James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis

There is nothing so easy to learn as experience and nothing so hard to apply.--Josh Billings

AP and Seattle Times have some details here.

Although not all the facts are currently available, the following appear true:

• 35 year old man (James Kim, CNET editor and writer), 30 year old woman (Kati Kim, owner of clothing store and apothecary), 4 year old child and 7 month old infant from San Francisco traveling in Oregon for Thanksgiving holidays
  
• Driving 2005 9-2X AWD wagon (Saab 9-2X specs )
• Notified lodge they would be arriving late using cellphone
• Report indicates family requested a scenic route to get to Gold Beach
• The family had intended to take Highway 42 from Interstate 5 to the coast, but missed the turnoff and decided to take Bear Camp Road instead. They went the wrong way at a fork in the road and ended up 15 miles from Bear Camp Road.
• Family arrived at Bear Camp Road after dark (normally closed/not plowed in winter)
• Travelled up to Bear Camp Viewpoint in mountains and tried to reverse course by taking spur road
• Travelled two miles on spur road before becoming snowbound
• Became snowbound on Nov. 25 and never arrived at lodge
• Food in vehicle limited to baby food and few snacks
• Weather 40-50F Hi's and 20-30F lows
• Kept warm using auto heater and when ran out of fuel by burning tire rubber
• James Kim tried eating unidentified wild berries for nutrition
• Mother nursed children
• Dec 2 James Kim set out on foot for help "wearing only tennis shoes, pants, a sweater and a jacket." Other kit carried not known. SF Chronicle indicates Kim was wearing blue jeans.
• Some reports indicate Kim may have been carrying snowshoes
• James Kim left auto at 0745 and indicated he would return by 1300. According to family, James Kim had some outdoor experience.
• According to law enforcement, Kim hiked 2 miles along the road and then into a creek drainage. Tracks at that point then lost.
• Dec 4 at 1345, helicopter found car and Kati Kim signalling using umbrella with reflective tape attached. The cellphone message to the lodge was localized to a cellphone tower which allowed searchers to focus on the Bear Camp Road area.
• Mother and children in "remarkable shape"
• In March, a family of six in RV was stuck in nearby location for 17 days before being rescued.

My prayers go out to the Kim family for a rapid recovery after their rescue. I pray that the Lord will watch over James until he is safely reunited with his wife and children.

I hope that we can all learn from this mishap as many of us (on this board in particular) might find ourselves in this situation.
It seems to me that the Kims made several missteps that led to a life-threatening emergency.

• No detailed travel plan with family and friends
• Deviation from the original plan by taking a shortcut/scenic road
• Travelling in unfamiliar territory after dark
• Inadequate vehicle kit and food while travelling in area known to have trapped motorists before
• Not having clothing appropriate to the overnight weather
• Leaving the vehicle for help with inadequate clothing/kit
• Travelling into the creek drainage area instead of staying on the road

Admittedly, hindsight is 20/20 and this young urban professional family did not anticipate getting caught out in the wilderness for days.

Their vehicle is small and doesn't have a lot of room for kit, especially with two kids. When our family road-trips, it is usually in the Dodge 3500 4x4 dually, so space is a little less of an issue. Once in a while, we will take the Subaru Outback which is closer in size and capability to the 9-2X that became stuck.

I'll be posting more details as they become available. In the interim, member thoughts on safe snow travel and snowbound contingency plans are appreciated.

I didn't realize anyone was lost until I saw that the mother and two children were found safe. I'm sure leaving was a hard decision for James Kim, but when desperation sets in, people have a tendency to not act rationally. So we plan to avoid desperation.

Unfortunately, I think James Kim became desperate which led him to make a bad choice and take risks he should have avoided. It's difficult to watch your family going hungry, especially when you hold yourself to blame.

We've all heard the old saying, "When you're lost in the backwoods and find a stream, follow it. It leads to civilization." Total speculation, but when someone leaves a road to follow a creek, they're losing rational thought, that's bad. You are already on a road, that leads to civilization too and it's easier walking.

Hopes and prayers go to the Kim family.

Especially in winter, extra gear is a must. I have a survival kit in a backpack, plus a Bibler tent, sleeping bag, and blankets that go in the trunk. Extra diesel fuel in a 2.5 gallon container, plus a multi-fuel stove that can burn it and a large pot for melting snow. Snow shovel, tire chains, gloves, car repair stuff.

After reading this story, I think I'll add some additional food, plus make some coffee can candle/melter kits. I often have a GPS, handheld ham radio, and cell phone with me (especially if I'm going backpacking/snow camping), but I think I'll make a communications kit and have that in there too. I usually have a PSK and PFAK with me at all times, but even though the main kit has all of that stuff and more, I think I'll make sure they're always on me anyway.

I think I'll add an axe and saw to the mix. Another thing that comes to mind is good maps and information on repeaters and other communications. The GPS can be preloaded with a lot of data, so that's a place to start, but since it could die or run out of batteries, I'll have to look at some other sort of backup and paper (tough given the scope of territory I drive through to get to the Sierra Nevada).

What else would we all add to the lists?

This may well serve as a classic example of why your should stay put! The big question in my mind, did he decide to go because he felt it was the only solution and his "duty" or because mom insisted? Lots of potential psychological dynamics in a situation such as this.

I'll note that a 406 MHz PLB would have gotten them rescued promptly.

According to the link it was private searchers hired by the family that found them. That means somebody missed them. They let somebody know where they were supposed to be, and that is the cardinal rule of wilderness travel.

If I were on a road, had snowshoes, and my family had been stuck for 9 days I'd probably chance walking out as well. I hope he makes it.

More likely than not, YOU wouldn't find yourself in such a dire situation so ill-prepared. <~>

Roger that, especially after having hung out here for awhile! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is always the need to do something so people find themselves doing the wrong thing. It's really tough to beat those feelings of helplessness, so you "go for help".

One of if not the primary kits I have is the one in my car. But I'd also have my GPS (long trip I'd both of them) which I could use to backtrack if I decided I had to walk out. More likely though, I set up camp, get a fire going, then have a cup of tea and dinner. It's an adventure, not an emergency. I'd check the GPS and maps to see where I was in relation to major roads. Then if I deided to walk out I'd orienteer my way out using the GPS bread crumb trail and logging road as a guide. I would not be busting brush or trying to follow and overgrowth laden stream. You are much more likely to be found walking on a logging road than following a stream to the Pacific.

Good point about the 406 MHz PLB. Relatively speaking, it's cheap insurance.

One question I'm interested in is whether they had a map with them. You cannot really tell from the publicized stories whether they got lost or whether they just got stuck. From all the different roads you mentioned though, it does sound like they may have had another simple misstep in not having a map and/or GPS.

After all, the best means of surviving any dangerous situation is to flat-out avoid it in the first place.

They should have watched this movie. Same place, virtually the same story.

I like the fact oriented analysis here.

A gps is a great solution, but $20 worth of food and a bunch of old winter jackets thrown in the car would have made the biggest difference. Nobody expects to get stranded or lost -- that's why its hard to think about preparing. 10 minutes planning makes a huge difference.

Teacher

Points of Interest on Kim Family travel



I bought my GyPSI 406 PLB when the Missus and I went on a single vehicle roadtrip to Toroweap. It was one of the first manufactured (manu date 5/2003) and cost me $700 or $800 at REI.

We were prepared for nearly any contingency with food/water for a week, onboard welder, CO2 gas, winch/hi-lift/shovel, 10 meter radio with MARS/CAP mods, GPS/DeLorme Gazeteers/compasses and plenty of reading material. Toroweap was problem-free but we did snap a control arm bolt in Escalante that got replaced with a hemostat and bailing wire.

Now that we have a Dear Son (15 mo), our daring road trips have been curtailed to trips back and forth to a rural cabin and to major metropolitan centers (no longer fly due to the humiliation of removing shoes).

The GyPSI has been collecting dust for the most part as our trips are "easy". Having read this story, the GyPSI will be getting a Yellow Etrex (mostly travel in mountainous regions without WAAS availability) with attaching cable and will be accompanying us on ANY travel out of our immediate hometown.

I definitely will be getting the battery replaced in 2008.

I think it's unrealistic to presume that you can't and won't deviate from a route unless you're flying a commercial jetliner. Travel involves exploration. That said, if you're in the mountains, in the winter, well, hey, it's good to be careful, but you can't get every contigency.

That's why I think the single best thing to buy in this case is a 406Mhz PLB.

Dollar for dollar worth more than all the gear you could possibly pack. If I was driving in a remote area, with no cell service, no ham radio, nothing at all, $2,000 worth of suplies would not equal the simple effectiveness of a PLB saying "Here I Am Come Get Me, Please"

heck, a satphone rental isn't that expensive either.

More details:

• Umbrella waved by Kati Kim had SOS spelled in reflective tape
• Helicopter that located Kati Kim and two children was privately chartered by concerned family members
• County officials had no choppers of their own for SAR. National Guard helicopters were available, but unknown if they were used in search attempts prior to discovery of Kati Kim.
• County Sno-Cat's had searched the area where the woman and children were found.
• Cellphone tower picked up ping from Kim cellphone at 0136 Nov. 26 which was used to concentrate search efforts
• James Kim's kit included a cigarette lighter in addition to clothing and footwear mentioned above

Yes and it would make a big difference to throw in wool trousers with suspenders (no belt, to allow clothes to be worn loose at the waist so that neither circulation nor ventilation is restricted) tucked in decent broken-in boots, a blaze orange (why not) watch cap, gauntlet style mitts (doesn't have to be Gore-Tex). My point is that it's pretty obvious that you should pack a warm jacket or parka but if you're going to wear jeans and tennis shoes it's not consistent. Last week I saw a guy wearing a Canada Goose Expedition parka in the mall downtown (Montréal) and it was raining outside! But he was wearing fashion jeans and sneakers.

Frankie

. . .or you could have a GPS receiver in the car so you don't miss the turn. I may eventually buy a 406 MHz PLB, but meanwhile I'll make due with staying on known roads, at least on roads known to my Garmin GPS. IMO, that first wrong turn was a major error in judgement.

How right you are! In all the training I do for Scout leaders, High Adventure crews and everyday Scouts I stress one concept more than any other - don't move! DON'T move! DON"T MOVE! And here the tragedy (perhaps - I pray Jim is found - and soon!) is compunded. Because in spite of being poorly pre-pared - this family did remarkably well. They did many things right - given their tough circumstances. But like most human tragedies there was one, critical error. That's the human condition and we must train to overcome it. I tell those I train that applying all the knowledge you gain - except one important piece (and it could be any one of any thousand) - and you're dead! THINK - THINK - THINK! Your greatest danger comes when you stop thinking and applying all the knowledge you have. Nuff said. Pray for Jim.

To be clear, the wise advice to stay put was followed for over one week before he headed out alone to try to save his family.

Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. Hindsight is always 20-20. I hope they find him soon.

I too pray he is found alive. I think we all here can agree that, decisions made, viewing it in the present, may seem irrational to us, but may have been seen as their only hope for rescue. I agree 100% that he shouldve stayed on the road. However, I think that he did what he felt was the only thing he COULD do to save his family. Unfortunately, it may have been a poor one. I am not a praying person at all, but, I sincerely hope that he is found alive. I Dont know which decision would be worse; watching your family slowly die in front of you, or attempting to find help, leaving your loved ones behind, with the very real chance of never seeing them again. A hard decision, to say the least.
All that being said, I carry a ruck in my jeep with enough gear to walk out, if needed. Winter time, I put in a Wiggy's bivy suit (Brit puffy synthetic jacket, pants, & hood), a goretex bivy sack, a box of granola bars, and a Z-rest, as well as my PSK, which is usually in there. Granted, this enhanced kit is specialized for winter; I wear a suit to work, and, given the wonderful new england weather, it is not ideal for a "I ran into a snowbank in a blizzard 10 miles from home" type of situation.

This incident is an easy one for us on this forum to critique. Look at this from another perspective, most people do not plan to be in a wilderness situation while driving down the highway and seldom foresee cicumstances to get out of control and compound. Many people depend on cell phones and fail to reailize they just seldom work off the beaten path, that may change someday, but I doubt it is finacially viable for cell phone carriers to put up towers where few travellers go.
It is real easy to go from a comfortable road trip to being stranded, even on an Interstate in a snowstorm you can be off the road, injured or stuck for many hours, in very short order. Having some items to help you stay warm, hydrated and safe does not take much planning, but it does take execution and truly few people are ready to cope with much outside their comfort zone. They just don't see it happening to them.
I can also understand what motivated Mr. Kim to take the risk of going for help, he had a wife and 2 beautiful children and in concern for their safety he made a decision to take a larger risk himself to bring help to his family. I truly pray that was not a fatal decision and Mr. Kim is found alive and well. He did a very brave thing regardless of "what he should have done". He was doing what he felt he must. I admire that and understand his decision, whether I agree with it or not.
Having said all that, this again brings to mind that all of us in the know on these matters, should share our knowledge with anyone we can to prevent this from happening again, if we only reach one person, that is progress.
PLB's are great but how many people are willing to invest that much money on something they foresee no real need for? GPS is a better investment in my eyes, just because it has a daily return on the investment. It will not get you rescued, it will keep you from getting lost on the wrong road. Which brings another aspect to mind, when is a road the wrong road? Why close a road because you don't want to plow it? Why not mark it closed to keep people from using it during the winter?
I can understand a person who regularly travels wild country or flys in a personal aircraft having interest in buying a PLB. The occasional highway driver just doesn't see the need, if they even know there is such a thing as a PLB.
I ramble, sorry. Let us all hope and pray for Mr. Kim, he deserves our support.

