Mass shooting in Wisconsin

There are reports of another major shooting incident in Crandon, Wisconsin; Apparently the town has been locked down with little information being released since the shootings started earlier this morning. The suspect is believed to be a law enforcement officer. All the victims are believed to be children/teenagers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7032971.stm

Story is on CNN at

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/10/07/wisconsin.shooting/index.html#cnnSTCText

First, you've got a problem with your statement. "[A]nother major shooting incident in Crandon, Wisconsin" makes it sound like this something that has happened before possibly with some frequency. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time Crandon Wisconsin has made international, or even national, news for a while.

It was a domestic issue. More than that, I won't speculate- we don't even know if killed himself or his fellow officers were placed in a situation where they had to fire on him. Not enough data yet. *shrugs* Stuff like this happens every day in every country on the planet. It is sad that happens at all, but the disgrace is that the only reasons this is making news is becuase (a) the freak in question was a cop, and (b) the US is heading into election season.

Otherwise, it would just be another domestic violence incident that escalated and in the process included others, and it would only be local news. I'd say out of respect for the dead, and the officers of Crandon and the surrounding country, it should have stayed that way.

"...the only reason this is making news is becuase the freak in question was a cop and the US is heading into election season..."

I am kind of dense sometimes, but what could this possibly have to do withan election season???

I'll send you a PM.

PM answered, with another question...

Does the edit make it make more sense?

For everyone: While risking putting my head in the politics bear trap, that it was a cop or that it is an election season makes it more likely for what should be a local matter into a national one. That it is both makes it a given that this will grabbed by the national media.

I still contend that a cop going postal and killing six would be national news anytime...

You're probably right, but that doesn't mean it should necessarily be "national" news. Most major news networks have an agenda on the table, in my opinion, and their inattention to what's right and what's wrong shows in the quality of people they hire and in what they choose to feed us as news.

I also agree that going in to an election year has everything to do with the way the news is reported, even when the issue seems to have nothing to do with "politics". I can't see a connection in this case, but crime, weather, adultry, the cost of gasoline (and milk), and a million other things are going to be argued about soon enough.....the media knows it has more power in suggestion and in the way they frame their news stories than any politician will ever have.

Someone gunning down 6 teenagers is going to be national news. Why would it not be? It's a major tragedy. The fact that the shooter was a policeman certainly adds impact to the story. Seeing a media conspiracy in the reporting of the story is a bit of a stretch.

Kevin B.

OKAY. So how can you become a "Police Officer" or "Deputy" at age 20????

In all the states that I have ever heard of you have to be atleast 21 years old to even apply, unless you are a detention deputy at some county sherrifs office. Or a dispatcher.

Looks like a good cop hunted that bad apple down and took care of business.

The shooter was 20 years old and was an LEO? some kind of deputy or auxiliary?

In many states one can become a LEO at 18...

I was going to say that at least it isn't yet another cover or Britney losing her kids, but then again, maybe it would've been better it it had been. News like this we don't need, either.

Then again, most of what they call news isn't worth my interest. I would much rather hear reports that give me real need to know information that actually helps me in some way. How can knowing about what new stupid stunt Britney or MJ or Bush's daughters have done now possibly help me get through my day? How can hearing about this sort of tragedy in Wisconsin be of any use to me here in Florida? It is all sensationalism, labeled as News, provided more as entertainment and to capture ratings. Maybe there are some folks out there who have families in that town that ought to hear one way or the other who all was involved, but I am guessing they are going to hear the news of that firsthand and directly before they hear it broadcast on national news, or at least they should. In any event, the vast majority of us don't really need to hear about it.

Now if a tropical depression is bearing down on the carribean showing signs of tracking this way and growing, that would be something I would want to know about. If Congress is deliberating about whether a new bill will raise the cost of gas by a nickel next month if it passes might be nice to know about and keep track of so I know who to vote against next election. If some maniac is on a killing spree and was last seen heading towards the region where my girls are going to school, I reckon I would like to know that so I can tell them and they can arm themselves accordingly, that I think would be worth broadcasting to the general public.

