survival kits in small planes, accessible?

Posted by: Hike4Fun

survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 07:34 AM

Alaska and Canada specify that survival kits must be kept in
small planes. Are kits usually kept in an accessible places?
If the plane was on fire or sinking into water, getting the kit
out quickly could be really important.
Even if the plane stayed half submerged in very cold water,
a guy might get hypothermia while trying to find and recover
the survival kit.
Posted by: Frozen

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 02:04 PM

If you are a passenger in a small plane, the pilot will tell you where it is kept during your safety briefing.

Posted by: Packman

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 02:59 PM

Well, I'll tell you what I do. I'm a lowly private pilot, so I have to rent. They won't let me keep those keys.... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Consequently, I'm forced to carry anything I want in the plane with me. This is a royal pain to me, because it limits how much I bring. My kit stays in my Flight Bag, which is on the backseat right behind me. If I have passengers, then I'll put it behind the rear seat in the baggage area. In a Piper Warrior (PA-28-151), this area is easily reached by those backseat passengers while keeping their belts on. If its on the seat behind me, I can reach my bag and kit without looking or turning around. In the event of an Emergency, like an engine out, I'll go for it after the plane is stopped, on the ground.

If it's going to be a ditching, I'm going to get the plane set up for my Best Glide Speed, then go for my life jacket. I'm always close enough to land that the Kit won't help me, plus it's not geared for water, with the exception of signalling stuff. I'd go for my Vertex Handheld Radio before I went for the kit over water. (waterproof Radio).

If I needed them to, I'd tell passengers to get it out and hand it to me.

If I had my own plane, then I'd keep the kit where it could be reached easily. Read as, not bolted down. Solo, it'd be next to me. With passengers, where they can reach it with belts on.

To stay with your idea of hypothermia, well, I'd get it out once I'd determined that engine wasn't restarting and take it with me.

Man, do I ever hope I never need that thing....

Happy Flying,
Kyle
Posted by: Hike4Fun

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 04:26 PM

Frozen,
Are these kits usually kept in an easily accessible place?
I can imagine a kit buried under gear and freight.

Packman,
[color:"blue"]I'm forced to carry anything I want in the plane with me. [/color]
If connecting from an airline, how do you have firestarting stuff
like butane lighter, flare, etc?

[color:"blue"] Vertex Handheld Radio [/color]
I assume this is air band. Do you recommend that model?

[color:"blue"]Man, do I ever hope I never need that thing.... [/color]
Yeah, it could be very grim, even if you are not injured in the
crash, hypothermia and starvation (aggravated by cold) could
be expected. If you make the kit too big, you might start leaving
it behind.

Canoe/Kayak people often wear life jackets that cover and
insulate the torso. I do not know if any of these have a collar that
supports the head (mine did not).
Posted by: duckear

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 04:27 PM

A critical amount of gear on your person, with a more comprehensive kit onboard. More accessible is better, but every aircraft and loadout is different; thus compromises have to be made.
Posted by: Frozen

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 06:02 PM

When I've flown in helicopters, the kit was in a big duffle in the cargo compartment, which isn't very big anyway. I haven't flown too often in small fixed wing aircraft, but it is possible that alot of cargo could get in the way.

Flying in Canadian military aircraft north of 55 degrees latitude, all passengers are required to have a complete winter kit with them right at their seat. This regulation was implemented after an incident near Alert (83 N), where a Hercules aircraft went down in a blizzard.
Posted by: birddog

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 08:26 PM

Hi guy's, it's that guy from downunder again, with my thoughts on where to carry your PSK in light aircraft. I tend to break my PSK into two packs, one in which I carry my priority items ( Aircraft radio, Sat phone, 406 Mkz PLB, Signaling mirror, Whistle etc... ) is carried in a small pack placed just near my seat firmly restrained, but not so that I cannot quickly detach it from it's fasteners. The other larger kit ( tarps, cookiing gear, food, Gerber saw, rope, water supplies etc ... ) I place in a priority location in the back luggage area, above any luggage / freight. Unlike many of you, I do have the benefit of holding on to the keys of 9 single / 6 Twin aircraft and 3 choppers ( piston, turbine, and pure jet ). I also carry a personal survival kit in my flight bag, or in my flight suit.
Posted by: Packman