More newsbytes:

• Kati Kim is expected to lose a toe to exposure injury
• Trousers matching the description of James Kim's pants were found in the canyon. Although officials suggest it might be a marker to indicate his path of travel, wilderness medicine experts consider it to be a sign of delirium due to severe hypothermia. The gray pants had been worn over his blue jeans.
• County officials are using small rafts to travel up along the creek to search for signs of James Kim.
• "Heat-seeking" (?FLIR equipped) helicopters are being used to search for Kim.
• James Kim had outdoor experience as a car camper and met his wife on a camping trip.

Yep, my first thought when I read they found the trousers was "that's not good". They can put all the positive spin they want, but survival physiology tells me that his thermal regulation is losing the battle.

I think if he's found, he's had all the poke he needs to know to (a) stay with the car and (b) scenic roads in winter are a bit sketchy. I don't think any of us are damning him, but instead dissecting the incident based on the information given.

I heard the same piece browning did about finding his pants. It makes me thing we're going to need a sceance to reach him, and I hope I'm wrong, or better, that the newsies got it wrong.

That said, I think most of us here try to educate. But people, as a rule, don't want to listen: "Don't worry, I've done it a hundred times." Famous last words at number 101.

"I shouldn't be alive" on the discovery channel covered this incident as well.

And then, "Science of Survival" covered this incident again, this time mixed with Les Stroud from Survivorman giving pointers and demonstrations on how to tear up the vehicle for parts

http://science.discovery.com/tvlistings/...amp;channel=SCI

Update:

• Previous report regarding Kim carrying snowshoes may be incorrect
• Tonight will be Kim's fourth night in subfreezing temperatures

Current weather conditions in Grants Pass, OR

i read somewhere that Kim left with 2 lighters, and considering the area is heavily wooded, i would assume he would start a fire once the sun started going down. at least i hope thats what he's doing. anyone know if he took one of the car's mirrors with him? or any other critical supplies?

I'd say there is always a lot to be learned from someone else's victories and mistakes.



At first, I thought it was just a short gully he went into and figured he ditched his pants to wade in for some water to drink, but video on TV shows that this is VERY rugged terrain. Google Maps shows that it is pretty steep also. To retrieve the pants, they had to lower a guy from a chopper hovering over the trousers.

Everyday worsens the outlook for sure. Barometric pressure is dropping with hi humidity and increase in wind this weekend. 20-60% chance of precipitation on Saturday and Sunday.



It's sad, but James Kim's most recent write-up on CNET was about the Zune media player ($250). For the price of 2 Zunes or Ipods, he could have purchased an inexpensive 406 PLB like the FastFind. With a PLB, he and Kati would be stressing out over a $3000 tow out on a snowy frozen NF road instead of this horrific nightmare.

There are a lot of gadget bloggers following this. I hope they are able to increase awareness regarding PLB's. This may be a double-edged sword, though, as there is increased ownership of PLB's there will inevitably be increased false alarms and misutilization of limited SAR resources. Increased demand might also drive down per unit cost, however.

This may also increase understanding of the limitations of the cellular network, whether for handheld or On-Star systems.

Update:

• James Kim had printed out a Mapquest route but requested a scenic route from Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce
• The visitor center rep printed a map but counselled the family not to take the route as it would most likely be after dark.
• GeoEye's Ikonos imaging satellite with 39" resolution will be rerouted over the search area Dec 6 1030 to take images in search of Kim. Unclear who will analyze images for use in ground and air search.

It seems like he perhaps thought he was cutting switchbacks when he went off road. However, crashing brush in the NW is not something for the faint hearted.

It can be very difficult terrain to traverse and very easy to get disoriented. Esp. if you don't have detailed maps and a good sense of where you are in relationship to the map.

And normally you will get wet. Very wet. Perhaps it was frozen enough to prevent that, but if so, that has it's own problems.

And it's easy to get hurt. It's slippery, uneven, there are lots of holes, roots, rotted logs, etc.

I wish him and his family the best, but it's a pretty bad scene IMO.

As others have observed, it's easy to get caught off guard. Even when you focus on being prepared, it's easy to be caught.

For example, I just flew to San Jose for a couple days, and as a result I tore my kit apart and have yet to get it back together.

Likewise, we were hauling some stuff the other day and it took days for me to remember to re-load the kits into the Jeep.

Hopefully this will help remind people (it certainly has reminded me) that we do need to stay prepared, because things don't happen at convenient times.

While I agree a PLB would be optimal in a situation like this, I don't think it is reasonble to expect most people to purchase one. If the extent of their outdoor activities were car camping, they just are not going to see the need.

Personally, I think the most leveraged thing they could have had was clothing. Perhaps is he was better equipped, he might have stayed with the car. Perhaps if he was better equipped he wouldn't have feel compelled to leave the road.

Clothes. Boots. The ability to start a fire. And some food.

-john

It's not a matter of missing a turn or not - it's a matter of missing a turn, going oh heck, and not being able to turn back to get to the correct turn, or, as I've found with my in-car GPS, missing a turn. but seeing an alternate route just ahead anyway, so no biggie, right? I'd be stunned if there was NOT a GPS in that vehicle.
But at this point, I think the game is over - they found his PANTS - which is a very, very bad sign.

If true then this is very grim news indeed.

posted by JohnN:


i know exactly what you mean. i've been meaning to repack my FAK, adjust my daypack for cooler weather, etc, for a few weeks now. its so easy to put it off, but you're so right, this is a good reminder to keep your gear ready.

I'm with you, brother. I flew back from Houston last week, so my on-person EDC and man-purse got completely turned upside down due to flying restrictions.

Regarding the James Kim situation:

1. It is easy to say "stay with the car/plane wreck" and it is usually true but there are situations where you either walk out or die. For example the Stolpa family, and that Air Force guy & his son lost on the snowy mountain in Turkey.

2. When I heard the news about SAR finding Kim's pants, the story also mentioned that they were using thermal detection devices. My immediate reaction was "won't matter, because his body temperature is now matching the ground temperature".

3. I have been studying real-life survivor accounts lately via "I Shouldn't Be Alive" DVDs and books like "Adrift". I really feel for the plight of the survivors in an expanded way because you begin to sense how iffy every decision can be. In "Adrift", Callahan describes how every decision he made had an upside and a very real potential downside.

There are few easy decisions in these situations. I pray the Kim family will find peace through all of this.

Looks like a body was just found.
I wish the best for his family after this terrible loss.

Perhaps SOME good might come of this, as it may bring to light the potential for tragedy and the ened to be prepared...even if you're just driving home.

One of the Seattle TV stations just had a gal from REI do a segment on winter travel and goodies to have. She included AN (as in one) energy bar for food. Anyone think that you can stretch one energy bar into any length of time at all???

A sad ending. Condolences to the family, and sincere thanks to all of the searchers.

This is very sad news Izzy, although we were all expecting it here. I don't have much experience in the outdoors but reading 98.6 by Cody Lundin was an eye opener where he stresses so much the importance of thermo-regulation.

The avg american could actually benefit from missing a meal or two or ten.

My condolences to the Kim family, really sad.

For those who are unfamiliar with the area, take a look at the slide show Here. The ruggedness of the terrain is beautiful to see when you're driving through on I-5 in a nice warm car. Check out the shots of the helo.


(AP Photo/Oregon State Police/HO)

The terrain is very rugged, not an area to get lost in and start breaking a new trail.

Yes, as I was saying, it's hard to understand just how difficult it is until you've spent a little time out there.

My hat is off to all the searchers. It's truely a very difficult job.

-john

While I agree (heck, I'm one of them), recall that you need at least some food to have enough energy to burn fat instead of muscle.

-john

I'm not familiar with the exact term but I am familiar with the concept of undressing when you are confused with the temperature.

I noted with some interest when I first read the story about what the temperatures and locale were like because I would compare that to my local conditions. Every year, people attempt to walk out, away from their vehicle and to safety and sadly do not make it and pass away.

About 4-5 weeks ago, a similar local story where a native fellow went off road and got stuck in a snow bank (recent first snows of the year) and decided to walk out. They found his body about 2-3 kms away from his vehicle, the temperature was "only -5*C" but he was inadequately dressed. Not knowing when to stay with your vehicle or being poorly equipped often leads to tragedy.

Contrast that with 2 hunters who were on a gravel road (not far from where I was also travellling that day) got caught in a snowstorm and their vehicle went off the road. They did the smart thing and stayed with the vehicle and kept warm by running the engine and were found the next day. Happy ending.

Now - back to James Kim. Their vehicle was stuck off road in a infrequently travelled area. And they DID stay with the vehicle for several days until ultimately they ran out of fuel and their measly provisions and still were not found. He made the go/no go decision to leave even though he was poorly equipped. In hindsight, yes it was the wrong decision, but at the time, he and his family were probably desperate and he was weakened by lack of food. Being in their situation, most people would have done the same thing as he.

Hear Hear!

We should all pack our vehicle kits with appropriate gear for the terrain and weather to be encountered. As I live on the Canadian prairies where the roads are sparsely used and the weather is more severe that most Americans can even imagine let alone have experienced - it pays to be adequately prepared.

In addition to the items you listed in your Florida kit - a Canadian kit would include things like a shovel, road salt or kitty litter or traction aids, tow kit, blankets, candles or other source of heat, charcoal warmers, food, etc. for starters. A cell phone is great but if you just happen to be in a weak/no signal area it isn't going to help you much. A PLB would be great but with every rescue there is always the abuse/misuse of this worthwhile item.

Why? The vast majority of vehicles aren't sold with a GPS and judging from the specs of the particular vehicle (a link was posted earlier), I think it was unlikely he had one. I personnaly know only 1 person who even has this in their vehicle.

A GPS is not a substitute for a map and orientating yourself properly to it.

Probably because as an editor at Cnet he was very likely a gadget-guy. And probably had the income to spend on such gadgets.

As an aside, it is possible he had one. A built in GPS may not do much good in a situation like this since he couldn't take it with him. Likewise, a road oriented GPS likely wouldn't have things like Forest Service roads. I was under the impression they were on a FS road.

Again, lots of food for thought.

-john

Very sad, I know we were all hoping for a miracle here. I pray for Mr. Kim's family and for James, despite any mistake he made, and he made several, he tried his best to look after his family in a dire situation. Very commendable in my book.
I hope this raises interest in preparedness to someone, maybe a few tragedies can be prevented.

Also note that a GPS whether in the vehicle or hand held may also be quite useless in rugged heavily treed terrain. They need a signal from a min. of 2 satellites to get a position and the more satellites the better and more accurate they are.

That's why I say, make your first method of orientation be your map. They are a whole lot cheaper than a GPS and are available practically everywhere. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been following this story really closely also. I'm really sad to hear that he didn't survive. I can relate what he was going through, and believe it or not, I think I would have done almost the same things as he had done. I actually make many of the same "mistakes" that he had made, and will probably continue to do so. I usually don't have a set itinerary, I regularly take backroads whenever possible, and I almost always deviate from my original plan. Honestly, I can't imagine ever doing it differnently. It would be pretty boring to go through life following the same path as everyone else, always following the same routine. Almost all of my memorable experiences have come from deviating from the routine and exploring the unknown. This doesn't mean i go out and take dangerous risks, but I also don't fool myself into think I can be fully prepared for every possible outcome. Nobody can be prepared for EVERY possible scenario, life is about taking calculated risks, if you don't want to feel unprepared you'd probably never leave your house.

About the only difference is I probably carry quite a bit more stuff than he might have in that same situation, and I don't have a family to worry about. If I did have a family, then I would have to adjust some of my priorities accordingly.

In this particular situation, I can almost follow his thinking right down to the moment he got stuck, because I think almost the same way. He was out visiting friends or relatives, and was taking a vacation with his family. On the way back home, he picks up a map (or looks up directions on the internet) and decides to head toward his destination. He may or may not have checked the weather, but decides to take the route shown on his map. I'm still not clear whether he knew that the road was closed for the winter. I'm assuming he probably didn't know, because if he did most likely he would not have continued. Some people have critiqued him for taking a different route, or straying from his itinerary. I'm thinking maybe he just wanted to drive a more scenic route, maybe he thought it was shorter, maybe the map showed it as going through. Either way, I normally don't call friends relatives when I'm on vacation just because I decide I've had a change of plans. I may give an itinerary, but more often than not it's just a rough and very conservative itinerary, because there will always be unforseeable delays and I normally don't like to vacation on a timetable, always trying to keep on schedule, or maybe he just forgot. I do that quite often, so I understand how he could get easily himself into that situation.

Even though some people might not think differently. I think James and his family were reasonably prepared for travel. Why? Because he was able to keep a family of 4 alive for 9 days out in the wilderness. If you were to equate that to a single person, that's over a month worth of surviving (maybe less since two of them were children). I say reasonably prepared, because most people are not thinking of spending a week out in the wilderness while on a family vacation, so to say he didn't have an axe, food for a week, winter clothes, 4 season tent, showshoes, snowmobile, etc.., is being a little too critical (from some other forum's comments I've seen). It's easy to say what we would bring if we were in that situation knowing what we would know now, but how much stuff would people actually take on vacation with them, especially with all of the normal stuff for 2 little kids in a small station wagon? Either way, I would NOT say he was completely UNPREPARED for travel. How many people here think they could keep a family of 4 alive for that length of time with what they normally carry?

