How do you Repel Using Paracord?

Posted by: Enter_Narne

How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 04:27 PM

Is there a safe way to repel down a building or sheer drop using 550 paracord? I'm thinking it can be done if you use several lengths of paracord to multiply its thickness. I know it is not recommended and I know it's not what it is designed for, but I know it can do it because I keep reading about emergency instructors showing how to do it and I keep reading about people's personal experiences doing it. I'm trying to find out how they do it and I want to see for myself if it is safe. Maybe we can find a way to make it safer. The thing is, with all the stuff I'm reading I don't see any instructions or any pictures/videos.

Can you post a link to instructions on how it is done?

I'm trying to find a way to repel using only the items in my Go Bag.

The things in my kit that I think may help are:
Work Gloves
Backpack (maybe the straps can be used somehow)
Tarp (maybe can be fashioned into a seat)
Hooded Poncho (again maybe a seat)
Re-usable Tie-Wraps
Hammock

I'd be willing to carry a climbing carabiner.
Posted by: billym

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 05:03 PM

Do you know how to rappel on a regular rope diameter? If not then no chance in hell. If you are already an expert in descending a rope probably not. The most experienced climbers in the world use 5MM diameter minimum and that is scetchy.
Where are they teaching this?
If rappeling is at all new to you then forget this nonsense. I have been climbing for more than ten years and I would not want to try it.
Got some links to others using this system?
Posted by: teacher

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 05:30 PM

Its not safe. Wrong tool for the job. Bad idea.
Posted by: Alex

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 05:41 PM

I'm second interested in such a knowledge. Nobody going to climb with paracord on a regular basis. But it's not impossible to descend with it, right? What would you prefer in 9-11 situation? To jump out of the window or try to carefully descend with paracord from your EDC kit even if that's not safe?

So, why don't you give us a lesson on rappelling as an expert? Or may be you know some good links on the subject? Google returns too many commercials to dig through.

What I know so far, is that for an emergency rappelling I need some sort of harness (probably ballistic nylon straps around hips and waist - the lightest variant). Rope, and a rappelling device like the figure 8 thing. Not sure about tubular devices, because they are designed for a standard rope diameters (probably the same applies to figure 8 too). And a carabiner to hook the harness to the device.

Something like this:
http://www.sealsactiongear.com/catalog/store/new_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=12
Posted by: rescueguru

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 05:42 PM

Several things come to mind as I read the post:
1. If you haven't had professional training in rappel techniques, get some or don't do it. It's more difficult and dangerous than it looks.
2. ONLY use the correct equipment. Most items needed for an emergency egress are small, light weight, and easily carried. Some vendors market this equipment as "Firefighter Bail Out Bags".
3. Equipment should include (at a minimum) 50'- 100' of 8mm low stretch kernmantle (4-4.5K tensile), (2) 1" tubular webbing (one for the anchor and one for the harness), and (4) locking aluminum carabiners.
4. A pair of gloves with leather palms (minimum).
LEARN TO USE THE EQUIPMENT CORRECTLY AND SAFELY. This is a small investiment that potentially has a large return. YOUR LIFE!!
To do less than what is suggested above is inviting grave personal injury or worse, IMHO. YMMV!!
Posted by: Enter_Narne

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 06:14 PM

I have decided my kit will not support rappelling thank you for your advice everyone.

It is no longer necessary to reply to this thread.
Posted by: billym

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 10:41 PM

Well in your link they show paracord with the "high angle" gear so maybe the military is teaching this. confused
Of the gear on the site I would choose the rappel harness,the regular figure 8, 6 ovals (I don't like the lockers they have)and the 200' rope. Now you are getting out a window up 100 feet given you can build an anchor. If it was one's appartment I would install masonry type bolts with climbing hangers and add two more biners to the mix. The excess oval biners could allow me flexibilty in my set up including a carabiner rappel set up.


The biggest problem is holding the cord itself.
I have only rapped off 8MM or thicker. When using the 8MM as compared to let's say the standard 10MM I can feel a big difference in my ability to grip the cord.
There are ways one could make up a system with reduncancy but I would rather downclimb a building than try to rap on "sewing thread".

If you wanted to learn how to rappel I would suggest a local climbing gym, a certified guide while visiting the mountains or at least read Freedom of the Hills. I know of no great links for climbing instruction and the one forum I go too is not too Noob friendly for some reason.

