I need a compass

I have a book on how to use a compass thanks to "martinfocazio" it is kind of old but good. I just need to a good compass now. Here is what I want a quallity compass for less than $100 and suggestions from you all about want makes a good compass. Thanks

Oh, I'm looking forward to this thread! I too have been thinking of purchasing a good compass. I own several of the cheaper ones, but have never owned a better one. On another post here at ETS, the Brunton 8099 Eclipse was talked about favorably, as was the Brunton 15TDCL. This is not the first time I have heard positive talk about the 15TDCL.
I looked at the Eclipse and from what I can tell, this would be a very good overall compass to have.
I may have to just breakdown and get me one of the 8099's. I don't think a person could go wrong with it.

smitty

There are more opinions on compasses than there are compasses ... maybe.

Here is my two cents worth ...

I much prefer so-called baseplate or orienteering style compasses over the lensatic compass. Lensatics do fine sighting bearings, but I just don't think they work with a map as well.

The most important feature is adjustable declination, where you can pre-adjust a compass so that the compass set at 0 degrees points to true north rather than magnetic north.

Baseplate compasses tend to be broken down into mirrored aqnd non-mirrored. Those where a mirror are usually held at chest level or higher while lining up the compass with the target while "boxing" the needle using a reflection of the capsule in the mirror. Those without a mirror are typically held near the waist while pointing the compass in the target's direction and then boxing the needle while looking down on the compass.

My favorite non-mirrored compass is the Suunto M-3 Leader with the non-Global needle. It is a high quality compass for a very low price, though the Brunton 8010G and 8097 are also very nice compasses.

My favorite mirrored compass is the Brunton 8099. I also have the Brunton 15TDCL, which is the "original" Ranger compass by Silva (Silva owns Brunton), but I find I llke the 8099 better. My son got a Brunton 8084G for Christmas - it is nice, but not nearly as nice as the others.

Like I mentioned in another ETS thread, I keep comparing the 8099 with the 15TDCL essentially trying to convince myself that the legendary 15TDCL is better than the 8099, but the 8099 just works better for me.

I would have thought that Suunto's mirrored compass is similar in quality to the M-2 Leader - which is good, but I've read it is not. I don't own one though, so I just don't know.

The Compass Store

good luck

20

My wife just got me one of those 8099's for Christmas. I really like it so far, but have only been practicing/playing with it indoors. No realworld outdoor experience yet. I expect that to all be positive once I get out and try it out while hiking. If you happen to have a "Sportsman's Warehouse" in your area, my wife found the 8099 for $56 there. That's a really good price for this compass. It blows away online prices that I found (which are typically around $75). It comes with a lanyard attached to the compass, that threads through a stack of informational cards, that then threads through a rubber boot that protects the bottom. I found I like it better if I unthread that lanyard from all the paraphenalia (sp?) and just put the cards in the boot and attach the boot to the compass (with the lanyard still attached to the compass). It's not like that boot is going to slip off or the cards are going to fall out- it stretches into place very snugly.

Another one I researched that really intrigued me was the "Brunton Nexus 54LU Combi". Finding one locally (Denver area) to handle in person was impossible though. It's intriguing because it's a baseplate compass - good for map work - and also a direct sighting compass - good for getting bearings. Here's a webpage that gives you an idea of how it operates:

http://www.silva.se/outdoor/products/prof_com54.htm

Note that this compass is actually made by Silva over in Europe. Much different than Silva in the USA. Brunton markets it under their Nexus line of compasses. Someday I would like to see one of these compasses in person to judge if it's as nice in-hand as it appears on paper. The best online price I found for this model ($60) is about halfway down the following webpage:

http://kooters.com/reccomp.html

Kooter's also carries the 8099 (for $75) and the 15tdcl (for $41). S&H is included in that price.

Does anyone have an opinion on Suunto and the MC-2G Global Compass? Is there any disadvantage to a global compass?

I used to have an old silva. When I took it over seas, it developed a bubble inside the liquid. It still worked ok, but the bubble would interfere with the needle a little and it made me less confident in it's accuracy. My thought is that if bubbles forming inside a compass is normal when traveling on an airplane, then buying a global compass might not be worth it.

I like the Suunto MC-2G. Even if you don't travel, it's nice because the needle seems to settle quicker and seems steadier when walking. I don't know of any disadvantages.

THese are the ones talked about so far. Thanks for all the input!
Suunto MC-2G
Suunto M-3 Leader
Brunton 15TDCL
Brunton 8099 Eclipse
Brunton 8010G and 8097
Brunton 8084G

What is the Brunton 8084G? Not familiar with that compass.

The only real disadvantage of the global needle is its coloring. It doesn't have has good a contrast as the non-global needle. The global needle is red (north) and white, but the red end has a sizable patch of whitish glow-in-the-dark material, which could be confusing under stressful conditions - but not too bad. The non-global needle is red (north) and black, and the red end has a much smaller patch of whitiish glow-in-the-dark material.

As I don't do much world traveling with a compass these days I don't need one. If you might need the compass elsewhere in the world then by all means, get a global needle.

