Firearm EDC Challenge

Posted by: CBTENGR

Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 08:05 PM

I have seen several other posts that talk about firearms in the EDC arena. I would like to pose several questions for those that do EDC or are considering firearms...

FIRST:

- Are you prepared to use deadly force to stop the life-threatening actions of another person? (statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)

- When was the last time you trained with your firearm? (not just going to the range but combat/real-world scenario training, most shootings occur within the 7m range, shooting ranges aren't setup for those distances)

- How often do you carry your firearm? (if it's not with you it can't help you, a lot of places won't let you carry firearms on their property)

- How do you carry your firearm? (LEO's are taught that the lethal range for a knife attack is 20 ft, anything less and you will be wounded before you can unholster and fire even one shot)

- Where do you keep your firearm when it's not being carried? (leaving it in the car while at work or shopping is an obvious liability unless you purchase a well made car safe)

- Is your family trained in firearm use/safety? (if you have a firearm in the home all adults should be trained in the use of the firearm and all children should be taught firearm safety, at no time should a child or irresponsible adult be left alone with a firearm or with easy access to a firearm, all firearms should be secured when not in use)
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 08:36 PM

All good points...
Posted by: GrantC

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 08:50 PM

Originally Posted By: CBTENGR
(statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)


Show us the source of these "statistics", please.

-=[ Grant ]=-
Posted by: Meline

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 09:39 PM

1. Yes I am. If I barell up on you, I am prepared to engage you.

2. Two weeks ago.

3. Not very often to be honest. However I would disagree with you to a certain extent, in most disasters people usually rally at their homes (or what's left of their homes) so you have a decent chance of getting to your weapon (even if you have to dig a little).

4. Chest slung on tac sling.

5. My weapon is secured at home.

6. Yes and No. My wife is, my children (ages 4 and 1) are not. Sammie my oldest has already been taught guns are VERY dangerous and should not be played with.

Posted by: CBTENGR

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 09:55 PM

#1- I would recommend reading "On Killing" by Col. Dave Grossman. I read this book after being involved in deadly force situations and it gives a great insite to the human experience in those situations. (Plus it helps if the DW is a VA Social Worker)

#2- I hope your training included move and shoot scenarios, those are the best ways to fight in a firearm encounter.

#3- For home defense, bug out purposes the best firearm is a 12 ga shotgun. It can be used for defense and food procurement. The shells are cheap.

#4- Would that type of carry be noticeable to others?

#5- Safes are necessary with children, I like the fingerprint safes the best.

#6- Here again training and firearms safety are very important at an early age...it is good to know you have begun that process....just make sure to continue it.

You seem to have the right mindset. Thanks for answering the post.
Posted by: Meline

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:04 PM

I take it from you screen name you're a combat vet also.

Yes my training is more than just paper targets. I shoot pop-ups, CQB, convoy live fire, and night fire ranges.

I fully agree on teh 12 gauge.

Yes it would be, which is kind of the point.

I store my weapons in a locked weapons case at home.

And thanks.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:14 PM

Originally Posted By: CBTENGR
. . . #3- For home defense, bug out purposes the best firearm is a 12 ga shotgun. It can be used for defense and food procurement. The shells are cheap. . . .
maybe they might be cheap, or they might be pricey due to the situation. One thing they will always be is heavy and bulky.

Making generalities about the "the best firearm" will generally get a lot of different answers. Mine is why are you bugging out and where are you bugging out to? Food can be procured with a .22LR rifle which makes less noise and the ammo is way lighter.

If I'm bugging out on foot, I don't want to be walking with a long arm visible, good way to get preemptively shot.
Posted by: CBTENGR

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:15 PM

I take it from your reply you are another combat brother (CBTENGR stands for combat engineer, although I am out now). The majority of my handgun training came from LE work. I learned a lot in the military and had the opportunity to build on that in the civilian world.

What handgun do you own that you would EDC or BOB? I have several, but I have the BOB set up for a Colt .45 Officer's Model and EDC a Taurus Model 85.

I've always found a hard way to EDC the Colt, but the Taurus is easy. (I have several different holsters and the .357 is great)
Posted by: CBTENGR

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:20 PM

An execellent point...the .22LR is a great round for food procurement, but TERRIBLE for self defense. If given the opportunity I would rather have the shotgun (I live in an urban area and it would be better to have the heavier, bulkier, more versatile firearm at hand) But, you make a great point...it all depends on your individual situation.
Posted by: Meline

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:44 PM

Oh crap I such at this internet forum stuff. My bad, my bad, I misread your thread. I thought we were talking Emergency Distaster Kit, not Every Day Carry.

No I don't carry a weapon everday. The most I carry everday is a pocket knife. I would only carry a weapon in a emergency till I could my family safely to the my unit.

Sorry about the confussion. Of course your posts make a lot more sence.

If I did start to everyday carry I would get a consealed weapons permit and carry my 1911 but I really don't see the need for that at this time.
Posted by: Russ

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 10:48 PM

I keep a Rem 870 for home defense and I have a couple different guns I use for Skeet and Trap. I'll leave it there, sporting purposes, castle doctrine. . . et al.

If I bug out it will be driving and an 870 (or three) will be in back with a mix of 00 buck and birdshot. There will also be a couple rifles (.22LR and .308Win) with plenty of ammo as well as my camping gear and other stuff I don't want to leave behind. Then I'll drive out of the situation, get a hotel room and hit a restaurant for dinner.
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/05/07 11:05 PM

1. Best covered by the way I answered the question the other day: "Want to? NO Will I? Absolutely & worry about my reaction afterward."