Hey if my tone was a little obnoxious before I apologize it is just the rapping off paracord seems like something only John Rambo would do; or maybe his Cliffhanger guide cousin. smirk

It would be difficult and very dangerous to try. Just the cutting factor of the cord is an issue. Climbing ropes running along an edge of the rock have been know to cut like a knife went through it. How would parachord do running along the edge of your window or balcony?
Bill
Posted by: aardvark

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 10:47 PM

FYI, there is an entry in the 2006 Accidents in North American Mountaineering where a guy fell 30' while abseiling down a cliff and broke his back, legs etc. Evidently he had no training, was taking long bounds and was using narrow diameter military kevlar cord that frayed/melted over a rock edge at the top of the cliff.
Posted by: billym

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/04/07 11:14 PM

Originally Posted By: aardvark
FYI, there is an entry in the 2006 Accidents in North American Mountaineering where a guy fell 30' while abseiling down a cliff and broke his back, legs etc. Evidently he had no training, was taking long bounds and was using narrow diameter military kevlar cord that frayed/melted over a rock edge at the top of the cliff.

Bingo
Posted by: Enter_Narne

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 12:13 AM

Okay. I get the point.
Posted by: billym

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 12:56 AM

Hi Enter_Narne
Sometimes here a discussion will go "beyond" what the poster imagined and may even get heated. But here at ETS there are a lot of opinions and a ton of knowledge. So even though you got your answer others may want to chime in or disagree.
That is the great thing; everyone here is generally civil but passionate too.
Welcome to ETS and thanks for the post.
Bill
Posted by: ironraven

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 01:20 AM

Safe way- don't do it.

Use a proper rope, otherwise, you are playing Russian Roulette. 550 line (paracord) isn't very strong, it can loose half or more of it capacity due to knots. And gravity is always loaded.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 01:32 AM

Originally Posted By: billym
Well in your link they show paracord with the "high angle" gear so maybe the military is teaching this.


The website in question is out of Canada and can not prove that they have any connection to any part of the US, Canadian or overall NATO operations community, or any military in general. They sell mostly to airsofters and mall ninjas, I'd take their choice to put 550 line with climbing gear with a grain of salt. Their gear isn't all bad, but what they have that is worthwhile is all big name items.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 02:15 AM

I've gotta admit, if my choices were burning, jumping, or rapelling with paracord, down the cord I would go, hoping for the best. But I sure wouldn't carry it around as my primary escape equipment...
Posted by: frostbite

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 02:27 AM

Any thoughts on the movie scenario of using the fire hose in the big spool on the wall? Is it pure useless fiction or would it work in a real emergency?
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/05/07 01:03 PM

I suspect that tieing the hose around your waist and jumping, ala Bruce Willis, would be less than a good idea. Going down hand over hand would require one heck of a lot of grip strength. So, like the paracord thing, I would try it only as a last resort...
Posted by: drahthaar

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/07/07 05:46 PM

It seems to me that folks beat up on the original poster a bit too much.

Should anyone repel using Paracord as a hobby or a stunt? Of course not.

But if you find yourself in a situation where you need to get out of a building or down a cliff and all you have is paracord - and your life depends on it - what do you do? Just sit there and reflect on the fact that you should have brought a climbing harness, a descender and 100 meters of line with you? Jump?

I don't have any climbing expertise and I don't know whether it would even be possible to repel with paracord with other proper equipment and with training - but I don't think the OP was being unreasonable by asking about this topic.



Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/07/07 06:35 PM

550 cord has a breaking strain of 550lb. Proper dynamic climbing rope has a breaking strain of about 2 metric tonnes. They both have about the same elogation. They are both constructed the same way. You could, in a survival situation, use the paracord risers and harness from a parachute to make short descents. Your biggest problem is anchoring the belay.

Other members have pointed out the extreme danger involved. As an experienced climber and as a member of The British Mountain Council I have to say that they are, if anything, understating the risk.

If your faced with a 9/11 Twin Towers then the risk of death is better than the certainty of an agonising death. Otherwise it is simply a clever way to collect a Darwin Award.
Posted by: Alex

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/07/07 08:35 PM

A friend of mine has died because of such a supperovercautious attitude of professionals (or may be they just want money for sharing their hard earned knowledge?):

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=516496

A 100ft of paracord and some knowledge of descending with rope basics would save his life. I doubt one would have a real climbing gear on a simple walk in the park with him. The gear with 1000% of insurance built-in is too heavy...
Posted by: ducktapeguy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/07/07 08:44 PM

Of course everybody is going to say you shouldn't do it. Yes it's very dangerous, no you shouldn't be doing it regularly, but I will admit I have thought about this also, and I bet a lot of you have also thought about it too. And I think it's very possible to do this. Not rapelling off paracord specifically, but the smallest setup you could rappel off of for a one time emergency use. Fortunately, someone else also thought about it came out with this

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=7342&tabID=1287

I don't know the specifics, but during some free time I have looked into setting up something like this just for fun. I know there is a new 5mm cord on the market that is rated at 5000 lbs, so the strength factor is high enough to say that it is definitely possible. I did see another one with a descender specific for that type of cord, it was more of a rectangular shaped piece with holes, and had extra bends for increased friction. Even so, I'd wear gloves, because small cord can cause burns very quickly.

