father & son survive epic climbing descent

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=361030

An informative story even if you're not a climber. As usual, their epic resulted from a synergistic combination of multiple factors. Having an informed relative who called the Park Service helped.

Royal Arches is an awesome route. It is pretty easy for the most part but it is 14 pitches (50m rope lengths)long and if you take too long you are either rappelling some 14 pitches (not he route but hagging rap stations to the left of the climb with a bunch of trees trying to snag your ropes)in the dark or trying to find North Dome Gully in the dark. NDG is straight forward in the light of day (there is only one spot where you may want to rappel) but in the dark it is a KILLER. They did the right thing to stop and bivy.
Many climb in Yosemite are quite committing and you always need emergency gear even in summer but you can't take too much or it hinders climbing.
They probably started too late for son's experience. There is always a line up even at dawn.
The time I climbed the route we were at the start at 5:30am waiting for first light. We even climbed the starting pitch in the half-light. We topped out aroung 1:30PM and were drinking beer by 4 at the Awanhee Hotel Bar.
Not to sound to harsh but getting rescued by YOSAR is an embarrasment; I would call YOSAR only if I thought I was definitely going to die. Most climbers have a self-rescue philosophy but in the recent years a lot of folks have become soft. These guys whimped out. They should have waited for first light and found the North Dome Gully.
If they were going to climb to the rim of the Valley in mid-April they should have expected a possible epic and prepared better.
Late start, too long a rope and the BS walkie talkies had everything to do with their problem. They should have used as shorter rope (the route was put up using a 50m rope; they had a 70m. This is inefficient.)and left the electronics. That way they would not have had to get YOSAR to come get their sorry butts.

I have personally witnessed the walkie talkie climber type fumbling the whole way up a route and wasting time talking to their partner. They should learn the old school proven method of yanks and tugs mixed in with a lot of yelling.

I am a memeber of Supertopo.com but have not been visiting the forum as of late. I was suprised to see how encouraging the responses were a few years ago they would have got flamed like crazy.

Let me condense this a bit:

"I became steadily concerned that we weren’t moving fast enough to make the descent gully in daylight... We completed the final pitch...as the sun was setting... The next few hours were spent hiking...to look for the...descent in the moonless dark of night with a headlamp and a flashlight...frustration and increasing concern over not finding any resemblance of a trail or a cairn to follow...we ended up bushwacking through acres of madrone... I grew increasingly concerned that we were depleting our remaining internal resources... Around 11 p.m. we found meager shelter under a nearby boulder... Shortly after bushwacking through acres of madrone the night before, we passed an ideal bivouac location under a large granite boulder, where we could have stayed dry and built a fire. Because I hadn’t given up hope of descending at that time, we had passed on this opportunity. In retrospect, that was a mistake."

He seems to have made a lot of mistakes, IMO. This guy climbed in Yosemite "three decades ago". If he was twenty when he did it, he's fifty now. And he thought he could move as fast on a complicated, demanding climb as when he was twenty? DUMB.

Sunset that day was 7:35 p.m. He passed good shelter because he couldn't seem to understand that conditions had changed, and didn't stop for the night until 11p.m. Tired. Cold. DUMB.

He put himself and his son into a dangerous, possibly life-threatening situation so he could feed his ego and impress his son, then had to call for help so he could put other peoples' lives in danger. DUMB & STUPID.

Before you get into that situation, you really have to have a "turn back" time established. Usually it's associated with folks doing a summit attempt. If they haven't summitted by a certain time, everyone in the party starts heading back down.
That time is usually set to allow a decent, in daylight, to basecamp, with some safety margin.

In addition, a well organized group will have in their mind a "hunker down for the night" time. If you aren't back to camp by some point, you find or make shelter for the night. That isn't 11pm for sure.

It's kinda like a rescue chopper on a SAR mission reaching Bingo fuel over water. If you don't turn back at that point, well, you're inviting another set of issues, like ditching at sea, and creating another set of victims for someone else to search for.

Yes, Unfortunately this happens in Yosemite Valley a lot.
Some climbers think that because they are so near civilization they can be casual about their climb. But the walls of the Valley get very cold very fast at night especially when you did not prepare. I have seen folks out with no shirt and no backup gear. Even on the hottest days I always carry a mylar bivy (now the AMK Heatsheets bivy), a jacket and a micro-weight balaclava because things do go as unplanned when you climb.
Even on climbs I have done before I know there is a possibility of an epic; ropes get stuck, gear gets dropped, parties in front are slow as sh**, you name it.