2. It's on my list of things that need to be seen to. I'm currently tied up with work & full class load.

3. Anytime I'm not going to school, courthouse, etc.

4. Maxpedition M series pouch that I've had a concealing flap added to.

5. The CCW is in night stand drawer when I'm not carrying it. Everything else is in locked cabinet.

6. Everyone that knows where the key is kept also has had some form of gun safety training (hunters' or ccw or both).
Posted by: mootz

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 12:20 AM

1- Yes, absolutely. In my opinion, if you're not, don't carry. And, I don't recommend drawing or showing the gun unless that was the last straw.

2- I shot a static course about 3 weeks ago and 3 months prior to that, I shot a combat course.

3- Due to the area I moved into and my new intimate knowledge of the city, I now carry about 90% when I'm out. That's up from about 75% before.

4- Depends what I'm carrying: Kahr MK9, IWB kydex holster; Glock 23 or SIG P229, strong side kydex belt.

5- I keep them in a safe, but the one or two that's readily available is unchambered an in a safe place. And yes, I'm aware of the law.

6- My wife has not and is not interested in guns although she grew up around them. She says she relies on me. My opinion, she's a victim waiting to happen, but I always remind her through the stories I tell her.
Posted by: CJK

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 12:28 AM

If anyone want to get the "Official Statistics" go to the DOJ BOJS (Department of Justice...Bureau of Justice Statistics)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

They have the numbers on everything.....and then some.
Posted by: Seeker890

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 02:22 AM

1. Yes. I have thought this through and to stop life-threatening activities in respect to my family, I wouldn't hesitate.

2. I competed in IPSC for a few years, then transitioned to IDPA for a few years. Last competition I attended was probably 6 years ago. Still practice draw and double taps at the range. Last trip to the range was 4 weeks ago with my son.

3. Do not have permit yet. I am not at liberty to discuss whether I carry at this point. smile

4. Holster, strong side.

5. Do not store in car. No permit yet. smile Storage at home is somewhat loose. They were kept up from the kids when they were little.

6. Kids are all older teens. All have experience and understand safety.
Posted by: xavier01

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: GrantC
Originally Posted By: CBTENGR
(statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)


Show us the source of these "statistics", please.

-=[ Grant ]=-


Does this quote seem unreasonable? Never mind the statistics.

I hate reading, but "On Killing" was hard to put down.
Posted by: SpicyMcHaggis

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 06:13 AM

Originally Posted By: CBTENGR
I have seen several other posts that talk about firearms in the EDC arena. I would like to pose several questions for those that do EDC or are considering firearms...

FIRST:

- Are you prepared to use deadly force to stop the life-threatening actions of another person? (statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)


If I didn't prepare myself for using deadly force, I wouldn't be carrying. If I clear leather, you can bet I'm punching holes in the target. Mental preperation for this fact is the most inportant training there is.

Quote:
- When was the last time you trained with your firearm? (not just going to the range but combat/real-world scenario training, most shootings occur within the 7m range, shooting ranges aren't setup for those distances)


I train once a week at an indoor range. Sometimes two or three times. I shoot between 7 yards and 15 yards (the min and max at the range). I also take regular self defense firearms training classes every few months. I am going to start going to IDPA matches for some variety.

Quote:
- How often do you carry your firearm? (if it's not with you it can't help you, a lot of places won't let you carry firearms on their property)


Mine is always on me from when I get dressed in the morning until I go to bed. I live in CA and have a CCW permit.

Quote:
- How do you carry your firearm? (LEO's are taught that the lethal range for a knife attack is 20 ft, anything less and you will be wounded before you can unholster and fire even one shot)


IWB strong side holster. Sometimes leather, sometimes kydex. Extra mag in pocket.

Quote:
- Where do you keep your firearm when it's not being carried? (leaving it in the car while at work or shopping is an obvious liability unless you purchase a well made car safe)


If it's not on me that means I am in bed and it is under my pillow. My firearm is never left in the car and I don't go to places that won't let me carry, which in CA there are very few.

Quote:
- Is your family trained in firearm use/safety? (if you have a firearm in the home all adults should be trained in the use of the firearm and all children should be taught firearm safety, at no time should a child or irresponsible adult be left alone with a firearm or with easy access to a firearm, all firearms should be secured when not in use)


Girlfriend is gun enthusiast and goes to the range with me every couple of weeks. No kids in house.

Good questions. I know people that carry, but probably have never thought of some of these questions before.
Posted by: CJK

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 05:39 PM

Suggested reading......
Massad Ayoob

In the Gravest Extreme

Stressfire

Both books are excellent. The first speaks of the use of deadly force and IMHO should be MANDATORY for anyone before they get the gun. What should you be thinking about before you even buy a gun.....deadly force, legality, type of gun...for example...He makes reference to a homeowner using an SKS to defend his home....(let me say now that I believe that if you are to the point of using lethal force, then it doesn't matter to me what you use to deliver it, but....) he points out that if you are brought up on charges, it doesn't look good IN THE COURT to the JURY that you used "An assualt weapon". And as he said...the lawyer will definitely bring up that point!

The second speaks of what to expect (physiologically) during and after a gunfight. For example...ever notice how after a car crash the drivers begin to just start 'rambling' on about how "this" happened and how "that" happened....it is referred to as diarrhea of the mouth.....and you can expect it after the shooting too.....so learn to keep your mouth SHUT.
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: CBTENGR
- Are you prepared to use deadly force to stop the life-threatening actions of another person?


Yes. "prepared" being the operative word.

- When was the last time you trained with your firearm?

09/28/07 - quarterly qualifications.

- How often do you carry your firearm?

Every day.

- How do you carry your firearm? (LEO's are taught that the lethal range for a knife attack is 20 ft, anything less and you will be wounded before you can unholster and fire even one shot)

Right side hip in a Fobus holster.