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 11:06 PM

Well, I haven't had an issue with that yet. I've only flown privately from my own local airport. If I want to go flying somewhere I've never been before, I usually go with an instructor from a Flight School in the area. For example, I did this in Hawaii. That way, I log the Time and get a free tour out of it. However, I can dodge the airline mess in regards to my pocket PSK, as there is no butane or anything similar in it. Sparklite and a few different kinds of matches, plus the Sparklite Tinder Tabs. But, I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

You're correct, the Vertex is an Air Band radio. I highly reccomend this model, actually. I'm sure there are other similar out there, but I'm not familiar with them. It's not the cheapest model on the market, at about 400$, if I recall correctly. But, the features make it well worth it. It has transmit-recieve capability on both airband and on 2 & 10 meter HAM, plus FM recieve and NOAA recieve. Best yet, It's tested to the JIS-7 standard, meaning it's been proven waterproof to three feet for thirty minutes.

You're more than correct about hypothermia, although its not as big a concern here in Florida as it can be elsewhere. Yes, it can become an issue if you get wet or arne't properly clothed, but that's the same everywhere.

Part blessing, part curse, is my storage options for my kit. The fact that I'm forced to take it with me each and every time I leave the plane for the day limits its size, and consequentially, its weight. Right now, it's fairly compact. (10" X 8" X 4", plus an externally attached knife.)

With regards to the life jacket, I sincerely hope not to need it. Available at my Aircraft rental place are life rafts for rent. Sometimes, I invest if I'll be going over a lot of water on a flight. I'd much rather be in a raft than a vest. I'm going to be investing in a high-quality vest after this holiday season, I hope. Probably a Mustang Survival vest. Thoughts, anyone?

Happy Flying,
Kyle
Posted by: Hike4Fun

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/07/06 11:15 PM

[color:"blue"]
Packman said:
If it's going to be a ditching, I'm going to get the plane set up for my Best Glide Speed, then go for my life jacket. I'm always close enough to land that the Kit won't help me, plus it's not geared for water, with the exception of signalling stuff. [/color]

If you are ditching in water but close to land, wouldn't the kit
be very useful, once you reached land. Or, would the kit be
such a burden, in the water, that you might expire before
you made it to land?

Does anyone's kit float? Or have an attached inflatable device?
Posted by: Packman

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 12:19 AM

Yes and no. As you said, it could indeed slow me down in the water, so it might get left. Mine doesn't float as of right now. I'm working on it, but haven't come up with anything useful yet that won't add so much bulk as to make it useless.

Also, the Mayday call that I'd be broadcasting should help me.

Actually, as I type this, I'm remembering an ironic story. About six months ago, we had a Grumman Commander (100,000$ plane, brand spanking new) have an engine failure after takeoff. Water in the tanks, IIRC. Well, the guy ditches successfully in the bay just beyond the airport. Any life jackets or life rafts would have been little or no use to him or his passenger. What happened? Well, after his successful ditching, he and his passenger jumped off the wing, and walked through the 4 feet of water back to shore and asked the guys fishing to please allow them to borrow their cell phone. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Fortunately, no one was hurt, except for their pride.

But, getting back to your statement, that was poor phrasing on my part. Allow me to reword: I'd go for my life jacket first, becauseI 'm not sure how long I could tread water, especially if I'm hurt. The Kit won't help me much in the water. I'd try to take my kit and go for shore, once there I'd break it open. I'd also forgotten to mention my PSK that stays in my pocket when I'm in the plane. that one is guaranteed to leave the plane with me.

Apologies, that was poor phrasing on my part.