After seeing the outcome, everyone would agree that he had made the wrong decision, but it's hard to say what exactly is the right decision in a case like this. Being in that same situation, I think I might also have tried to walk out and look for help. Generally, it is usually a better idea to stay with the car, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement to say you should ALWAYS stay in the car. He was there for 7 days and no signs of rescue, how much longer is he expected stay in the car and just wait while his family is probably close to dying? I'm pretty sure most people in that same situation, not knowing whether people were searching for them, or whether they had called of the search, probably would have done the same thing. Just like that family that was trapped in the RV for 17 days up in Oregon. They stayed put for 17 days, nobody came to rescue them, in fact, I think the searches were called off and they were assumed dead. It was only because 2 of them walked out for help that they were found. In a case like this, there are just too many variables to be able to have a strict set of rules on what should and should not be done. It could have easily been a different story had he found help, or had he stayed with the car and the whole family dies of hypothermia.

In this case it was just a series of wrong (not necessarily bad,) decisions and unfortunate luck. I wish it could have turned out differnetly for the family.

Boy, if that helicopter pic was from the search, that doesn't look like a
place I would want to be long lining.

A sad story about a young local man years ago. He was missing from his home,
police and family looked everywhere. That fall his jeep and body were found
just down the hill from his house after the leaves fell. Apparently he had
some sort of stroke or siezure and his jeep rolled down the hill, off the
road into some bushes and no one thought to look there.

He stayed with his vehicle for months!!

You need to stay put, and, as Ms. Kim did, you need to use some sort of
attraction as best you can.

I could see myself get into a macho trap if I was the lone male among one or more females. There would be pressure for the male to risk walking for help.

Doug, After we get more facts, will you do a comprehensive analytical article on this incident<

I do agree with your general comments about the limitations of hand held GPS units. I've hiked in this type of terrain and GPS coverage is certainly spotty. However, I would like to point out that typically you can find a hole in the tree cover and stand still and get a bearing.

Also, the new SiRF-III based units such as the Garmin 60CSx do much better in difficult cover.

That said, your point about cheap leveraged solutions reminded me that even a small, cheap compass can be a highly leveraged aid, even with gross level landmarks/maps. Especially when dealing with rugged terrain.

-john

Excellent comments and analysis. Most seem to agree that with better attention to problem avoidance in the first place, coupled with more equipment and supplies should a problem develop, the ending of this story would have been very different. However, I respect and understand Mr. Kim's decision in the end to try to hike out to save his family.

After one full week of waiting in the vehicle for rescue, it was probably reasonable from Kim's perspective to think that either any search had by then been called off, or that it was being conducted in the wrong area. Reasonable decisions made under stressful conditions in real time in the field with limited information at hand are not always the best decisions in 20-20 hindsight.

For Kim it was time for Plan B. I might have tried the same thing, the only difference being that I would have been better dressed and better equipped given where they were.

My condolences to Kim's family and friends. May his soul rest in peace.

As I recall the story about the plane crash in the Andes Mts., the people survived for a long time by eating their deceased companions. They were finally rescued when two of them walked off in search of help. If those two had stayed, they all would have died, as no one was looking for them. I have read other stories where the people lived only because they walked out. You must decide: stay with the vehicle or go.

I have to agree with you, his decisions both on the level of equipment he carried and how he reacted to the situation were about par. He did well to keep his family alive for a week or more before making the decision to go for help. His decisions were well with in the confines of reason (until hypothermia started to take him of course), and his family survived if he didn't.

People on this forum generally have a skewed way of looking at the situation. I know I do. My went on car trips similar to what was described in the article. The difference, and what has shaped my perspective, is that my dad had spent several years organizing summer field camps on the north slope of Alaska. In driving around Wyoming in a smaller car then Kim was driving he still made sure to carry a two person cowboy sleeping roll, a stove, food, and a variety of other things. I know now thats optimal, but not typical.

So, even though he died, I think Kim did fairly well for a typical level of preparation. Maybe it will spur a few people to a survival mindset. But that level of preparation will continue to be typical and result in amazing survival tales and tragic news stories.

• Searchers found more articles of clothing strewn about the ravine in a haphazard fashion
• Helicopter crew located human form face down
• Some reports indicate body in a creek
• Corpse identified as James Kim
• Medical examiner to perform post-mortem

It has to do with the thing about "when you start feeling warm, you're in trouble" rule with hypothermia and frost bite. Never heard the technical name, but it sounds like a scary, scary place.

I hadn't heard he was close to a camp. *shakes head* I kinda figured they'd find him within a few hundred yards of a main road or a building. Too often it is so close and so far to safety. That they held out as long as they did is a sign they did things right once they got stuck- he just had bad luck when he went to Plan B, and there is no other way to describe it that I can think of.

May his next life be a joyous one and as well lived as this one.

It's such a tragedy. He was a hero.
Quite a bit of this on the gadget forums and in the AP reports. Sad, no doubt, but the underlying message is that he was a man victimized by circumstance and the indifferent elements. Unfortunately, this whitewashes the serial obvious and not so obvious mistakes that led to his demise. It's probably unreasonable for people in shock and sorrow to think critically about Kim's actions, but, for most people following the story, the last thought about James Kim before closeting the story away will be "It could happen to anybody. *Shrug* Oh, well..."

What a fool! I knew it would turn out this way.
Blaming the "victim" is a common way to distance oneself from an uncomfortable situation. It also leads to the mindset "That could NEVER happen to me because...<fill in blank>". This is a more insidious response as it causes the unconsciously incompetent individual to not think about what they don't really know (about the incident or one's own limited skillset/preparation).

This was completely preventable! They should pass a law!
Already saw this one on CNET's talkback. The government should pass a law that allows SAR to immediately get records of cellphone pings. Other variations include "If only Josephine County officials had : sought volunteer searchers, dispatched helicopters earlier in the search, put gates and signs up on the road, etc." This response will get more vociferous in the days ahead as more details regarding the government and non-governmental role in the incident becomes apparent. It may not reach Katrina proportions, but a lot of people adopting this stance will get some comfort that they won't need to prepare because the government will take care of it.

I'm hopeful that investigators will release a detailed timeline of what happened to this family, so that we can learn from the death of James Kim. We can use this thread as a tool to teach preparedness mindset, skillset and kit to those that we care about. It should serve as a resource that comes up high when people Google "james.kim survival" and perhaps saves one family from another nightmare like this.

Until we have more information to analyze, I'd just offer that we reflect on the loss of this family and pray that the Lord will ease the anguish of the Kim and Fleming family and protect Kati, Penelope, and Sabine in the years ahead.

even though i knew his chances were slim, my stomach still dropped when i saw the news. i can't help it but my mind has been racing since i first heard they were missing and now i can't stop thinking about the scenario. i too would love to see Doug break it down and give some critical analysis. how effective would a well maintained signal fire have been in this situation? it looks like there are plenty of evergreen branches and damp underbrush to create plenty of smoke.

I am confused and have a question. According to the link below the body was found about 1/2 mile from the car BUT the father walked about 8 miles. How is this possible? Was he walking in circles or am I missing something

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/missing.family/index.html

Great post Ducttapeguy! (No relation)

I too watched the winter survial shows a couple of weeks ago. The Kim's even did what Les Stroud talked about...lighting the tires on fire.

Sort of, that is from the link ==>

"Using a map, authorities showed that Kim had headed south and west for about three miles before entering the drainage area and following it eastward -- in the direction he came from -- for about five miles."

A couple of random things I wanted to throw out.

1) They were using thermal imaging in the search. It seems to me that more effective use of fire could have helped greatly in his rescue.

2) It sounds like the family funded significaint parts of the search including the employment of search helicopters. I'm not quite sure what this means (I certainly don't begrudge them for applying their resources to the problem), except that rescue may have been slower for those w/o the ability to charter such services and perhaps that needs consideration in preparing for such an event.

3) While obviously I don't know what really happened, it keeps troubling me that he didn't seem to make effective use of fire to regulate his heat. Growing up in southeast Alaska, you consider the primary thing you need to do to stay alive is to keep warm. Thus a lot of thought about fire. There was wood in the area and the reports indicate he had some lighters. Even if I was going to try to walk out, I would have stopped, built a fire to warm up periodically.

4) And why burn the tires when there is wood? It sounds like it has been reported to stay warm, but I suspect it was more likely that he was hoping for smoke which might be spotted. Perhaps he didn't tell his wife this for fear of alarming her.

-john

I'm grieving for the loss of this brave man. It is a testimony to their resourcefulness that, with very little kit, they managed to survive (in good condition apparently) for seven days. Still, the meaning behind this is not second guessing, but learning. I've asked my self over and over - why not more fire? We might not never know what they tried to do about that - and perhaps failed. But for me, after seven days I would have tried to burn down the d**n woods! A tire piled against all the brush I could gather under some small trees . . . What does this forum think about a major conflagration try in such a situation? There should be some "safety zone" since it was on a road.

I have to agree with the sentiment that after 7 days of waiting, of setting singal fires, of watching your kids freeze and running out of supplies, what would you expect? The only thing - and I mean the only thing - I think that I would have had as an advantage in that situation is that I usually have a set of turnout gear in my vehicles, which include heavy boots and makes incredibly effective winter wear. But it's HEAVY and not suited for long hikes. I doubt that I would have been able to sustain a long hike in turnout gear. Doug mentioned a 406 Mhz PLB, and I have to admit, I've always thought of those as something for aviation and marine applications, but perhaps a reconsideration is in order if I were to decide to travel way in the back woods like that. But all in all, we have to look at the outcome as a lesson learned for all of us - the fantasy scenarios we all cook up are exactly what happened here, and the outcome was tragic. My kids are about the same range as his, I just can't help but think of what the 4 year old is asking mommy tonight.

Not being familiar with that area (can anyone provide a UTM waypoint for the car?), did Mr. Kim even have a chance to survive? How far would he have had to walk to get to the nearest civilization?

This event/thread is really making me think about purchasing a PBL. My family is going to visit Glacier National Park next year. We're going by train so we'll have to pack relatively light (minimum kit). I can't help but think how easy it might be to take a wrong turn, drive a few miles, and then for one reason or another get stuck. Sigh.

My wife would think I'm nuts for spending $600 on a little box that I hope not to ever use.

Ken K.

I wouldn't have lasted a week before I'd've walked out too. The advantage I have is a kit that I dig into occassionally when I travel to WA State. I hike logging roads there and have gear for it that I carry with me (along with other equipment).

Another advantage is that I travel alone so I wouldn't have a wife and children weighing on my mind and in Kim's situation that was serious weight. I don't think any of us can judge James Kim's decision making with our 20-20 knowledge of the events.

Even the staunchest voices saying to always stay with the car would have eventually walked out if they'd been sitting in the seat of that Saab. I'll critique the decisions that led to becoming stranded, but I won't judge any decisions he made once stuck in the snow.

<<My wife would think I'm nuts for spending $600 on a little box that I hope not to ever use>>

Such is the inherent nature of pure survival equipment. I'd like to get a better read on what could be done with cell phone pinging and aGPS such as Verizon has in their phones.

Ken ask her if you could spend $400 on a ham radio, $15-25 on an antenna and see if she feels better about that or would she have you spend it on a PLB?
Mike <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

While I agree with most of your post, I must take issue with this. I carry all of those things in my vehicle year round (except for the snowmobile of course, and the snowshoes--which I am going to add asap). I could easily keep 4 people alive for 9 days under those conditions.

For the most part I too think they did well under the circumstances, but if we are to learn anything from this tragedy then we need to also identify their mistakes and discuss what could have been done to eliminate them. Hindsight is 20/20--that's why it is so useful.

The Missus thought the PLB was a relatively inexpensive purchase for the peace of mind. I think in view of the recent news coverage, your wife may be more amenable to a PLB purchase now more than ever again.

I couldn't get this tragedy out of my head last night. On the way to work this morning I kept thinking the same thing. Get the biggest fire going possible. With all that snow there is no chance of burning down the forrest so do whatever it takes to put out as much smoke as possible. So along with the shovel, kitty litter, etc. we should all have saw in the back of the car. Even the little saw on a Multi-Tool would have been able to cut off a lot of branches.

If that is your strategy make sure you order it now, because the shock & horror will wear off & the missus won't be so willing to fork over the $$$ down the road. It's like right after 9/11 the people in this country were willing to do whatever it took, but as time goes by we forget...

One of the guys who I work with used to work for Motorola. He said that the helicopter listening for the ping probably needed to stay very low to avoid other cell phone traffic - that they probably had to sweep back and forth through the ravines until they heard the ping, then they would need to triangulate the ping to determine the location.

I wonder if anyone in major tourist areas (Glacier National Park) would start a business renting out PLB's?

I'd like to know more about the tire buring bit.

How does one light a tire, 'specially if you are already out of gas? And how do you get heat from it? Sit around it like a campfire, trying to avoid the smoke, light it near an open door and try to heat the inside of the vehicle while somehow avoiding the smoke?

And, if the choppers were already looking for them when the tire burning went on, I wonder why the black smoke was not spotted...

Just for kicks, I went to ebay and checked the prices of PLB's. The lowest price shown is $545 (buy it now), plus $10 shipping. I will try to keep an eye on the costs to see if they go up...