It is true about knife attacks and distance. In 1986, I was attending Caliber Press' Officer Survival Training. Out of a crowd of approximately 30, trainer Gary Klugewicz (sp?) picked me to come up front and holster a weapon that fired .38 cal cotton balls (it was wierd, but cool). He was armed with a rubber fixed blade, probably about 10" overall length. He was 15 feet away. He described to me and the class what he was going to do and when he would do it. He told me to prepare, then said draw and fire anytime you like starting "now"... and he rushed me. I got 3 rounds off as I was falling backwards, onto my back, from his onslaught. Where the rounds hit him, he almost assuredly would have been mortally wounded, eventually. I was carved turkey...it was plain for all to see including me. I bet he slashed me 10 times - minimum. He stayed away from my face and neck only because, even though the knife was rubber, it could've hurt me. So.... I say, from personal experience, 20 feet to death is true....as long as the attacker has the desire and huevos to follow through. Same goes for anyone displaying a martial arts stance after the firearm is drawn and a command given.

- Where do you keep your firearm when it's not being carried?

In the velcro compartment of my briefcase, loaded, with 2 extra magazines. Where else? Triple locked away in a safe with a padlock through the trigger guard, with the ammo locked up in another room?????????

- Is your family trained in firearm use/safety?

My wife owns and shoots (adequately) her Ruger SP101. My daughter is learning to shoot my .22 cal pellet gun. Safety is a part of the training, as is shooting to kill, not to "wound" or to "stop".

Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 06:26 PM

Just be thankful that you do not live in the United Kingdom.

Legally: You can use deadly force if you are faced with a situation in which a "reasonable" person would conclude that their life or the life of others is in jeopardy

The practice: You will be charged with murder. You will be put on trial. The jury will be told that there are no circumstances under which killing them could possibly be justified.

Despite the fact that you enjoy the presumption of innocence, you are going to have to prove that you had no other choice. You are dealing with a jury that has no understanding of the situation. How have been repeatedly indoctrinated with the idea that violence IS NEVER EVER justified.

Which is nonsense.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 10:57 PM

Since I seem to have been the most vocal advocate on the forum regarding EDC of firearms, I will offer up my responses:

I have not shot anyone yet. I have not had the opportunity. I've been close to it, and I firmly believe that I would have no problem drawing down and shooting someone threatening me, my family or someone I felt was unjustifiably being threatened.

Up until a couple years ago, I carried a firearm with me every day. I was unable to carry a firearm on the Nuclear reservation, but did keep one with me coming and going. Since returning from Baghdad, I have not been able to carry a firearm with me as often as I would like, but now that I am in Florida that will change for the better. I've regularly packed a pistol with me since I was 21. I have a couple different carry rigs, one is an angle draw underarm shoulder holster, the other is a behind the back under the belt draw. I practice drawing from each position regularly, and feel confident I can deploy from either better than most. I prefer a 45, mine being a Glock 21, but also have packed a compact 40 S&W and my true blue Dan Wesson 357 4" revolver. I've also packed a Ruger Super Redhawk in a shoulder holster concealed, but this was not terribly practical, even given my large size.

While I am at home, if I am sleeping it is sitting on or in my nightstand. While I am at work, it may be in a drawer of my desk, or I may have it on me. I don't leave my guns in my car.

My oldest daughter is a certified hunter safety/education instructor, my younger daughter will be when she is 21 and becomes eligible. My wife is not as into it as the rest of us, but she knows how to take any of my firearms apart, put them back together again, load them, and shoot anyone that threatens her or her babies.

I strongly disagree with part of your last statement. I have never subscribed to the notion that children can't be left alone with or have easy access to a firearm, nor do I believe all firearms should be secured when not in use. These two statements are only true if the owner is not willing to do their part in educating and training their children how to behave in the presence of firearms, or leaves them out in plain sight. As far as irresponsible adults go, I've known plenty who had firearms that had no business with them, and never broke the law and gave no cause for anyone to try and separate them from their firearms. Irresponsibility is not a disqualifying criteria for denying somone the right to own or possess a firearm, unless the are proven legally to have that right denied (as in breaking the law).

I keep my hunting rifles and shotguns locked up because they serve no other real purpose, but self defense firearms are pointless if secured, eg locked up in a safe or with a gun trigger or chamber lock or some other disabling device installed.

As for facing a knife threat while armed with a gun, my advice is "don't bring a knife to a gunfight". Yes, you might be able to wound me if you get the jump on me, but I am pretty sure it won't be the wound of your choice, and once the Glock is out, then it will be my turn. You might get lucky, but is it going to be worth the risk, to take on a guy that is 6'6" and 260 lbs, and is already thinking about being accosted?

We just live in two different worlds I guess. I made some decisions long ago about how I would live my life and run my family, and it has worked out just fine for me and mine. It isn't the sort of life for everyone I am sure, but it suits me and the girls seem to feel the same.
Posted by: desertrat1

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/06/07 11:38 PM

1. Yes

2. About a week and a half ago.

3. Daily

4. Paddle or Shoulder Holster

5. Arizona is an open cary State and i have a CCW so I pretty much carry it everywhere.

6. EDC next to my bed when I'm sleeping, the rest are in a safe.

7. Yes/Yes
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/07/07 12:43 AM

Quote:
I strongly disagree with part of your last statement. I have never subscribed to the notion that children can't be left alone with or have easy access to a firearm, nor do I believe all firearms should be secured when not in use. These two statements are only true if the owner is not willing to do their part in educating and training their children how to behave in the presence of firearms, or leaves them out in plain sight


+1. I was taught from before I can remember not to touch granddad's guns unless I was told I could. I knew where they & the ammunition were kept.
Posted by: djk010468

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 03:39 AM

Guys, I am always interested to read this kind of thread. I agree with most of what has been said, but honestly, many of you are under an incorrect assumption. Or outdated training.

You need to train realistically. And if you do so, you will fast realize that you are not going to stand there and draw and shoot when someone is coming at you. The 21 ft rule is total BS if you know what you are doing and have trained.