I haven't mentioned the compasses sold under the Silva trademark in the U.S. I don't buy them because they aren't really made by Silva. Instead they are made by someone else (don't know who) and then sold under the Silva trademark by Johnson Outdoors (the same people who market Eureka tents and Old Town canoes.). Johnson Outdoors used to sell compasses for the real Silva in the U.S. and the the filing for the U.S. trademark, but when Silva bought Brunton in 1996 or so Silva wanted to sell their compasses through Brunton instead of Johnson Outdoors, but JO wouldn't give up the trademark. It bugs me that Johnson Outdoors wouldn't allow the real Silva to have their own trademark. That's just me.

Navigation with a GPS has changed things a lot for me. Rather than getting bearings off of a map I tend to use waypoints on a GPS and let the GPS to calculate the bearings, and then I use a compass to sight/follow the bearing. The map is still critical for visualizing landmarks (after orienting the map to north with the compass) and tracking waypoints. I use a UTM grid from http://www.maptools.com to convert waypoint UTM coordinates to and from the maps. So my primary use of compass is orienting the map and sighting bearings taken from the GPS. As much as possible I try to pre-load the GPS with key waypoints using ExpertGPS on the PC before heading out.

Of course if the GPS stops functioning I can just use the map and compass the "old fashioned" way, but the GPS just makes it much easier and more accurate.

Ken

If you are in North America, all "Silva" brand compasses are marketed by Johnson Worldwide, who owns both the Silva and 'Ranger' brand names in North America. JW appears to source their better compasses, such as the Ranger models, from Suunto in Finland (check for 'made in Finland' on the box). Elsewhere in the world, 'Silva' still means Silva of Sweden, the original manufacturer of the Ranger.

Original Silva of Sweden compasses, including the Ranger 15 and 25 are sold in North America as Brunton Nexus 15, elsewhere in the world as the Silva Ranger 15 or 25. The top of the line Swedish Silva Ranger is the 25TDCLE with built-in illumination, which Brunton doesn't seem to carry anymore.

I like most of the Silva Ranger-style compasses, including the Suunto MC-2G, one of the best. Along with the other Ranger-type features such as adjustable declination, the MC-2G is of very high quality, has a FAST-settling needle, a FULLY luminous and clearly-marked dial with raised degree markings, and two sighting ports (high notch and eye-level)for different-height landmarks.

I really don't like the Brunton Eclipse compasses at all. Both the 8099 and 8096 I own get frequent bubbles with rapid temperature changes. The 8099 is just plain too bulky and clumsy, requiring removal of the rubber boot and cards to use with a map or to take a bearing at chest-level. The mirror is small, and the twin plastic cover pieces have quite a bit of slop or play on my example. The numbering system inexplicably uses hard-to-see green ink for the forward bearings, yet black ink for reverse bearings. The Eclipse declination system uses only friction to hold its position and frequently slips (unlike the geared screw systems used on most Silva and Suunto adjustable compasses). The circle-on circle magnetic indicator on the Eclipse models is actually slower to settle and more inclined to bob than most ordinary needles and is NOT luminous (nor is the dial or the direction-of-travel indicator). This compass is completely unusable in low light without constant flashlight illumination. Finally, the dial markings are printed on cardboard instead of engraved on the dial, the baseplate roamer & scale markings come off easily as they are just printed on and not engraved, and the meridian adjustment lines are limited to two tiny red lines on the outside of the dial (which is not transparent) instead of the bottom of the clear capsule, making it hard to align them with a map meridian when taking a bearing from the map.

The Brunton (in North America) or Silva of Sweden (elsewhere) 54LU prismatic compass is basically a Silva Type 4 NATO baseplate compass with a compass card instead of a needle, and a built-in prismatic sight. It is considered a military model compass and is used by Australian military forces, among others. It can be used at waist-level or with a map like an ordinary baseplate compass, but the 54's prismatic sight also allows 0.5 degree accuracy with eye-level sighting in ideal conditions (one must be careful not to tilt the compass as the compass capsule is quite shallow and it is easy to 'ground' the compass card, and the prism is also not that visible in poor light). Because of the special prismatic sight design, the 54 is not available with adjustable declination. Its luminous sights work well. Outside North America, the Model 54 is also available in a tritium-illuminated version.

(Sorry about the long post - I just kept writting and lost track of time/space. I'm sitting here enjoying watching old Outter Limits episodes on the SciFi channel!)

Yeah, I've heard similar comments in other reviews. That is part of the reason I tend to compare my 8099 to my 15TDCL almost in hopes convincing myself that I like the 15TDCL better.

I did get a bubble in my first 8099, but they fixed it for free and since then neither of my two 8099's have gotten bubbles.

People say the 8099 is bulky. The whole 8099 package at 3.80 oz. is about 1 oz. heaver than the 15TDCL at 2.85 oz. The 8099's boot weights about 1.10 oz and the reference cards weight about 0.40 oz (both weighed with lanyard on, so these are approximate). Ironically the 8099 compass itself weights only 2.35 oz. which is actually less than the 15TDCL.

Ironically the older 8099 weighs in at 3.90 oz, but the newer one weighs in at 3.80 oz. They cut a bit of weight somewhere.

The 8099 is a bit larger.
The 8099's dimensions with the boot are 2.50"x4.00"x3.85". The 15TDCL's dimensions are 2.375"x3.875"x0.50".
So, the 8099 is 5% wider, 3% longer, and 25% thicker than the 15TDCL.

The boot & cards do need to be slid up the lanyard in order to use the compass on top of a map (though not to orient the map), but it can easily be used to take bearings at belt (or chest) level with the boot on. Since I tend to mostly use the compass for orienting the map and taking bearings the boot isn't an issue for me.