Posted by: Alex

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/07/07 09:08 PM

Thank you for the link, ducktapeguy!

Well, IMO, instead of making threatening gestures, the professionals could make a comprehensive analysis of the potential threats of using paracord, and of the ways to minimize them with skills and knowledge. Like regarding the anchoring, for example, one could rig the rope this way: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch7.htm#fig7-13
in order to minimize the chance of rope breaking at this point due to the friction in the knot, which could simply melt the thin paracord. Which descending technique is the most paracord friendly? And so on...
Posted by: Raspy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 03:38 AM

Like the others I'm not advocating repelling with out proper training. Using paracord as anything but a last resort is rather foolish. But if the choices are roasting like a marshmallow or trying to learn how to fly or levitate while falling. I would risk repelling with 550. Hey, If it breaks you are no worse off than if you had jumped. Maybe better because the fall started at a lower height.

So if you absolutely have no other choice here would be how you would try it.

First double the cord if at all possible. 1100 lb. break strength is better than 550.

Learn knots so that you can tie one that puts the least strain on the rope. You will have to tie at least one to anchor the rope. Along with that you have to figure out an anchoring system ahead of time.

Where the rope goes out the window and over the ledge pad it with something to reduce the risk of the rope being cut. A doubled up jacket or some other clothing can work in an emergency.

A harness is nice. But if you have gone that far you should go the extra distance and have the proper rope and an edge guard. But you can repel with just the rope. There are techniques that you wrap the rope around the body and use the friction as a break. Again these methods can be learned when getting proper instruction.

OK, you have started your decent. Don't use those bounding drops you see the swat guys in the movies use. The stops and the extra shock adds a tremendous amount of strain on the rope. It is called G-Force loading. You are pushing the limits already. Any increase could mean a long drop. What you have do do is slowly methodically walk down the side of the building. Your feet against the building will support some of your weight putting less strain on the rope. Going carefully will lessen the chances of shock loading the rope.

Again I don't recommend this method. But by using these tricks. It should improve your chances. Maybe just enough that it might work.
Posted by: Alex

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 05:10 AM

Wow! Thanks!

What about the specialized simple descending devices? Like the compact figure 8 versions or something like this: http://www.rescuetech1.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=524

I understand that they'll require a harness and probably a carabiner. But one could improvise a harness this way: http://www.animatedknots.com/harness/ind...imatedknots.com

(thanks big_al! Found it in this thread http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101877#Post101877)

It seems to me that a harness would provide a much better body weight balance and control compared to body wrapping methods (the rope is closer to the center of mass), and the descending device, on the other hand, is much easier to operate without much of practice. Is that correct? Is there any special concerns in using such a device with the thin and/or doubled paracord? In other words, are they designed to work well with the thicker ropes only?
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 02:38 PM

"...82' of 5mm tech cord..."

Eighy two feet. An interesting length, I wonder why they chose that???
Posted by: frenchy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 02:41 PM

82' = 25 meters ???? maybe some kind of standard length ...
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 02:42 PM

Long ago I was taught, via the Yosemite Mountaineering School, to tie my anchor rope to a tree (or whatever), using a bowline on a coil knot. Seems like that should work with paracord also...
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 02:47 PM

Sorry about your friend. This story kind of points out the old saying, you can't help if you can't get there...
Posted by: weldon

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 08:24 PM

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to say NEVER rappel on paracord if there is any chance you will live otherwise. If you want small cord to try something like that buy some of the cord that is designed for it. DON'T USE PARACORD. Sure it has 550lb test strength, but think about how many cords go from your harness to your parachute when skydiving.... uhuh, it's not 2. The problem is that even entertaining this idea can lead to someone trying it and you don't have to fall far to break your back or anything else. Yes, they make devices for doing this, but NONE of them are designed for using with paracord. Sorry for how this is coming out but I can't stress strongly enough not to do this.

There are several kinds of stress put on a rope, you have static load (what paracord is rated for) and you have dynamic loads (you moving around while rappeling) and you have friction (rope going over edge, through decender) and you have the cumulative stress of the dynamic and static loads, every jostle and weight placed on it stresses the rope and those stresses are cumulative. Paracord can not handle these stresses.
Posted by: drahthaar

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 08:42 PM

Weldon - I think people get that you should not rappel using paracord except as your final option - especially since 8 or 10 posters said as much above.

I can see the basis for your concern, but I don't think discussion of this is will encourage people to try rappelling with paracord for kicks. No more than discussing what ammunition to use against Bears will encourage people to try and go share some meals with grizzlies or discussing improvised shelters and water collection methods will encourage people to hike off into the desert without water or shelter.
Posted by: Lasd02

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/08/07 09:11 PM


We are really making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be. Here are the facts:

Paracord has a breaking strength of 550lbs., let's say the average weight of any of us ETS readers is 200lbs...paracord is more than twice as strong as we need! Simply split the cord down the middle and 50' of cord becomes 100', I know, it's a brilliant idea and you are all asking yourselves, "why didn't I think of this?"