It's very simple. Whether the bg comes for a gun fight, a knife fight, or a baseball bat fight, you must move. If you stand still, the best you will get is a draw, which means you both bleed. Move first, and keep moving. Practice drawing on the move. Practice shooting on the move. If he's charging you, the distance isn't going to be that far. You'd be surprised what you can do with a little practice. How do you practice? Get an airsoft replica of your carry gun. Gear up with it, and have someone come at you with protective gear on.

It is best to do this for the first time under competent instruction. I recommend Gabe Suarez. I just attended one of his courses a month ago, with another one last year. Geared up with the airsoft, a fast, skinny guy charged me with a training knife. I beat him at 12 ft. And guys, I'm slow. I had about 6 hits on him, in the face and chest, before he caught me, and I admit I slowed down, because I could see the hits, and I felt sorry for him. Yes, they sting. He had a mask on, but the body shots will leave welts (my turn was next). The draw was from concealed, IWB appendix carry under a shirt.

For the rest, I carry every day, anytime I am out of the house, except for at work, because I need my job. Other than that, I go where I want to go, and I am carrying. If they don't like it, the worst they can do is ask me to leave. And I have never been called on it, because I know how to conceal the weapon. If anyone asks you about it (other than an LEO) simply mutter to them about it being a cell phone, Ipod, or one of the other things people carry on their persons. Then ignore them and leave.

At home, my glock goes on a stand at the foot of my bed, until I go to bed when it moves to the nightstand. I live alone, in a small place, and I can get to that nightstand very quickly from anywhere.
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 10:44 AM

Just a note to the list - this is the first gun discussion that has stayed on the rails for this long. Thank you very much for keeping things civil. Please strive to ensure that the discussion stays in the same tone from here on out - this is about the point where these threads blow up (around message 25 or 30 in a gun thread).



Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 12:08 PM

OK, now that I've set up the idea that this topic is remaining "civil" for a long time, I must take to task one of the statements in the originating post (and also commend the original poster for a well-written and much-needed thread).

Quote:
CBTENGR said:
(statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)


As a long-time poster on boards like this (and this board in particular) I must insist that all claims of fact based on 3rd party evidence must include a citation to the original work to substantiate the assertion. This is the original purpose of the World Wide Web - to create a mesh of cross-citations of works in order to allow those with knowledge and opinion to share, as widely as possible, their body of work.

Further, in the event of a quotation of statistics, the only acceptable studies must have a mathematical vigor applied to them in order to establish the veracity of the interpretation. When a statistic uses a subjective term like "shows weakness" I am wary of drawing any conclusions from that report, as there is little or no means of assigning an objective standard to "shows weakness". Similarly, "more likely" - as in "more likely to be used against you" is a comparative statement that is set off against a subjective statement, and "more likely" does not give me a full picture of the situation.
If we can accept that there is a way to measure "shows weakness" objectively, so that any observer would say that in a given situation, someone is "showing weakness", then we need to assign a value to "more likely" - and the problem is that "more" is a specific term that does not mean "always".

For example, if I buy a cup of coffee on the way to work, I am "more likely" to spill it on my nice clean work shirt before I get to the office. However, that does not mean I WILL spill coffee on my shirt, or that I always spill coffee on my shirt, it just means that once the variable of "coffee" is introduced into my vehicle, there is a possibility that I will spill it on my shirt. No coffee, no spill. However in this argument, the presence of coffee is objective and binary - I have it (and risk spills) or I don't.

In the case of the "use the gun against you" argument, in fact that is true is that if you don't have a gun, it can't be used against you. That is undeniable. The "shows weakness" element is specious and detracts from the central argument of the author, which is that possession of a firearm on your person introduces a certain risk factor, that of your own gun being turned against you, a risk that can be limited to a large extent through preparation in the form of constant training in the use of a firearm in a defensive situation.

However, there is a real, knowable risk in carrying any weapon, and the question is really if your risk profile and likely need for a defensive weapon is high enough that it offsets the risk of your defensive weapon being used against you in a situation you can't control. Basically, the increased risk of carrying a weapon needs to be less than the risk you realistically face in a given situation. Think of it this way - the increased risk of driving a car can be reduced - but not eliminated - by wearing a seatbelt - but there's still a risk of being killed in a car wreck, a risk that is not there if you don't drive at all. The risk of being killed in a car wreck can be totally eliminated! But of course, hardly anyone in the mainstream is proposing a 100% carless society. The risk/reward benefit calculation puts millions and millions of us in a car every day, but also kills 44,000 of us a year in car wrecks. We deem this an acceptable risk/reward ratio.

And there is the crux of the matter - while risk assessment is a well-established science, the reality is that human beings are very poor at assessing real risk . We see significant risks where there are minimal ones (brain-eating amoebas!) , and we ignore real risks when they require to "radical" a change to our behavior (exercise a few days a week, lay off the crap food). Even our assessment of risky places and actions is not accurate.

I know there are plenty of people reading this who would rather eat a live bat whole than to regularly commute to Manhattan (where I work), because they perceive New York as a "High Risk" place (it isn't - Gary, Indiana is a "high risk" place, New York is the 4th Safest City in the USA. .

Let me give you some real risk factors:

Here are the 15 leading causes of death in the USA (2004 Data)

Diseases of heart (heart disease);
Malignant neoplasms (cancer);
Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke);
Chronic lower respiratory diseases;
Accidents (unintentional injuries);
Diabetes mellitus;
Alzheimerís disease;
Influenza and pneumonia;
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidney disease);
Septicemia (Infections, typically bacterial)
Intentional self-harm (suicide);
Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis;
Essential (primary) hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension or high blood pressure);
Parkinsonís disease;
Assault (homicide)

Sounds pretty grim when you look at "Assault" being right in there with High Blood Pressure, right?

Now look at the actual data as a chart: (source)


Yow! The largest risks are ones that I control directly, personally, with diet and exercise! What a drag! I can't blame anyone else for my health issues! Any my Glock won't ward off any of them!