I was very suprised that no one at Supertopo has called out the guys stupidity; it looks like he got a talking to by Keith Lober.
He is a notorious personality in the Valley. He is LEO and a YOSAR leader; I am told he loves busting climbers for anything he can. I bet he gave this guy an earfull.

Well, I'm not a climber by anyone's definition, so this is purely an outsider's point of view, but I am not comfortable with the increasingly "holier than thou" tone that seems to be becoming the norm on this site.

The fact that he last climbed in Yosemite three decades ago doesn't mean he hasn't climbed in three decades. Heck, there are 70-year olds climbing Mount Everest; what's your evidence that this guy wasn't up to the climb? (For all you know, that climb 30 years ago may have been with *his* dad. In fact, where in his story does he indicate that that was the last time he climbed in Yosemite?) He sounds to me like an experienced climber with 30 years experience, not some yahoo trying to relive his glory days.

Granted, he made mistakes. He also had the courage to post publicly about those mistakes, and he had no problem admitting to them.

BillyM just scares me. If I did climb, I sure wouldn't climb with him after reading his post. The idea that he would put his son's life in danger to avoid the "embarrassment" of calling SAR is just - well, it scares me. In fact, it seems to be precisely that "can-do" attitude which got Vic and Sascha in so deep in the first place.

True, it's easy to talk smart and laugh at those climbers but such things could happen to any of us. Obviously the father made several critical mistakes but that's much more obvious now with the benefit of hindsight than it was in their particular situation. With a little luck they could still have made it on their own. If they had found the trail they would probably have completed the descent, surely arriving back tired and a bit scared but with a good war story to tell. Unfortunately it didn't turn out that way.

Things go awry all the time, all the more likely if you let your ego get in the way of your judgement. We all know that's wrong but I can freely admit that it's happened to me before too, only the consequences were never so serious. Partly because I always managed to get out of a sticky situation on my own somehow, partly because I was plain lucky. Our ego often gets us in trouble. There's plenty of opportunity for that in the mountains. Everyone wants to complete the climb and get back home a "winner". I don't think anyone (males in particular) is totally immune to that.

Be scared and stay off the rock if you can't be responsible for yourself.

When I started climbing there was no cell phones, walkie talkies or PLBs being carried by climbers;we were on our own.
The climbing community has always held a self rescue ethic that means you got yourself into the situation so get yourself out of it. It is an ethic that I hold very highly as a climber. Just because things go sour does not mean you are going to die and it does not mean you should put others in danger to come get you. Sometimes you have to suck it up and put up with a little misery.
I have climbed for years in Yosemite Valley and have watched a "new guard" of climbers who do not take responsibilty for themselves.
I have broken my hand leading a climb with a partner who was not skilled enough to lead the rest of the climb. Did I cry for help and a rescue? Hell no I carried on the best I could (pain) and finished the climb and descended under my own power.

Climbing is a risky and unpredictable undertaking even on the "easy" routes; you HAVE TO BE responsible for yourself.
The fact that you are upset by my attitude means you know nothing about climbing and should probably not comment on what climbers do. The potential "embarrasment" I expressed would be the same if I had to be rescued under almost any circumstances; the embarrasment in not being responsible for myself and causing others to get in harms way to bail me out.
I have work SAR and been involved in many rescues; most are people who had little experience and did not plan for the worst.
We volunteer to go into harms way but them who created the situation that put folks like me in harms way.

Vic and Sasha did exactly that; they caused others to get in harms way because they did not start early enough, moved slow, didn't turn back, used too long a rope, did't bring enough survival gear and kept moving when they should have stopped.
I WOULD BE EMBARRASED IF I DID ALL THOSE THINGS WRONG you would probably be too.

I am an experienced climber, mountaineer, SAR volunteer and outdoorsman who has NEVER needed a rescue because I am responsible for my own actions and with a little good luck have never been in such a situation to cause others to come get me. If for some reason someone was going to die I would certainly call for help but short of that I would extract myself from the situation under my own power.

The evidence that they were not up to the climb is in the story.
THEY NEEDED TO BE RESCUED ON ONE OF THE EASIEST CLIMBS IN THE VALLEY. It is a cakewalk.
Hell the elite climbers free solo Royal Arches at dusk and don't epic.
This guy had almost all day and screwed it up. Yea that's 30 years of experience for ya. Oh and climbing Everest means nothing; it is a trade route for rich elitists to get ferried up by high paid guides and has nothing to do with rock climbing.
Everest is 99% a snow slog and is no longer considered to be anything special by the climbing community these days.

