expandable batons...

anyone have thoughts on expandable batons? also brands? etc?

ASP, and before you buy one, find a good instructor in Kali or Escrima.

There's few things in life more fun than watching a dojo ballerina get his a$$ kicked, after pulling out a weapon and not knowing how to use it in a real life situation.

Misanthrope

IMHO - VERY EFFECTIVE

Description MSRP
ARM F16B BATON BLK CHR $65.00
ARM F16A BATON AIRWEIGHT $77.50
ARM F21C BATON SLV CHR $70.00
ARM F21B BATON BLK CHR $70.00
ARM F21A BATON AIRWEIGHT $82.50
ARM F21F BATON FEDERAL BLK $70.00
ARM F26C BATON SLV CHR $75.00
ARM F26B BATON BLK CHR $75.00
ARM F26A BATON AIRWEIGHT $87.50

The lengths are 16, 21, 26.
The finishes are silver or black.

They have their application. They do well on windshields, windows, dogs and most two legged problems. You may run into smart asses and their dogs that SAY they can take it away from you. Drop the baton and your wallet and pull your Glock.

HAHAHAHA!!!!

Monadnock batons. they are the ASP upgraded.

Gotta go with the ASP unless you want somthing not made of metal. I taught PPCT for years and they made a composit version of the ASP real tough I have one that I have had for 15 years and it still kicks @$$, but I don't teach it anymore so I don't know if they even sell it anymore

Against some [censored] who has a knife or thinks that he's Mr Ninja-san they are reasonably effective.
A couple of points to remember:
1) Confine your blows to his extremities. That means his arms and legs. NOT HIS HEAD! Your trying to discourage him, not kill him.

2) Batons are, correctly used, none-lethal weapons. Yes you can kill someone with one, but so can anyone with a club. This has the distinct advantage to you of being able to meet an attack with maximum force. A shattered wrist or elbow joint will take the fight out of anyone real quick, and give his associates pause.

3) LEO's (except in the U.K.surprise, surprise) tend to get less upset about baton's than about knives, guns etc.

Two items:

Check your local laws. In CA a baton is a felony, handgun is only a misdemeaner.

If you get one, get some real instruction in its use, and then practice all the time. Get an old GI duffle bag, stuff it full of rags or something, then hang it in your garage as a dummy. If you don't practice you will forget how to use it effectively...

Go for the side of the knees. Start from up at your shoulder, stike down & across. Follow through. Repeat as necessary.

also remember that the baton has two ends. jabbing the butt into a thigh or shoulder drops someone real quick. I've had 2 days of baton training with our Atlantic Area boarding teams. Stay away from the head or neck unless you want a corpse on your hands. They make foam batons for training and practice, might want to look into those to keep current w/o breaking limbs.

I would stick with ASP. They were one of the first. The materials are high quality and its usually what you will see LEOs carrying. ASP had a civilian training program years ago, I would definitely check into that. Stay away from the cheap Chinese junk. This is definitely one piece of equipment you do not want to fail.

Craig.

Monadnock advantages over the ASP. They also are metal, they can be collasped by pushing a button and not having to hit it on a hard surface like the ASP. Also the polymer tip wont cut those you strike lik ethe damaged tip of the ASP. All tips on ASP's are damaged due to the fact they have to be hit on a hard surface to close.

My only question is what and or who are you going to use one on?

The police use them on unarmed but aggressive and combative persons. The bad thing about a baton is that they are light and you have to have some decent training to make them effective. The general targets are the hands/ forearms / elbows / legs / knees / shins ect...

Hit someone in the head or neck with one and you might as well shoot them as those targets may be considered using lethal force.

If someone deployed a baton against me I would shoot them.

Something to think about.

When facing someone with a knife, the issue has already escalated to a deadly force situation and I'm going to take whatever target is presented.

Truthfully I have an ASP but almost never carry it. Choices are usually whether to employ OC or a pistol.