The mirror on the 8099 (1.25"x2") is indeed smaller than that of the 15TDCL (2.38"x2.56") - which might account for the heavier weight of the 15TDCL compass itself. Still, I find sighting bearings with the mirror on the 8099 much easier than with the 15TDCL - possibly because or the circle-in-circle method. The larger mirror on the 15TDCL would certainly be better for signalling, but I carry a separate signal mirror in my kit.

There is bit of wiggle in the cover joints on my older 8099, though I hadn't noticed it before. They must have changed tolerances, because on the newer 8099 the main cover is rock solid. The smaller mirror cover still has a bit of wiggle at 90 & 45 degrees, but is rock solid when fully open at 180 degrees and when nearly closed. Like I said, I've never noticed the wiggle before and it has never bothered me.

As mentioned, the 8099 dial shows two numbers - green numbers for forward bearings and black numbers for backbearings. On my first 8099 the green numbers are toward the center and have lower contrast, but on the newer one the green numbers are on the ouside of the dial and are much higher contrast due to a bolder font. I like the numbers on the newer one much better - very easy to read, at least for me. I also like that the 8099 displays one tick for each degree - the 15TDCL only displays one tick for every other degree - this is probably made possible by the 8099's magnified reading area which works well.

I like that the 8099's declination can be adjusted without a screwdriver. That is how all the Brunton-designed compasses work, and I haven't had any probllems with any of them that I've used (8099, 8096, 8010G, 9020G). On the 15TDCL (and the Suunto M3) I worry that I might strip the adjustment screw, but have assumed (hoped) that the supplied aluminum tool is not as hard as the screw head.

The settling time on each seems pretty similar. Because of the nature of the 8099's disk there isn't any "wiggling" that I see on the 15TDCL, but the wiggling never bothered me. I've always figured that settling time is a balance between convenience and accuracy, and a compass that settles too fast might not settle off the true bearing a bit.

I can't tell what the dial markings are printed on - could be cardboard. I can't tell since it is embedded under plastic so nothing can touch them or wear them out and I don't care to rip mine apart to find out. The markings are printed on white, but on the newer 8099 it is actually brighter white than on the older one. I suppose this is part of the better contrast mentioned earlier. The white numbers on the 15TDCL's dial is printed on the outside and under magnification doesn't appear to be engraved. It definitely is touched by the operator. I see some of the edges of numbers chipped and missing, but there isn't enough wear to make it unusable.

By the way, the reference cards are printed on durable plastic. They include:

1. A quick clinometer scale that is displayed under the compass capsule when the boot is on.
2. First aid instructions for choking, fractures, heatstroke, hypothermia, abdominal wounds, frostbite, snake bite, clearing airway & mouth-to-mouth breathing, cardiac message (supposed to be massage?), shock, bleeding, and burns.
3. Instructions for sighting a field bearing, traveling a bearing, and orienting a map to true north, getting a map bearing, and triangulation.
4. Survival hints: if lost, signals, water, water purification, food, shelter, common knots,
5. Instructions for clinometer measurement: 1 degree resolution using dial
6. Tangent conversion table for calculating heights, common metric conversions
7. Instructions for UTM grid determination
8. Instructions for height measurement
9. UTM corner tools for 1:24k, 1:25k, 1:62.5k, 1:50k, 1:250k, and scales for 1:63.36k, 1:62.5k, 1:100k, 1:50k, 1:250k, and 1:25k

The survival hints say to move as little as possible to maintain strength, make shelter & signals, inventory supplies & ration food/water, travel only if you know where you're going, and don't panic. Keep at least one fire going, use three of anything to signal. Water is important - conserve and try to find more, but don't ration in hot weather. Drink what you need and conserve fluids by seeking shade, and moving only as needed. Water purification methods listed are boiling water for 20 mins, bleach, and iodone. Keep shelter as small as possible so body heat keeps it warm. Choose a location to protect from wind, rain, snow. Knots shown are the taughtline hitch and the square knot.

There markings on the bottom of the 8099 are only printed on - with no engraving. Those on the 15TDCL are engraved and printed. I've read others have a problem with the markings on the 8099 coming off. Since I mostly use the compass with the boot on that hasn't been an issue at all for me. I've wondered if the ink removal on the 8099's are related to DEET. I've rubbed and rubbed on mine - even scraped it for a while using my fingernail and don't see any wear. Hmmm.

I haven't used the meridian lines on a compass since I was a kid using a compass that didn't have adjustable declination. To make up for that we'd draw magnetic N/S lines on the map and use those lines to set the bearing (without having to orient the map to north). These days I just orient the map and "box the needle" since UTM grid lines aren't truely N/S and I prefer not to draw true N/S lines.

I do wish the 8099 had a UTM corner tool right on the baseplate instead of on the reference card, but I tend to use a UTM grid from maptools.com instead anyway.

One other thing to note is that the 15TDCL has glow-in-the-dark points while the 8099 doesn't. That hasn't been a problem for me since I don't navigate with a compass in the dark.

Like I said, I just find the 8099 to perform better for my uses (orienting the map and sighting bearings). While I have too many compasses, I prefer to use the 8099.

I find the Silva 54LU very intriquing, but lack of adjustable declination makes it unacceptable for my needs.

Ken

"I did get a bubble in my first 8099, but they fixed it for free and since then neither of my two 8099's have gotten bubbles."

