Pellet gun in BOB

Gamo P-23
I own a pellet gun (same one as in the link above) that I use for backyard pest control and for plinking. I was wondering if a pellet gun like the one I own, would be viable in aiding in the procurement of food in an emergency situation? I'm thinking that it'd be a good tool to have around, be I could be wrong.

I used to have one, and found it useless for practically everything.

Sue

If the pellet gun is powerful and accurate enough to bag squirrels and rabbits, then yes I think it would be a good tool to have. Low noise level and can carry lots of ammo, what more could you ask for. With a little practice I think anyone could easily score some squirrels with it. I think it is a good idea.

smitty

That one, probably not so much. But I've got several thousand pellets for a .20 caliber air rifle (and the rifle) in my collection of gear because it will take a rabbit with a head shot and is accurate enough to pull it off out to about 25 feet. Quite, reasonably reliable, and ammunition takes up almost nothing. I figure a .50 cal can of pellets will last for several years.

I have looked at the specification for the Gamo P-23. With a .177 (say 8.2 grains) pellet at 400 ft/sec the Energy (ft-lbs) is only 2.91. This is unacceptable to hunt rabbits or squirrels with. The minimum Energy (ft-lbs) should be at least 10-12 minimum. A more acceptable energy requirement for a clean kill should be greater than than the minimum I have quoted here. As the P-23 is a CO2 pistol, the pistol does not have unlimited usage unless you have a stock of 12gm CO2 cartridges. A more acceptable and useful air powered rifle would be something along the lines of the Air Arms S410 TDR



Export (FAC) versions should go up to more than 30 ft-lbs. A firearms certificate (FAC) is required in the UK for air rifles over 12ft lbs. I know, I know. But these weapons can be lethal even for humans above 12 ft-lbs.

I've got one of these and it works great:

http://www.crosman.com/site/listing/1101



Shoots a .22 caliber pellet at ~450 fps, but it is hand pumped so you don't need co2 cartridges. They're built better than the regular crosman guns too. It won't break the bank either at about $125. Whereas the TDR is over $1000.

A rifle would definately be better, but they are much larger and heavier.

Been awhile since I looked into this stuff. My Beeman R1 spring air rifle in .20 cal is extremely accurate, powerful, and has an adjustable trigger, and doesn't require CO2 cartridges. I imagine nowadays they are worth a pretty penny. As I recall, they import/imported a wide range of top notch air rifles that will last a lifetime. Check 'em out. My favorite ones are the ones made in Germany (Weihrach??). I think they may be pricier but well worth it if you're thinking longterm food.

Once I had occasion to eliminate a trash bird in my back yard. I would estimate he was about 30 feet away up in a tree. I popped him with the R1, there was a puff of feathers, and I couldn't even find the beak. So, if you want to eat small birds, it's a bad choice. But for bigger prey, it should do the job pronto. Around here there are enough pigeons to sink a battleship on any given day. Squirrels too. And opossums. And seagulls (fishy taste?). I could probably shoot this gun every day for the rest of my life 'til I was sick of it and not spend more than $50 on ammo.

Crosman 1377 Pistol can also be fitted with a shoulder stock making it a light little carbine, I'm not sure about rabbits but I know for certain it will kill large birds like pigeons so it might help fill the stew pot.

"I've got several thousand pellets for a .20 caliber air rifle (and the rifle) in my collection of gear because it will take a rabbit with a head shot and is accurate enough to pull it off out to about 25 feet."

If the wind isn't blowing. But if the game is within 25 ft, why not just throw a rock at it?

Sue

I don’t know much about air guns, but depending on the power of an air gun, it could procure some food for you.

However… would it not be more prudent to get a real gun for that? Rifles and pistols chambered in .22 LR have many of the same benefits of air guns: ammunition’s cheap, ammunition’s small, and relatively quiet. Additionally, a .22 LR will have a much greater range, better accuracy, a pretty good assurance of making a clean kill on small game, and even has a chance against larger (maybe even two-legged if you aim well) game.