Properly used, a baton is a less than lethal force option. If you are worried about it being light, you aren't using properly- an escrima stick is only a few ounces, and in the hands of someone who been given a few hours of instruction and then practices for a while, it starts at "ouch" and moves very quickly up to broken ribs. It isn't a club or mace, it doesn't rely brute force, but selectively applied and controlled force.

And unless they have a gun or knife, it's really hard to justify shooting to a civil jury. And in a lot of places, it's easier to carry a baton than a pistol.

The tip on my Asp is still in as good a shape as when I got it 6 years ago. I close it against a wood floor.

Too get back to my original post.

I don't know of anybody who can claim any proficiency with a baton with a couple of days training. Yes, any fool can pick up a baton and use it as a cudgel, but that is not what I would call proficiency.

If you want to learn any martial art or weapons system, seek out an experience instructor, check their credentials, and practise.
It takes weeks of intensive practise to develop the skills and muscle memory to become proficient with any type of weapon.

A baton in the hands of any experienced practitioner can be used for everything from disarms, throws, from purely defensive blocks to fatal strikes.

When I studied Kali and escrima, we would spar and train initially with rattan sticks. We then progressed to one man drills and forms with steel pipe to build up the forearms and wrists. Watching an experienced kali, escrima or arnis practitioner spar is a thing of beauty.

I would also strongly advise against carrying a baton for defensive purposes until you reach a level where you know what you are doing. In my experience, flashing a weapon can often escalate a situation, even when that is not your intent. And if you flash a weapon, you damn well better know how to use it.

M

Winners drip, losers gush. - Fred Degerberg
If it has an edge, go for the meat. If it doesn't, go for the bone.

Well put. When I was trained in the PR-24, it was by a Monodoc instructor, who worked us, and beat the snot out of us, for two long eight hour days. And that was just the bare minumum before I could carry it on duty. We had a hanging dummy (we put Sgts chevrons on it) that I worked on, on my own time, for at least an hour a day for months before I really felt that I was pretty proficient with it. Plus practicing the take downs and come alongs on another officer. After that I whacked that dummy a little bit before every shift, and really worked on it once a week or so. For about twenty years.

And you are right on about flashing a weapon, any weapon. I have carried a firearm off duty, and now retired, since 1971. Luckily I never had to draw it, because I had made up my mind that it would not come out unless I fired it. No waving it around, no "stop police" stuff, it would be drawn and fired only if the badguy had already reached the point where lethal force was justified, ie to save a life. Please remember that we are talking off duty here. On duty I made a jillion felony arrests where I drew and aimed my weapon at a suspect, but I never had any intention of making an off duty arrest. Doing that is almost guaranteed to bite you in the butt eventually.

If you "flash" a weapon, no matter what it might be, and are not justified both legally and morally to use it, AND ready and willing to use it, you stand a really good chance of having the bad guy take it away from you, and then you are in deep doodoo...

I have to disagree with some of the opinions posted here. While there is something to the fancier stuff with a baton, at the core it is just a stick once it is deployed.

There is great value in a stick, and it doesn't require a lot of training or practice to use. It gives you reach, and a hard striking surface.

I won't dispute that training is good, but a baton is still useful even in relatively untrained hands. Humans have been using sticks since the opposable thumb came about.

I have trained with some very good instructors, in both cane and stick. The most useful for the street can be learned in about 2 hours. These are the items a civilian is most likely to be able to use. Block. Strike. This is instinctive. If you have any training, including some basic hand to hand, you understand your targets. Strike the knee. Strike the elbow. Strike the hand holding the knife. For that matter, if he has a knife, or a gun (both constituting lethal force and therefore justifying a lethal response) hit him in the head or neck.

All the rest is fancy stuff, but you don't really need it to defend yourself, and I think it is a mistake to discount the baton just because you haven't trained in it.

Instinctive?? Like the hay maker punch that every dumb-arsed bar brawler thinks is going to lay out his opponent?