I've read that a vehicle is a heat sink and if there's enough snow it's better to build a snow trench or build a shelter but you need the material like a collapsible shovel, two Evazote® foam pads and a winter sleeping bag and a small home made stove made of tea candles but it takes room and this is theoretical. (I'm not analysing or criticizing this scenario)

Frankie

Different situations call for different solutions. It's good that you go prepared for these emergencies, I know I carry a lot of stuff too, but I don't have a wife and kids to worry about, and I know when I go on a trip I have a higher chance of being in a situation like this. But we have to look at this from the perpective of a man with two kids going on a family vacation. First, what do you think was his probability of getting in that situation, and two, what would a rational person have done under the same circumstances?

Number one. if he was your friend, and came to talk to you before the trip, what would you have said his chances were of getting stuck for 9 days? I know people say now that it's obvious, that there was a very high risk, but if you were to think about it before he left, what do you really think his chances were?. If you think about it objectively, millions of people travel under the same conditions and risk everyday, and millions of them make it through without a problem. Even if there was a 1% chance of them getting stuck in the snow, would you think they would be there for 9 days? .01%? .00001%? Would you recommend spending $600 for a PLB knowing the chances of using it are slim to none? Let's not forget that he was not out there to explore the backcountry and did not purposely set out to find a really remote area, he was on a family vacation and was simply trying to get from one place to another.

Also, under the same conditions, what would a rational person be expected to carry? Again, we have to remember that he's from San Francisco, where it NEVER snows. So should he have gone out to buy all new winter gear + $600 PLB, for the remote chance that he would possibly need it? Again, I'm thinking from the point of view of before he left for his trip, not knowing what we know now. But let's assume he goes skiing in Tahoe, so maybe they do have some winter gear. He's on a family vacation with 2 little kids, just out to visit relatives. I know very well the type of car he was driving in, and I know there isn't much storage space. After 2 strollers for the kids, and the kids diaper bag, I'm surprised if he had room for maybe one bag for he and his wife, let alone any survival stuff and bulky winter clothes. I have a larger car than he had, and I know even on a short weekend camping trip for only 2 people, I could fill it up to the roof and still not feel completely prepared.

Around my area, tens of millions of people travel to Vegas every year, and any one of them has the possibility of getting stuck in the desert for a week. Should they all carry a weeks worth of water for a carload of people, some 40-80 gallons? If they get stuck, then yes, it seems obvious that the possibility was there, so they should have prepared for it. But most people weigh the cost and/or convienence vs. risk, and carry nothing more than a cellphone and wallet. It is hard to justify the reasoning behind preparing for something that has a very low probability of happening. It's like trying to convince someone from the midwest to buy earthquake insurance, or someone in California to buy hurricane insurance. You look at the probability, and compare that with the cost, and it just doesn't make sense from a rational point of view.

I look at all this as an unfortunate accident, nothing more. I don't consider him reckless, I don't think he took uneccessary chances, and I don't think there was a whole lot more he could have done under the circumstances. A lot of people are saying how all this could have been avoided if only he had done this, or not done that. Techinically, they're right. IF he hadn't gotten lost, IF he had more equipment for him and his family, IF he had checked the weather or IF he had just stayed at home, then he'd still be alive. But saying this could have been avoided is like saying you can avoid ALL car accidents by being careful. IF you always leave enough space for the car in front of you, IF you always check both ways before crossing the intersection, IF you stay away from other cars and never leave the house. Like I said, you can never be prepared for every scenario, no matter what you do, no matter how well you prepare, sometimes things happen and you get caught up in a situation like this. I find it ironic that if this were Les Stroud and his family in this same situation, people would probably be commenting on how good he was to be able to keep his family alive for so long with so little, and how brave he was to go and try and find help for his family. I doubt people would be saying he had no business being out there, as they are saying about James.

I would like to see Doug or someone else do an analysis or review of this situation. But rather than giving the already obvious advice of he should have had a PLB, he should have had a GPS, he should have left an itinerary (I think all those have been covered pretty well), I'd rather see it from a layman's point of view. Had he been carrying a small, basic, survival kit, what could he have done? Because I look at the stuff I carry, and the situation he was in, and i don't know if any of my stuff would have given him an advantage. They had a lighter, they had enough food to keep them alive, they had water, My tarp and knife wouldn't be much help considering they had shelter and fire, nobody was injured so the first aid kit wouldn't be of much help. Better clothes and shoes MAY have helped, but it might have just given him reason to walk out earlier. He may have been able to go farther with better equipment, but how would that have helped? It could have just gotten him further away from the car and futher from rescue. About the only thing that I carry that I think would have significantly helped them is, I carry tire chains. I'm wondering if they had the same. I know they had an AWD station wagon, but that's still no substitute for tire chains in the snow, no matter what the marketing guys say.

Even without any high-tech tools (which I think are awesome) or even some basic tools they had the survival game beat.

1. Had the shelter of the car to keep them out of the wind & dry. Plus the heat of 4 human bodies huddled together under whatever clothing, etc. thrown on top.

2. All the water they needed from melting snow over the fire that they had.

All they were lacking was some basic food calories to keep them alive long enough for help to arrive. If they had had that he wouldn't have been under the pressure to try to hike out.

A 6 pound jar of peanut butter ($6.42 at Sam's Club) and a couple boxes of Ritz Crackers would have bought them a couple more weeks. 16,000 calories in the peanut butter & 4,480 calories from the two boxes of crackers would have given them 1,462 calories a day if rationed out over 14 days. I would have given the breast feeding mother a little more than myself & the older daughter.

The father & older daughter could have easily gone an additional 14 days on top of that without any food as long as they could stay warm & drink enough water. I'm not sure on the baby & nursing mother?

I'm not against PLB, GPS, etc. on the technology. And all for a good signal fire. But some very cheap food calories would have saved his life very easily. IMO

The mountain men used to hole up all winter long as long as they had enough food to get them through.

I don't doubt that a properly built shelter outside of the car would have been better especially if the temps started dropping even further. However, their shelter was sufficient simply based on the fact that the mom & two kids are doing great now.

I would say it doesn't matter what the chances of getting stuck are. People do get stuck, and if you are one of those unlucky few that do, you'd best be prepared.

I’ve not recommended a PLB, though it’s a good idea if you can afford it. I can’t right now. For about 1/3rd of that they could have had a pair of snowshoes, a tarp, a map, a compass, a signal mirror, and enough food to get through the ordeal.

The items I mentioned above would hardly take up much room, about the size of a medium-sized toolbox.

Yep. And I hope a lot of people can learn from this situation. I’m already rethinking some of my gear choices because of it.

So we should never prepare for a survival situation or analyze one after the fact because sometimes people die in spite of their preparations? Sorry, with all due respect, that is just flat-out wrong. (BTW it is still a good idea to look both ways and still a good idea to avoid tailgating even if doing so won't prevent all accidents.)

Via con Dios James
My family and I will keep your family in our prayers.

Re the Air Force guy and his son: I presume that you saw the reconstruction on one of the Ray Mears programs? The thing's that struck me most strongly about that little debacle where:
1) His total lack of preparation.
2) A properly employed Ritter PSK would have gotten him and his son rescued.

I was sorry to read about James, but after that lenth of time I would also be thinking along the lines of do I go for help, or do I sit there and watch my wife and kids perish?

I think that he was an ordinary, decent family man who was about out of options and it was try, succeed or die trying time.

Nuff said.

Path graphics that I found on the Hoodlums Forum post #39. Not a walk for the casual camper.

I did some research on PLBs last night after reading this thread.

There's a PLB rental site:

PLB Rental

They seem pretty affordable. This is not the end all solution, but an option.

I'd like to add a couple tidbits into the PLB discussion here…

Yes, they are high-tech and they signal Search and Rescue very quickly to your specific location, which is why they are so expensive. They do their job and they do it well.

But a PLB is not the only solution for attracting attention to yourself. As others have said, a good signal fire would work as well, or snap the mirrors off the car and start shining everything that moves. Another great option is to have one or two (or more) RescueStreamers. These aren't just made for water, and they pack small and are much less expensive than a PLB!

Note that Kati Kim and the two children were spotted by a chartered helicopter by waving an umbrella with a reflective "SOS" on it. Using the RescueStreamer(s) to draw an orange line or "V" in the snow would have made a much larger, more noticeable, and passive signal. Hell, you could even throw one up a tree to give your signal a vertical aspect.

As Doug states in several locations throughout his articles, preparation involves redundancy. You don't just get yourself a PLB and think, "Hah! I'm set for every situation!" The moment you start thinking that is the moment the PLB's antenna falls off or the battery falls out and rolls off a cliff. The idea of emergency supplies is to give yourself several effective methods to get yourself out and to keep you alive until that happens.

To conclude, while being a great addition to any survival kit, a PLB is not the only option to consider and it is also not a 100% solution to every problem.

the rearview mirror of a typical car seems like it would make a good improvised signal mirror. i assume the surface would be pretty even because its made from glass. has anyone experimented with one?

Wow! that is amazing graphics of the path. All the different angles really puts it in perspective. He covered a lot of ground.

Of course we can 2nd guess him all day long, but I would be curious why he didn't start back the road going down hill right away?

Norad45 said:
(sigh). This is the point. Your car could catch on fire, so you had better buy a fire extinguisher. You or a family member may have a heart attack -- better carry an AED. Just in case on tsunami, carry an inflatable raft and life jackets.

It is easy to jump on the bandwagon of "carry more stuff," but unless you want to take you family on vacation with an 18-wheeler, there are very hard limits of what you can carry. In the 98.6 book, Cody Lundun says that you need to be prepared to survive for at least three days. This guy more than doubled that, yet it still wasn't enough. The simple fact is that you can absolutely never prepare for everything. I would like to think that I am more prepared than the average person, yet I cannot honestly say that I would have an excellent chance of survival in such an environment for a week and a half.

The usual advice is always to "stay put." This guy also followed that advice for a whole week. He only set out after it appeared that staying put would not result in success. He did not have a crystal ball, so he could not know how soon help was coming. It is possible that his family might still be stuck out there even today. Staying put is true in MOST cases, but in some instance, it is just waiting to die. And without knowing the future, you do not know with 100% certainty which action is the right one. Clearly, the "staying put" option did nothing for a whole week, so he figured that it was time to try something different.

In short, I admire the guy and his family for lasting as long as he did. It is easy to play armchair quarterback, but it is a whole different thing to be in the game.

(Double sigh) So your advice is to not to carry any gear because you can't possibly plan for all scenarios? Of course not. So we discuss what to carry all the time. I prefer to plan for the most likely scenarios I am going to face. That does not include tsunami, but it does include being snowbound. I respectfully suggest that if you are going to be traveling in the mountains in winter that you are better off planning for the latter rather than the former.

I've nothing but respect and sympathy for Mr. Kim and his family. However, if discussing and learning from their experience--including their possible mistakes--makes me an armchair quarterback then so be it. I'd rather avoid disaster than survive it any day.

No, I saw the I Shouldn't Be Alive: Ice Cave Survivor show.



Absolutely agreed. A simple fire would likely have saved his son from frostbite, and some basic signaling (including smoke from said fire) would have attracted the attention of the helicopters that flew nearby multiple times.

The recommended 72 hours of a survival kit is meant to serve as a buffer. This buffer is an amount of time that you have needed resources readily available, such as water, shelter, food, and fire, for enough time to construct or acquire additional resources for additional time.

For example, you don't just carry 72 hours of water and stop at that. You also build a fire to melt snow, carry water purification supplies, use stills, transpiration bags, sponges, etc. to gather additional water.

I agree that you cannot carry everything and cannot prepare for everything. That's why we all visit and read Doug's work here to find out what equipment is the most essential, effective, and versatile to have for maximum efficiency.

Exactly! Nobody here is saying you shouldn't be prepared, but it DOES make a big difference what the chances are. People also get shot, but we don't walk around wearing bulletproof vest all day. There's a much greater risk of us falling on a slippery surface and splitting our head open, but we don't wear helmets. You get my point. Assesing the risk is part of being prepared. If you're preparing for an event that has a very small likelyhood of happening, you've just crossed the line from being prepared to being paranoid.



I would like to know what other people would have done in that situation, with what you currently carry in the car. For the sake of discussion and analysis, let's assume he did bring all this stuff with him, what would that have accomplished? We'll say he had the forsight to pack along a pair of snowshoes on a family vacation when he had absolutely no plans on being in the snow. I still don't see how that might have helped. He had already walked 8 miles, even if you increase that to 20 or 30 miles, how would that have guaranteed sucess? Maybe he would have reached that lodge that was closed for the winter, but he's still stranded outside. What good would a 4 season tent have done when they already have a pretty decent shelter (the car)? More food would have made them more comfortable, but they didn't die of starvation, so I still don't agree that it would have helped a lot. A signal mirror might be a good idea IF there was someone out there looking, but they already had a signal fire, which in this situation would probably be better than a mirror. Still nobody saw it. A map and compass would definitely be nice things to have, but I would assume he had a road map with him, and I know those cars come with a built in compass, but that still wasn't enough to save his life. In this case, you could almost say his being slightly prepared caused his death. Had he been wearing shorts and sandals, and been completely unprepared for the weather, he may have chosen to stay with the car instead of venturing out, and then been rescued with the rest of the family. Or he could have stayed with the family and all 4 of them have died. That's going to extremes though. We can critique and analyze every little action, but there are just too many grey areas to say what was the right and wrong thing to do without knowing the whole story.