The bubble issue with Eclipse compasses has been mentioned many times by many people who bought Eclipse model compasses. Sometimes the bubbles disappear when the compass is warmed, sometimes not. I can't quantify the exact number of complaints or what Brunton may or may not have done to address the problem (they don't mention it), but I do know that since its introduction, I have seen many more complaints with the Eclipse capsule than with other liquid-filled compasses of similar price and class (including other Brunton models).

"So, the 8099 is 5% wider, 3% longer, and 25% thicker than the 15TDCL."

Measurements aside, the 8099 is just plain bulky for what it does - even the lanyard is oversized. I can fit most Ranger compasses into a shirt pocket, but not the 8099.

"I also like that the 8099 displays one tick for each degree - the 15TDCL only displays one tick for every other degree - this is probably made possible by the 8099's magnified reading area which works well."

Well, the eye splits 2-degree increments easily, so actually the 8099 isn't any more theoretically accurate than the Ranger designs - both are readable to one degree. Someone who demands higher accuracy would probably switch to a Brunton Transit or a Suunto KB sighting compass, but you certainly won't get more accuracy out of an 8099 than say a MC-2G or a Silva 25 Ranger, especially in dim light.

"I've always figured that settling time is a balance between convenience and accuracy, and a compass that settles too fast might not settle off the true bearing a bit."

Actually, that's not true. Fast-settling handheld compasses with 0.25 degree accuracy are available now, but they are expensive, do not possess a separate baseplate, and usually need to be rested or tripod-mounted to achieve their inherent accuracy. Another method is to use two magnetized needle ends, which gives a very fast and accurate needle. Orienteering compasses such as the Silva Jet or Suunto Arrow have them, though such compasses do not normally feature sighting mechanisms due to the specialized nature of that sport. The global needle used by Suunto is a twin-pivot design that settles very fast. Suunto and Recta (owned by Suunto now) have since combined that design with a prismatic sight that is also very accurate. In contrast, I think the Brunton card-type needle ('circle-on-circle') design offers nothing in the way of an improvement. At the very least, it needs a heavier dampening fluid.

"The white numbers on the 15TDCL's dial is printed on the outside and under magnification doesn't appear to be engraved. It definitely is touched by the operator. I see some of the edges of numbers chipped and missing, but there isn't enough wear to make it unusable."

The 15TDCL is one of the lower price-point Ranger compass models. At some point, something has to give. Try the 25TDCL or 25TDCLE, or Suunto's MC-2G, all of which have either raised or engraved dial markings, as well as engraved scales and markings on the baseplate. They also feature a raised transparent gripping section, so the fingers never touch the printed portion of the dial.

"I've wondered if the ink removal on the 8099's are related to DEET. I've rubbed and rubbed on mine - even scraped it for a while using my fingernail and don't see any wear."

No, it's because the numbers are only printed on. If you have an 8099 and always keep the rubber boot on, (and never use the compass as protractor or measuring tool on the map), yours might last longer. It's almost standard practice for 8097 and 8096 compass users these days to place clear packing tape on the baseplate bottom to preserve what's left of the roamer scales and markings.

"I like that the 8099's declination can be adjusted without a screwdriver. That is how all the Brunton-designed compasses work..On the 15TDCL (and the Suunto M3) I worry that I might strip the adjustment screw, but have assumed (hoped) that the supplied aluminum tool is not as hard as the screw head"

It's a matter of personal preference. I have never had any stripped adjustment screws on Silva or Suunto compasses (of course, one rarely needs to make that adjustment more than once prior to a trip), but I HAVE had too many Bruntons slip their declination setting. The Brunton adjustment system necessarily changes the relation of the dial to the capsule bottom, forcing the designers to place the orienting lines on the outside of the non-transparent dial (if they put the lines on the bottom of the capsule, one would have to remember to readjust declination to zero and back again each time you took a map bearing). To me, the Brunton declination system takes a definite second, as the whole point of a baseplate compass with adjustable declination is to rapidly coordinate with map, including ease of use as a protractor to measure one's true bearing along a planned course.

"To make up for that we'd draw magnetic N/S lines on the map and use those lines to set the bearing (without having to orient the map to north).

I have never been a fan of drawing magnetic lines all over a map myself. As you imply, few people do it anymore. You sometimes see adventure racers still employing the practice, always done in advance, usually with drafting boards and one-arm protractors to accurately reproduce angles on special large-scale racing maps. Otherwise, it is rarely accomplished with complete accuracy (using the declination diagram as a angle indicator is a common mistake) and the pencil lines often obscure important detail. Also, having bought a compass with adjustable declination, it seems pointless, now that the compass can be easily adjusted to give true bearings and make compass and map 'talk the same language'.

"These days I just orient the map and "box the needle" since UTM grid lines aren't truely N/S and I prefer not to draw true N/S lines."

You never take a map bearing along a planned course on the map, point to point? I find it indispensable, especially when the initial landmarks on my course aren't readily distinguishable from each other. To use a compass as a protractor with a USGS topo map, you can orient the compass' meridian lines with the map margin or the intermediate lines/crosses of longitude, which on US maps corresponds to true north. That's one of the major benefits of a baseplate compass.

"One other thing to note is that the 15TDCL has glow-in-the-dark points while the 8099 doesn't. That hasn't been a problem for me since I don't navigate with a compass in the dark."

