japanese water stones?

I am thinking about investing in japenese water stones. I was wondering what kind you have. I was also wondering if anyone knows what kind Ray Mears uses in this video. Thanks.

-Jace

I have three "King" stones. They're about 25 years old and the markings are long gone, but I believe they're 2000, 8000, and 12000. They're dished, chipped, and in some places cracked, but they've seen their share of woodworking chisels. I don;t use them anymore, in favor of plate glass and wet/dry paper of various grits.

These days, I think diamonds are the way to go. DMT 8" series will be my choice if I ever decide to buy benchstones again. Probably XX Coarse, Coarse, and fine.

If you get waterstones, you should also buy a small Igloo (that's what I've been using all these years) or other "Tupperware-type" container to keep them in. They should remain immersed in water so they're completely saturated and ready to use.

ON EDIT: I saw Izzy's post and they are (or were) very expensive. Japanese stones are very soft and easy to dish, but they're also easy to flatten with another stone or some plate glass and compound or wet/dry. Their cost is another reason I like diamonds. Despite the hype and lauding they'll often receive in write-ups, don;t be fooled. In the end, they're just stones. If you think about it, we often elevate foreign products - food recipes, clothing, cars, and other things - to a mystical level, simply because they're exotic and different from what we're used to. Japanese waterstones are good, they sharpen metal objects, but don;t expect them to be anything more than what they are. Consider that when weighing their value against price.

Fallkniven DC3 is the stone in the video. It is diamond on one side and ceramic on the other.
Japanese water stones are priced very well at http://www.japanwoodworker.com

no, if you go further in, to when he is at basecamp, the bench stones he uses to sharpen his knife, but thank you anyways.

Huh???

He's talking about a stone that Mears uses, different than the one Widget was describing, that you can maybe only see if you watch more of the movie.

"...the bench stones he uses to sharpen his knife..."

confused me (doesn't take much). WHAT benchstone? I am on a slower than dialup aircard, I don't want to try to watch any movie...

I didn;t watch the movie either.....28.8 is all I get. I won;t even open a posted link unless it really piques my interest.

ok, sorry if i confused people, but if you go 3 minutes and 50 seconds in he will be at a camp, those stones.

First, a little background. I have been making knives off and on since the mid '80s. I don't know the exact number I've made, but it's more than 200. I use mostly ATS-34 and 154-CM steel and have it heat treated by Paul Bos. I've tried just about everything to put a good edge on the blades.

I have to agree with Stretch. I have 4 or 5 old Japanese water stones. They are just stones, albeit you can get a very fine grit.

Honestly, for the majority of sharpening they aren't worth the hassle. They are really meant to put a polished edge on fine woodworking tools. On a woodworking chisel, or plane, you want as fine and toothless an edge as possible. It needs to clean cut hardwood even on the crossgrain. For a working knife a little bit of tooth to the edge is really a good thing. For example, a razor blade really doesn't cut rope very well, but a blade with a little tooth (though not quite as "sharp" as the razor) will cut rope much faster. Another thing to consider is that the steel in most knife blades won't really get the benefit of a highly polished edge that Japanese water stones will give. A knife blade is a compromise of a steel and temper for holding a good edge and not breaking during most use. When you try to take it to a very fine, polished edge you'll get a burr that can be very difficult to take off.

I use diamond stones for most sharpening. A DMT fine (sometimes I'll go to the very fine and a light strop, it just depends on the blade) will give you an edge that will easily shave arm hair, last reasonably long, and be easy to maintain.

There is a difference in diamond stones. DMT actually seems to cut the steel and last the longest without breaking down. I recently got a 10" combination DMT stone off an Ebay store for $79 plus shipping. The most basic skill, and also the hardest, for putting a good edge to your blade is holding the right angle when sharpening. Once you get that down, the rest is easy. I've used water stones, diamond, sandpaper, and abrasive cardboard wheel and buff to sharpen, but the key to it all is holding the right angle. The diamond stone just makes it go faster.

+1

I just watched the video. I've always been a fan of Ray Mears, but I've never seen this video before. I haven't been let down, Ray has great technique for sharpening.

One thing about the base camp/water stone sharpening is he is sharpening a Scandinavian type blade. The Scandi grind has a single sharpening bevel on each side, all the way to the edge. Like a wood chisel, just both sides. Scandi's are usually a laminated steel, with the center core being much harder than is typical of most blades. Scandi's are sharpened like a chisel, he is laying the whole bevel on the stone and sharpening. Scandi grinds are much more popular in Europe and not so much here. Probably because you're sharpening the whole bevel, it makes the blade "ugly", you lose the nice polish. The harder center core and working up the slurry like he does also tend to minimize the burr.

well, i have a Scandinavian balde, so will this effect it?

No, I'd still use the diamond. About 800 to set the edge and 1200 to finish. The most important thing is to sharpen the whole bevel. You've got to take off a lot more metal, but getting the right angle is foolproof. Sharpening a secondary bevel will about ruin it.

Something kind of funny, after going through the whole polish and then stropping the blade, Ray used the edge of a car window to give it some "tooth".

Climberslacker, you didn;t confuse me with your link, I just can;t open links very well (especially videos) because I'm on a dinosaur dialup and I'm too much of a cheapskate to upgrade.

If you're really sold on the Japanese waterstones, go for it. Just remember, they depend on water and slurry, as Lukus said, and, while they cut reasonably fast, there are faster and cleaner sharpening systems..... diamonds are at the top of the heap, I think.