It is a good idea to analyze the situation and identify any mistakes, but my point here is these aren't necessarily obvious mistakes. These are decisions that anyone could have made, they weren't because of ignorance or recklessness, for the most part they were calculated decisions made with the information that was available, but still ended up in tragedy. I honestly can't say I would be able to last any longer than he did, even with all my equipment. Of course, in my own little virtual world I imagine myself to be the great survivalist, building huge bonfires and shelters, hunting for food for my family, walking out to get help, etc, but the reality of it is that I may have done the exact same things he did, or gotten myself into worse trouble.

I've been following this thread and it seems the discussion breaks down into two general areas: kit and decisions. I won't respond to the kit issues about what one should , could, did have - because Mr. Kim didn't have much, since his wife and kids survived pretty well they apparently had what they needed for this ordeal (that's simplistic, of course) and virtually everyone on this forum probably has more kit in their pockets right now than they had! So, let's look at decisions.

In this situation, and thousands like it any of us may face, decisions are really risk assessments. Survival and high stress/danger environments (combat, for instance) require continuous evaluation of environment/conditions, resources, threats and plausible responses. These are all couched in risk tolerance - and that is dependent in large measure on possible consequences and to whom. As has been said if it's just me that's much different than my wife and two kids being impacted. My risk aversion quotient changes! If I might die that's one thing - different if the risk is a broken arm. And these decisions must be made constantly through time and as the variables change. To put it simply, I tell people I train this - when you're up against it - or about to be - think about every decision, evaluate risk, then go. It's not go - then evaluate risk - then decide! Too late! And let me add - all the kit in the world can't compensate for not thinking - because you're dead and can't use it!

We don't have now - and may never - all the details of this story, but some bad decisions were made long before the car stopped and way long before the ninth day. Do I turn down this road? (Snow, dark, no kit, no food, poor map) Do I stop now and back up? Now do I try to turn around? You get the idea. So, here's my risk assessment.

The car's stuck, I don't have any equipment, not much food, etc. etc. I do have the ability to make fire. Plenty of wood. I can get water. Not the best clothing situation. I can shelter in car. Lots of "stuff" from the car. I'm a long way from civilization. After 7 days little chance of enough strength to walk out in this situation. Conclusion: best chance is to shelter in place, conserve bodily energy, keep warm, keep hydrated, make my search signature as large as possible (like I said - burn down the forest!). I am convinced that at every decision point after being stuck the final choice has to be - remain in place and keep working to stay alive. As more time passes careful judgment dictates that this becomes more important - not less. But here's the key - you have to know all that ahead of time. It is knowledge and mental preparation that makes survivors. Sure, we all know the stories of somebody who walked out after two weeks and saved his crew. It's just that the hundred other stories of those who died trying just aren't that interesting!

So, knowledge, training, practice, kit - in that order. BTW, been there done that. 35 years ago I was lost for a three days in the remote Ontario forest - and I was real experienced outdoors. But I was mentally unprepared for the experience. I probably wasn't that far from dying, in hindsight. Going in the wrong direction (which I was) I could have gone 250 miles to hit a public road. I got my wits back and got back to camp two days later. I decided then and there that it would not happen that way again. I've been lost several times since then, but now I know what to do - because I've planned to be lost. I carry different stuff and I have different mental preparation. My risk assessment is much different. I like to go places where it's tough and I go prepared to deal. When I'm not prepared, I don't go to those places.

I was just reading this article about the helicopter pilot who found the wife and children. It actually wasn't the chartered helicopter that found Kati and the children.

John Ranchor is a 58 year old, private helicopter pilot who knows the area well. He had a hunch about where the Kim's might be, so on his own initiative, he flew out to the area. The SAR and chartered helicopters were off searching other areas at the time. After Mr. Ranchor spotted Kati Kim waving her umbrella, he then contacted the chartered helicopter to pick them up (the implication in the article is that his helicopter is too large to land safely but the chartered helicopter was smaller and could land nearby. RAS posted a photo of a SAR chopper winching someone down that was very large, too.).

Mr. Ranchor also says that he is familiar with the logging road where the Kim's took a wrong turn well. The logging road is actually wider and better maintained than the main road, so he isn't surprised that they turned down the logging road when they were trying to backtrack to the main highway. At night, while it's snowing, on an unfamiliar road--sounds like a mistake any of us could make.

I tip my hat to the efforts of a private citizen to help out other people in need. Although the Kim's had heard helicopters earlier, they were never spotted. There's no telling when the official SAR and chartered flights might have found the Kim's without Mr. Ranchor's initiative and firsthand knowledge of the area.

P.S. Of course, as with all press reports, maybe even this story isn't quite as simple as it appears to be. We'll see.

does red streamer really work? It is just an orange strip of plastic.

If he stayed at the car, would a PLB would draw rescuers to him ?

How might a comprehensive review of the situation be viewed by the family?

Either a learning opportunity for others, or adding insult to injury. It may be very difficult for the family to hear an expert say, "they did this, this and this wrong."

They have a lot to deal with.

While an analysis may be helpful for folks like us, but it may be emotionally harmful for the family.

I know that the ETS members suggesting this are not insensitive to the family's pain and don't mean to imply such.

From my own loss of family members (health reasons, not survival situation), I kept questioning, "what about this" or "what if they had done that?". In the end I concluded that it doesn't really matter the reasons...the result is still the same...the person is still gone.

Just another perspective.

BB James Kim.

Some (not all) of the media coverage of this event is being incredibly kind to the family, and I think that's great. For the people who rankle when the word "hero" is used, get over it; that is how his children need to remember him. And what he did was the best he could do, for all the reasons stated here (need to do something, lack of experience and gear, putting his children's future before his own safety, etc).

I'll admit that I get irritated (and Doug knows, since I've been known to vent about it) that when someone goes out without a plan, gets, oh let's say caught under a rock and gnaws off his hand, then goes on late night TV to be applauded as a hero, and does NOT use that opportunity to teach a valuable lesson, but instead basks in the glory of their "heroic" deeds and delights in being up close and personal with the two Ls. But here we have a guy who tried and failed, and a family who needs to find some peace in loss, which is darned hard to do.

Anyway, before I veer too far off topic; it is possible to use this story to teach a lesson and still be sensitive to the emotional needs of the family who survived. So I'd welcome an analysis from Doug and don't think it has to be hurtful. With time, I hope the family can see that articles that use their example as a springboard for saving other lives honors Mr. Kim's memory.

I feel the same way. My wife and I were talking about this unfortunate situation, and she made the comment that we don't need any more gear...and I replied that on the contrary, we need a LOT more gear.

I've been working on acquiring kit for a year and a half or so. I make modifications and upgrades as I learn, and have money to do so.

I'll probably always be tweaking things, but the point is, it doesn't matter what gear you have or even what knowledge you have...when it's your time...it's your time.

That doesn't mean that we can't try to delay when that time comes.

My whole point is, I think it was Maya Angelou said, "You did the best you could with what you knew, and when you knew better, you did better."

I may think that I'd have the gear and knowledge to pull my family through this particular situation, but if it truly happened to me, I might end up like Mr. Kim in spite of my efforts.

I would say that for the apparent lack of preparation (at least to ETS standards) this family did REMARKABLY well in surviving. The whole family could have died from hypothermia the first night...but they survived for NINE DAYS before the car was found.

The surviivng family may find little solace in that, but I think that this story is inspiring...though for James, the ending was not a happy one.

Well put.

Although the picture shows its open water use, it would be a straight, bright orange line against white snow and green trees. It's probably one of the best passive signaling devices that exist.

A few more details here.

-john

I concur.

If I were found in a similar situation, I would hope y’all would dissect every action/choice made.

It would please me to no end to think that my last actions on Earth would be useful to teach others.

Mr. Kim succeeded in keeping his wife and children alive. I could only hope I would do as well in a similar situation.

It does sound interesting, but also seems to be a bit overprice, at least in my opinion...

New GPS will able to get signal in that heavy wood terrain.

I can't afford to burn up fat. I don't have any on my body. I am all lean muscles like Bruce Lee.

I am trying to gain weight by eating large calorie meals.

I guess my earthquake preparations classify me as paranoid then.

I would have chained up and driven out (thank goodness I carry tire chains instead of a liferaft, right harkev? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
As far as snoeshoes go, trust me, it's a lot easier to travel in moderate to deep snow with them than without. I would not have attempted to walk out in deep snow without a pair, even if it were only something I cobbled together.

It might have given him the confidence to stay put, which without the other gear, he probably should have done.

They had a fire at the car. I've seen no evidence that James built one while hiking out. We'll have to wait on that one. At any rate, a mirror would have taken far less time for James to deploy than a fire would have taken to build.

Try removing the cars electronic compass and see if it still works. I bet it doesn't, and so would be worthless to James. A roadmap that did not show the inevitable criss cross of logging raods would probably be of little value as well.

I get the sense that some people may think that analyzing what happened to this family is somehow disrespectful to Mr. Kim. Nothing could be further from the truth. He did the best he could with limited gear. Discussing this incident has already convinced me to add snowshoes and a cell phone antenna extension to my vehicle, and perhaps swap the regular shovel I carry for a snow shovel. And what room I need, I'll make. It's that important.

http://www.healthline.com/blogs/outdoor_health/

Paul Auerbach wrote about the incident.

Even if the caretaker was gone & the phone & power were turned off there is a chance that some stale crackers or who knows what might have been in a cabinet there. Maybe they clean everything out perfectly when they close it down, but who knows.

And surely they had a fireplace & some firewood. It was the exposure that killed him in the end.

Agreed. Regarding James Kim, the man made the best decisions he knew how and went all out to save his family, which in the end is a husband/father's ultimate job. I salute him.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." -- Roosevelt

Dang! I wish I could give you 20 of my pounds!

I agree with you, but you have to keep in mind he was sitting there day after day looking at his two kids wondering if they would survive another 2 weeks assuming help didn't come. One heck of a scenario. The mental anguish would take it's toll.

Something gear-wise I have not heard mentioned is that the price of satellite phones has come down recently and there are available usage plans for the "emergency user". Following Katrina, alot of these phones were dumped onto Ebay and there are many still available for about the same start up cost as an PLB. Yes, there is an ongoing usage charge that may make it somewhat more expensive, but the sat phone gives you the added peace of mind of knowing that help is immediately on the way. My understanding, at least with the Globalstar phones, is that they utilize GPS technolgy so that the phone can be used to find you even if you do not know where you are.

I'm not advocating one over the other, I personally carry both into the backwoods of Utah. The sat phone may be a little easier to justify from a purchase point of view given its non-emergency usage.

Stay safe.

Craig.

I believe you can rent sat-phones too. I think I recall reading that, after someone got lost in CO a couple of years back. I could be wrong though.

Wow! Just read this on CNN. Sickening.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/missing.family.ap/index.html

That's a good point. All survival literature the general public may have seen is movies like Alive with Ethan Hawke (the rugby team where there are cases of cannibalism) and maybe The Edge with Bart the bear and no character dies of hypothermia. Hollywood doesn't teach the statistics, only spectacular exceptions. I wonder if this factor influences decisions of people.

Frankie

It is interesting to me that the news people can not decide if he walked eight miles, ten miles or 10.5 miles, and if he died one mile or one half mile from his vehicle. This article used both the one mile and one half mile figures in the came article.
I can give them the half mile, but two miles difference is a lot.

Accuracy in reporting at its finest...

CDMA is cellular technology. This (probably) wouldn't have helped any more than texting their GPS location on their cell. It probably would be a good option in urban areas (faster response in a car crash), but in a rural setting, the PLB is probably still the way to go (and no monthly charges).

-john

This a common misconception. A GPS *receiver* does NOT transmit your position to any satellite.

Onstar uses the GPS receiver to determine your position and then transmits this information through the cellular phone network, IF it is available.

Yes, you can. Here is the guy I use. Very friendly and personable. The owner does an outdoor radio show every Saturday morning on KSL radio out of Salt Lake City. You can get it via Itunes as well. Very informative.

Craig.

All the talk about PLB's and Sat phones...who ever takes these on road trips? Less than 1% of car drivers would have these. Are they really on anybodies vehicle kit, or even recommended by preparedness organizations, outside of this list? Just raising a point of question...

Unlikely, ON-Star obtains positioning information from a GPS receiver (no transmitter) and then transmits that information over cellular wireless. If they were out of cell range, On-Star would not have helped.

Craig.

If people are interested, you can pan and zoom around this area using Google maps.

Go to http://maps.google.com/, then paste into the search box "42 38 28.09n 123 45 40.36w", then click on "Hybrid". You'll get an arrow on the map coorisponding to the center of the path graphics map, above.

To get a good apples to apples comparision, Click on the path graphics map once to zoom in, and click zoom in (+), twice on Google maps.

FWIW, zooming out to the 1mi scale gives a pretty good idea how confusing these Forest Service (old logging roads) really are.

-john

I have a Globalstar GSP-1600 with 2 batteries and a car charger in a Pelican box, an ACR Aquafix 406, and a Garmin Etrex Vista Cx loaded with Topo USA in a backpack when I'm headed out into the backcountry (that's in addition to PSK, food, etc.). But I get WAY OFF the grid and am known for overkill <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Craig.

I wonder if a common FRS/GMRS radio would have been of any use in their situation?