Telling me Micks is going to get another couple years tacked onto his sentence now just doesn't do anything for me, sorry.

I've got to admit that what passes for news these days is pretty pathetic. And what happens to those Hollywood junkie bimbos is just taking up valuable space that could be used for more important items, like Viagara ads and what GW is doing. (blech)

Sue

I feel bad for his family (in addition to the families of the victims). They're going to carry this guilt for a lifetime.

I can't imagine what the LEO's are going through. To even have to contemplate having to fire on one of your own must be hell much less having to actually do it.

The last I read it was unclear whether he did himself in or if the sniper had to do it.

Unfortunate either way.

I consider this more news worthy compared to what body part Brit or Lindsey got pierced/tattoo'd/shaved, who flunked out of rehab, or any other of irrelevant "digested alpo" that eats up air time on the news lately.

Now all the "digested alpo" that is going to follow this (human interest interviews with the guy's second cousin once removed, etc) I don't consider relevant news by any stretch of the imagination.

As sad and unfortunate as this sort of thing may be I have to agree with "samhain" and say I would rather hear about current events of some weight than the usual celebrity drivel. We are a nation with people dying in a war and spending our children's inheritance to do it. We are facing a series of potentially cataclysmic problems in the near future like transitioning away from cheap energy and facing the simple fact that the planet has hard and fast limits on our growth and lifestyle.

But the main issues in nearly every news outlet for a week was how a couple of vacuous overpaid bimbos were misbehaving. So one flashed her cooter and another did three days in adult day-care. Presumable she was kept diapered. This is par for the course, not news. I'm not saying it can't be reported but there are certainly enough celebrity rags and TV shows for anyone who feels they need to know such things. When I turn on the news I want news not gossip.

The shooting qualifies as news in my book. LEO shoots six in jealous rage qualifies. I wonder about the folks going into law enforcement. Seems to me other western nations screen their police better. Of the ones I have personal contact with many seem to be some combination of insecure punks, drunks, bullies, misogynists and/or borderline personalities. In far higher percentages than the normal populations. Many seem to be looking to compensate for their shortcomings by hiding behind a gun, a badge, a stick and an attitude. Maybe the other nations just cover up their failures better but I really think they are better at screening those they give authority to.

Of course some of the problem is that the US has a culture of quick fixes and easy answers. If you have a problem there is always an easy answer. Often a pill. If a pill won't get it too many turn to the other panacea of the American lifestyle, violence. Usually with a gun. A labor saving modern convenience I suppose.

I'm not pushing for gun control. Just some thought about the culture we have built. One which says if your upset or feeling bad you don't look at your own behavior or ask for help. You go out and hurt someone. Essentially you have a temper tantrum. Make noise and blindly hurt people until you get the love and treatment you you are sure you deserve. A gun is just a really efficient way of making noise and hurting people.

"...Viagara ads..."

Now you're talking!!!

I didn;t see a media conspiracy in the reporting of this story.

Is it just my perception or are more people choosing to kill innocent people whenever a girlfriend dumps them or they feel slighted or under-appreciated? There seems to be more reports of mass murder for trivial reasons. What is going on? So far nobody has implied that this guy was suffering from mental illness or anything except self centered diappointment.

"Is it just my perception or are more people choosing to kill innocent people whenever a girlfriend dumps them or they feel slighted or under-appreciated?"

Across the board people are under increasing stress. The lack of an effective social safety net and ever increasing social and economic pressures are pushing people closer to the edge. People find it harder to step back and see things in perspective.

Not reacting to an insult is seen as fatal to the reputation. A girl drops them and it seems like the end of the world. There is no inner store of realistic and well found self-worth. For them it is all or nothing.