The weakest part of any rope is at the knot. The solution to this problem is again, shockingly simple; don't use any knots! Pull out the mini-bic lighter we all carry, melt the end of your paracord and stick it to any solid surface. The melted cord will weld onto the surface and provide a bulletproof anchor to rappel from.

How many of us carry harnesses? Probably none, and for good reason, they are totally unnecessary! A nice slipknot tied around the waist is sufficient in an emergency rappel situation. If you have the few extra seconds and are the, "better safe than sorry" type, go ahead and add a second slipknot around your neck to help distribute the weight more evenly.

So there you have it! The safe, time tested, USDMCA (U.S. Darwinian Mountain Climbing Assoc.) approved paracord rappelling technique. Climb on!

Posted by: bat69

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 12:44 AM

I'm sure that it can be done.

How safely and efficiently is a completely other matter..

I imagine that braiding it would be the method of choice. Thats what I'd do if faced with no other choice to stay alive.

However, chafing, stretchyness, and a plethera of other issues would be an issue. ( the length of drop, etc, etc..)

I would be interested to see what tests done by a technical expert would reveal.

Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 02:53 AM

"...The melted cord will weld onto the surface..."

It has welded to my fingers from time to time, when I am trying to pretty up the melted end of a piece of cord...
Posted by: Alex

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 04:14 AM

Just spit on your fingers first, and then you can weld it to anything.
Posted by: ducktapeguy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 08:41 AM

Of course everybody is going to side with caution and say don't do it, whether or not they know if it could be done or not. I think it's possible that it could be done. Now before people jump on me for saying that, I'm not recommending anyone try it, just like I wouldn't recommend anyone hanging from a keychain carabiner, but I know that can be done. I doubt the intent was to go out and start rappelling on paracord, but rather an excercise to see if it's possible, and if it could be done without proper equipment.

Legal disclaimer - Don't rappel on paracord. Don't even think about doing it. Don't look up breaking strengths of paracord on the net, and micro-descenders and harnesses, or even daydream about it. You will certainly fall and kill yourself, and most likely fall on something sharp and pointy for even thinking about something as crazy as rappelling on paracord.

Now, if we were talking about doing this in a book that you're writing, and it's all just hypothetical, that's a different story. To get around the issue of strength, doubling or quadrupling the paracord would give you a much greater safety margin, so you'd want as many strands as you could get. Although, for someone very experienced in rappelling, I'd bet they could probably do it with one strand if they were very, very careful. I know a lot of the descenders won't work too well with such thin cord, you will probably need something specific for that use. Maybe a figure 8 or some variation might work with multiple strands, I don't know, but you'd need more friction. The work gloves would obviously be used on your hands to prevent rope burns. Chafing is a huge issue with thin cords, so any tarp or poncho would be folded over several times and used as padding around the rope (held in place by zip ties) to prevent abrasion. As for a harness, I'm thinking a really really well made backpack, with strong hipbelt and sternum strap, could possibly be used as a makeshift harness. Either that or use the hammock as a giant sling, and sit inside of it while attaching the descender to the top. And since we've gone through all this trouble to setup a makeshift rappelling rig, forget the climbing carabiner and use the one of those keychain ones. It's probably stronger than anything else used in the setup.

Of course that's just random thoughts on my part. You could use webbing to create a harness, but they're extremely uncomfortable, even on a short rappel. Or you could do a body rappel (the dulfer), but if you've ever done it on regular climbing rope, you won't even consider doing it with thin cord. There's also the muenter hitch, but using that on paracord that would be a last, last, last resort. Again, don't think about doing any of this in real life, you'll die. But if it absolutely needed to be done, that's how I would do it.

Posted by: BOD

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 11:15 AM

I think he has already been persuaded not to do it and to wait in the burning building for the emergency services.

What he could consider doing is learning to rappel and then with the knowledge learnt reassess his original idea. it would be foolish to wait till an emergency to try it out.

When I escort groups in the jungles I carry a 7mm line but no harness. this is to save weight and that is as critical as the potential safety issues.I have never had to rappel to assist anyone but did once descend a steep section using the CLASSIC ABSEIL to save time.

Don't fool around with back packs and slings, learn to tie an improvised harness.

Personally, I don't think I'd use it
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 12:31 PM

I suspect, hypothetically of course, that a six carabiner brake might work, 'specially if you had some smaller sized 'biners. NOT the toy key chain ones tho!!!
Posted by: clearwater

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 01:55 PM

Long link to fire self rescue rope federal requirement.

Looks like minimum harness strength they give is 300 lbs.