If you live in California and are preparing for earthquakes, then no, it's not paranoid. That would not be considered an unlikely scenario. However, if you live Kansas and are preparing for a tsunami, then yes, you might possibly be paranoid. You just have to analyze the risks associated with each one and determine what you want to prepare for.



Having more food might also have given him the confidence to try and look for help earlier, instead of staying with the car. I don't think we can say that would have definitely saved his life.



Again, we have to look at this from his point of view, with the information he knew at the time. He had stayed with the car for 7 days, burned all 4 tires without any signs of rescue. So he could only assume that there was probably nobody looking for him. We know he did have lighters with him when he tried to walk out, so he had the ability to make a fire. But if he was trying desparately to find help, maybe he didnt want to stop and take the time to make a fire if he thought it wouldn't help.



The compass would only work in the car, but it would have given him a general sense of direction. A better map would have shown more of the logging roads but again, we're still looking at this with hindsight. He was not planning on driving through this area, and even if he was, how many people carry detailed topo maps of an area they are not planning on staying in? I have quite a whole bag of maps when I travel, but very, very few of them have much more detail than a major highways, and of those, only about 1 of those would show logging roads. And those are only because I specifically searched for ones that did. Let not forget he's 400+ miles from home, most people would not carry roadmaps containing that much detail of every place they pass through.



It's good if this incident has caused you to rethink your preparations, but again, this could also have a negative effect. The popular opinion has been to stay with the car at all times, so why would there even be a need for showshoes? Not that I'm discouraging you from carrying them since i don't know your situation, but that does seem to contradict what has been repeated over and over in this forum, which is to NEVER leave the car (advice that I don't agree with btw)

We don't know for sure whether having any extra equipment with the family would have changed the outcome of this incident, for all we know it could have led to an even bigger tragedy. We can analyze and assume all we want, but without ever knowing the full details, and the condition he or his family was in, it's just all hypothesis. It could have been that James learned from the story of the Hill-Strivers family who were stranded for 17 days in the same area earlier this year, in under similar circumstances. Searchers had stopped looking for them, so two of the men walked out to get help, and succeded. Given that knowledge, that there were no searchers, they could possibly be stranded for a couple more weeks, it's no surprise that he tried to walk out. I didn't see any criticism of that family for leaving the vehicle, even when they had a fully stocked RV to live in.

It's good to analyze this situation and learn from it, but we have to be careful not to make any assumptions that might not apply in a differenet scenario. There are NO set rules in any survival situation.



I prefer to look at this a different way. Here was a guy, who's only real mistake was getting lost on a family vacation. His goal was to keep his family alive under very difficult circumstances. In the end, he thought that the only way to keep his family alive was to go out and find help, even if that meant risking his own life. So even though he might not have lived, he did manage to his family alive until rescuers could find them. So while not 100% successful, I wouldn't exactly say he failed.

I really hate the article of last night/this morning suggesting a time of death (nice that the reporters can guestimate it when the Medical Examiner would not) or how "close" Mr. Kim was to food/shelter. One mile is not a short distance in that situation. But it sounds short in today's article. The story just smacks of "let's sell some papers, folks!" It does a disservice to the SAR folks and only adds to the pain being suffered by the family.

Unlikely, they have a very limited range and unless searchers knew that he had one, they would have no reason to be monitoring those frequencies. But certainly better than nothing.

You would be much better off getting your amateur radio license and carry a 5 watt dual-bander HT (walkie talkie) along with ARRL's shirt pocket repeater directory. That would give you a chance of hitting one of numerous amature radio repeaters out in the back country and a ham is more likely to be monitoring one of those frequencies.

Craig.

If someone with an FRS radio was close enough to hear them then they could have just picked them up. One of my counsins bough a pack of them one year for deer season and you could have written you message on the radio and tossed it at the other person sometimes when they wouldn't pick up each others signals.
GMRS is a little too application specific so people are not just driving down the road listening for them.
Your much better off broadcasting a signal so HAM or even CB since there will be more chance of someone hearing it

This appears to be attributed to me but is not my quote. No big deal, just wanted to clarify that.

I have a Garmin Rino 110 FRS/GMRS w/ GPS I carry on hunting trips. One of the features I have yet to use allows another Rino user to read your GPS coordinates on their unit while you are transmitting. If I were lost while hunting, I would hope the authorities would be monitoring all those channels. I wonder if they have specialized equipment that allows them to receive my signal at a greater range than another Rino user would?

Very good point - if you're going to walk out you have to make that risk assesstment while you're still strong enough have a good chance. Waiting a week with little or no food was a huge mistake, but I gotta think his decision was based on having two little ones & the very real chance they might starve. He went to plan B way to late. Like everyone here I think it was a gutzy move & respect him for it. But from pure non-emotional survival assestment standpoint it was a mistake.

It's actually amazing how much ground he covered based on his gear, the terrain, the weather and that he didn't appear to have a lot of body fat to run off of in the 1st place.

I certainly see your point and don't dispute it. And I don't intend to malign Mr. Kim. In fact, I have a hard time assuring myself that I wouldn't do the same thing. However, the point of my posts has been that the more training one has the more likely you are to make good decisions when the chips are down. And that training, thought process, has to include contemplation of the worst case scenario - you need a framework for making that tough decision. I would also add that my wife and I have raised three children (with lots of tough outdoors time - I remember the week our second was a baby nursing and the first was about two years and we were in a tent near Lake Missisaugua; +10 deg. F air temp. 20 mph sustained wind and the little one kept crawling out of Mom's sleeping bag. He's now a wildfire crew boss!) and have always, and continue, to discuss with them outdoor living, risks, skills and making tough decisions. Our spouses - our whole families - need to be in on this - know the risks and responses. It may not be perfect but it will make things a lot easier if, and when, the time comes.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Kim family.

The news media makes it sound as if they just took a wrong turn off the freeway. The reality is that they were many, many miles out of the way. I've been to the same area where they were stranded and it was an easy drive in the summer. In the winter that's not the case; in fact the one-lane paved USFS road they took to get to the area isn't even plowed or maintained in the winter. One blurb I heard was that Mr. Kim had to stick his head out of the window while driving to see ahead through the falling snow. There are road signs and notations on maps warning of travel through the area.

I'm glad the wife and children were found. They stayed alive after nine days of being stuck. Unfortunately Mr. Kim's fate wasn't the same.

I hope that others see the story and take something from it. There is not safety or assistance around every corner, and bad things can happen to good people.

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse anyone with the quote. I was quoting parts of your reply, and one of someone else's in the same post. I just didn't feel like making two separate posts.

I have wondered this myself, particularly when it comes to aerial searches since line-of-sight can greatly extend the normal range of these radios. SAR authorities will generally try to ascertain what kinds of clothing, food, and equipment lost people have, right?

Assuming that SAR is notified that I have a FRS radio on Channel 1 (for argument's sake), I wonder if the aerial searchers can take advantage of that? Can their radios access that band? Alternatively, I suppose that they could take a FRS radio up with them, crank up the volume, and hold it next to their ear to hear over the noise of the engine/rotors, but is that actually practical for them? I have no idea. I would like to think that a small, inexpensive, license-free consumer two-way radio can help, but practically speaking, maybe it's wouldn't. Dunno.

I totally disagree with you on this issue. The intent of an article by Doug would be to SAVE LIVES, not to add "insult to injury."

My assumption is that the family wouldn't read the article since it would be published in the "Equipped to Survive" web site. If the press gets wind of the article it would be their responsibiltiy. You are assuming that an article by Doug would be wholly critical - Kim probably did a lot of things correctly and we should learn what they were.

Also, and I feel strongly about this: Kim's death would be wasteful tragedy only if we fail to learn from his ordeal. The idea of withholding potentially life saving information to spare the family any pain is just silly when you look at the bigger picture. Emotional pain vs saving lives: no contest. Most deaths are unavoidable, but here is a circumstance when tragedy might have been avoided with additional knowledge, and we have an opportunity to save lives and prevent others from experiencing the grief that befell the Kims'. Imagine a year from now, Mrs. Kim reading a news article about someone surviving a similar situation because he learned from her husband's tragedy. I think she would be proud that her husband's death was not in vain, and some good came from it.

I'm not married and no kids but. This makes me think I would seriously consider a few things. I could say with confidence that any woman I would be involved with would NOT consider being prepared to the extent I would hope. That said if I did have a wife and children nothing would make a better non-holiday gift than a PLB. I know I would sleep much better at night given the situation.

I have on a few occasions come across vehicles crashed over an embankment that maybe could have used a PLB.

Much food for thought for me.

Cameron Ownbey

The range of FRS is so limited that someone in the air could see you before they pick up the FRS signal.
I've found that cell phones are rather terrain dependent too, you can go over hills and get a signal and down in valleys and loose it. So something to try would be to hike to high ground and try calling or texting.

It will all depend on my available time, which is squeezed very tight these days, especially with Sue's situation. That's just the current reality. I have published a very brief Lessons Learned on my Equipped.org Blog that covers some major issues, in hopes that with the media coverage and our high Google positioning we'll get the message across to some who might otherwise never receive it. Of necessity, its focus is on what might have prevented the tragedy in the first place, lessons that others can take away and do something with now. A more comprehensive article could delve into a lot more, including the obviously effective survival strategies, some good, some sub-optimal but they worked, made while the family was stranded and what went right as well as what went wrong.

The bottom line is ETS is severly handicapped by lack of funds and I am only one person. Even with sleep being but an option, <~> there's only so much I can accomplish...

Doug,

Is there any way that the picture of the gear in your blog can be made so if I click on it I get a bigger picture? OR is a bigger picture and a complete list of what is in the picture available somewhere on ets.org?

BTW, the Kim incident and your articles at ets.org have convinced my wife and I to invest in a PLB for a family trip to Glacier National Park. I've spent waaay more than the cost of the PLB on all sorts of toys (cameras, boats, horses, etc...) Thanks for your help in making that decision.

Thanks,

Ken K.

I keep going back to the original mistakes they made. Missing their turn, picking a bad alternate route from a road map, not knowing the area, not understanding that they didn't have enough gas to endlessly wander around unmarked forestry roads.

A PLB or sat phone could have gotten them out of trouble sooner, but those are a hard sell to even a hardcore geek / preparedness nut family.

They could have avoided all the trouble in the first place with a GPS navigation system. There are plenty of sub-$500 systems now where you can carry detailed road maps of multiple states and never have to wonder if you're on the right road. I've held off purchasing one but I think it's getting to be time. I just wish they had one with sat photo overlays. Or Google Earth on DVD.

It may or may not have gotten them rescued.... but being able to communicate with each other beyond line of sight, even if range is limited by terrain, is always a good thing IMO.

Even if rescuers do not routinely monitor all the possible channels of FRS, GMRS, HAM... if one or the other got rescued, even if the other party is out of range, they can tell SAR personnel that the other DOES have a radio, and what channel they're on. That immediately allows them to cover much larger swaths of land during their search pattern, as they may wander within radio range long before the could see you (if they could see you at all)

Even the cheapo radios may prove useful, and they're dirt cheap, so why not? (GMRS licencing is of course important to stay legal, although in an emergency I don't think I'd feel too bad about it).

I must respecftully disagree. You are creating an unlikely and overly-complex hypothectical to justify a flawed premise. DO NOT TRUST YOUR LIFE TO AN FRS RADIO. SAR is not going to conduct an investigation into what you may or may not have with you. The likelihood is they will not even have with them any equipment capable of monitoring FRS frequencies. All radio equipment sold in the US must be type-approved by the FCC. Aircraft raidio will not tune to FRS frequencies and an unmodified amateur radio may monitor, but not transmit on those frequencies. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HEAR YOU PERIOD.

On the other hand, hams are dedicated people. I guarantee you that hams were monitoring frequencies in the area as soon as they heard someone was lost. And if SAR was able to do any investigation, they would find my name in the FCC license database pretty quickly. Law enforcement and ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Service) are tight. The right people with triangulation equipment could be brought in quickly.

Don't go cheap, go smart. Used amature HTs can be picked up off Ebay for about the same price as some of the so called "long range" FRS/GMRS units.

Trust me on this one, FRS is only slightly better than 500mw child's toy you buy at Wal-Mart. Get your license and get the right equipment. Its not difficult and you will meet a helluva lot of nice people along the way.

Craig.

The news is now saying that the road had been closed with a locked gate, but that vandals had cut the lock and opened the gate. Hope they lose a lot of sleep over this. But jerks being jerks, I doubt that they will...

Just wanted to add my thoughts to this situation:

I drive close to 9 hours just about every weekend. My drive starts off in a rural area, goes on highway, then brings me to a suburban/city area, then back again. Even when traveling on the main roads I have used the stuff in my kit so many times it's amazing. People are generally very unprepared. From what I've heard the common thought is, "I carry a cell phone and if that doesn't work I'll just flag down another car." I can tell you that this doesn't always work. One guy I dragged out of the ditch in the side of the road with my tow strap was stuck there for three hours. His car wouldn't run and he had little more then the clothes on his back. Other people have the tools, yet don't know how to use them. The most common one being, "how do you change a tire?"