We were discussing proficiency. If you honestly feel that you can develop muscle memory and technique within two hours, I bow down to your mastery, Sifu.

Where's your free hand? Open stance, closed stance? How do you strike at the off knee on an advancing foe? Or are you striking at his leading leg? Strike the knife hand? Do you think your opponents going to extend his lead that much if you have a stick or baton in your hand?

I'm also assuming that your opponent is the aggressor, which assumes he/she is no stranger to sudden violence. You seem to have automatically assumed superior training or technique over your adversary. I've got almost 25 years of training under my belt, and I would never be that arrogant. I've had my arse kicked by the best!!!

Years ago, while studying under Fred Degerberg, I attended a demonstration done by Prof. Remy Presas. Every time someone thought they had an opening, they were trapped. It wasn't until afterwards that we realized every opening we saw was a trap.

I agree that any improvised weapon would be better than empty hand when the women and children go to bed, but nothing else you posted makes any sense to me.

You feed me someone with two hours of training, and even now, middle-aged, overweight and out-of-training, I'll eat their lunch.

M

A baton is serious but a gun ain't? Does that mean that taking him alive is an offence? Whereas shooting him comes under garbage disposal?

Me like.......

OK who the heck are you? Your flaming sarcasm is misplaced and unnecessary. I don't understand your venom. The question was asked about Batons. My position is that they are useful, not that they make you superman. Just like any other weapon. It's not brain surgery. Most people know how to move, and they know how to swing a stick. You sound like one of these types that believes if you don't train it every day and become some sort of ninja you might as well hang it up.

I'm not talking about being able to take on a grand master like yourself. You make things way too complicated. Stances, what bull. In the street - however you are standing is how you fight, you don't have time to worry about stances. You might have lots of sport "fight" training but your comments show a strong lack of street experience. I'd bet you are a black belt point sparrer, and you probably have picture perfect Kata. Goody for you.

Yes, I can teach someone to keep their off hand in front of them as a guard in two hours. It's not that hard. I'm not worried about some sort of surgical precision strike against a specific leg. Hit whichever one is reachable. Street confrontations aren't planned out. And it doesn't take that long to defang the snake. If someone can hit a baseball, they can hit an extended hand/arm as it comes towards them. It doesn't have to look pretty, it just has to work. Hit the hand or arm with a metal stick, and chances are he will drop it.

You assume that the aggressor has much more skill than he most likely does. Look at the statistics. Most bad guys are not trained, and are not that skilled. Again, I didn't say you would dance with a grand master, I said the baton was a useful tool.

And yes go ahead, throw names around. I don't care who you have trained with. That's not the point. You are totally correct, if this person is going up against a grand master with "almost 25 years of training under their belt", then they are in for a bad time. But they will have a better chance, small as it may be, with a baton, than with just their hands. Just because they haven't trained for 25 years doesn't mean they should lay down and die because the other guy might be better than they are.


"Combatives is 90% attitude and 10% technique"---Kelly McCann/Jim Grover

I was refering to the fact that the mere possession of a baton is a felony, while the possession of a handgun is a misd. That is just how the law is, go figure. When you get into the use of either, then the stakes can go up, way up...

I have had some escrima training as well as other martial arts training over the years and I like sticks. I still take private martial arts lessons a few times a week. Never used a baton though.

I think I am partial to having a magazine when I am out and about town. If I ever get attacked (only been attacked once in my life and the assailants weren't trained, just stoned or drunk and the confrontation ended very quickly), it would take about as long to deploy a baton as it would to roll up a magazine (oh, and I didn't have a magazine that one time, but it wasn't necessary). And while the magazine is shorter than a baton, it can still hit pretty hard and give a little extra reach.

Plus, 99.99999% and hopefully 100% of the time, it will be used for its intended purpose...reading material. It can also be tinder, insulation and it is PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. friendly and shouldn't provoke anything. Sometimes having a weapon can provoke a confrontation too. Plus, having a magazine does not make me feel too aggresive or cocky. And I would be worried about problems with the law.