This forum often critiques other peoples mishaps and sometimes the citique is harsh. This process helps others from making the same mistakes.

As far as "holier than thou" look at your post and try not to miss the hypocricy.


Oh and the first time I climbed Royal Arches I started before dawn, researched the climb and descent and was prepared to have difficulties finding North Dome Gully. Because of that I had no problem. Vic should have done a bit more preplanning and research.
North Dome Gully has a long history of epics. Vic should have known about it and planned for it. Obviously he didn't.

Billym,

I've seen the term "epic" used in several places regarding this story. Could you please define what it means in this context?

Thanks.
-Blast

Hi Blast,
To a climber an epic is when things go wrong and keep going wrong so that you are not going to finish the climb under normal circumstances, may need to bail or in worst cases get rescued.

Some examples would be getting off route and having to spend the night in a hanging belay, dropping a rope or your rack and not being able to go up or down, an injury that makes it impossible to continue, a major weather change and you are dressed for summer and suddenly it is winter. As you can see an epic is when things go so bad you wish you were anywhere but there but as soon as you are safe again you are bragging about it at the nearest bar. The possiblitiy of an epic is part of the allure of alpinism but you must work like hell to avoid one or life will get hard real fast.

Lucky for me I have only experienced minor epics such as running out of water, a broken hand, off route etc.
Some climbing epics have taken lives like the guys that got frozen solid in the middle of El Captian a few years ago. It stormed so hard their lines were encased in ice and they were stuck for days. Some died most self rescued and some were airlifted off the rock.
Those were true epics.

billym, I really don't like your condescending attitude. I understand and share your ethic of self rescue, but if your life, and more importantly the life of a loved one is in real daner, it is foolish and irresponsible not to consider asking for help. We weren't there so we can't know exactly what it was like, but it sounds like his son was suffering from hypothermia, and with the change in weather, he very well could have died without assistance.

Sure this guy made some mistakes, but he also did some things right. He had the sense not to attempt a climb in adverse conditions, eventually decided to shelter for the night, and he brought at least some survival gear(mylar blanket, garbage bags, ponchos, heat packs, headlamp and flashlight-thats more than many people bring). He was also able to let go of his ego and call for help when he thought it was necessary, and that may have saved the life of his son.

Your arrogant attitude may be acceptable in some climbing circles, but I don't think it's appropriate on this forum. True, sometimes criticism here is brutally honest, as it should be, but its also constructive.
I really hope your 'involvement in many rescues' was just bragging and exageration, and that you are not an official SAR member. If I needed rescue and knew that you would be the one coming for me, I'd probably avoid calling for help even if I needed it.

I am sorry that you feel that way.
I guess the way I was taught to climb was in a very traditional way
and that included an ethic of responsibilty to oneself and others. This includes one's climbing partner, other climbers and even the SAR folks who may one day need to rescue you. That said I was taught to do everything to avoid getting into bad situations by proper training and planning. The ultimate failure of this ethic is to get so deeply in trouble that someone else needs to come save you. It is not like I wouldn't call an ambulance if someone was having a heart attack. It means that when I choose to go climbing or do any other outdoor activity I am not expecting to get bailed out and I am planning on doing everything to not get into trouble.
Too many folks feel they can "dial 911" and have someone come get them. This was certainly the case with Vic and his son.
Rememer the guy who was saved by using a PLB recently in Texas? I think he was in Big Bend; everyone praised him for having the foresight to bring a PLB. I held my toungue then; I thought he was a fool for climbing into a situation where he got stuck. Never climb what you can't downclimb or at least rappel; he had no rope. Lucky the PLB made up for his mistake.

So if I got too high on my horse I sincerely apologize. That is not what I want my contributions here at ETS to be.
I was just trying to convey the notion that if you contibute to your demise and cannot get yourself out you have failed to be responsible for yourself. That would embarrass me.

Vic did exactly that. He failed to climb Royal Arches in a manner that allowed him and his son a successful finish. He got caught out and still made matters worse.

Again I wan't to say sorry for coming off as condescending that was not my objective.

As for SAR work; I used to volunteer with the San Mateo County Sherriff's office. They have a mountain rescue unit for local steep terrain and mutual aid call outs. I worked numerous searches on Mt Shasta for lost climbers.
I don't volunteer any more because you have to be able to drop what you are doing and miss work. I don't have that luxury.