I guess the point I'm trying to make is: Carry the most amount of equipment and gear you can (factoring in space and financial restrictions) and learn how to use it. It only has to save your or someone elses life once to pay for itself.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I wish more people would learn. The thing that kills me is; I've made threads in other internet forums talking about carrying some extra gear and such in winter and more then half of the people just shot me down. The worst of the bunch being the younger teenagers who just started driving. They again ask, "I carry a cell phone, what do I need all that other crap for, why waste money on it?" <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Back up there bud, I never said you should trust your life to an FRS radio, nor did I imply you should use that over, say, an Amateur radio. All I said was that they might prove useful with regards to communicating with each other outside of shouting range, certainly better than nothing at all, and that is not a flawed premise. Of course getting an amateur licence is the way to go.

Just a few thoughts:

The rule of staying with the vehicle exists because a vehicle is easier to spot from the air than a person. But if no one is looking for you, the rule may become pointless. The rule has never said: Stay with the vehicle until you die. There will probably come a time when you have to make a decision.

I can't help but think that there are a lot of armchair adventurers at this site. That area is really rough country. Traveling 8 or 10 miles in up-and-down terrain like that, in winter, is no easy feat. The fact that he died a mile or half-mile from food, heat and shelter doesn't mean anything. If you don't know it's there, it might as well not be.

Food: One energy bar isn't going to last anyone a week or two, esp Americans. People who are used to eating are going to worry about not eating, and it would probably cloud their judgment and affect their decisions. No matter how macho you are, lack of food will probably begin to affect you after two days or so, esp in the cold. And if you have kids with you....

They were driving an AWD. I live in rural WA, where an awful lot of the people drive AWD. They think it will prevent them from sliding on ice and will get them out of any predicament that could possibly happen to them in a vehicle. The Kims were from the city... need I say more?

From the local coverage of this ordeal, it seems that the county involved has no helicopter. If it hadn't been for the family of the Kims, the whole family might be dead by now. They were the ones who tracked down the tower pings through the phone company, and narrowed the search area. They were the ones who hired a helicopter to search the area. If they hadn't put forth this effort (and money), the news coverage and the searching may not have been quite so extensive.

People think that smoke always travels straight up. In times of low pressure, it just sits on the ground and hides under the trees. Don't expect anyone to notice.

I did snort at the authorities saying they were going to try to find the vandals who cut the chain on the gate closing the road. They haven't a clue and never will.

Sue, who hoped this situation would turn out better than it did

A lot of people also think that AWD and 4WD are the same thing. They are not. AWD is basically a car that has power to all of the drive wheels. Real 4WD is a cat of a different color. 4WD has totally different gearing, and can (but there is no guarantee will) get you out of situations that will leave an AWD vehicle hopelessly stuck...

While I understand you are trying to say that all AWD/4WD systems are created equal, I think we should leave it at that. Certainly, I do agree that the term AWD has certain implications and 4WD has certain implications, however, I think marketing and public opinion has blurred the definitions so much you cannot make any significant conclusions based on the terms.

It should be noted, that 2WD and FWD could mean ONE or two drive wheels and the the ability to drive the second wheel can vary greatly based on the impliemention.

It should be noted that AWD and 4WD could mean as little as TWO drive wheels (a front and a rear), or three, or four. The ability to drive the different wheels varys greatly based on implemenation.

Even if a AWD or 4WD can drive all four wheels, it may do it differently which may be better suited for different situations.

As suggested, some AWD/4WD systems have the ability to switch into a lower gearing.

And of course, some systems are combinations of the various approaches suggested here.

One thing people overlook is tires. The best AWD/4WD system still touches the road with four small patches of rubber. Tires are a set of compromises, and work better in different conditions. Typically most cars and SUVs have tires ill suited for ice and snow. Tires warrent a lot of consideration IMO.

As Susan points out, even with the best AWD/4WD system (and the best tires) you can't cheat the laws of physics. If something is icy, you can slide right off, despite the best traction. If the snow is too deep, at some point you cannot apply enough force to the ground to move forward no matter what.

There appears to be an interesting theme in this thread where people are thought irrational for preparing "more than considered normal".

People think I'm nuts for having tire chains for both the front and rear of our Jeep, despite having a very good AWD system than can drive all wheels effectively and having good tires.

They'd probably think it even odder that I still assume that I can get stuck.

-john

No problem. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Around my area, tens of millions of people travel to Vegas every year, and any one of them has the possibility of getting stuck in the desert for a week. Should they all carry a weeks worth of water for a carload of people, some 40-80 gallons?)
When I drove for Coach USA I carried enough water for all my pax (47-55) if we ever broke down traveling from SLC-LVG, we had enough water for 2-3 days the host usually had snacks ie: candybars peanuts etc but the longest we were broke down for was 6 hours (so really lucky). I know about what ducktapeguy speaks of I have driven the lonely backroads of the Western US for 15 yrs US 6 comes to mind (luckly at night) James was right in some respects and wrong in others but lets all learn from this and carry on Thanks Mike

"...you are trying to say that all AWD/4WD systems are created equal..."

Actuall, I was trying to say that they are not created equal. I shouldn't try to write late at night, I tend to make more mistakes, leave out more information, and not get my point across.

Good point on the tires. Most people have regular street tires on their AWD and 4WD vehicles, they don't want the sometimes rougher ride and road noise of a more aggressive tread. On our 4WD Chevy Tracker we have AT tires (mudders are a little much for our every day ride), and like you we carry two sets of chains (real chains, not cables) year round. Chains can help you get out of mud as well as snow/ice. Plus a shovel. We would carry a Hi Lift jack too if we had the room.

I have actually talked to people who own 4WD SUV's and do not know how to put the vehicle into 4WD!!!

Oops! I 'not created equal' is what I meant to say. I guess we both suffer from post-while-tired syndrome!



Yah, we have a set of vbar chains which are heavy duty and have an extra grippy bar welded on. Actually, we also have a pair of sets of diamond sytle too which are a bit more road friendly.



You might consider a tirfor/griphoist style hand winch.

-john

Larger: www.equipped.org/graphics/carkit_lg.jpg

No list

Glad you decided to invest in a PLB. Happy to help in that.

Doug,

I hope everyone in this thread reads your blog post. I couldn't agree more and I seriously hope those on this thread take it to heart. What continues to worry me about this thread is the fact that some here still don't get some of the basic premises in your blog post. It worries me because they may die someday. My dad, one of the best woodsmen I ever knew (and I've known a few), often said to me, when as a headstrong young man I wasn't listening, "It's one thing not to know, it's another thing not to listen to those who do." When I was about 21 I learned what he meant - and I started listening!

Keep up the good work!

MSR Multi Fuel Backpacker Stove

I used to backpack a lot and after much research bought a Mountain Safety Research backpacking stove at a mountaineering store. I have had it for more than twenty years now.

When I started flying cross country trips in small planes I got in the habit of taking it as part of my survival kit as well as to use for airplane camping at small airports or remote airstrips. I also carry it in the car with my gear when I am traveling. Even if I don't plan to camp I generally carry a pretty complete kit.

Doug's advice has been invaluable over the years in encouraging me to be thoughtful about taking along appropriate gear. So now I guess I'll have to buy a PLB! I have been considering it since the ELT in the aircraft is so minimal, and doesn't help me when I am hiking or in the car.

I strongly recommend the MSR stove. It is very compact but puts out a lot of heat. It can boil a quart of water in a fraction of the time needed by most other backpack stoves. It has a built in flint striker used to light it. The kit includes an alternate orifice so it can burn all liquid fuels, including leaded gasoline. The kit also includes an orifice cleaning wire, a wrench, a small plastic bottle to use for priming fuel to help start the stove in extreme cold, and a small pot that houses the stove when not in use.

When camping I also usually take along a larger camp pot with lid, packed with a bunch of my gear.

The stove does not have a fuel tank. Instead it has a pump unit that replaces the screw cap of a standard backpacker's one pint fuel bottle. A bottle is included and the stove instructions are printed on the bottle. This makes the stove very stable because instead of being tall the burner sits on the ground or table and a tube goes over to the pump and tank, which is oriented horizontally.

I thought about how the family used the car engine to stay warm. That burns a lot of fuel and they eventually ran out of gas.

The backpack stove, with proper ventilation, would have kept the car warm far longer on a tank of fuel. It is not recommended to use a stove in a tent or enclosed space, but in an emergency one could do so with caution.

Thus another item to bring on trips would be a small siphon tube capable of reaching into the fuel tank. It would have to be small because many tanks have baffles in the filler tube to foil the larger siphon tubes.

The stove can also be used to melt snow for drinking water if no water is nearby. The instructions note that one bottle of fuel will melt enough snow to make 24 quarts of water, and will also bring to a boil 24 quarts of cold water.

Rol

Would you please post a larger photot of the car survival kit you placed on your blog? It looks very interesting.

Thanks

Fumbles, missteps hindered search

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/10/FAMILY.TMP

What are the odds?

On the evening news (NBC?) last night they said the Kim's car was stranded on the same logging road that the salesman that died 11 years ago was on. I like many American's saw that (Primetime or Dateline) story 5 or 6 years ago that detailed that guys story about how he sat there for 40+ days waiting for help & starved to death. I like many after watching it said I'm going to walk out if ever caught it that situation. I have since reconsidered & realize my odds are so much better to stay put. My memory is fuzzy on his story, but if I remember right one thing that is overlooked is that guy didn't have anyone that was expecting him back anytime soon. Even if you have altered your travel route without letting anyone know (big mistake) then most people have coworkers & family that would alert the authorities to start searching.

What is the white rope in the center of the photo just under the medical kit? Is that a pulley system?

Having been a SAR person for some years, I can clearly see that today is no dfferent than 20 years ago. Searchers all mean well and try their best, there is always confusion, sketchy information and misinterpretations. That is why it is so important to leave clear trip plans with someone that can initiate a search. There will still be confusion and misguided efforts due to poor translation but that will be minimized by planning times, dates and road information. If you leave your planned route for any reason, call someone and tell them the change. The Kims probably only saw the deviation of their route as a minor inconvenience. They clearly did not understand the difference in that road over the planned road. Easy mistake to make, the consequenses speak for themselves.
Reading the link Doug provided, we can all clearly see the variations in reality and what was being reported earlier. Just as searchers are hindered by misinformation, the media seldom has correct information either. I can tell you that rescue efforts that I participated in, were not once reported correctly even if there was a helicopter newsman along. Not once did we recieve all the facts from service coordinators, they simply never have all the information or never disseminate it correctly.
We all need to keep these things in mind when we head out on a journey, there is seldom a quick rescue coming along unless you in clear site of a major road or residence. Keep yourself out of trouble but plan for the possibilities!
I can clearly rethink my attitude about a PLB now. Like Martin, I always saw them as a aviator or mariner "must have". Now I can see the value in an everyday road traveller owning such a device. An amatuer radio is also a great investment in personal safety, a HAM license is much easier to obtain now, and the radios are reasonably priced. You do need to know how to use one, knowledge of where reapeaters are located and the frequencies. I keep mine handy on the road.
Bottom line, preventable tragedy very sad outcome. Let's learn from this and get better at preparation and response.

"...in Portland. The plan the next day was to go to Gold Beach..."

Given that information, and assuming that their plan was to continue south on I-5 from Portland, I feel that once they passed State Hwy 42 to the west at Green, Oregon, and then failed to take State Hwy 199 SW from Grants Pass, they were pretty much doomed. From Microsoft Streets and Trips, and my admittedly limited knowledge of that area (I have been from Grants Pass to Gold Beach, via Agness, once), there is nothing but USFS and BML roads between I-5 and Hwy 101 in that area, and those type roads are rarely, if ever, paved or kept open in the winter. Add to that the fact that they had called the motel that was their intended destination at 5:45 p.m. from Salem, "more than 200 miles to the north," means that they started out on those snowcovered dirt roads in the dark. Not good.

I find it interesting that while Streets and Trips shows all of the roads between I-5 and 101 in that area as USFS and BLM roads, my Rand McNally '07 Travel Guide shows several of those east-west roads, including what looks to be Bear Camp Road, as being an "other road," as opposed to their lowest category, "unpaved road." I do not know how they classify roads, and what an "other" road would be, but the implication is that it would be something better than an "unpaved" road. Even if you have a map and use it, you can receive bumb info.

I also find it intersting, and disturbing, that the USFS states that the lock had been cut off by vandals in Nov. If they knew that, why did they not replace the lock? A $10 lock (or probably a little more for a high quality, keyed alike, lock) could have prevented this entire incident, and saved a life...

It looks to me like a rolled tow strap, with the metal hook ends in the middle of the roll. A tow strap alone will not help you, but if another vehicle comes along, or you happen upon a stuck vehicle, one makes it much easier to pull a vehicle out...

I suppose you're right. At first it looked like a coil of white nylon rope with a hook or clasp of some kind in the middle.

FUBAR!!!

And THAT'S what you have to plan for.

BTW, the salesman's rig had slid off the road in the deepest patch of snow around, in the trees. He was mobile, he was in good shape, he had equipment and supplies. It was said (in hindsight, of course) that had he attempted to walk the half-mile back down the road after the first week or so, the snow had probably been melted enough for him to walk out. He apparently had thought that the whole area was as bad as the particular place where he was.

If you've changed your direction, haven't notified anyone, and no one knows you're lost, it seems to me that you should check out the area, esp the road. A half-hour walk (car door to car door) isn't going to put you in hypothermia if you stick to the road. Go out, check out the road/terrain, go back to the car and warm up. Check out the other direction, then warm up. Make a decision. Of course, I'm not talking about doing it during a snowstorm, or after dark.

But the Kim case (and the salesman's case) show that waiting around until you starve to death may not be the best way to handle the situation.