It takes a strong self-image and sense of self-worth to shrug off an insult and walk away. Inner weakness breeds aggression. This is true at the individual level and in terms of societal violence. From massacres in Vietnam to the mass murder at VPI the violence tends to be committed by people who are overstressed using aggression to cover their fear and lack of inner strength.

In reality, police officers in the United States are the most looked into and evaluated persons around. Both physical, mental, background, personality, family, etc are tested, screened, interviewed, evaluated, compaired. ect....

What other occupations are like this? Not many.

It can take a year to get a LE job in most instances due to the screening process.

***Though, the screening process is not perfect*****

I can speculate on how and why anyone would hire a 20 year old to be an officer. Not enough life experience IMO. There may be instances when hiring guys from the active military, who have been around on their own and in rough situations, yet are young, as officers. I just have yet to know many early 20 something's with the maturity and life experience to be placed in such a variety of situations police officers now days are.

IF I am rambling, sorry. Lack of sleep.

I know the cops in Germany are screened well. The ones I ever saw were atleast 6 feet plus tall, lots of muscles too.

Then again there is no such thing as police brutality in Germany. You do as they say or you get a baton across the head.

It happens elsewhere, too. Like in my town (Finland).

A police captain, (not sure if that is correct title, it´s "kommissaario" in finnish) lost it when his wife wanted divorce. One night he went to the police station to get his service weapon. Then climbed via the balcony in to his ex-wifes apartment and shot and killed her. Then shot and wounded ex-wifes new companion (he survived) and finally killed himself.

They left two children. Imagine what they felt loosing both parents like that.

I agree with you on this point. Saying "Another major shooting incident in Crandon, Wisconsin" makes about as much sense as saying "Another major shooting incident in Dunblane, Scotland." Wording it that way is just being provocative in my opinion. No surprise there though.

A side note, the suicide rate for police is going up at an alarming rate ( stat source ). Why? Who knows. I have my own ideas, but might be wrong (I was wrong once, years ago, but that is another story). In this (and related) case, it just might be that a suicidal cop decided to take someone along with him...

Question...what does all this have to do with survival/preparedness?

What we should be discussing:

Could this tragedy have been prevented? What steps could the victims have taken during the incident to get away and/or defend themselves?

"Is it just my perception or are more people choosing to kill innocent people whenever a girlfriend dumps them or they feel slighted or under-appreciated?"

America has become a nation of children. The last couple of generations are truly scary. If they want something, they just take it. If someone insults them, they kill them or destroy their property. They have no sense of responsibility, no morals, no respect for others, little real education ... in other words, a bunch of two-year-olds having temper tantrums.

There was a section in a book I read about the division and lack of real interaction of the family: kids are imprisoned in schools for much of the day (to no real beneficial effect), both parents work, the old people are incarcerated in old-folks' internment camps. When families were together, they had support, they had sounding boards of other opinions to fall back on, life knowledge that could be passed on from the ones who had been through it. When you were going through a scary part of life, there was a hand on your shoulder to guide and assure you, you knew someone was there, that someone cared.

Now, the kids grow up by themselves. The parents are out of touch with what is really going on, with what their kids are really doing. The old folks look at the photos on their table, long for their family and wish for a quick death.

We are ruled by greed and idiocy, and allow it to happen. Divide the family and conquer the country.

Rome fell. America is on the verge. If this isn't survival-oriented, what is?

Sue

The last couple of generations are truly scary.

I'm among those generations, and me and my friends turned out OK. Please try not to be so general in your accusations. There were more murders and violent crime per capita in the 60's/70's (when the baby boomers were coming of age) if I'm not mistaken. I think these things get more attention because of the ease/variety with which the images and stories can be delivered to us...200 channels of TV, the Net, phones, everyone has a video camera, etc.

But back to the real topic of discussion...could a simple locked door helped prevent this tragedy? A concealed weapon? Many of the details are sketchy still, but my guess is that no one saw this coming.