I know a rappel can generate over 1000 lbs if you slip
a bit and load the system.



http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:9IKW7EgvfYgJ:www.homelandsecurity.az.gov/documents/TSCDocs/NFPA/NFPA1983-01ed.pdf+NFPA+1983%E2%80%932001&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 02:35 PM

Quote:
Looks like minimum harness strength they give is 300 lbs.



No, that is simply the standardized weight for the test torso.

6.3.1.2

The static and dynamic load test data are in sections 6.3.1.5 through 6.3.5.4 and looks like a 22k/N force is applied for the static testing.

Pete

Posted by: Dragonscript

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 06:34 PM

Well, i hope that splitting a 550 cord in half was a joke because you can't do that to 550 cord.

If i had to get out of a building with 550 cord i would tie one end to my belt and loop the rope around something VERY solid and immobile and lower myself down. I would be happy with any bones i broke if/when the rope fails since it would have been much worse to jump out the window. I guess if you had enough 550 cord you could knot the middle to your belt and increase the odds that your cord not failing.

Posted by: Lasd02

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/09/07 08:29 PM


Yes, the whole thing was a joke. Don't do any of it...ever...please.
Posted by: KarenRei

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 08/15/07 08:21 PM

This is a bit old, but any rope can be made stronger (albeit shorter) by a good, old-fashioned reverse wrap. Very old fashioned -- as in paleolithic wink Grab the middle with both hands, and twist your hands in opposite directions until it kinks. The kink will be your new rope. Keep twisting. When you run out, knot it off, and you're done.

Of course, if you're in a burning building or whatnot, you don't really have time for that.

I did the calculations on the safety of abseiling with 550 cord over here, in case you're curious:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/bearwiki/Using_parachute_cord_to_abseil_down_a_cliff

A 100 kilogram person slipping 2 1/2 feet and stopping in a quarter second should reliably break 550 cord. And that assumes that you haven't abraded it first, since it's not really that abrasion resistant.
Posted by: duckbill

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/30/09 09:01 PM

Hi Enter_Narne:

Get the training first. I agree with the experts that you should have the proper gear. You could put a pretty small rappel setup together. For example the NY fire department uses a small emergency setup called the Petzl ECO system.
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products...esaving-device/

This setup is basically a small Gri-gri and carabineer attached to 7.5mm Technora rope, of which I’ve seen in 25’ and 50’ packages.
There is another version called the Petzl Tactical EXO Eashook.
http://www.itstactical.com/2009/08/20/petzl-tactical-exo-eashook/

FYI - You might also be interested in watching and episode of the TV show Surviving Disaster: Surviving a Building Fire. It’s on Spike TV. In that episode Courtley twisted six strands of Ethernet cable together and repelled. A few different methods were shown included creating a Swiss seat (harness) and using a German technique to rappel without a harness.


Posted by: hikermor

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/30/09 11:31 PM

It is amusing to read this thread and realize that in an emergency everyone is fiddling around with harnesses, carabiners, and rappelling devices. Back when the earth had just cooled and climbing was in a more primitive state, everyone learned the dulfersitz. It is very simple and quick. All you need is a well anchored rope and your (hopefully well padded) bod. You can finish a 100 foot rappel before the average person has donned a harness and rigged up. I dulfered back in the day and I had the scars to prove it, but still used it from time to time on SAR operations in subsequent years. When I taught rappelling, I made sure the student was at least aware of the technique and the situations in which it might be employed. If I recall the Surviving Disaster episode, the dulfersitz was briefly demonstrated.

Rappelling on para cord is insane. An edition of Accidents in American Mountaineering sometime around 1954 unequivocally stated that para cord had no place in climbing (well, maybe shoelaces). That statement was based on analysis of several climbing accidents that occurred that year.

If I were in a tall building and considering emergency rappelling,I would stash the right amount of proper rope, consult the revised edition of On Rope, by Bruce Smith and Allen Padgett, 1996, and get TRAINING and then PRACTICE. I would figure out how to rig my anchor (a pretty critical step) and get through the window. Proper padding of the edge would be critical.

Rappelling looks easy, and while it doesn't require any significant physical strength, a lot can go wrong, and the results of an accident are nightmarish. Trust me.
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 02:13 AM

Enter_Narne

Interesting question. I happened to be idly sitting around and wondering the same thing this week. But it was more along the lines of casual speculation. "Out of the box" if you like.

Just as background, I climbed and rapelled for many, many years.

Something about your question seems to imply that you have not (or don't regularly) rappel. Normally the smallest diameter rope used for raps is 9 mm rope. It works fine - but you need to watch your setup a little bit to make sure you've got enough friction in the system. Obviously you don't want to get into a run-away situation while descending. Cave explorers have the most elaborate rappel gear - quite nice stuff!

If you have not rapelled - learn that method first using standard techniques and equipment.