I cannot speak for you, but if I were in an “emergency situation”, I would want something that is extremely reliable, has an excellent chance of doing its intended job, and is versatile enough to do other jobs as well. An air gun could work if it’s all you have, but I would look into getting something better suited to the task. Emergency situations are not a time for guesswork.

It's true that a "real" gun would be better than an airgun, but I don't know how I feel about keeping one in a car kit/BOB year round.

I think that a pellet gun could be a handy thing to have along, not as good as a "real" gun for all things, but the proper pellet gun could get lots of food, assuming birds, squirrels, rabbits, etc, are in the area. One could also provide lots of entertainment. But I am not sure that a small BB pistol would be good for much but entertainment. For critter gathering I would prefer a .22 cal, and a "pump" action would be better, since one can't carry a large supply of CO2 cylinders with them. I have never owned one, or even seen one in a while, but Coleman used to make a detachable shoulder stock for their pump pistol, seems to me that might be a compact, powerful, and somewhat accurate weapon...

Are they legal? It certaintly would make a pistol, pellet or otherwise, a lot more useful.

A pelletgun not being a firearm, seems to me that it would be legal as can be, at least where I live...

Here it is for a .177 pistol, haven't be able to locate it in .22 yet. And I don't know if the stock for the .177 can be used/modified to fit a .22...

Lewis and Clark carried two large caliber air rifles with them on their trip west and wrote in their journals that they took large game with them. I also saw a program on one of the out doors shows a few weeks ago, It was showing Gamo's new adult gun and ammo in .177 and they took two pigs (not real big ones around 80lbs but a lot bigger than any rabbit I ever saw) at around 25'. I have had a Sheridan Blue Streak in .20cal since I was a kid (many rebuilds ago). I have taken coyotes with it at 30'+ (with an unused pistol for backup). All in all an air rifle is not your best self defense weapon but it is an excellent and quiet way to procure small game for food.

I think so too, but it might be best to check your locality. I probably wouldn't bother with carrying a pellet gun anyway but it might be worthwhile to be able to fabricate a usable shoulder stock in the field for a regular sidearm. In a survival situation the legalities would be of secondary importance anyway.

"...why not just throw a rock at it?..."

Could work, I did actually manage to bean a rabbit with a rock once (I was actually just trying to get it to move, and conked it by mistake), but I can shoot just about anything with more accuracy than I can throw. Dizzy Dean I ain't...

IIRC Tennessee considers it to be a firearm for carry purposes. One of the local cities specifically outlawed the sale air rifles a long time ago and just recently did the same for paintball guns (2nd hand info on the paintball guns). All the other cities around have no problems. Look in the sporting good section of four out of five cities' Wally Worlds and no problem getting one but the only large retailers in one county can't carry them because they are in the city limits.

I also had a Sheriden 5mm and found it had the power of a 22cal and was most certainly deadly to all small game and birds. I felt like it could handle bigger vamints by merely being a little picky with my targeting.

I would love to find another one,,in the meantime, I keep a Crosman pump with beaucoup pellets and B-B's on hand!!

I forgot to mention in my last response I also have a small BB pistol I carry with me to its BB only and has a 15 round clip and it only shoots 400fps but it's one saving grace is that it is full auto and if you don't know its a BB gun it will scare the $#!% out of ya when I pull the trigger.

LOL! Becuase I can shoot; I throw "like a girl", no offense. It also is smaller and lighter and easier than carrying and finding a lot of rocks, and they work better on moving targets due to a higher velocity.

I've made effective body shots on squirrels further than that, but but for rabbit or woodchuck, I'd want to go for a headshot rather than lose the game. I also usually don't see the little stuff much further away than 25 feet in my area, the scrub is too thick.

I can get three pellets for my .20 into the space and mass of a .22LR, with room left over.

For my own information :
Did I get it right : the differences between a BB air gun and a pellet air gun are mainly the missile itself (round steel ball vs lead pellet) and the barrel (smoothbore vs rifled barrel) ??


FYI, in France, air guns, which muzzle energy is over 10 joules, must be declared to authorities ("7ème catégorie")
Such air guns are not easy to find here.
I found an english maker, but the prices he asks for his guns ... amazing... about 1900€, without VAT.
That's in the same range as a (very) good target .22LR carbine ( i.e. Anschutz).
I guess it has to do with guns laws in GB (Bentirran ?? what's your take on this ??)