So back to the guns.

So, while I do own firearms, I do train with them - not just holes in paper, but really hard defensive pistol & shotgun training that makes me sweat and work and breathe hard, using a real-world gun in a real-world carry condition (like under a tucked-in shirt). Like one of the other posters, I have experienced the 20 foot rule in training, and it was one of the most shocking training events I ever attended - and it really brought into sharp focus what a real defensive stance is all about, and how hard it is to get off a shot while you're looking for cover or concealment and the target is coming at you, and you don't want to shoot anything behind the target. In Law Enforcement there is a training program about an "active shooter" situation and my brother went through it and all I can say is it's the second most scary thing you can do as a cop (# 1 being a car stop alone at night on an empty highway).

So, if you carry, think about it first. Are you a hazard to yourself and others or are you really improving the odds? Are you ready to solve problems are will you become a problem? It's like all other Equipped stuff - all the gear in the world is useless if you can't use it correctly.

Carry on.

Posted by: CBTENGR

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 01:22 PM

Yes I am sorry my quote on the "statistics" was not up to the standard of Academia or this forum. As I write this I am going through old papers to find the study. But, here's the gist of it....a group of criminologists, one of whom I had as a CJ professor, did a study using FBI Crime Data and victim/offender interviews dealing with home burglary. The study asked participants that were victims of burglaries that were at home during the crime if they had a firearm, if the firearm was used by them or someone else in the home during the burglary, or if it was used against them. They then asked the offenders if they had a firearm during the commission of the crime, if they used it, or if they used a firearm that the victim had with them. The study showed that the number of people that had a firearm was fairly low, the number of people that had a firearm, but didn't use it was higher, but the number of people who had a firearm and used it was even higher. Now here's where it gets tricky. The number of people who had a firearm and that firearm was used against them was directly proportional to the response by offenders in using a firearm that belonged to the victim. This scenario was highest among females who were at home alone. I used the term "weakness" in my original post but should have used apprehension. It is good to note that the number of offenders that brought guns with them was very low. This was in part to the high penalties in most states for using a firearm in the commission of a crime.

I do not want to appear that I am anti-gun/anti-CCW. That would be hypocritical of me as I have both guns and a CCW. The intention was a look at safety/awareness and training. I hope this discussion has been helpful. Thanks.
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 02:47 PM

Thank you for the clarification. As this is a dreaded gun thread, one of our leading thread lockers, I fell a need to "button up" a bit, at least for this discussion.
I don't have time here at work to look for it, however, I seem to recall that the "aggressive stance" vs. the "tentative stance" was a topic of discussion in one of the self-defense classes - I do know that there was considerable discussion about the use of a "tactical" light on the shotgun as well as laser dots and their effectiveness & risks in close quarters. The thing I came away with was that if you pull a gun, it's not a talisman that will make everyone run away. In fact, it may enrage some attackers, and simply be ignored by others. The key word is DEFENSIVE - meaning that you are able to hold your ground safely where you are or retreat to a place where you can hold your ground. In both scenarios there is the possibility that holding your ground means stopping - by killing - your attacker, because they are encroaching on your safe zone.

Anyway....I think that we're in agreement, and that a CCW permit is not going to save you from anything...thanks again.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 04:16 PM

How's that line go, the best defense is a good offense? Well, anyways, my take on that situation goes back to a post I made about a month ago about the difference between the attitude of being a defensively oriented victim vs. a restrained psychopath, or something to that effect. Being prepared for an armed confrontation where you are anticipating an attack as an instigation to a counterattack with an escalation of force used I think changes the equation considerably in favor of the one preparing for the counterattack. Rather than retreat while trying to employ my primary assault weapon, I would tend toward closing the distance and deploying an alternative that is quicker to bear, something I may already have at hand, that will take the would-be assailant by surprise and inhibit his ability to strike. Like I said, this isn't something most folks are going to prepare for, but it makes more sense to me than the alternative. I don't like surrendering control of a situation, and most assailants will figure their victims to respond in one of two ways; cower or flee, both of which can be planned for.

Given the inevitability of contact in an attack initiating within 21 feet, it doesn't make sense to attempt to deploy a secured primary weapon that most people stand almost no chance of bringing to bear in time. Stopping your assailant by disrupting his attack by other means seems to be more prudent, and if fleeing is an option, it is an acceptable tactic, but my point is there are other, more effective and less orthodox alternatives if you are willing to be "creative".

Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 04:36 PM

Thanks for posting the stats Martin. This brings to light my contention in another thread that due to the absence in your stats of people dying from natural or man-made disasters, the need for preparing for those situations is in effect less than the need for self defense due to criminal activity.

Accidents may actually populate some amount of survival situation stat, but it would be implied, and I am thinking that far more survival situations of this nature are the result of mistakes, not accidents, for which I see no statistic in your list. In explaining the difference to my children, I define it this way: Accidents are those situations where you would not reasonably expect to be prepared for, such as driving down the street when the bridge collapses, or the steam pipe underground ruptures, or you cross an unexpected iron ore deposit and your compass goes wonkie. Mistakes are when you use the knife to pry the toast out without unplugging the toaster, or you forego the purchase of studded tires because you want to go to a concert and your budget won't cover both, or you don't double check the powder charge before seating the bullet on a reloaded cartridge.

I think a lot more people die or get injured from mistakes (the Darwin Awards) than from accidents (Murphy's Law).

I believe that if you are serious about your survival, then you will equip and prepare so as to minimize the risks. Since most of your list is physiologically based, I have to think that I am at greatest risk just sitting at this God-forsaken desk 10 hours a day plugging into this infernal electronic device.