Is that what you said to Middendorf when he and his Valley friends got plucked from Half Dome? Should they have refused the helicopter rescue and allowed themselves to die on the wall in the spirit of personal responsibility?

Did you express similar disdain to Russ Walling's face when he and Erikson got plucked from Native Son due to poor decisions regarding basic storm gear?

Should Takeda and Perrin have refused escape on Epperson's rope when they got thrashed on Sunkist?

All were Valley hardmen (most with extensive YOSAR time) and they all would have died (their words, not mine) without outside rescue.

You elitists are tough guys until it's your life on the line.

Billy

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually, I agree with you that people who call in SAR because they couldn't be bothered to prepare properly are a menace to themselves and others. I'm just not convinced that Vic fell into this category. Yes, he made mistakes; but calling for SAR when his son began suffering from hypothermia wasn't one of them.

On the other hand, people who refuse to call in SAR because of an overly macho atttitude may be just as bad. I remember a case some years ago when a group of adventurers were trying to reach the North Pole unassisted (i.e. no resupply from aircraft). One of the group fell ill and was forced to turn back; in an attempt to maintain the "integrity" of the adventure, he refused to call for an airlift evacuation and struck out on his own to return to base. When it became apparent he was overdue, Canadian SAR had to go out and find him; it cost us Canadian taxpayers over $500,000 (about $400K US) to satisfy his personal code of honour. ;-) The kicker is, he wasn't even a Canadian taxpayer :-(

Laurence Gonzales, in his excellent book "Deep Survival", tells the story of a US Army Ranger who died on a civilian whitewater rafting expedition, after he fell in the water and just laughed at the civilian guide who tried to rescue him. Gonzales makes a convincing case that it was his Ranger survival training that killed him; because Rangers are so deeply indoctrinated with the notion that having to be rescued is the worst form of failure, he could not bring himself to accept assistance when it was offered. (He also probably didn't realize the danger he was in until it was too late.) Minutes later he was swept round a bend in the river, pinned under a rock, and drowned.

Again, I agree with you that if you're going to indulge in adventures - whether it be climbing a mountain, trekking to the North Pole, or flying an airplane - you should take responsibility for your own actions. Where we apparently differ is that I think that includes admitting when you've screwed up and being prepared to say "Uh, guys, I need some help here."

I agree totally. I never implied that calling for help was totally out of the question and I think there is a difference between a guy fumbling up and down Royal Arches and the "Valley Hardmen" mentioned in a previous post. The "hardmen" Glockaroo mentions are not weekend warriors and are in the business of pushing the limits of alpinism. Almost every climber and route mentioned are at the top of the difficulty scale not to mention grave V-VI big wall climbs. Comparing that to a novice being unpreparred on Royal Arches is like comparing a crash in NASCAR and an average driver in a car accident. They are not completely the same thing.

The point that I guess I made poorly is that if you are going to do things like rock climbing you should consider yourself on your own. Rescues are a luxury that have begun to be taken for granted. I was trying to convey a feeling that people like Vic need to take more responsiblity for themselves when undertaking risky endeavors.

Being that I am not an elite climber that is pushing the envelope of the sport I expect myself to stay out of harms way by planning and acting responsibly. If I totally failed at that or had a terrible turn of luck and someone was in danger I would call or go for help. I never said it was out of the question.
I am not too stupid to admit defeat but I still think Vic cashed it in real easily because he had the luxury of rescue.

I think I have both made my arguement and apologized for coming off as arrogant. If that doesn't satisfy everyone so be it.
Somehow we have gone from an inexperienced climber blowing a grade III climb to comparing it to rescues from grade V-VII climbs and North Pole expeditions.

And that is the crux of the biscuit, so to speak. People like Billy are willing to give the celebrities a pass because they are "cutting edge" and "pushing the limits". If Billy was truly interested in personal responsibility, not sucking up to the big dogs, then he would condemn the experts MORE than the dabblers.

Billy: who should know better about dealing with Valley weather: the old codger on the Arches or Erik Erikson? Oh, but it's OK for Erikson to take a down sleeping bag up on El Cap because his route is rated A5, not 5.7.

When Lynn Hill forgot to buckle her harness and took a terrible groundfall, nobody in the "elite" community criticized her. It was all "oh poor Lynn; best wishes sweetie". Would BillyM give the same kidglove treatment to a weekend warrior who made the same mistake? Or would the weekender be subject to Billy's snide criticism about how the weekender should stay on the couch or in the rock gym?

Why can't you see the hypocrisy you embrace, Billy?

Glockaroo,

Why the personal attack did I somehow offend you?