Most people don't navigate with a compass in the dark, but occasionally an emergency or other circumstances (hunting, etc.) require its use in the dark or - in low light. The 8099's small mirror and complete lack of luminosity or built-in illumination genuinely handicap it in that respect.

That's good to hear that the declination screw is robust. I've wondered aobut that.

"You never measure your map bearing along a planned course on the map, point to point? "

I usually set up routes on my PC first and then download the routes to my GPS. I then take bearings from the GPS. Even if plans change I'll usually try to add the new waypoint to the GPS and then get the bearing.

If someone is using the meridian lines a lot then the Brunton-designed compasses simply aren't the best choice.

A few more thoughts on the 8099...

I find some of the clinometers unuseable with my nearsightedness and bifocals (the 8099 has multiple different clinometers). The hinge clinometer is fine. The 1 degree accuracy one that uses the "clinometer marking" on the backside of the baseplate is OK, about 90% perfect. The other ones that require you to read the hanging green arrow pointing at the green scale are impossible for me. This is an bifocal thing. Younger eyes or people that aren't so nearsighted possibly wouldn't have these problems. But how often do you use the clinometer, and how many different versions of the thing do you need on one compass?

The size of the mirror on the 8099 vs the size on the 15tdcl ... who cares? As long as the mirror is large enough to accurately align things. And it is on the 8099. No problem seeing the entire compass dial in the mirror. Bigger might be better for preening yourself, but it's not needed for compass functions. I also think the skinnier mirror on the 8099 might be easier to adjust the angle using a one-hand hold and your thumb. The full width mirror of the 15tdcl seems like it might be more awkward to hold and adjust one-handed (this is just speculation on my part). Using a compass mirror for signalling would be marginal at best. I always carry a seperate real signallying mirror anyway.

I'm not sure why the 8099 has two flip up covers. That does seem overly complex on first look. One guess is that this makes it easy to hold the compass and use your thumb to line up the marks to take a bearing. Only one hand is needed. The second cover isolates the turnable dial from the baseplate. Is this easy one-handed operation the same for the 15tdcl? I don't have a 15tdcl to test and comment on this.

As far a declination adjustment (screw vs friction), I'd just as soon have no adjustments at all. I really don't have a problem doing a little simple math in my head. I'd probably be more worried wondering if I'd remembered to pre-adjust declination or not.

I"ve read several comments that the magnified area of the dial is a big hit with us older bifocaled crowd. I finally was forced to get them in August. I really struggle to read the small red print on the body of the 15TDCL and the UTM scales on the 8099's UTM card.

The 15TDCL would work just fine one-handed but on mine the dial isn't nearly as smooth-turning as the 8099, so it is kind of hard to rotate one-handed with a thumb. It can be done though. There is no way I can flip the 15TDCL open one-handed without using toes too. The 8099 can be flipped open one-handed, but it is awkward.

I'll assume you have a newer verson of the 8099 - with the green forward bearing numbers on the outside of the dial. Consider yourself lucky. For some reason I only use the old one thinking that I'm saving the new one for my son or something. The reality is that having the green numbers on the inside of the dial does make them hard to read.

In the older one they also had the black backbearing numbers backward under the philosophy that you'd use them when using the compass & mirror backwards - what they call "reverse mirror sighting" (kind of like the old press cameras where you look down on the mirror) - when backwards the black numbers would be the facing up - it kind of made sense. I think the reality is that users didn't use the compass that way and more often used the black numbers as back bearings while holding the compass at eye-level. So now the newer version has both green & black numbers facing the same way.

I should start using the new one and let my son (with better eyesight) use the older one.

I finally got around to doing more repeated measures (in the house - its been raining all day today) and I continue to get +/- 1 degree (a 2 degree range) for both the 8099 and the 15TDCL, but do find boxing the 15DTCL needle harder. Hmmm, I just realized that the problem might be related to the colors involved. On my 15DTCL both the north end of the needle and the north end of the box are red and I find it hard to see the red line of the box next to the red part of the needle. The south ends use a white needle and a black box so that is easier to see.

Ken

I've owned and used both silvas and suuntos, the old silva type 3, 7 and 17 and the suunto m3-g with global needle. These were used for coarse surveying for radio work and casual hiking. Two silvas eventually developed bubbles, one from a crack in the capsule, the suunto (so far) has been bubble free. The main advantage of the global needle is that it will work in the southern hemisphere, though a regular one will eventually point north-ish if you tap it.

One possible advantage of the global needle apart from using it in the south is that the capsule is deeper and the needle itself is further down in the liquid. If a bubble does develop, it may have less effect on this design than on a regular capsule where the needle is closer to the top.

I've used Silvas, Suuntos and Bruntons for 45 years for rough surveys, wilderness routefinding and backpacking. Like a lot of technological gizmos compasses increase in cost as precision and durability increase. There are trade-offs. For me compasses are like firemaking - carry redundancy. So here's my take - for map orientation and cruising from a map the Ranger type is best. My old Silva has served well for 40 years - don't know what's up with those today. When marching the handbearing compasses are best - I now carry a fairly new Suunto combo compass and clinometer - accuracy is high order (est. to 0.25 deg.) - but you'll blow your $100 on the compass alone. It is not best for baseplate/map work. Finally, the top of the heap is the Brunton Pocket Transit. I have one nearly 45 years old and it's a gem. Heavy as lead, faultless accuracy (you could, if careful, survey with it), tough as nails. The real thing will set you back more than $200. Knock-offs for under $100 - but I wouldn't trust them. I usually carry two of these plus a Marbles Arms pin on. I don't usually <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> get lost!