Now back to your question. Could paracord be used? It would be a very risky thing to try to do. It would require that you weight the paracord carefully and that you do not bounce at all going down. It would also require that the cord should not snag or rub over any abrasive surface. You could not afford to lose any strength from the cord at all. But the main thing would be to figure out some sort of rappel rig that would create a LOT of friction with a very small-diameter cord. NONE of the normal rappel techniques do this. You would have to take time to develop something quite new (or nonstandard). The whole maneuver would fall into the category of an emergency high-risk operation. It's pushing the outer bounds of safety.

Let us know if you ever succeed - without killing yourself!

And if you do actually do experiment with this - for goodness sake set up a safety line with a proper rope (11 mm) and a harness on your body ... so you don't ground out if you screw up - or something breaks.

Pete
Posted by: comms

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 02:36 AM

I haven't read any of the earlier posts, (that I can remember). I rappelled a couple times from my 3rd floor balcony using 550 cord for the rope AND the swiss seat.

Um, yes, i absolutely bruised everything but it worked just fine.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 02:47 AM

To paraphrase, there are bold rappellers, and there are old rappellers, but there are no old, bold rappellers.

It isn't clear what the potential advantage of using para cord might be. Right at my desk is a stuff sack containing 30 meters (roughly 100 feet)of 8mm kernmantle which I purchased to use on a favorite climb of mine. With a few slings and odds and ends, it is about the size of a loaf of bread and weighs maybe two pounds max. It can be easily carried anywhere and could be readily stashed in a desk or locker. With care, it will rappel nicely. So why mess with anything incomparably more dangerous?
Posted by: Desperado

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 04:13 AM

One word:
LUCK
Posted by: dougwalkabout

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 04:56 AM

I'm grateful that I've never had to test this out. It represents the most desperate scenario (i.e., immediate and certain death is the other option).

From the work I've done with industry, dealing with fall protection and fall arrest, 550 lb. is a joke.

Even with an absolute static load of 200 lb., you are at redline. The slightest swing or bounce puts you at or above 550.

With a very small drop (a foot or more), the shock load on the line magnifies as much as tenfold -- the weight of a full-size pickup truck.

The bottom line is: you have no margin whatsoever for movement, error, anything, using paracord.

(This is assuming, of course, that you have fresh, genuine, tested-quality paracord. There are lots of very close-looking clones out there, made in China. Fine for lashing down a tarp, but will they hold half of 550?)

P.S., I'm not beating up on the OP in any way. It's a good question, worth asking. That's what this forum is about IMO.
Posted by: Matt26

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 12:25 PM

The only issue with the Petzl system is that they will not sell it unless you have a cetification number from their required training program. You have to be certified by them to even buy the system. Great racket in my mind. I understand it's for their protection but no other climbing gear company requires training before purchasing their equipment. I suspect it has something to do with the joint development of the system with the FDNY.
Posted by: Desperado

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Matt26
The only issue with the Petzl system is that they will not sell it unless you have a cetification number from their required training program. You have to be certified by them to even buy the system. Great racket in my mind. I understand it's for their protection but no other climbing gear company requires training before purchasing their equipment. I suspect it has something to do with the joint development of the system with the FDNY.


It may also have something to do with their liability insurance.

In our tower rescue schools the Fisk Descender is the only device taught, even though there are better rescue and descent devices available. When I once asked, the powers that be stated the Fisk device had no moving parts and the training company's insurance liked it better. Even though the insurance company has exactly ZERO high angle experience.
Posted by: wildman800

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 01:32 PM

"How do you repel using paracord?"

I don't.

I've always used a 3/8ths inch or larger line. I would be willing to go with a 1'4 inch line but that would be as small as I am willing to play with.
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 07:36 PM

Thinking about this some more - I really don't think you want to go with the paracord.

Why consider paracord?
Simple - because it's light. Ropes are heavy - esp. if you have to carry them up hills for a long way. So people are always trying to reduce the weight of the rope.

Several responders here have pointed out that if you were to take a short bounce, the rappel rope would be subjected to a much bigger force. You might easily break the paracord, even if it is rated at 550 pounds. That's a very good point. And as I think about my old climbing days --- I gotta' say that it's very easy to bounce on a rappel rope. Happens commonly. In fact, it would be pretty hard to rappel without ever bouncing on the rope. Maybe if you did a direct vertical "free rappel" you might pull it off - if you were super careful.

There's another reason to reject the paracord. The strength of these cords and ropes depends partly on the outside sheath that's woven around the inner core of fibers. That outside sheath can supply as much as 30% of the strength of the rope. So if it gets damaged - your paracord would be a LOT weaker than you thought it was.

So if you start experimenting with crazy rappel hardware that might work on paracord, you could wind up seriously twisting or damaging the sheath on the cord. That would not be good.