-Kyle
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 01:28 AM

A standard plot devise in survival movies is losing the survival kit at the last moment and then making do, or returning to the wreckage, and, after pushing a rather pale looking and bloated Uncle Bob out of the way retrieving the thing. My flying is in sailplanes or a Morane- Saunier Criquet. Theres really not all that much ship between me and the kit anyway. The Criquet lost power years ago, and being a glider extraordinaire anyway we almost had to get out and push the thing in for a landing on an access road in a huge lemon grove. I was all excited about actually using my PSK. Then this Californio orchard manager drove up in a company truck and gave us a ride back to the airport. I could have killed him with my Fallkniven, I was so disappointed. But he had a 12 guage for lemon poachers <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: KTOA

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 02:06 AM

Just some general comments I give to my students:

Ditching in water -- .
Plan on ending up inverted in the water
You'll stop quick, be ready for that
Pop the door or window prior to impact
FLY THE AIRPLANE UNTIL YOU COME TO A COMPLETE STOP
The water is always cold, be prepared
On cross-countries where I leave suburbia, I wear a paracord lanyard w/ two lights and a small BIC lighter, around my neck underneath the shirt
During an emergency having to do all the "right" things and deal with issues is difficult, be prepared

I could write pages so I'll stop know.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 03:08 AM

When I was in the Air Force back in the '06's I was stationed at an Army base for two years (long story there). And while not on flight status, I found my self in the right seat of a U-6A (DeHavillan Beaver) a lot (another long story). Not being on flight status meant no issue flight gear, so I begged, borrowed, and stole what I felt I needed, including survival gear. But the point of this little story is ditching. On my own I read the Army manual on the aircraft, and the part on ditching suggested jettisoning the doors (there were hinge pins you could pull from the inside of the aircraft), slowing to stall speed, and jumping from the aircraft just before it hit the water.

My question is, can the doors of any private aircraft be jettisoned while in flight? And do you pilots think that it would be better to jump, or ride it down and hope that the gear hitting the water doesn't flip the aircraft onto its back, probably knocking everyone on board silly in the process? It has always seemed to me that, at least at night, it might be hard to judge your altitude, and you could easily jump way too high.

Now days, if I ever have to go down in a private aircraft, I want it to be a Beaver flown by Harrison Ford, with all the gear he carried in Six Days, Seven Nights...
Posted by: Packman

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 03:48 AM

Well, I know lots of small planes can have the doors taken off. the Cessna 152's at the local FBO are offered for Door-Off Photo Flights. Whether they're jettisonable in flight or not, I'm not sure.

As a pilot, the last thing I want to do is jump out of my plane while it's moving. Even when you stall the plane, you are still moving forward. Not much, compared to normal flight, but in the C-152 for example, even though you've stalled, you're still moving forward at about 30-35 MPH. If you hit the water at that speed, plus your vertical speed, you're either dead or stunned. If you can't swim, we all know what happens. Plus, if the plane is truly stalled, it's not developing any lift, so it'll DROP. And, it'll drop too close for comfort to where I am.

You're right, judging height over water is difficult, even during the day. At night, it's pretty well impossible unless you have radar altimeter, and that's very rare on most small aircraft. The aircraft can flip on it's back, but that's not as common as what some people think, according to reports from the NTSB I've read. I think I'd stay in the plane until it had stopped moving, with my belt very, very tight.
In today's aircraft, we're taught to open all the door prior to impact with water/land, because the fuselage can warp and jam the door. Those U-6's were a bit quirky anyway. A close friend of mine flew them for something like 10 years, and he's got some interesting stories to tell. Neat planes though!

And, you're correct...Harrison Ford (He'll always be Han Solo to me...) does have some interesting gear in that movie.... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Happy Flying,
Kyle
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 04:20 AM

"... you're still moving forward at about 30-35 MPH. If you hit the water at that speed, plus your vertical speed, you're either dead or stunned...'