You can't go wrong with either the 8099 or the 15TDCL.
I have both along with a couple of Suunto Globals (Matchbox and mirror).
These are both great for experienced user and novice.

All this being said, for most land navigation as well as ruggedness I prefer the SIRS G-150 or P-G M-73. Both are tritium prismatic s.
If you want the cheaper version the standard MIL-SPEC lensatic is a good compromise for 1/4 the cost.
Durability of any of these is excellent.
A lightweight version of the P-G is the M-88 which is about 1/2 as heavy as the M-73.
While many observers will question the need for night navigation capability, there are some conditions that warrant self illumination, not all military either, all the same I would rather have it and not need it than the converse. Cave exploring being just one example; even with a headlight (most cavers would carry at least three light sources), but try doing this;hold a flashlight in one hand, compass in the other (you need two hands for the compass if it's indirect reading).

These compare with my professional hand compasses for accuracy; Brunton GEO pocket transit and swiss merridian engineering/geological compass. These will set you back about $400-$500 plus accessories. Professional compasses like these or the Suunto Tandem, are good for engineering work, but lack features for land navigation. Also the GEO with it's rare earth magnet will have to be separated from any other compass by three or more feet. The magnet is so strong it will defect any other compass by a couple of degrees.

The biggest thing in favor of the baseplate/mirror compasses is magnetic variation adjustment (declination for the non-aviator).
While this is a nice feature, all mariners and aviators get by with protractors that do the same.
In the Army most of us learned the LARS technique.
Both work, along with whiz wheels and the like.
It just isn't that hard.

Plastic protractor baseplate compasses have to be protected in rough use, if you fall on one it's toast.
Another reason for having a backup (or two).
Personally I would rather have two medium compasses in the bush than only one "High" end compass, but three is even better.
They weigh nothing.

I can't say which is my favorite, the 8099 has a lot of goodies with it. The 15TDCL is a trusted standard, everybody seems to have one. the Model 54 is nice, has both prismatic and baseplate features, but no clinometer. Then again you can buy a clinometer from Suunto or Brunton as well.
The Global needle is only needed for the zones South of the equator with a couple of exceptions. But I find the Global needle does make vertical alignment easier, This helps if you are not on even (level) ground. It also seems to make for a steadier needle.
Both forms of the Global (Matchbox,MG-1) have clinometers.

All the same, you most likely will end up with a couple or three.
You really can't have too many.

"All this being said, for most land navigation as well as ruggedness I prefer the SIRS G-150 or P-G M-73. Both are tritium prismatics."

They are very fine compasses. Personally, I'm of the opinion that there is no perfect compass with 100% durability or suitability to conditions. All have certain applications and certain disadvantages; it's a question of choosing the right type with the durability you need and the amount of hassle you're willing to endure. My W.F. Stanley/Francis Barker/M-73/Mk III/SIRS "oil bottles" are not map-friendly, and ALL have all developed bubbles with sharp temperature drops, despite the built-in diaphragm. They all use iso alcohol as a dampening agent, which in my experience is more subject to bubbles than those using light viscosity oils. I know one guy that filled his with marine compass oil to effect a fix and provide more dampening of the card. They're also heavy for what they do.

"These compare with my professional hand compasses for accuracy; Brunton GEO pocket transit and swiss merridian engineering/geological compass. These will set you back about $400-$500 plus accessories."

In my experience the 'oil bottle' prismatic compasses are accurate to about one degree or 20 mils, hand-held, when used in good light (the prismatic sight dates from the 1930s and is a bit dim) This is quite good, but I have a $5.00 Taiwanese liquid-filled lensatic compass that also provides this level of accuracy with no bubbles, either (though I wonder how many lemons I'd have to sort through to achieve similar results with a replacement). The Silva Model 54 can also be read to this level of accuracy in ideal conditions. Most individual compasses that purport to offer even finer readings and greater inherent accuracy usually need to be mounted on a tripod to provide consistent, repeatable results. That's just as well, since such accuracy is really unnecessary for general wilderness navigation. Even resection and triangulation position-finding techniques can be accomplished well enough with an ordinary baseplate compass to landmarks within normal distances, especially since there are nearly always ready alternatives for most of us with the availability of detailed large-scale topo maps and of course, GPS.

"The biggest thing in favor of the baseplate/mirror compasses is magnetic variation adjustment (declination for the non-aviator). While this is a nice feature, all mariners and aviators get by with protractors that do the same."

Right, but the point is it's one less thing to have to carry along, plus the declination adjustment feature eliminates the possibility of forgetting to make the necessary compensation (or doing so in reverse order) when cold, tired, or otherwise out of sorts. It must have value, as the popularity of these compasses has long since extended from recreational users to countless military, rescue, and mountaineering organizations all over the world.

"Plastic protractor baseplate compasses have to be protected in rough use, if you fall on one it's toast."