This is an argument like any other it has two sides. I have repeatedly tried to civily respond to your's and others somewhat personal attacks with reason. I have tried to argue my point and even was willing to admit that I had come off as arrogant and had allowed the discussion to get heated.

Now you are implying things, making generalizations and putting words in my mouth. I think you need to throttle back a bit.

It is not hypocarcy to expect average climbers to be responsible for their actions on moderate climbs but make concessions for people pushing the envelope of climbing. It is not because they are celebrities but because there is a higher danger and consequense to failure on the climbs they undertake. That does not excuse them from being self reliant it just explains why thay may need a rescue; same with solo ocean sailors and such.

When Lynn Hill fell SHE was her worst critic she was embarrased and said so. Taking a sleeping bag (synthetic) up El Cap makes sense and is considered essential gear, taking one up Royal Arches does not. The rescues you mentioned were mostly in times when the weather is impossible to completely predict so in their case it may have been more bad luck than irresponsibilty. I don't know the details of these rescues so without research so it is hard to comment. But that does not excuse them; sometime even elite climbers get rescued from their errors I would have to ask them but I bet some of them were ashamed of what happened.

Lastly what someone posts on an internet forum is not a complete snapshot of who they are so don't paint a picture of someone you don't know. You don't know anything about me other than what I post here.

Obviously I have stuck a nerve. This discussion has now turned into me defending myself from being called things like "snide" and arrogant and have had words put in my mouth.

I am a self reliant rock climber and proud of it. If my attitude of self reliance is too much for you too freakin bad dude!
I have assisited many people both on and off the rock and have no problem with who I am and what I think about this subject. Please don't try to imply that I am not understanding or compassionate to others in need. That is very insulting and you are very wrong anyway.

I would still be ashamed if I screwed up so bad as to need a rescue under the same circumstances that Vic did. I could accept the fact that I needed help but I would still be disappointed in myself.

I think it is time I bow out of the fray before I lose my temper and post a response to you that may get me tossed off ETS.
So as far as this thread goes I will no longer respond to your comments; it is a waste of time.

"Hardmen" pushing the envelope get in embarassing situations all the time, too. Just check out this story:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0512/features/tomaz_humar.html

Getting back to the original topic/situation...

When people do things like Vic did, my first question is, 'What was the hurry?' Except for ego, was there some reason that I missed that they had to finish on that same day? Did one of them have an appointment the next day to donate a kidney or something? As far as I understood, it wasn't a rescue situation until he forced it to be one.

Aren't reasonable judgment calls one of the main weapons for survival situations? How many times have you read about people who refused to re-evaluate existing conditions and change their plans, no matter what? ONWARD, no matter if the weather goes bad. ONWARD, even if hypothermia is setting in. ONWARD, even if it's getting dark and you've lost the trail. ONWARD TO THE DEATH!

All this just seems kind of stupid to me.

Try it this way: Okay, son, it looks like we're not going to make it down tonight. The sun is setting, the weather is going bad. No big deal, we've got some survival gear with us. That looks like a good place to settle in over there. It's out of the wind and there's some overhead shelter if it starts to rain. Let's see what we can scrounge for firewood. Hey, did I ever tell you story about...

Oh, Aardvark:

"The fact that he last climbed in Yosemite three decades ago doesn't mean he hasn't climbed in three decades"
If he had been climbing recently, why would this be the first time he took his son?

"..what's your evidence that this guy wasn't up to the climb?"
Putting his son into a rescue situation, maybe?

"He sounds to me like an experienced climber with 30 years experience, not some yahoo trying to relive his glory days."
Actually, he didn't say he was experienced. He just said he had done that climb 30 yrs ago. He lives less than 150 mi from Half Dome. He's never taken his son, and he didn't know his limitations. Yeah, experienced.

"Granted, he made some mistakes."
Yes, I counted at least six or eight, and some of them could have been life-altering (or ending). Maybe you would want to send your kid with him next time?

"He also had the courage to post publicly about those mistakes, and he had no problem admitting to them."
Since he was able to fall back on having someone else rescue them, he didn't have to post "I killed my son with my bad judgment", did he? It's just as easy to admit doing stupid things on the web as it is to insult people on the web, as it's so anonymous.

You criticized BillyM because he disapproved of the guy putting the two of them into a position where they HAD to be rescued. It might be a good idea to remember that there is an unending supply of idiots, and places like Yosemite are Mecca. And if Keith Lober had words with him, well... maybe he was displeased with his antics, too. Think?

Sue