I agree with the sentiment that attitude is key. Just be aware and stay out of situations that could be dangerous. My only confrontation was because I didn't follow that advice that one time and went down a dark alley late at night (younger and stupider then). I avoid or walk away from everything else so far. My instructor is more aggessive than I am and has had many confrontations, armed and otherwise.

Thinking that the people that carry a baton or any other weapon are either ready, willing and able to use it or have it and may not be as ready and willing and able both scare me.

He's been around a while, and he's a known value here.

Training brings with it proper attitude AND technique, which beats simple brute force and bravado every time. Your initial post gave the impression of discounting that. Your counter point continues that.

Example, stances. Stance is important, as how you hold yourself determines the the areas about your body into which you can block and strike, limits your visibility and profile, can reduce your mobility when it comes time to move your feet. What you are describing works well enough, if there is one attacker, you have a heavy club, and you take the time to beat them down.

And with a telescoping baton, you're going to be there for a while. Hope you get mugged by a narcoleptic, because one of the trade offs for the portability is a loss of brute mass. Of course, in that amount of time, the other guy who didn't notice has shoved a junk knife in your kidney because you were too busy going caveman on the one you did see.

If instead, you had broken mook A's knee cap then kicked him in the head, you'd have heard mook B coming. Anger isn't attitude, it's desperation. A clear mind survives.

Apparently, my post came across as a personal attack. I did not intend it as such. That stated, I simply disagree with a number of your comments and conclusions.

"The most useful for the street can be learned in about 2 hours. These are the items a civilian is most likely to be able to use. Block. Strike. This is instinctive."

When I taught self-defense classes, we would train over and over on a number of simple, but effective, techniques. The reasoning was that in a high stress situation, with the resulting adrenaline dump, training and muscle memory will hopefully overcome the inherent panic response.

"All the rest is fancy stuff, but you don't really need it to defend yourself, and I think it is a mistake to discount the baton just because you haven't trained in it."

"Stances, what bull. In the street - however you are standing is how you fight, you don't have time to worry about stances. You might have lots of sport "fight" training but your comments show a strong lack of street experience. I'd bet you are a black belt point sparrer, and you probably have picture perfect Kata. Goody for you."

My training and personal experience lead me to a contrary conclusion. Stance is all important. A punch thrown without proper body mechanics involves nothing more than the muscles of the arm. A proper punch involves the entire body mass.

I have fought sport. My street experience is more than some, less than others. I will leave the posting of street experience to the mall ninjas and children. I'm not posting as a means of ego masturbation.

I have never fought point, but I am friends with some very good point fighters, who are well aware of the limitations of point sparring. My belt is worn to hold up my pants, and yes, today it is black. Tomorrow it might be brown. I never did Kata, as I never studied the traditional Japanese arts. However, my forms in the other arts always left something to be desired.


"You assume that the aggressor has much more skill than he most likely does. Look at the statistics. Most bad guys are not trained, and are not that skilled."

Once again, I disagree. Underestimating your opponent, in the ring or in the alley, can get you killed. I would also suggest you talk to any corrections officer about what the inmates are practising in the exercise yard.

I did previously concede that any weapon would be an improvement over empty hand techniques. However, I still believe my initial advice was valid: Don't carry a weapon until you have reached a level of proficiency. I have witnessed more than a few occasions were individuals have pulled a knife and literally had it taken a way from them in seconds. That can be some bad juju.

M

Another thing about stance. With a good one (what some call a position of advantage) you can not only strike with more power, but you can take a blow/shove/whatever and have a chance of keeping your balance. With a poor stance, a light shove can land you on your fanny. And once on the ground you are more than likely dead meat...

Another thing that can work is something as simple as a Mini-maglite, with a whole bunch of keys attached to the ring. It can be used as a kuboton or yawara (other tools that really require training to be fully effective), and a whack across the eyes with a large bunch of keys might discourage some badguys (might make some madder too, a possibility you always have to keep in mind)...