I think what we've established is that regular paracord (of the size you have in mind) is just not a good idea.

What you need ... is for someone to invent a super-strength paracord that's specially intended for rappeling. If anyone does that, you could be back in business!

Pete
Posted by: ironraven

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 10/31/09 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: wildman800
I don't.


Well said.

I love paracord, I've got a couple hundred feet of the stuff in the cordage box on the shelf next to me, actually. But for things like lanyards, bear bagging, guy lining, boot laces, and the like. But I've had the stuff break holding a hammock up before- a sleeping Raven dump in a cold swamp at oh-dark-hundred is a VERY grumpy version of Raven. No shock, no stress, just gravity and me and some knots.

Nowadays, I use 1" tubular webbing for tree straps, and full fledged climbing biners. Works well.
Posted by: JCWohlschlag

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/01/09 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
If I recall the Surviving Disaster episode, the dulfersitz was briefly demonstrated.

Just for citation purposes…

http://www.spike.com/full-episode/fire/33779 @ approximately 37:48 in the video.
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/02/09 07:36 PM

Hey all, I have been out for awhile, so first post in several months.

I recommend 1 inch tubular nylon for emergency rappelling, if it becomes necessary. It will work for rope and a Swiss seat. You do also need a carabiner. You will need to put extra wraps in the biner just to get enough friction(I recommend 4)and you will still descend rapidly. However, it takes up much less room and weighs much less than regular rope. Yes, I have used it quite a few times myself. We used it for descending from trees on parachute jumps that went wrong. It will not survive many times being used this way,the friction tend to melt it. If you have the choice, replace it after one use. It is still probably too cumbersome for EDC to the office, but it is safer than 550 cord.

But yes, if I had the choice of burning or rappelling with 550, I will rappel.
Posted by: Tjin

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/02/09 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Hey all, I have been out for awhile, so first post in several months.

I recommend 1 inch tubular nylon for emergency rappelling, if it becomes necessary. It will work for rope and a Swiss seat. You do also need a carabiner. You will need to put extra wraps in the biner just to get enough friction(I recommend 4)and you will still descend rapidly. However, it takes up much less room and weighs much less than regular rope. Yes, I have used it quite a few times myself. We used it for descending from trees on parachute jumps that went wrong. It will not survive many times being used this way,the friction tend to melt it. If you have the choice, replace it after one use. It is still probably too cumbersome for EDC to the office, but it is safer than 550 cord.

But yes, if I had the choice of burning or rappelling with 550, I will rappel.


Just cord on a carabiner doesn't create a lot of friction. If used with cord, i would use a munter hitch, but i never tried that with webbing. Ohw, also nice to know, not all webbing are equil. Get the strong stuff.

As a sportsclimber i'm sticking with mine 10mm dynamic rope...
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/03/09 02:59 AM

Montanero

Can you be any more specific about how you wrapped the 1-inch tubular webbing on a carabiner. Doesn't sound like an easy way to control friction ... there's not a lot of room for screwing up with that set-up (you don't want a runaway to happen). But thanks for posting the method - I'm interested.

Pete
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/03/09 04:42 AM

Normal method of wrapping rope through the carabiner, just four times. There is plenty of room, especially with the webbing.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/03/09 11:42 AM

8mm kernmantle is about the same size and weight as 1 inch tubular webbing - it would be my choice
Posted by: gonewiththewind

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/09/09 09:31 PM

Was curious about the rope mentioned and found this little kit.

Rescue Perk Pak by Sterling Rope

* Compact lightweight Personal Escape Rope (PER) rope Made with a 40-carrier sheath construction
* Minimum breaking strength (MBS) of 3956 lbs.
* Great handling, durable, high tensile strength lifeline
* Certified to NFPA 1983, 2001 edition for Personal Escape Rope
* Includes 40' of 8 mm PER, Cordura bag, and locking carabiner


$44
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 12:22 AM

OK, we're at the stage where we all need to quit talkin' about this - and go TRY it out. That's the whole point of this forum right? Real answers to survival needs ... demand real testing.

So - do we have any volunteers?

Please DO use an extra safety rope when you experiment with unusual rappel techniques. Better still ... have a buddy put you on belay. That way you can totally focus on the rappelling, and your friend can focus on keeping you safe.

Pete
Posted by: clearwater

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 12:54 AM

If you don't know enough about it to even spell it right---
Posted by: Oware

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 01:20 AM

In practicing for when the lifts got stuck, we used to rap out of chair lifts with a tube webbing diaper sling,
locking carabiner, and 6mm perlon.

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/produc...+Accessory+Cord

Note the breaking strength of 6mm is 11 kN. And it was considered marginal for a repshnur.

Real 550 cord is about 2 kN.

We used a munter hitch---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munter_hitch
and wore our ski gloves. Also passed the rope
between our legs and around our hip for a bit of increased friction.