One caveat more and I will abandon this dialogue (unless someone really needs more clarification): Having spent most of my life now edc'ing a firearm, I am satisfied with the notion that even if I didn't have one with me anymore I would still be better prepared because of how long I did. It is an interesting irony I suppose that because I was so dedicated to the aspect of self-defense, my situational awareness actually increased despite the apparent mitigation of any likely threat. Having the firearm with me, I was actually more likely not to get myself in a situation where I would need to use it than if I had probably never packed heat at all.

Posted by: Blast

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 05:26 PM

Quote:
my situational awareness actually increased despite the apparent mitigation of any likely threat. Having the firearm with me, I was actually more likely not to get myself in a situation where I would need to use it than if I had probably never packed heat at all.


That makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of that aspect before.

-Blast
Posted by: jhlewis10

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/08/07 07:19 PM

1. Yes if I could not avoid the situation first.

2. Every day, no excuses.

3. G19 in a tuckable holster at 4:30 or P3at in front pocket.

4. Locked box high off the floor.

5. No one but me has access to the weapons. when old enough kids will be trained.
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 02:54 AM

Originally Posted By: djk010468
Guys, I am always interested to read this kind of thread. I agree with most of what has been said, but honestly, many of you are under an incorrect assumption. Or outdated training.

You need to train realistically. And if you do so, you will fast realize that you are not going to stand there and draw and shoot when someone is coming at you. The 21 ft rule is total BS if you know what you are doing and have trained.

.............


I train in combat style pistol matches, IPSC, and stress courses of fire. Moving, cover, reloading under cover and on the move, shooting from both, etc etc is practiced by a good many people...many of whom might be right here in this thread. While your advice is sage, is does not nullify the "21? foot rule". Believe me friend, it aint BS.

Without going too much further, think of this: WHile you are moving to gain advantage from a person who is attacking a gun weilding "victim".....with a KNIFE.... what is he doing? Think now.

It aint BS. I've never been attacked by a person with a real knife, but I did experience the next best thing....a simulation by a relatively physically powerful instructor with a rubber knife. In that situation, I really couldn't move very far because space was limited, but I did learn that I would have been carved turkey no matter what I did.

The lesson Caliber Press was trying to relay during their course (regarding facing a knife-weilding assailant) was: don;t dally with this nutcase. If he doesn;t follow your commands, be prepared to put him down BEFORE he does you.....whether you move or not is irrelevant.
Posted by: Farmer

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 11:37 AM

The fact is that we are more likely to be injured or killed in an automobile accident than in a shooting. Yet almost everyone can get a driver's license, and can use that license anywhere in the country.

I drive more than 50,000 miles per year, and I train in defensive driving. Because of some of the areas in which I drive and because of my view of the state of society I choose to also carry personal self-defense equipment.

I train on the proper use of this equipment just as I train on the proper use of an automobile.

I would suggest that anyone who seriously contemplates carrying a gun for self-defense not only read the texts cited but also view some of the videos available on self-defense weapons. When you see what happens when a knife-weilding assailant runs at you, you will better understand the above advice about moving and shooting.

Running and shooting at targets in an IDPA course is a start, but if you're going to carry you REALLY need to attend combat courses. And you need to do the courses for each type of weapon you own - pistols, rifles and shotguns. You need to know not only how to use the weapon but how to load it. There's a big difference in what a 40grain soft-point and a heavier jacketed round will do in your AR15, and where it will go if you don't hit your target. Home defense can quickly become an accidental shooting of a neighbor when a round goes out through a wall.

The first question is the critical one, and should not be answered emotionally. When you're looking at a real face in the middle of your sight picture in a real situation, you don't have time for second thoughts. And when that bullet leaves the barrel, you can't take it back - you can't change your mind. I've made my decision, and I train frequently to find ways to avoid that level of confrontation. Ducking and running can be an art form. Pulling the trigger has to be a last resort, and you HAVE to have made the decision that you would do this LONG before any situation actually occurs.

I train as often as possible, with formal training classes when I can and at lease once or twice a week on my own. Drawing a pistol and acquiring a sight picture is not an instinctive action. Just as playing a piano takes practice to develop the specific muscle movements required to play a Beethoven Concerto, drawing a pistol needs frequent repetition to get it down right. I've heard that it takes 2500 repetitions of a movement to make it "instinctive" - that is, to make it so that you can do it precisely without thinking about it. So at a minimum, I will spend some time almost every day practicing some aspect, such as draw, sight picture, trigger squeeze, reholster.

If I'm going to carry, I'm going to carry all the time. The only time I don't is when I'm someplace where I'm not legally entitled to do so.

I carry a full-size 1911 right side behind the hip, but canted forward. A bit difficult seated in the car, but much more comfortable for me the rest of the time. And yes, I do practice drawing when seated in the car, when seated in a chair and so on.

Locked up when not in use.

My family is not trained. My wife has gone from absolute terror of firearms to reluctant acceptance of their possible necessity in some situations. Eventually I hope that she will come around and take some formal training. My daughter is not aware that there are firearms around, even though she owns a single-shot .22 that she hasn't seen yet. She will start learning next year.

Thanks for this thread. I wish all discussions of this topic could be this way.
Posted by: norad45

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 01:19 PM

1. Yes.
2. 2 months ago.
3. All the time except in bed or in the shower. Even then it's within reach.
4. Either a Desantis pocket holster in the front pocket of my pants or a Milt Sparks Watch Six IWB at 4 o'clock.
5. It's pretty much always attached to my pants one way or another. But if my pants are off for some reason.... grin
6. If they are not within arms reach then they are locked in a steel gun cabinet. It's not a safe but it is enough to keep kids from getting to them.
Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 01:32 PM

No, the statistic "Accidents" covers all of those.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Incredible stats.



Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 03:18 PM

I was afraid you might say that.

Well, cause is cause, so I suppose it is really all preventable or avoidable given the proper context. As an insurance claims adjuster pal of mine once quoted "in 99.9999% of all traffic accidents everyone involved was at fault somehow". His rationale being that they could've all chose not to drive that particular stretch of road at that particular time.