I think proper body mechanics is extremely important in pretty much anything you do. I have been taught both sides. The more traditional side tend to focus on stance and form. The more applied type teaching tell me not to worry about the exact stance and form but to make sure the proper body mechanics are employed. When they are, the form and stance is usually pretty solid. It may not win a forms competition (never been in one), but it should help you get out of your situation if you are unfortunate enough to get into one in the first place.

OBG, I tend to agree with you. I would rather be able to use a non-weapon as a weapon than rely on carrying an actual weapon around. If I am in a parking lot, my keys are in my hand where they can be used to open my car and to give me a little edge I hope I won't need. I think if a badguy were to attack me or especially my family, the keys will be in the eyes and throat, not a whack across. Call 911 for police and ambulance as I drive off to get my family out of there. Don't get me wrong, I detest violence. I just rather stop it as fast as I can, if I can, than have it delivered on me or my family.

My teacher has had so many "encounters" in his life, it is incredible. He has been attacked by guys wielding knives, bats and bottles. He has been jumped by a homeless guy while jogging. Been accosted while trying to watch a game with his family at a stadium. Been jumped by a couple of punks in a public bathroom at a park while he was trying to do his business. I cannot imagine a more vulnerable position than with your pants down like that. Funny thing is he has been the one to walk out of those situations, not the assailants. He has helped the police as a citizen a few times too. I have had one encounter and I think it was one too many even though I was unscathed.

My point in mentioning all this is that as a young man, many many years ago, he was one of those guys that would look for trouble. And he often found it, or it found him. It also seemed to have followed him over the decades until recently. I wish you all peace and hope you all have good intentions and hope we all stay safe. I think the saying "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" can be so very true. So be careful if you choose to carry a weapon and know your intentions as well as limitations when you do. I hope it gives you peace of mind and you never have to use it to defend yourself and heaven forbid, ever use it in anger.

Wow, remind me to never go anywhere with your teacher!!! But you brought up a good point. You are indeed wide open, so to speak, when standing at a urinal taking care of business. Which is why I always try to go into a stall, hopefully one that has a latch on the door. I once knew an on-duty LEO who got the snot beat out of him in a gas station restroom, caught with his hands full at the wrong time...

Reminds me of a story I was told long ago.

MAC/SOG troops in Vietnam, who had been doing reconnaissance work over the border, would be called in for debriefing by Misters Smith and Jones, civilians in Hawaiian shirts.

After being asked questions about terrain and enemy movement, a soldier was asked about urination and defecation. The soldier replied he had done neither. The soldier was asked again, in an incredulous tone, "You spent 10 days on mission and didn't relieve yourself once?"

To which the soldier replied "I had the [censored] scared out of me, and the last place in the world were I want to get caught with my pants around my ankles is f**king North Vietnam!!"


M

Again, it seems that we are at two extremes.

To me, there is one stance - where your feet are under you and you are in balance to move. Your body knows how to do this, if you let it. Especially if you have any athleticism. Unless you are going to train all the time, worrying about that complicates matters. I have seen people hesitate, and leave themselves vulnerable. When we talk about it, they feel their stance was "wrong." I have even seen them look down at their feet trying to figure out what is wrong. This will get them hurt.

You do not need to go to the extreme of having a "front stance" or a "back stance", etc. You need to be in balance, and solid. Anything beyond that is extra, and if you want to be fancy, fine. My point was that you don't need all of that to be effective. We should not discourage someone from having a weapon for legitimate defense, and using it at need, simply because they haven't gone to that level of training. If they have played any kind of contact or movement sport they have enough stance to get by.

Sure, someone with more training will be better. But that is not to say that the average person should be discouraged from having something rather than nothing.

It did, but part of that may have been me.



I never said you shouldn't practice. But the knowledge portion is not that much. Practice can be done without formality, in front of a mirror.