If I had to start all over, and were in your shoes, this is what I might try: I'd probably get a couple of Scandi-grind Moras - because I recently found out how good they are for the price! . I'd use them just until they lost their initial fine, crisp edge. Invest in a medium diamond stone and a fine diamond or waterstone. Then I'd make a strop and load it with green compound (chromium oxide). Then I'd practice on those, maybe use a couple of friends different stones, and see what happens.

You could really spend alot of money on waterstones and find they just aren't right for you.....or maybe that they're perfect. Anymore, for me, cleanliness when sharpening means alot, and diamonds are pretty clean.

stretch, thank you, I might just do that!

Lukus hit it on the nose...

One of my other addictions is traditional woodworking... My shop is filled with plate glass plates, diamond stones, jigs, grinding plates, oil stones, flattening plates, etc.

IMHO, for wood working tools, you can not beat waterstones for an ultra sharp edge. Norton makes phenomenal stones that are far more affordable than the natural Japanese or Belgian stones.

However, the beauty of waterstones is that they constantly reveal a fresh cutting surface, which allows for metal removal much more quickly than an oil stone. This same softness causes them to go out of flat much more quickly. As such, waterstones require regular flattening.

In the real world, I do not expect my field knives to carry the same edge as my fine chisels. As a matter of fact, I think it is is foolish and counterproductive. I expect my paring chisels to pare end-grain mahogany like a hot knife through butter. My mortise chisels are sharpened to 35 degrees and meant to be whacked with a hammer. You sharpen the tool to suit the work. I don't expect SAK to carry the same edge as my straight razor.

For field use, I carry a diamond hone, a fallkniven stone (diamond/ceramic) and small leather strop charged with green paste. Works well enough for me.

My $.02

By some strange coincidence I went into a woodworking shop last week when I visited my parents in the UK. There were having a sale on including the "Ray Mears" set of 3 waterstones (600, 1200 & 6000 + nagura stone) and the rubber guide feet thingy. For 45 quid it seemed a bargain.

The thing is I've got Benchmade grips with the thumb studs. I'm unsure of the angle and as such I'm not sure if I should take the studs off or not. Would keeping them on help me get the right angle to sharpen them or is it as I suspect they will only get in the way?

I don't use Japanese Whetstones myself, but thanks for the link to the video. I always enjoy Ray Mears.

Little to add to what Lukus explained so well already. Just one (not so minor) point - natural Japanese stones seem to work perfectly for traditional plain carbon steel blades. But not quite so well for alloyed steels, let alone some hard stainless steels. Synthetic stones, ceramic rods or diamonds tend to be a lot better choice for the latter unless you don't mind having to work several times as long to get a good edge. That's also why Japanese water stones don't last long if you use them for sharpening hard, heavily alloyed steels.

Once again, marketing clouds the waters, or stones. Ray Mears sells a set of stones with his name on it. They won't sharpen knives or impart some superior bushcraft ability on your knife any better than other tried systems.

Now, of greater import and not thought about: Never loan your best knife or let it leave your side. I have a Kauhavalainan puukko.It's my pet knife.
A few years back, I folishly set it down long enough for a idiot with some new wonder sharpening tool to grab it and demonstrate. He was convinced all knives were inherently dull, like somebody with a new religion. He ran his thumb disdainfully on the edge. The slice required; microsurgery, 5 stitches and antibiotics. HE STILL ran my poor knife through this pocket grinder and wrecked an edge time and use had lovingly set, before going to the emergency room.

One thing that is getting missed here I suspect is that Japanese water stones are just another form of stone.

Just because something is a Japanese water stone doesn't mean it is ultra-fine and leaves a mirror finish. That is less a matter of the type of stone, Japanese water stone versus diamond versus Arkansas, than the grade of the stone you buy.

Yes, there are 8000 grit and finer Japanese 'gold' stones that will put a fine mirror finish on steel but they also make 80 grit stones that will quickly take a nick out of an axe and leave more 'tooth' than anyone wants on anything but a bread knife.

The main consistent feature of Japanese water stones is not so much that they are exceedingly fine, as some are, but that they are traditionally quite soft with a relatively weak bond between grit particles. Being soft worn particles break off quickly, form a slurry that does a lot of the work, and constantly adds fresh, sharp particles to the mix. For any given grade Japanese water stones tend to cut faster than other stone types. which translates to less effort and time spent sharpening once you have the technique down. On the down side this means these stones tend to wear unevenly and will need to be touched up with a nagura stone and, in time, made flat again.

The original Japanese water stones were entirely natural products and ones that were consistent in grade throughout, free of larger grit particles trapped inside, being both quite rare and dear. These have been replaced by man-made stones since the early 20th century. While a very few of the natural stones are reputed to have exceptional, possibly even mystical, characteristics and they have over time become revered religious icons, with prices to match, even traditional sword makers have largely shifted to man-made stones because of their superior consistency.

Norton is the main US company that makes water stones. Typically these are a bit less tender than the Japanese versions but they still maintain most of the favorable characteristics of a freely wearing, soft, stone.

I like water stones but it is mostly a matter of aesthetics and liking the steps involved that make it something of a ceremony. Quick and dirty you can get a good edge any number of ways. Diamond stones have come a long way since they first came on the market. An interesting variation that travels well is to buy a heavy sheet of glass, at least 1/4" thick and 6" square, 5/8" thick and 12" by 12" is better still, and to use the commercially available diamond lapping compounds. These compounds come in syringes and are fairly inexpensive given that you don't need much.

Another possibility, one I have used in the field where water stones are too delicate to carry around, is a sheet of heavy steel and a folder with a few sheets of wet/dry silicon carbide or diamond polishing paper in various grits. As I remember it I got along pretty well with just 120, 220, and 320 grits but there are grits as fine as 1200 available.