Being somewhere else at the time; is that part of the axiom "Chance favors the prepared mind"? or maybe a variation thereof...
Posted by: el_diabl0

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 05:44 PM

- YES

- I go to the range once a month. I dont have a place to go for "real life scenarios"

- I try to carry everywhere except work, which is a school.

- Either in an EDC bag, in-pants holster, or front pocket

- Sitting in the night stand. Sometimes locked in the glove compartment.

- Yes, although I do not secure my firearms at home. We have no kids and we both know safety pretty well. What good is an unloaded/locked firearm during a home invasion?
Posted by: raydarkhorse

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/09/07 08:28 PM

- Are you prepared to use deadly force to stop the life-threatening actions of another person?-
The first time I ever picked up a my dad was there and he told me "if you ever pick up that gun against a person you better be prepared to use it". Since the I have carried a weapon 90% of my adult life in the line of duty, but I have always remembered what my dad said. Quick answer is Yes I am willing and able.
- When was the last time you trained with your firearm?-
Saturday and I have another course set up next month
- How often do you carry your firearm?-
every day
- How do you carry your firearm?-
Depends on what I'm doing and what I'm wearing, My personal favorite is in the back of the waist band, I thinks thats cause I'm getting old and fat
- Where do you keep your firearm when it's not being carried?
Next to my bed
- Is your family trained in firearm use/safety?-
When my kids were at home they knew where my guns were and how to use them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/10/07 09:52 PM

I find this thread fascinating. As a Canadian I have a hard time conceptualizing carrying a fire arm on your person on a daily basis. The laws here are such that you need a permit just to look at a hand gun let alone transport or use it (in addition to the ones you need to own it in the first place).

Reading this thread has made me wonder if my views on self defense in general are different too. To me the most extreme situation in self defense would be to use a knife against another person...and even this I don't think I would do unless I were in a 'kill or be killed' situation.

However, as it's mentioned in this post if you don't train to use a weapon, how can it be of use to you in such a situation? I don't train or practice combat with knives and haven't in over 10 years since I was an avid Kung Fu student...it's possible that some instinct might take over given the right stimulus but that's not something I'm willing to risk death over.

Does this make me vulnerable and unable to defend myself should I ever be in a situation where my life is threatened by another person? I've never thought so but reading all of your opinions on the matter sure has made me wonder.

Dave
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/10/07 10:26 PM

Quote:
this I don't think I would do unless I were in a 'kill or be killed'


Justified use of lethal force requires exactly that. To paraphrase the concealed carry course "you or a third party have to be in fear of death or severe bodily harm". There is some leeway depending on the situation (i.e. inside your home, etc).
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/10/07 10:34 PM

Quote:
My daughter is not aware that there are firearms around


I'd have made the exact opposite decision. That way, even if she is not to ever touch them without permission/been told to, there is no curiosity even if she does find them.
Posted by: bruce

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/10/07 11:03 PM

Quote: "We don't know how we will act or react in a deadly situation until we are faced with one".

I had my turn in the barrel...I was faced with a break-in while I was home. Fortunately, I became quickly aware that I was in control, and used that control to defuse the situation and hold the perp. for the police. Yes, the wrong end of a 12ga. looking one in the eye at VERY close range can cause one to strongly question how one came to arrive at that point in their life!!!!

I have been a gunsmith for about 25 years, a line of work which put me around just about any sort of person who owns or wants to own firearms for home and personal defense and have formed an opinion about what types of handguns or longguns which make the best defense weapons. If anyone cares to listen, I will be happy to elaborate.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/10/07 11:37 PM

Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Quote:
this I don't think I would do unless I were in a 'kill or be killed'


Justified use of lethal force requires exactly that. To paraphrase the concealed carry course "you or a third party have to be in fear of death or severe bodily harm". There is some leeway depending on the situation (i.e. inside your home, etc).


I wish Canadian law was phrased the way it is in the US.

Here you're only permitted to use enough force to neutralize the person who is attacking you and any more is excessive. The 'fear of death or bodily harm' has no mention or relevance. I have a favorite example: An old man confuses me for the sailor that slept with his wife in 1954 (I know people who've been shot under similar circumstances) only he's feeble and I easily overpower him but in the process you break his arm (in this case he could have a gun or a knife or nothing...it really doesn't matter)...he could sue you here because you used an excessive amount of force over what was required to stop him.

Obviously perception is going to factor heavily when and if it goes to court but all a good lawyer needs to do is paint the right picture and the attacked becomes the attacker. Often times in situations like the example, both parties are charged but the defender gets the heavier sentence because the attacker is the one who got hurt while the original attacker only gets charged with attempted assault.
Posted by: Farmer

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
I'd have made the exact opposite decision. That way, even if she is not to ever touch them without permission/been told to, there is no curiosity even if she does find them.


I do this in deference to my wife who, as I said, is afraid of firearms. I do not keep firearms "handy" in the house, so there's no risk of my daughter stumbling across one.

If it were only my opinion that counted, I'd have my daughter at the range at least once a month.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 12:50 AM

LMAO!!!!!


Reminds me of a scene in a John Wayne movie "Cahill, US Marshal", where they come across a group of men they suspect of robbing the bank. One of the men tries to get the drop on Cahill with an axe, and just before he takes a swing, Cahill's boy yells out a warning. JW wheels around on the axe wielding dude and pokes a double barreled 12 gauge in his nose. On the screen you see those two barrels fill the bottom half of the view. Then you see the face of the would-be attacker with those barrels staring up at him, and you can't help but crack a smile on your face.
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 04:42 AM

That would probably get you the same result down here unless he was a demonstrable threat (effectively he would have to have a gun or knife). You're right about perception playing a big role. The little old man or a lady home alone will probably have an easier time proving self defense than a younger man in decent shape. The way it was explained, you can be well within your rights but still expect to get sued civilly by the perpetrator or his heirs.
Posted by: UTAlumnus

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 04:42 AM

Check the search function. There was a thread a while back with advice about your situation.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 11:35 AM

If there's any way you can get your wife to try shooting firearms, she will likely allay her fear and realize the potential for good that having such an ability and availability might allow.