I agree about a proper punch, but you don't need complicated stances to do that. And a punch with the arm is better than nothing.



These comments on my part were not entirely appropriate. My perception of a personal attack raised my hackles, and I responded. I have encountered entirely too many "strip mall black belts" who thought they were something special. My comments were hasty.



I agree, you should not underestimate your opponent. But, that said, what are you to do? Have a weapon and try to use it as best you can, or? What? Submit?



Again, your statements have some truth to them, but what is the alternative? Training takes time, and not everyone has that time. And even if they did, it doesn't happen overnight. What is this person to do NOW? My position is that if the choice is to learn some quick basics, and fight, or submit because the bad guy might be better than you, I choose to fight.

Not my point. Training is great. My point is that training takes time, and until that time is in, a person needs to do something, unless you advocate they just adopt the position of "OK, I'm not trained and you MIGHT be, so I'll just lay down and die now." And agressive response, even if it is not the optimal response, can be effective. It is certainly better than doing nothing.



Again, you are complicating matters for a beginner. These are great things to learn, if you have a good teacher and the time to learn it, but what about TONIGHT?



Sorry, I disagree with this totally. A good ASP or Monadnoc has plenty of mass. Even an untrained person of reasonable athleticism can swing it pretty hard.



Again, agree and disagree. This can certainly happen, to even the trained. But, aggressively engaging the opponent you do see is better than not engaging them and looking around for someone else. Deal with the problem at hand.



I don't know where that comes from. Doesn't quite make sense. All I am saying is do the best you can with what you have. If you can do that, great, that's the ultimate goal. I don't want to stand in a fight, I want to hurt them and get away.

Guys, what I am saying here is you don't have to become a live in monk at the dojo and become a grand master in order to improve your chances of survival right now. Having a baton is better than not having one. Having one and a few hours to get the basics is better still. Sure, if you want to become a grand master, do so. I never said not to train. What I said was that you shouldn't NOT get and carry a baton because some arbitrary standard of proficiency has not yet been achieved.

I never said that one shouldn't train. And I'm not talking about having an attitude and dueling. I'm talking about defending yourself when you have no other choice.

I disagree with the statement that one should not have a baton until some arbitrary level of proficiency is attained. Training takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. So, what is a person to do TONIGHT?

Having a baton is better than not having one. Having one and a few hours of instruction is better still. Practicing what you have been taught can be done in front of a mirror, as time permits. Getting more training is even better, but that doesn't help right NOW. Not everyone can drop everything and become a live in monk at the dojo.

The position being implied here is that until you have achieved some undefined proficiency, you should just surrender. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that. "Gee Mr. Bad Guy, I'm not yet sufficiently trained, and well, you MIGHT be, so I'll just lay down and die now." Doesn't work for me. Might he get beat? Sure. I might get beat even after training. But if you don't try with everything you can, you will definitely be beat. Sometimes an agressive response, even if it isn't the best technique in existence, can be effective. It is definitely better than giving up.

Even for the trained, there is always one that's better. And anyone can have a bad day. My point is, take whatever you have, and defend yourself as best you can, and never give up. The only sure thing is that if you give up, you lose.

It did come across as an attack, part of that may have been my perception. Some of my comments may have been inappropriate and hasty because of that. No offence was intended.

I can agree to debate civilly.

Where to start?

The title of this web site is Equipped to Survive.. Doug's trademarked logo is "Chance favors only the prepared and equipped."

I like my toy..equipment as much as the next guy, but knowing how to operate it properly, whether it be a flint rod, min-14 or collapsable baton, is equally important.

I would suggest, without meaning insult, that you read the ETS section on Urban Survival.

I have no idea what your marial experience is, either training, ring, or street, but your posts have left me scratching my head.
("To me, there is one stance - where your feet are under you and you are in balance to move. Your body knows how to do this, if you let it. Especially if you have any athleticism. Unless you are going to train all the time, worrying about that complicates matters." Practisng martial arts in front of a mirror, a substitue for training? What is this, the Karate Kid? Kata or forms, maybe.)