That reminds me of something I read one time. The Navy SEALS learned that your forward speed and altitude should should be the same when jumping out of choppers into the water. Ten ft, ten MPH, 20, 20, but the max was 30 ft, 30 MPH. Apparently over 30/30 you get hurt real bad.

I think I'm with you, I would ride it out...
Posted by: Misanthrope

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 04:44 AM

I hate to fly. I really hate to fly in small planes. Yet every year, I head to northwest Ontario for a fly-in fishing trip. I guess I like fishing in Canada more than I hate flying.

Over the years the pilots have changed. When I started going up, they were large, grizzly adams-looking, bush pilots. Now, you're likely to have some kid with multiple piercings in his face.

However, the planes haven't changed at all. Old Vikings, Cessna, Norseman, Otter's. Usually all of the writing on the panel has been worn away, and a Garmin GPS is duck taped to the yoke. Even with the Canadian aviation rules, I don't put much faith in any outfitters "survival kit." Add in the fact that the palne is packed with gear and provisions, I find it doubtful you would be able to find it in any kind of hurry.

I carry a fairly comprehensive kit in a Mountainsmith a$$pack, worn backwards, with the pack in front, so you can sit.

In the 26 years I've been doing this, I remember one brief on ditching and the survival kit, and that was probably 26 years ago.

There's just something unnatural in flying in a plane that was built 20 years before I was born, piloted by a kid who was built while I was in college.
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 05:30 AM

I would have thought a retired CHiP knew about the young lady 'mooning' another carload of college freshmen who fell out the passenger window <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 05:56 AM

I remember a high school guy trying to switch from the bed of one pickup to another at about 45 mph. He may be out of the hospital by now, it has only been about 15 years...
Posted by: norhumco

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/08/06 06:31 AM

Just set your plane down next the oyster guys and your saved!!!
Posted by: manse

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/09/06 06:56 PM

In all my private pilot flght training I have never heard an instructor suggest slowing to a stall speed and jumping out of the plane as one of the possible actions to take during a ditch.

All instructors I've flown with said to FLY (not ride) it down.

In the piper warrior, the instructors have always said to "crack the door" and wedge something in it if you can (the door opens against the airstream), so that the door cannot be jammed when you crash.

I do knot know of any small 2 - 6 seats private airplane that has the ability for the doors to be jettisoned.
Posted by: OldBaldGuy

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/09/06 11:14 PM

I always thought it was a bum idea also. Guess that is why I joined the AF instead of the Army, I tended to agree with their ideas a little more...
Posted by: KTOA

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/09/06 11:54 PM

Acrobatic aircraft have the ability to jettison the door while in flight. Pull the D-ring, which will pull the pins out of the door hinges. Door departs the airplane, remove your seat belt and you jump out, hopefully with your parachute on.

NO ONE IS EVER TAUGHT TO JUMP OUT OF THE AIRPLANE JUST BEFORE THE STALL ON LANDING. EVER!!!
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/10/06 12:01 AM

Quote:
Pop the door or window prior to impact


I'll not comment on the rest of this thread as there's a ton of ditching information on ETS, but the following information is potentially very critical and just now becoming more widely known:

IF YOU FLY COLUMBIA AIRCRAFT, DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR IN FLIGHT! (Other aircraft with gull wing doors may also be at risk. Always check your Pilot's Operating handbook to ensure that opening the door is safe to do.)
Posted by: JIM

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/10/06 11:59 AM

Just wanted to say that the Aviator Survival Pak is awesome!

However: Why did you cancel the 'Essential' survival pack?
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: survival kits in small planes, accessible? - 12/10/06 01:30 PM

Thanks. Had zero customer interest in the less expensive Essentials Pak. It seems that the market is broken into four segments. Those who don't think they need a survival kit, those who will pay up to $100, those who will pay up to about $400 and those for whom only the best will do and the money is not the major concern. The weight is also a factor, with many unwilling to carry 20-odd pounds regardless of cost. There wasn't a great deal of weight savings between the Essentials and the Ultimate, so that didn't become a factor.