Comrades would give a bottom belay by tugging on the rope from
below if we got out of control.

Those with search dogs lowered the dogs first.

http://www.owareusa.com/images/brookhangdog.jpg

Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 02:36 PM

By the way ... I was referring to trying the rappel using webbing. Not using paracord. I still don't think the thin paracord is a good idea - for reasons already explained.

Pete
Posted by: Lasd02

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 06:59 PM

Wow! The original post is over 2 years old and still going strong. Twisted Kevlar Thread #800 has a minimum breaking strength of 225lbs. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...
Posted by: Tjin

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Lasd02
Wow! The original post is over 2 years old and still going strong. Twisted Kevlar Thread #800 has a minimum breaking strength of 225lbs. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...


Thats why i didn't take to much time to answer the question.

225lbs is nothing. Thats just for static loads. Repelling is dynamic and create a lot more force than that. It's also not just the strenght of the cord, but also if you can control you rappel. So you need a certain thickness for a belay device.
Posted by: Lasd02

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/10/09 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: PC2K
Originally Posted By: Lasd02
Wow! The original post is over 2 years old and still going strong. Twisted Kevlar Thread #800 has a minimum breaking strength of 225lbs. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...


Thats why i didn't take to much time to answer the question.

225lbs is nothing. Thats just for static loads. Repelling is dynamic and create a lot more force than that. It's also not just the strenght of the cord, but also if you can control you rappel. So you need a certain thickness for a belay device.


You're exactly right PC2K, when it comes to suspending yourself from, say a 10th floor landing, 225lbs. breaking strength is nothing.

That's the problem with written communication, it's very difficult to convey sarcasm. I would never seriously advise someone to trust their life to 550 cord or Kevlar thread so when I post silly comments like these I'm acting on the assumption that those reading my post clearly understand it's ironic nature.

I'm confident that you, and probably most ETS readers, understand this but it is a good reminder to me that often young or naive readers might visit this page and get the wrong idea. So, for the record, I do not advise using paracord or Kevlar thread for repelling.


Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/11/09 03:49 AM

Folks .. with due respect.

If you want to add on to the end of a thread - how about checking earlier comments? We've already beaten this subject to death. It's vitually suicidal to rappel on a piece of low-strength paracord. The risk of breaking the cord due to dynamic loads is just too high.

However, the subject branched off when one of our readers pointed out that they have rappelled off 1-inch tubular webbing. That's an interesting technique - because webbing is quite light in weight and easy to carry. So the issue boils down to EXACTLY how you do the technique with webbing.

Therefore - back to what I said above.
Enough jawboning - time to go TRY it out. Safely, of course.
Report back when YOU Have got an answer for the forum.

Finally, "rappel" is a valid spelling of the technique.

Pete
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/12/09 06:46 PM

Things got quiet here :-)
Hopefully we've got a few people out trying these alternate rappel techniques ... using 1-inch webbing..

If not - I'll do it myself and report back to the forum in the futue. But it might take a few weeks (or months) because right now i am working on a different set of survival skills. I will post those in due course as well.

Good luck to everyone!

Pete
Posted by: hikermor

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/12/09 08:33 PM

When you do this, I would be curious to know how various ascenders or prusik knots work with 1 inch webbing. Use of these devices could be called for in case of a knot in the rappel webbing, jamming of the rappel device, etc., even in an emergency situation.

I have encountered more than a few rappelers who had no idea of how they would deal with a knotted rope, end of the rope situation, or a jammed shirt in their rappel device. I judge their training to be incomplete.

I am sure we haven't reached the end of our ro...er, thread, yet, by a long shot....
Posted by: thseng

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/12/09 08:59 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have encountered more than a few rappelers who had no idea of how they would deal with a knotted rope, end of the rope situation, or a jammed shirt in their rappel device. I judge their training to be incomplete.

Absolutely right! Always carry a pair of prusik loops. Practice with them. Practice improvising one from the end of the rappel rope. Read Touching the Void and practice some more.

By the way, should your descender become jammed, DON'T USE A KNIFE TO CEAR IT!

Nylon under tension cuts VERY easily. The fibers practically split at the mere sight of a knife blade.
Posted by: Pete

Re: How do you Repel Using Paracord? - 11/13/09 01:19 AM

Both the posts above are good and accurate. It is really a good idea to tie a knot in the end of a free-hanging rappel rope, or to tie in the bottom end of the rope to a fixed anchor. I would have lost my life many years ago in a climbing accident on El Capitan (at night) ... but for the fact that my partner was smart and fixed the bottom end of the rope to a bolt anchor on the cliff face.

Prusik's - or better still ascenders - are really essential gear also. For any kind of complicated rappelling they are absolutely essential.

I'm not sure any of these precautions would work with 1-inch webbing. That's one reason why I want to try it out.

Pete