I've worked with a number of very intimidated people, gradually introducing them to the shooting sports by starting small and taking small steps in well controlled environments under full supervision and with constant encouragement. In most cases, after they shot their first magazine full of 22s through a pistol, their confidence exceeds their apprehension, and they are at least converted, if not hooked, that shooting can be a safe and enjoyable endeavor. It takes time, patience, and a decent arsenal, but once they take that first step, the success rate is pretty high for repeat business. The most important thing is to have an instructor that is proficient with firearms, but also knows how to work with people who have an aversion.

It's no different than with folks who don't know how to drive. They can be intimidated by that much power under their control, until they get trained and become familiar with how it feels and what to expect.
Posted by: djk010468

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 10:39 PM

I think you have misunderstood my point. And I don't appreciate your "think now." I know exactly what he is doing, because I have trained it from both sides.

My point is don't just stand there and think you are going to draw and shoot. Begin moving. AS you take your second step you should be acquiring your grip on your weapon. By the third or fourth, you should be shooting. But, you are also maintaining some distance. Don't backpedal, take off at 90 degrees from his line of attack, and as he adjusts, so do you. Run one foot in front of the other, like humans are designed to move.

Whether you move or not is absolutely NOT irrelevant. If you stand there, you will get cut. IF you move, you have more of a chance of getting good shots on him before he can close the distance.

And what commands? If he has a weapon and charges me, I am not going to waste time with commands.

I can prove that the 21 ft rule is BS, IF you know what you are doing, as I have said. I have an airsoft, and a training knife. I'll give you 21 feet, and bet you I get 5 or 6 shots on you before you get to me. I did it, repeatedly, just last month. And I'm not going to stop moving, so those shots are going to start taking a toll.

The 21 ft rule was born on a square range with someone whose feet were glued to the ground. And please, don't start with matches and IPSC. They may mean you are a decent shot, and I dont dispute that, but they mean nothing in a real world encounter.
Posted by: philip

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/11/07 10:56 PM

Quote:
(statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)

First, the urban legend: New grads of the FBI academy are told the armorer will be at the graduation ceremony to file off the front sights of their handguns. A few new grads look at each other; finally someone asks why? Because if you're not going to use your gun, someone will take it away and shove it up your ass. And it's a lot better with the front sight filed off.

Second, the other side of that coin is presenting a firearm when there's no life-threatening situation. I've seen more COPS episodes where the cop draws a gun on some guy standing in the street, only to have the guy turn around and walk slowly away while the cop yells HALT! and holds the gun on the guy's back. He can't shoot, and he's pulled his gun. What's he going to do now?

My lesson is that drawing a gun is a mistake if you aren't being threatened and have a reason to use it upon drawing it. Am I wrong?
Posted by: gatormba

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/12/07 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: philip
Quote:
(statistics show that if you present a firearm and show weakness in using it, even in a life-threatening situation, it is more likely to be used against you)

First, the urban legend: New grads of the FBI academy are told the armorer will be at the graduation ceremony to file off the front sights of their handguns. A few new grads look at each other; finally someone asks why? Because if you're not going to use your gun, someone will take it away and shove it up your ass. And it's a lot better with the front sight filed off.

Second, the other side of that coin is presenting a firearm when there's no life-threatening situation. I've seen more COPS episodes where the cop draws a gun on some guy standing in the street, only to have the guy turn around and walk slowly away while the cop yells HALT! and holds the gun on the guy's back. He can't shoot, and he's pulled his gun. What's he going to do now?

My lesson is that drawing a gun is a mistake if you aren't being threatened and have a reason to use it upon drawing it. Am I wrong?


No you are not wrong, you are exactly right. LEOs can get away with drawing their gun even if it may be premature but a private citizen who draws and displays a gun without proper justification is either going to get arrested by the cops or shot by the cops.
Posted by: Stretch

Re: Firearm EDC Challenge - 10/12/07 02:13 AM

No, I didn;t really mean that it is irrelevant to move, rather, that your moving or not is irrelevant to the fact that you will get cut. What I was trying to get across is the same thing the school I attended was trying to teach.... a man with a knife that assaults a man with a gun is going to do some damage....if he's within a reasonable distance (that distance having been determined by the experts to be roughly 20'). That doesn;t mean I advocate standing still, I don;t, it just means that man is, much more likely than not, going to cut you......many times. If you re-read my first post, you'll see we agree that you're going to some damage to him also.

When I was talking about commands, you have to see it from a law enforcement perspective. If a man has a knife, is not charging you, you'll pay dearly if you fire on him without any more provocation than...."He had a knife". Hence the command(s). Now, if he's charging you, whether you've drawn or not is irrelevant (I like that word smile ), you're justified in any deadly force action you take.

Now, not to provoke you...that's not my intent, but I'll say again....... train all you want (as you should), the "15, 20, or 21 foot rule" isn't BS. If you don;t appreciate the "think now" comment, then at least appreciate that an attacker is moving at you....after you...where you move so will he. I'm speaking from at least some experience, however little. Additionally, I'll celebrate 23 years in federal law enforcement this Sunday. During that time, I've seen plenty of evidence of the danger of irrational persons...especially when they're armed, and even more especially when they're armed with something as lethal and controllable as a knife.

I'm not saying we can't win against the knife attack. I'm not saying we can;t walk away unscathed from a knife attack. I'm not saying training won;t help you. I'm saying simply: a man with a knife, with the desire and huevos to attack another man armed with a firearm, is a true threat at 20 feet or less (or maybe more)... a threat any reasonably well-trained person will recognize.

It ain't BS.