Right on everything except maybe the barrel. IIRC both have rifling. It's just that if the bottom of the pellet expands to the rifling it will work better. It's like the old rifled muskets with either round shot or minnie balls.

The Whiscombe air rifle looks probably as good as it gets for air rifle technology. The JW80-FB MKII specifications and independent accuracy figures are excellent. The price of this make of air rifle $1670 is very expensive though and at the end of the day a much cheaper rifle could be had and when considering the markmenship skills most have, most people wouldn't be able to shoot any better with this expensive rifle. If fact a cheap chinese made QB78 or QB79 for around $90 would suit most. As you have pointed out the cost of the Whiscombe is similar to a Anschutz .22LR. this is not down to any firearms law restriction, this is because at the end of the day the Whiscombe air rifle is just a precision rifle in much the same way the Anschutz is.

A comparison against a tuned QB78 and an Anschutz 1808 .22LR over 25 yards can be found here ;

http://members.fortunecity.com/airgunclub/qb78index.html#test

Its not a very refined air rifle and quality varies but if you get a good one it is a bargain.

As you can see the groupings for the JW80-FB MKII they are superb up to about 50 yards then begin to get a lot poorer. This is just down to the nature of the balistics of the air rifle pellets. As can be seen at 80 yards the groupings are now about 1.5 to 2.0 inches. I would expect the Anschutz .22LR to be much more accurate over 50 yards to 120 yards. At around 150 to 180 metres the Anschultz would be all over the place. Good quality air rifles are certainly as accurate as .22 LR rifles up to around 25 to 50 yards. The differences between them would require some exceptional markmanship skills to tell them apart at the other end of the range. Discussing groupings takes me back a few years when using the old Lee Enfield .303. I used to be able to get 4 inch groupings with just the iron sights at 200 metres when I was a teenager.

Thanks.

Actually, I did some accuracy studies and found the 1377 pistol was more accurate without the shoulder stock. On mine at least, the shoulder stock connection was not rock stable and it interfered with accuracy given the relatively slow travel time of the pellet out of the barrel.

I don't care for pump action airguns (unless it is a single-stroke pump-action), because the point of aim will vary depending on the number of pumps you put into the shot. At least with single-stroke guns, like the Gamo Compact single-stroke target pistol (which is more accurate than many air-rifles I've tested), you have a "calibrated" power level that doesn't affect point of aim.

Here's a link to the Gamo Compact air pistol.

Gamo Compact Air Pistol

This is absolutely the most accurate airpistol I have ever tested. It is not extremely powerful (400 fps in .177 cal), but it truly is capable of pinpoint accuracy. It has an excellent adjustable target trigger which is very important in obtaining top accuracy.
I see they are about $225 now. I bought mine several years ago at a Turners Outdoorsman store in Pasadena for a little over $100. Amazing airgun for the money.

Hate to be a fly in the ointment, but I'll bet that if I spend 10% of the cost of a good airgun on classic wooden mouse traps and rat traps, I'll eat pretty well and you'll be pretty lean. That doesn't mean high-velocity airguns and .22s are out of place -- love 'em both. But I think most of the easy calories in most environments move around at night, and unless you stay up all night with a starlight scope, they will zip right through your camp without so much as a wave. (That's my take anyway.)

It's about even between day and night. But yes, traps are more effective. For bulk, durability, versatility and actual need, I'd rather carry snare wire. I've never had a mouse trap that I was really happy with, but rat traps will work.

That being said, a good, small bore, low velocity pistol is good for prey of opportunity.

Traps are dandy if you are staying in one place. They don't work so well for targets of opportunity or if you are moving along a trail. Adding a .22 or .177 will allow you to collect the rabbit or squirrel you happen across while gathering wood, etc.

I thought that was the point I was making... Oh well, I'd been awake almost 20 hours when I posted, I might have been a little braintied.