I'd have to disagree with that. Hit any compass just right and you can break it (especially the older oil bottle designs with multiple small parts and a glass dial face), but modern baseplate compasses are very durable and stand up well to most impacts - usually better than the U.S. army lensatic, which often bends the pivot with impacts onto hard surfaces. I've seen Silva 4's that survived being run over by truck wheels. Furthermore, I would expect many more reports of baseplate compass damage due simply to their huge popularity, not to mention the fact that a $25 lightweight baseplate compass might be in hand and in use a lot more, and not be carried or protected so carefully as a $150-$300 instrument. If you want an advance demonstration of ruggedness, Suunto used to test samples of their KB line by dropping them onto hard concrete from 1 meter height, not sure if they still do that (I'm not testing my $150 KB-77 that way, that's for sure). A lot of military forces have formally adopted the lightweight protractor compass and issue them (Silva, Suunto, or Recta) for active field service (U.K., France, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Australia, etc., etc.). So far, the Eclipse design compasses have not found popularity either with the military or with the forestry/surveying market. At one point Brunton was marketing the 8096 GPS compass to adventure racers who liked the roamer scales, but recurring problems with worn-off markings and bubbles seem to have soured its appeal a bit, judging from comments by some owners.

Tim,
You make some good points.
I wonder how many of the standard mirror compasses actually get much use. Most of the non-professional users put maybe a couple of hours use after they first get them. Being carried in a pocket doesn't count.
Military, engineering professionals and geologist use them for several hours a day, for months on end.
The countries you mention now are supplementing other compasses as a cost savings measure, so that everyone can have a compass. Most all of them still have professional models for non supplemental use, except the Swiss Reica (now Suunto/Reica ?)
My point wasn't that M-73,G-150's or lensatics were indestructible, just more durable than baseplate/mirror compasses.
Also of the maybe 10+ baseplate/mirror compasses that I have owned, all of them eventually get the bubble, most never go away.

Just a little note the M-73 uses filtered kerosene.
The SIRS G-150 does use iso OH still.
The newer ones seem more temperature and altitude compensated, or maybe I been lucky.
It's just that no maker seems much interested in low light readability apart from the Military/Marine focus mfg.
Tritium is just great, shame the luminous markers on most baseplate compasses are a JOKE, you might have just enough time to read it after charging with a flashlight before it goes out.
Brunton Pocket transits are rated 0.6 degrees or 10 mils specified.
All actual use is not as good of course, and your right when unmounted it's even worse.
Merridian has a cardian swivel so even hand held it's good to about 1/2 degree.

Lastly the declination compensation built into baseplate compasses are nice, I don't find that a protractor (douglas-square) or an aviation style (with magnetic compensation) are much hassle to carry in the map pouch.

Also the main point I was trying to make (Hope there was a point?) was everyone is going to buy more than one compass anyway.
So maybe you first start with a little variety and find what you like.

"The countries you mention now are supplementing other compasses as a cost savings measure, so that everyone can have a compass. Most all of them still have professional models for non supplemental use."

I really don't think that's true anymore, if it ever was, depending upon what you consider a 'professional' compass (Compasses issued to artillery units for precise fire control excluded, of course). Both Silva and Suunto have NATO stock numbers for their standard long-baseplate compasses, and certify them for military use for conventional land navigation and unit maneuvers. They have been in use for decades now, and considered first-line (not substitute standard) issue in all countries I have named. They are durable, waterproof, and available in mils, degrees, or both, with self-illuminated markings (tritium). At one point, the U.K. was issuing the lightweight protractor or baseplate compass (Silva 4 NATO or Suunto M-5) concurrently with the older prismatic individual 'oil bottles' with cost cited as a factor, but the compass proved so satisfactory for general field and infantry use that all subsequent purchases have been the Silva 4-type baseplate compass. Since UK land forces in particular are well known for holding onto, servicing, and reissuing small quantities of equipment long after its discontinuance by other armies, I don't think you can draw any negative conclusions by their continued use of existing stocks of the older prismatic individual compass (Back in 1980, the British Army did get hold of a bad run of Suunto M-5M baseplate compasses using an experimental liquid fill - it reacted with the compass pivot and turned the liquid blue-green, which didn't help Suunto's rep any, as the same defective compasses were unfortunately re-issued for many years thereafter!). SAS has used the Silva Model 54 (54M/6400), which is a prismatic sighting, tritium-lit baseplate compass (available with cover) also used by various military forces in Northern Europe as well as by the Australian Land Forces. Canada has long issued the Silva Ranger, a mirror-sighting baseplate compass with hinged cover, with complete satisfaction, and has also issued the Suunto MC-1, MC-2, and the Silva Model 54. None of these compasses can be considered low-end, and I disagree with you that the 'oil bottle' designs are any more soldier-proof than current baseplate or mirror-sight models. The UK does not use a cover with their lightweight baseplate compasses, and the British land forces manual instructs lightweight compass users to take more care in ensuring that the set bearing on night marches is not accidentally jostled, but it apparently hasn't been a problem in the field.

Even U.S. forces have experimented with the Silva of Sweden Ranger and the Silva 54/6400 - the Ranger is particularly popular as a private-purchase compass with Special Forces and Army Rangers for jungle operations, as it doesn't fog up or become incapacitated through humidity or water immersion like the standard U.S. lensatic model.

"a little note the M-73 uses filtered kerosene."

Both of mine came filled with pure iso alcohol. One was recently serviced/refilled and the repair tech confirmed the alcohol fill. They seem to be fairly versatile designs and I have even heard of some owners using filtered diesel fuel as a substitute. I understand that Silva's 'oil bottle' design, the MK IV, used to be filled with a light viscosity oil, much like its other compasses.