You insulted me without knowing anything about me.

You keep inferring that other posters are advocating submission, which I cannot find in any of their posts.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

M

"it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." - Billy S.

"...take whatever you have, and defend yourself as best you can, and never give up. The only sure thing is that if you give up, you lose..."

Very true. My main worry is that many people, as soon as they get their hands on some "tool" (for lack of a better word here) they think that they are safe, and can take on the world. When I was in the service I saw several fights between Marines right out of boot camp, and a sailor with a tad more experience. While the Marine was trying to remember how to use some of that fancy stuff he just learned, the sailor ended the fight with one punch...

Or as Colonel Jeff Cooper said, "Owing a gun no more makes you armed than owning a piano makes you a musician."

Ya had to love the Colonel. I got to watch him shoot one time. He just kind of pointed his 1911 in the general direction of a gong out about 100 yards, and hit it ever time...

Okay whatever. a steel bar smacked up against someones head can be lethal force.

True. And that is why you DO NOT make head and spine strikes unless you have every legal right and obligation to simply shoot them.

If you have a knife, I can stop you just as easily by breaking or dislocating your knee and backing up as I can by caving in your skull. Easier, really, becuase your skull is a crash helmet.

Unless you are being paid to kill people or keep the peace, your mission is to keep you and yours alive. That means disable and retreat immediately when you are out and about. If you have a difference of opinion, I'd advise you to keep a good criminal defense and a good civil lawyer on retainer. Becuase you're going to need the latter and probably the former- you've just made a public statement as to your intent to end the life another in a public and recorded forum.

Oops.

OBG,

He was actually sitting in a stall doing his business. Unfortunately, the public park bathroom he was at didn't have doors on the stalls. So the two pun, err troublemakers came in smoking dope and decided they wanted to make trouble.

One peered over one wall while the other walked right in. We could never figure out why the guy that was looking over the wall tried to get at him in the stall after the first one was already decorating the stall floor. My teacher walked out of there after he finished up with those two guys still unconscious in that bathroom stall.

Spooky stuff, but a happy ending.

I guess he started from a different stance than usual that time...

Self defence class British Style can be viewed here at Youtube

Porcelan horse stance to be exact.

I am happy that you and I agree that a steel baton, such as an ASP, could easily be used as a deadly weapon, especially if used against targets such as the head / neck.

I like most common sense people, would have no problem shooting to stop anyone attempting to use a baton against me. Its the dont bring a club, rock, knife, etc. to a gun fight.

Carrying a baton concealed in Oklahoma is a crime. Carrying a firearm concealed with a permit is not.

Have a good day.

I really don't like hearing the old saw about how if you don't have extensive training in any particular weapon, then you are more likely to have that weapon taken away from you and used against you, or variations thereof.

This is nothing but the same sort of fear-mongering that anti-weapon advocates of every kind use to try to keep the rest of the people too scared to defend themselves.

You think you can grab my stick from me? When I'm swinging it at you full force at at its full reach? I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds are against you, no matter what my level of training is. A stick is a simple weapon. You swing it, and if it hits, you're going to be hurt, no matter what body part gets hit.

The bottom line is, every fight is a potentially deadly situation, no matter if weapons are involved or not. Better to have a weapon than not, period. Even better to have training in that weapon, but when push comes to shove, you use whatever you have available, period. Whether that's a gun, a knife, a stick, a bucket of water, a handful of sand, a stick of bubblegum, or just your wise-ass mouth, every weapon you can employ gives you an advantage.