Looking back, it was. I'm at the point of dead week for Spring semester. It's living up to it's name for this one.

I have owned, and shot extensively, most of the popular air gun mentioned above. I agree with Susan, don't waste your time; get a .22 and be done with it.

A .22 will, of course, make plenty of perhaps undesireable noise compared to something like a spring-air gun if a degree of stealth is of interest. On the other hand, something like CB Longs or CB cap .22 ammo (CB Longs are preferable IMHO) will be almost as quiet as a pump-up or high powered CO2 air rifle. That is, of course, a terrific advantage of a .22 arm, a very high degree of flexibility and efficiency.

Air guns are fascinating, though, and in many instances can be used and practiced with at home in your garage or basement safely and without attracting attention (observe all applicable local laws and ordinances of course, and use a proper backstop, target trap, and eye protection). Practice makes perfect (and is fun), as they say. For further information on air arms of all kinds, I can highly recommend the Air Gun Digest, which use to be published every few years. Don't know if they publish it anymore, but the old editions are absolutely fascinating if you have the slightest bit of interest in the sport/hobby.

LOL- I won't jinx you by wishing you beneficent fate as influenced by random events.

Or in the living room, if the land lord doesn't know and you don't miss.

At least a few of us, in this particular topic, when refering to .22 mean a .22 PELLET gun, as opposed to a .177/BB pellet gun. A .22 pelet gun makes no more noise than a .177, just hits harder. A .22 cal rimfire is a horse of another color...

i'm not going to read ALL those posts in response to your
pellet gun question,but i would say--worthless..i have and
fool around with one and at useable range you could kill
a small animal or bird with a good sling shot and make no
noise.in real life i would use shot shells in a 357 pistol
or a chamber reducer in a rifle..

Not even close in my experience. Airguns sound like movie silencers at the loudest. The sound of a BB hitting a metal trashcan is louder even when pushing the pressure way past what is recommended. A .22 CB still has the distinctive crack of a firearm.

I've been thinking about that a lot myself. I've had a .177 air rifle since I was a kid and it's a very simple to use, dependable system. My first air gun was actually second hand and pretty old when I got it. Aside from replacing the gasket a couple of times over the years it's still in perfectly good shape.

A decent airgun would definitely be an asset in skilled hands. It's way more accurate than a slingshot or thrown rock. Really, the accuracy is downright amazing at short range. I bought a Czech air rifle for under $100 and from a fixed position it will shoot a 3/8" group at 10y any day even with cheap ammo. This is more than good enough for taking headshots on small game with .177.

The main problem as I see it however is the lack of power (and short range). .177 would be just enough to take a small bird, mouse or squirrel at 10 yards at most (might be necessary to put a scope on the gun to ensure a clean hit). Maybe a very powerful .177 could take a rabbit with a headshot but I'm not sure. I've never shot a .22 air gun so I can't tell the difference. But all in all, these guns are seriously underpowered and at the same time bulky enough to be pretty cumbersome on the move.

It's a real shame there's no reasonably compact, large caliber air gun on the market (multi pump might be ideal on the trail) at an accessible price. Maybe something along the lines of the old Girandoni (repeating rifle w/ 20 shot capacity, about as powerful as .38 Special). http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm

I wouldn't try anything with a gun that only shoots 400 FPS. Paintball guns shoot about 300 FPS, though at a higher caliber... which might cause less damage.

Anyway, off track. Gamo makes single pump air rifles in .177 (and I believe "shotgun" versions). Some of their guns will shoot up to 1200 FPS. They also sell specific ammo that supposedly increases the speed up to 25%. If you're dead bent on getting an air rifle, theoretically you could get one that shoots 1600 FPS.

I have taken small game (rabitts, and squirles) with .22 cb caps fired from a ruger 10/22 with a muzzle velocity of 350fps they did a great job within 25-30 ft.

Ditto. I have also had great success with the CB caps in a youth single shot or a TC Contender. I don't leave these in my BOB, yet they would leave with me .
kmat

Some of the crack may be due to breaking the speed of sound (about 1100 fps), but I noticed someone said the CB ammo is much slower than that. However, be that as it may, an airgun that shoots faster than the speed of sound will make a very audible crack too, just like a whip will. This added velocity may not get you much in the practical sense except more racket.