Hi NightHiker,

What an absolute tragedy. So many young lives cut short once again. Emotional imaturity and mental instability coupled with easy access to assault weapons is a heady mixture. It appears there are are no easy answers in preventing this or future incidents.

an hour and 2 x 911 calls with no police showing up.....

although i can't say I'm too surprised, last time I had to call 911, i was first put on hold then transferred 3 times, and finally had to call back (yes, to be transferred many times again) to get a word on the incident resolution.

One thing certainly prevails here, and that is the absolute pointlessness of any gun control argument. Or would we really want to go about disarming our law enforcement groups?

I am also reminded of Brigette Fonda's role in "Point of No Return". She started out just being a wasted murderer, got shot in the leg just to get her attention, then finally found something to live for.

It is a major tragedy for their families, and for their community. For people a thousand miles away, it is at best sick voyeurism.

To much information!!!!!!!!!!!!

*runs screaming*

Any "solutions" that would have any effect on such killings would be too draconian to implement. The cure would end up being worse than the disease. Gun control obviously had no effect on this LEO. Did it leave the victims helpless? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wisconsin has no provision for CCW by private citizens anyway.) I'm curious if his weapon was in fact an "assault" rifle or was it merely a self-loading lookalike? It seems that some people have difficulty with the distinction.

One things for sure. If you ever find yourself in the middle of someone else's domestic disturbance, stay the hell out of it if you possibly can. It appears that calling this scumbag a "pig" is what set him off.

The term 'assault' rifle is really just sematics, your view on what an assault rifle is and my view on what constitutes an 'assualt' rifle might be different. Whether an AR15 with a fully automatic mode or 3 round burst constitutes an 'assault' rifle and a civillian model with 'just' SLR operation doesn't make any difference to me. It just means that someone using SLR mode operation can kill more people than someone with an 'assualt' rifle with a 'fully' automatic mode of operation.

Well, then by that token an even more lethal weapon is my old black powder Hawken replica. It is capable of firing one shot every 2 minutes.

My definition of an American "assault" rifle is a rifle currently issued for general military use by the United States, which at last look did not include the AR-15. Most American gun enthusiasts share my opinion, while most CNN reporters unfortunately share yours.

I feel a headache coming on here...

CentralOklahoma Said - "In reality, police officers in the United States are the most looked into and evaluated persons around."

Yes/No/Maybe.

Depends on where you are and when the LEO was brought on the force. It sounds like major cities and districts are spending considerable amounts of time, money and effort to weed out unstable people before they get in. In part for reasons of liability. One unstable cop can do a lot of physical, mental, financial and reputational damage.

They also tend to spend resources to help keep those in at least fairly sane. Not that many LEOs take advantage of these services for fear of appearing weak or unstable. This might be changing over time but IMO a lot of LEOs are still self medicating with macho bluster and/or a half a bottle of scotch after every shift.

It is a high stress job that wears over time and the results, even short of homicide, are not pretty. The rates of divorce, suicide, domestic violence and alcoholism are telling. This stress also reinforces the 'police culture' where cops hang with cops and marry cops and get farther and farther away from the people they enforce the law on every day. Which increases stress, isolation and detachment.

Smaller and poorer districts just don't have the funds to do much screening and treatment to keep people level can be even harder to find. Some districts pay so little and are under such tight political control they have to relax the standards quite a bit. They can't afford to be too selective.

That said I wonder about the testing that is done. There is testing and testing. Spend enough money, often thousands of dollars and many hours per person, for specialists in mental health and psychology to do detail analysis and you can weed out the almost all the folks likely to fragment and cause casualties.

On the extreme other end get the local school nurse to give a 10 question standardized mental health exam she picked off the internet and it takes ten minutes and cost $5 per person. The question is not only what you can afford. It has to do with the intention of the testing. Is it to really weed out the unstable? Or is it intended to document an effort to weed out the unstable with an eye toward meeting standards to get cheaper insurance and avoiding liability. While crossing fingers and hoping the worse doesn't happen.