have to start a fire out there snowboarding, then you probably went through a gnarly crash, off trail, in powder, to get to where you are. My most trusted fire starter is flint (e.g., Firesteel) with magnesium tinder. I believe this method is the most rugged and reliable. My next most trusted is a Peanut Lighter: http://countycomm.com/sslight.htm.

I would not trust a Bic lighter in the situation at issue. Again, the situation here is an unusual, gnarly crash off course.

Thought this topic sounded vaguely familiar...the original post and news article is from 2008 and I recall that this was discussed on a couple of other forums I visit once in awhile...still good topic though.

If you crash hard enough to damage a bic lighter in your pocket, you are probably in no shape to use either a lighter or a firesteel, just saying.

I've crashed hundreds of times on a snowboard. Each time, I got up by myself. Each time, I could have easily damaged a Bic lighter if the lighter were between me and the snow/ice. A Firesteel would have been undamaged through ALL those crashes, just sayin'.

I think folks want to be assured that the lighter they use to fire up their "cigarette" will be just fine. Maybe it will, but for the sake of having accurate info, let's not deny there are fire starting methods that are more reliable than a Bic lighter. Come on.

If a firesteel suits you, that's great. Glad you carry one always. No need to pick a fight over it.

For me, in my 30 years of knocking around the great outdoors, the Bics have always served. These days, there may be a firesteel in my pack as a backup. But they're unhandy for everyday tasks IMHO, while the Bics are right at hand. That's my 0.02 view from the trenches. YMMV.

Well I've crashed enough times on my ski too but still don't see how can you damage a bic (and I do carry one). The only way to render it unusable is to damage the hard plastic shell, and the impact is cushioned by both soft snow/human tissue/clothing, all of which will give way easier than plastic. You may think a bic breaks easy, but apply the same force to your body you will break way earlier than the bic.

Sorry, can't resist:



Which is exactly why you carry TWO lighters...


(... or a backup firesteel... )

Again, the situation here is a gnarly crash, big mountain, off course, cold, wet. The item that stands between life and death is your fire starter.

There is no way I would methodically plan to go big mountain riding with a Bic lighter as my fire starter for survival. Just because you don't want to spend $12 on a lighter that's way more rugged than a Bic Lighter, that doesn't mean that a Bic Lighter is good advice for this situation. Now, if that's the ONLY thing I have because I failed to plan thoroughly, then the Bic Lighter would have to do.

In contrast, a Peanut Lighter ($12), YES, I would plan beforehand to take that with me on a big mountain run.

By the way, anybody who's saying the snow is soft when they land either (A) is not that experienced or (B) is lucky enough to ride in ideal conditions all the time. On average, I have found the snow to be hard-ish about 50% of the time in Tahoe. It only makes sense to prepare for landing on the worst stuff, ice. Whatever is between the bone that hits and the hard snow/ice has a good chance of getting damaged.

Besides, the whole crash happened because he hit a rock! Hey, carry a Bic if you like; that's really a minor tangent barely related to the story. Apparently he carried practically nothing. But with the mindset he had, maybe nothing he could have carried would have helped. Starting a fire takes more than gear, even more than skill- it requires presence of mind. It sounds like when he realized he didn't know where he was he simply panicked and ran like a rabbit. From what I've read that's the most common reaction. That's why the experts say S.T.O.P. (Stop, Think, Observe & Plan).

Have you ever broke one that way? Where would put the lighter that it's directly in contact with bones? Try bash one against the hardest snow you can find, with any part of your body where there's a pocket, thigh, belly, chest, arm, and see if you can break one.

I've smashed lighters, and it takes a hammer or a rock, not something you can do with even your fists. Try it, and see how tough they are.

Hey, I agree that the fire starter is a detour from this thread. More importantly, the snowboarder's mind was probably not prepared beforehand for survival.

=====

Regarding fire starters, I can't let this issue go... I like Bic lighters for everyday use. I have about 15 brand new ones sitting on a shelf. I will throw a small Bic in pocket when I go snowboarding, BUT I will also have a more reliable fire starter in another pocket. I'm not comfortable with being on a survival forum and have people automatically recommend "Bic lighter" for every survival situation.

A Bic lighter is NOT rugged.

I've had Bic lighters malfunction from a number of reasons: just sitting on the shelf too long, leaking because they were in a pocket that got sat on, etc. Perhaps someone is carrying a Bic that will go out, not now, but an hour from now when you're on top of the mountain. Also, a Bic dies when the head unit gets wet. (In fact, I just ran that experiment before this post.) Other lighters also die when wet, but there are other lighters that have mechanisms to protect the head units from moisture.

In the situation at hand, the snowboarder should have been carrying a fire starter device that's over-engineered. A Bic is not over-engineered. There are a few lighters on the market that are over-engineered and way more rugged than a Bic lighter, and they're not that expensive.