My personal airgun hunting preference is a .20 cal Beeman R1. This is a top-quality accurate, extremely dependable and longlasting combination for plinking or filling a pot. Not only that, but there is an extensive manual on tweaking, repairing, and maintaining the R1 that was published some years ago by the operator of a very popular airgun website (The Beeman R1 - Supermagnum Air Rifle, by Tom Gaylord). It's a worthwhile addition to any R1 owner's survival library.

The caps are what? Don't forget that the 22 has a bit greater mass. I doubt it's a big difference in total kinetic energy though, given the slow muzzle velocity.

Given the choice between my pellet gun and my 10/22, I'd probably take the Ruger.

I've use these as well, and other a bit more crud left in the cylinder of my old K-22 I wasn't unhappy. And yes, those with a .22LR gives your more versatility.

However, what the airguns have going for them is that they are not regulated as firearms. That can make a difference at times, along with being nearly silent (a CB cap is NOT as quite a .20 air gun) and relative sizes of the ammunition.

Different tools, different people.

I'll have to look at the Beeman. Every airgun I've seen all are under 1100 fps. IIRC the CB ammo does have a subsonic slug speed. The crack is from the propellant gases as they exit the barrel.

I haven't tried hunting with one but the Crossman model I had 28 years ago would put a good dent in a 70's steel trashcan at that range.

.22 CB is a round even smaller than a .22 short.

Tom , while these air guns are not cheap, and probably not what you want in a BOB, you might find them interesting in terms of power 8^)


http://www.glbarnes.com/

If you really think noise from a .22 cb or other is going to be a problem, there are at least a dozen homemade supperssers available on the net. The one that uses a $6 lawnmower muffler works extremely well. A penny balloon over the end of the barrel will disperse the sound; Having said that, my Benj Pump makes a lot more noise than my .22 using the least powerful cb cap.

Unfortunately most airguns these days are very small caliber. You can take a .177 and increase the muzzle velocity as much as you can but it still won't do much damage even at 1.000+ fps. Also, the pellets are really light and become unstable at very high velocity. I just checked around and it seems even a powerful .22 air gun doesn't come anywhere close to .22LR.

Seriously, when you consider that a "magnum" air rifle is every bit as large and heavy as a .22LR carbine but far behind in terms of power you need to ask yourself if it's really a viable choice. Even in a situation where firearms are out of the question there are better alternatives IMHO. You could get a very good crossbow (something like a recurve Barnett) for under $200. It's just as quiet and low profile as an air gun but far more lethal.

I still think a large caliber air gun would be a great survival rifle. But they tend to be very expensive these days and all operate on the PCP principle, so you basically need a powered pump and scuba tank.

IMO, not worth the weight. I own several RWS break barrels (rifle, short rifle, pistol) and have taken small game with the long arms and once backpacked with a Crossman 22 pump pistol, taking many stupid rabbits for the pot. More powerful than your P-23, but it was marginal; the RWS rifles are far more capable. But they are big and heavy.

I have an old Sheridan 5mm - rebuilt once for me in the late 1960s. It is quite a small game taker, and there are a number of folks who backpack with tuned up versions of these (now owned by Benjamin). It's fairly noisy compared to the spring guns, but much more packable. I've easily taken game as large as woodchucks and raccoons with one shot using the Sheridan. Never mind all the charts and so forth - the Sheridan kills headshot dead-dead-dead using original style pellets - much better than my hopped-up 177. (Note: Woodchucks are good to eat; I don't care much for raccoon, although diet has a huge impact on how they taste - both theirs and mine)

If size matters, put a pistol in your BoB. I've taken a fair amount of small game with a Ruger 22 (my dad's) but like my Ruger stainless 22/45 better (and shoot it better). By far I've taken the most small game with a hot loaded 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, though - I mean, a lot!

Hard to beat a 22 long rifle in a pistol or carbine if you can shoot it well. Ammo is cheap and relatively compact and light weight.

My 2 cents.

Tom