"Tritium is just great, shame the luminous markers on most baseplate compasses are a JOKE, you might have just enough time to read it after charging with a flashlight before it goes out."

That's true in many cases. Suunto has made a considerable effort to improve luminosity of standard models with its fully luminous bezel, which is an improvement and was one of the factors cited when the U.S. Forest Service selected a Suunto (M-5SK ('Smoke Killer'), a derivative of the M-5N NATO military model) for official issue to its forest fire fighting employees. They have also begun using larger luminous markings on many of their newer models. Silva of Sweden's Model 4LU and 54LU have fairly good luminous markings. Recta's matchbox compasses have excellent luminous markings, though their less expensive baseplate models often have little or no luminous points. Silva's top-of-the-line 25 Ranger TDCLE mirror-sight compass uses a replaceable, non-magnetic battery to provide illumination good for 6000 sightings and it works very well. In addition to tritium vials, I have long waited for manufacturers to adopt the photoluminescent lighting that so many marine handbearing compasses use today - it is both bright and fairly long-lasting.

"Lastly the declination compensation built into baseplate compasses are nice, I don't find that a protractor (douglas-square) or an aviation style (with magnetic compensation) are much hassle to carry in the map pouch."

Personal preference. It's more bulk and weight. Ultralight backpacking, long-distance backpacking, and adventure racing, etc. is now the rage, and they would strongly disagree with you - hard to convince those guys to even carry a compass along. If you carry a heavy prismatic compass, a protractor, and a protective pouch, you could probably substitute a small GPS instead and still have a nice baseplate compass along for no increase in weight.

I too would highly recommend against a Brunton 8099. Mine has had 3 capsule replacements for huge bubble issues. In most baseplate compasses a small to medium sized bubble will not greatly affect the use of the compass. But in the 8099, since it is a compass card type compass a bubble will inhibit the card swing making the compass an expensive piece of useless junk.

This fact coupled with bubble issues on every trip now has relegated my 8099 to the cupboard.

I like my Suunto global (ranger type) compass about the best of any that I own.

Here are a few of mine....



The Suunto global, the Recta matchbox, and the old Leupold (Michael's) forestry compass get more use than any others.

I purchased a Cammenga Model 27 because it is NOT liquid filled. Silva etc are good for general use, but beware of their inherent lack of robustness. If push comes to shove, use a baseplate compass to obtain bearings on a map, but I for one can do it faster with a protractor. Takes practice, but practice does make perfect. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"Silva etc are good for general use, but beware of their inherent lack of robustness."

What constitutes a 'lack of robustness' may be in the eye of the beholder, but many would disagree with you depending upon the compasses you are comparing and the abuse to which they are put (drops, compression by heavy weight, extreme temperatures, etc.) No compass is immune to abuse or environmental effects, least of all the issue lensatic. The lensatic compass is frequently rated highly by its owners for its ruggedness, but remember that today it is issued by a relatively small number of military forces. There are reasons beyond simply cost and its need for a separate protractor:

I. It is more subject to card/pivot freezing in extremely cold temperatures (one reason the Finns chose a liquid-filled compass years ago).

2. It is more subject to malfunctions/inaccuracy in rainy/humid environments than liquid-filled baseplate compasses, since its capsule is NOT waterproof.

3. Because of its metal housing, it is assumed to be sturdy, but in fact a compass is only is strong as its weakest link. In this case, the compass' deep-well design results in a pivot that tends to bend when subject to impacts on hard surfaces, resulting in compass inaccuracy. The government acceptance tests call only for the lensatic compass to be drop-tested from moderate height onto a table covered with fine sand.

"..use a baseplate compass to obtain bearings on a map, but I for one can do it faster with a protractor. Takes practice, but practice does make perfect."

I would assume that most people find it faster and easier to use a full-size protractor than using a small baseplate compass in the role of protractor. The point is, you can save carrying a protractor by carrying a dual-purpose instrument. 'Standard' or full-size baseplate compasses come with large diameter dials and 3.5" or longer baseplates, which do make things a bit easier. But it's strictly a personal preference thing.

Please don't take this as a indictment of either baseplate compasses or liquid filled, I own about 20 that have one attribute or the other (real Silvas,Suunto-Recta,Brunton-Nexus;8099,15TDCL,Global,Matchbox).
I will note that the largest buyer of Compasses in the world is the US Government. Mostly the armed forces.
A couple of comments;Apparently the US Army many years ago found that the liquid was the most common defect in their repairs.
As has been discussed in other post some of the military aspects are not needed by many non-military users, notably a mils scale.
Personally I think that self illumination is a good feature for MOST users if they know it or not.
All that being said, given the numbers of Lensatics in the field and the number of years in use, the US Military is either knowns something about it or is bone-headed (could be either, I served 6 years in the US Army and learned LARS,the M2,Lensatic,MGRS, etc,The right way vs the Army way).
Lensatics are heavy (as are some military prismatics, G-150,M-73 etc), but very rugged too.
Now nothing is GI proof.
Yes the military did experiment with the 15TDCL (good choice), but when I did the military it was well known that in ALL the schools especially RANGER school, that possession was contraband.
In the field you carry what they give you, but anything else too.
And you are right a lot of soldiers,airmen,marines carried baseplate type compasses.
So personally (and without any DATA to prove it) I feel that the Lensatic is MORE robust than the baseplate compass.
Certainly I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.