Phaedrus - my thoughts exactly:



We don't know, but the wording clearly gives me the impression that he wasn't operating at full mental capacity. That could be due to a hit on the head in his fall, or just the stress.

I think the "play park" illusion of skiing resorts creates a mental barrier. Because you're in a "play park" state of mind it will be really hard to realize that it is no longer Disneyland, but Mother Nature that is running the show.


Laurence Gonzales describes a similar mental barrier in his book "Deep survival". After a long day skiing, Gonzales and his daugther had to catch the lift UP to get away from the impeding snow storm to the hot chocolate and cookies. He found himself going DOWN because civilization is always at the base of high mountains. Right there and then, there was a storm approaching => zero visibility, no gear, above the tree line with no gear in winter => big trouble => GET DOWN FROM THE MOUNTAIN - NOW! They were actually looking UP at the resort with all its comfort and stilll skiing DOWN. Nothing but wilderness in their down direction... it took the wits of his 12 year old daughter to break through the spell of his mental barrier.


And no, except appropriate clothing I don't carry much gear when I'm at ski resorts. Maybe a Doug Ritter PSK, but that's about it. It is much more comfortable to tumble in the snow without lots of stuff in my pockets. (If you're never falling doing telemark you're not trying hard enough). A day pack will only be with me when we plan a lunch stop.

Skiing off piste into the wilderness I'll of course bring a day pack.

While we're throwing out wild scenarios, let me give you another advantage steels have over lighters- they won't go off on their own. Many years ago, probably 20 or so, when I was dating my now-ex-wife, I stayed over at her parents house after dinner. As they were the religious type I slept on the couch. After a while I saw an orange glow. I tried to ignore it but it got brigher, then I could smell smoke. The couch I was sleeping on was on fire! After an agonizing and awkward moment of refection I woke the family and we hurriedly doused the sofa with a fire extinguisher and carried it outside. The cause of the blaze? Either my ex or her little sister, both covert smokers, had dropped a lighter down in the couch cushions. My movement, just tossing and turning, somehow was enough to strike it. You could tell that's precisely where the burn was on the couch.

A fluke? I may be the only guy to ever light one by sitting or laying on one, I dunno. But I've never heard of anyone impaled on their firesteel.

As for the durability of lighters, that seems hit and miss. Since I don't smoke, the only time I ever carry a lighter is when I specifically plan to make fire. So I haven't broken many. But I have had and have seen the button depressed while the lighter was packed, letting most of the gas out. And I've seen them broken just from being sat on. True- I'm not talking shattering the whole body. You don't need to do that to render one inoperable.

As lighters go, I think the peanut ones from CountyComm.com would be more durable. I think I'll order a couple for camping and survival use.

As for the fire starter derailing of this thread: I did post the "carry two" suggestion in a somewhat humorous way, but seriously: Bics break occationally (Most likely, they are empty, or you break the flint). Not very often, but it happens. So if you rely on bics, then carry two. The likelyhood of TWO dedicated emergency-only lighters failing at the same time is low enough to keep me happy. (I also have the one handed spark thingy in Doug Ritters PSK. On backcountry trips I'll usually also a fire steel.)


Although they never break, fire steels aren't magical "let-there-be-fire" talismans either. You need something that will catch fire from that spark, and relying on finding THAT in nature during adverse conditions seems rather naive to me. Enter those petroleum jelly cotton balls or whatever fire starter of your choosing. (You should have those anyway as it makes fire sooo much more easy).


Sometimes, you just really want that naked flame... that's why I love bics. Reliable enough to be trusted (somewhat) when in pairs, better than matches and cheap enough that you can have a bunch of them and rotate half-old lighters from "front end" duty to every day purposes without any financial worries.

Very true. While a good firesteel will make a shower of 5,500 degree sparks, those sparks are relatively small and don't carry a lot of heat. Typically they won't ignite a sheet of notebook paper, unless you tear/feather it up. Although it doesn't sound very macho or Ray Mears-y, I do carry cotton or chemical tinder. I'd rate my ability to make fire with a ferro rod and a cottonball about as good as my ability to do it with just a ligher or match. A flame extender like PJ makes it even easier. Sometimes I also use Weber grill starting cubes. Lighting a fire with a steel and natural tinder is also very doable, even in the wet. But- that's neither easy nor quick. I'd hate to bet my life on getting a fire going after a bad fall in deep snow, with night falling. That applies to a lighter, too.

That's one thing I think you have to be aware of with more primative methods. A bow drill is great in that you can make the entire set in the wilderness, but how good will your luck be if everything is wet? How fast can you carve a bearing block, spindle and hearth board?




Carried in pairs you have some more security. And a Bic is small enought that you might was well carry it. The worse the conditions the more redundancy you should have. They say 2 is 1 and 1 is none. In the mountains in deep snow and biting cold I'd probably tell myself that 3 is 2.