I was looking for some batons today and didnt find any asp...
These available batons are no name so i am not sure is it smart to buy them even i must say that they look and feel solid...
As far as the all training stuff goes, the bastards who attacking you when you going home from club,disco or whatever are (in my experience) drunk,druged and preety stupid.Bunch of retarded kids 18-25 years old and they wanna have some action.
On them i would have no mercy and understanding.
You have to show them hell.
Scenario is like this...
I am going home with my girlfriend and two of them come to us and asking a cigarette.
I said i dont smoke, he said to me you are gonna start to smoke!!!
My girl pull me away and i stayed cool only because of her...and i wasnt drunk at that time so we left...
I hate those troublemakers...
Sometimes i wish i am in the middle of forest with them,there is no cops and law and no witneses...

Ladies and Gents, Yeti, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but,

I have ASP batons,
they are illegal for a civilian to carry here in NY
In my limited experience, they loosen as they are being swung and can collapse on a thrust. I've heard that the Manodnoc is better in this regard though I have no experience with them.

Not germane to your question, but what about a walking stick or cane?
There was a time when a well dressed gentleman would never dream of going out without his walking stick, and they knew how to use them. There are autopsy reports to attest to their effectiveness. It is said that sometimes their sticks had metal tips and a glancing blow to the neck with the tip, even through an overcoat collar, would lacerate the carotid artery.
They, are the only weapon that doesn't need to be accessed or drawn to be used, they are already in your hands.
They are legal anywhere.
They are not viewed by other people or the constabulary as weapons.
They won't collapse on you at an inopportune time.
I like a good strong piece of hickory. I even get compliments on mine.
See www.canemasters.com.
Regards, Jim

Good idea. I have even seen canes that probably could be spun like a PR-24, but even without that, a cane would be a great jabbing impliment...

OBG, Yea, and I think that any structure hit with a 36" piece of solid hickory moving at speed is gonna be dysfunctional if not broken. It also extends your "sphere of influence" over other contact weapons. I'm not convinced I'd choose to confront an edged weapon or gun with my stick, but if I can deliver a disabling blow before they can access their weapon and get off the x, maybe I'd have a chance and that's why I also carry other tools. Regards, Jim

I'm not sure how much speed one can get up swinging a cane (seems that the extra length would slow it down), might have to try with my mother-in-laws. But I still remember my old "three from the ring," and I know (from experience) that jabbing a bad guy in the vicinity of the solar plexis a couple of times with something long, skinny, and fast will really take the fight out of him/her. Then, while he/she is flat in the gutter gasping for breath, you can boogie on down the road...

Aloha OBG,

While it might not seem to be moving very fast, the tip is moving at a pretty mighty clip. And the longer the cane, the faster the velocity at the tip, assuming the cane is swung at the same speed. The velocity and therefore, force at the tip is much greater than at your hand.

If you can make contact, you will probably get the job done and buy yourself time for your next action whther it be follow up or flee.

In theory that seems correct, at least up to a point. But I can still remember (and from time to time practice) swinging my old 26" wooden baton (it is now a tire thumper for our motorhome), and comparing that with swinging something like a half of a broomstick. Seems that the 26incher impacts harder than the longer stick. Might just be my impression tho, I have not been able to talk my wife into letting me test on her...

Both mass and velocity come into play here.

Think of it this way. If you hit somebody with a switch, that sucker (the switch) will be moving awefully fast, it will hurt a lot, but a stinging type of hurt. Hit someone with a bat, which would move slower relatively, and something might break.

My favorite "urban weapon" for exactly the same reasons.
If your in a situation that requires a weapon, odds are you will not be able to bring the weapon to bear unless your well practiced and the weapon is carried in some sort of combat rig.
The Unbreakable Walking-Stick Umbrella, and Cold Steel's walking sticks.

CMC fnord!

And, maybe best of all, as you walk down the street, cane in hand, you are not, in the eyes of the law, carrying a "weapon." Use it to defend yourself, and chances are the most law enforcement would say to you is "good job." Carry an ASP, and in some jurisdictions you could be arrested simply for having it.

Don't go looking for a cane sword tho, or all bets are off...

I had never really thought about the unbreakable umbrella or walking stick. This is truly an exellent idea for the urban environment. Thanks CMC.

Craig.