Depending on people who won't accept information, people who assume something has been done, people working on erronous information.... why leave these people in charge of your life?

Sue

I;ve sat on this comment for a couple of days.

I really do feel for the family.
Now I would like to ask a question.
If he had a cell phone and it was turned on it was transmitting.
Could the signal have been received by a govt approved portable scanner?
If the signal could be received by a scanner could the scanner be installed in a helicopter searching the area? As I asked above, if a unaccounted for signal was received would that have been enough information to allow searchers to home in?
At one time civilian scanners had the ability to scan cell freq's but that feature is now banned. I expect these scanners are still available to L.E. agency's.
And what wrong with the idea of flying with a portable cell system (if one exists) something that CAN originate and receive a cell call? In that type of terrain a signal will only reach a couple miles. Find the target signal, phone and then let them direct the search.
All that can be done now is send condolences to the family and hopefully learn from this mistake.

On PLB's
I just don't see everyone running out to buy them no matter how effective they may be. IMO the key is using some that likely 75% of the population already has, a cell phone.
The only obstacle would be that someone must have some idea of your travel plans.
Now if I am planning to be in a remote area out of regular contact for more than a week using a PLB is a different story.

One of the news stories I read said a mobile cell tower was brought in. Those are a little more complicated than a repeater, I don't think the required equipment could by carried on a small airplane or helicopter.
As far as a scanner, you only get a very short burst of data from the cell phone, the ping at regular intervals so the scanner has to hit the right frequency at the right time to catch one. Then you would need multiple to triangulate a position. So while its technically possible, its not easy to coordinate.
Then you would have to hope they haven't ran the cell phone dead trying to make a call. Something I added to out vehicles is an 12v socket connected to clips which can clip on the vehicle battery should the rest of the electrical system die, that way I could still charge a cell phone if needed. This was after buying a new vehicle and finding out the quality of Japanese electrical systems when the whole thing burned up driving on a trip so we couldn't even power up the old car phone (back when they were installed in a vehicle and didn't have their own power source).

You are correct. For urban use, the tow strap is all I need.

For more remote use, a quality US-made 2-ton come-along can be invaluable.

You might take a look at the griphoist I linked to (or others like it). It allows safe reversal of direction.

-john

A good quality hi-lift jack doubles as a winch as well, with a tow strap. It takes a bit, but, if you have an anchor in the right place, it will get you unstuck.

Agreed, but it's a bit tricky considering you have to anchor the vehicle in order to reposition the jack. And you need something to anchor it.

-john

The real problem with a PLB is that the average person knows nothing of their existance, let alone when they should own/use one.
I cannot justify the cost unless I plan a really remote trip without communications available. When you consider that the PLB is basically a simple single frequency transmitter that can hit a satellite, it seems very overpriced. There are a few other negative aspects, they are not very waterproof considering their intended use, they are heavy of you plan to backpack it, in realtive terms and they use proprietary batteries that must be factory serviced every 5 years.
Yes, they could save your life if ever used in an emergency but how many of us have $700 to invest in one? I honestly doubt I will buy one in their current design. It would have to half in price, come with better weather resistance and have self service batteries, like CR123s. The concept is excellent, just not very affordable for the masses.
Compared to a GPS map unit, or a HAM radio, a PLB is like a tricycle compared to the space shuttle, yet the PLB is much more expensive. I do not understand that aspect of the PLB.

Any new technology is the same way. DVD recorders were $500+++ when they came out. As demand for them increased the price dropped.

"...As demand for them increased the price dropped..."

If only that worked for fuel prices...

Its the supply that increased causeing the drop in price, when they first came out there were relatively few so the price was high to keep the demand below or even to the supply.. as the supply increased, the price was lowered, people could better afford to buy them... etc, until the supply and demand balanced out to a saturated market, then the tech got better further reduceing the price... etc ad infinitum..

Interestingly, 2 days after all the tires on the car are burned and one day after Kim left the car, nighttime lows go above freezing.

I just found this forum and wanted to make a few comments. I live in the Cascades in SW Washington state. I once hiked out from being lost in the woods on forest service roads, so there are a few things that came to mind.

Forest service roads are a nightmare. I walked about 20 miles to get out (during the fall fortunately.) It dawned on me to leave rocks at any branches of the road, so I could tell if I'd tried that branch or not. We had maps from the forest service (we were picking fir cones for sale) and THEIR maps were inaccurate. In that area, the vine maples were still bent down from the snowfall the previous year and acted almost like a fish trap. You could only walk out in one direction. I found another road pretty quickly and that's when I had to walk out of the maze of roads. I think he did a damn good job, all things considered. That's rugged country. It's tough to hike in even in the best of shape. The woods were likely wet and it would be hard to start a fire, unless you managed to keep something dry enough for firestarter.

But I do wonder about a few things. Don't folks carry shovels in the winter? Hats and warm clothes? Have we given up on using compasses to at least help us keep from walking in circles? That area is unlikely to be in range of any cell tower. (At home, I have to drive 5 miles to get within range of a tower.) I realize that some of these electronic devices can be helpful but they somehow strike me as being just gadgets. It seems like you might rely on them too heavily.

Lots of good stuff in this forum and I hope to learn more.

Had they had stopped for lunch and were eaten by Bears, would everyone fault then for not carrying a gun? Judging from the other posts, probably so.

We recently had a rare snow storm (“snow storm” in Seattle terms) here in Seattle. Hundreds of cars with fender-benders, run into ditches, abandoned when they couldn’t get up ice covered hills, out of gas, no chains, etc. etc. In a time when way too many people call 911 just to report power failures or ask “was that an Earthquake?” do you want your average Mom with kids driving to the Mall to have a PLB in the car? How many people in Seattle would have fire there’s off thinking it would just flash on the Map at AAA and a tow truck would show up in 20 minutes. If the Kim’s were planning on getting into that situation they did, they wouldn’t have had carried a PLB or a Sat Phone or a dog-sled, they would have simply not gotten into that situation. Like most accidents, this too was chain of events which lead to the ultimate situation. Bad Weather, not familiar with the area, no warnings on maps, nighttime, kids cranky, late arrival, missing lock / open gate, etc., etc. The one thing which was the true mistake that we all can learn from, is that if you’re not traveling on Interstate Highways then ask someone about the roads conditions. (Interstates are still no excuse to not have chains, blankets, etc. in the car during Winter driving.) In the case of buying the Mom and kids a PLB as a great non-holiday gift, yeah; if they go back-county hiking or snowshoeing. But to have one in the car just in case? In case of what? I’d say there is a million times greater chance of a PLB being stolen or lost then it be needed for a life saving situation in a throw-it in-the-car-just-in-case situation. Remember the Kim’s were not crossing the Siskiyous in a Cessna 182.

As far as blaming Kim, an expert in MP3 players for not having a PLB, I’d say his odds of getting robbed in the parking lot at the Denny’s they were last seen at were far far far greater than getting lost in the middle of nowhere, and yet I didn’t see Doug add a .45 to the list of what he could have been carrying on his person.

I really respect Doug’s advice and perspective and have been reading his site for the past maybe 8 years since I’ve been flying. And unlike Doug, not everyone can just throw a $2500 aviation survival kit into the trunk just-in-case. Even if they did carry a survival kit, and arctic sleeping bags, and a PLB and a Sat Phone and a hand cranked charger for their cell phones and a .45 with plenty of ammo, they could have driven off the shoulder and plunged into the canyon to their deaths.

What I was hoping for from Doug wasn’t that he should have had a PLB. That’s a no brainer, as anybody could have pushed the button at that point. But instead, once in that situation, what could/should he have done? And thus could I have learned something more than the obvious. What could he have done with the materials making up his car that he could have used better. What key cheap no-excuse-to-not-have-in-any vehicle item or tool if he had with him could have made a difference. Saying your life is worth more than a $500 PLB on that trip, come on, I expected more than that.

"Yes, they could save your life if ever used in an emergency but how many of us have $700 to invest in one? I honestly doubt I will buy one in their current design. It would have to half in price, come with better weather resistance and have self service batteries, like CR123s. The concept is excellent, just not very affordable for the masses."

I hear this a lot - yet I see people with nine AR-15s in their collection, or who can afford $600 for a playstation 3 and another $160 for a couple of games...

I'd love for them to be cheaper, don't get me wrong, but for many it's not the cost, it's the priorities. They don't think they'll need one (and most won't).

The idea that you don't seem to be considering is that disasters are not caused by a single circumstance. They are caused by a chain reaction of bad decisions, equipment, and circumstances that all combine to create a life-or-death situation. (Sounds like the opening of the "Seconds from Disaster" TV show, doesn't it?)

If you pay attention to Doug's blog (http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=43), you'll notice that it lists several ideas and pieces of equipment that would have kept the Kims out of the situation or kept tragedy from occurring during the situation.

There really is no one-stop, catch-all piece of equipment that will solve every situation. A PLB, as wonderful as they are, will not keep you warm at night in the snow (unless there's a serious malfunction in your PLB).

If you are really interested in a "key cheap no-excuse-to-not-have-in-any vehicle item or tool if he had with him could have made a difference", then the item in your skull is what fits the bill. Key decisions were made that put the Kim family in a snowbound situation, and then key decisions were made which caused the death of James Kim. A change in any one of these decisions could have likely prevented the tragedy altogether.

Any equipment you carry is only meant to supplement your intelligence to improve your chances. Your brain: Don't leave home without it!

[color:"black"] [/color] i have found it much safer to personaly talk to a forest ranger that at least somewhat knows what area you are going into. they can usually guide you thru points that may be misrepresented on maps, and they usually don't mind helping!!

I think everyone in the civilized world today has forgotten their roots, edible roots, and all other edible plants for that matter. we just don't seem to think we have anything to eat if we're not near a store. i think survival eating should be the big thing we take away from this. face it, he didn't have to freeze if he didn't have to move.

I have been emmerced in this story since first seeing an alarm raised on a SanFrancisco tech blog regarding the missing family, a few hours before it hit the news.
Most of my questions have been answered (many by this forum), but a few still remain. The one I wish to ask now regards building a fire. I keep picturing those burning tires, I keep thinking gasoline, and I keep thinking wood. Billions of pieces of wood. I realize that all the wood on the ground is wet and I suppose higher dead branches are wet as well, but if you put wet wood on a fire burning strong enough, would the water not boil off, allowing the wood to burn? Could you not use gas to feed and build a core fire hot enough to accept scavanged wood? Collect wood, melt snow, thank God mom's got milk, build a raging fire, and keep the fire going. I am an Indiana boy,having no knowledge of this country, but I have built a number of camp fires, often with some scavanging, but I never really had to fall back on wet wood. I would appreciate knowing the fallacy of my image.

I have found that wet wood fires go out pretty easily if unattended and not nurtured. Even when there is a hot bed of coals going, I have found that if I leave a fire alone for about 15 munites, it is out and while it restarts readily because of all the heat it really does need to be tended to.

Sometimes wood is so damp that splitting doesn't help. What have you more experienced folks found? Any tips for fires with damp wood? Fatwood has been a savior for me in the damp.

You bring up a good point. As a kid I grew up in a house that burned wood as the primary heat source. The name of the game is letting the wood season (dry out) for months before it goes on the stack that is to be burned. Then it is imperative that you keep it dry. We had an enclosed back porch that was full of dry wood. The name of the game was keeping it dry.

I have tried to burn brushpiles that were wet before & it is a losing battle. Even with gasoline, kerosine or any other ine's it is next to impossible. That has been my experience.

IMO, The sad truth is those two Bic lighters were worthless once James headed into that woods that was completly soaked with rain, sleet & melting snow. I had temporarily thought he should have kept those shed pants with him for burning & then it dawned on me that they were obviously soaked.

If there is a magic trick to making a fire in that environment I would also love to hear it.

If they were in certain areas in Alaska, then definately so. Similarly, if they were traveling in snowy mountains in winter they will be faulted for not carrying suitable gear to keep them from getting stuck, and suitable gear to allow them to survive if they do.

Amen.

Again, we are supposed to forego preparations for a likely scenario because we can't possibly be prepared or prevent every single possible type of disaster? This seems to be a recurring theme on this thread. I really don't know what to make of it.

I re-read Doug's analysis and, aside from a PLB, he also recommends carrying a well-stocked survival kit, CB radio, cell phone chargers, food and water, a mapping GPS, some form of heater, and suitable clothing. The only thing I saw no mention of that I would absolutely carry for winter mountain travel is tire chains. I would add that if you are not going to carry the other gear, then you damn well better carry the PLB. One wrong turn too many and you are gonna need it.

I've read accounts which indicate he had a GPS, but that means little since he missed his turn onto Hwy 42. Besides the PLB, the one piece of gear I'd have had is a Garmin mapping GPS with turn instructions. Even if I deliberately decided to skip Hwy 42 and took the route that Kim chose in error, following the GPS would have prevented turning onto the logging road and getting way off the beaten track. I checked and while Hwy 42 is in the GPS V's basemap, the route Kim chose for his trip to the coast is not in the basemap, it's only in the detail map I'd need to upload. The logging roads are not there and the GPS would simply show you offroad heading whatever direction.

I don't consider a GPS to be survival equipment, it's just a navigation tool, like maps and compass are tools. However, a good mapping GPS knows where you were, where you are and if you set it up it knows where you want to go. Mine's not even close to cutting edge, 4-level grey LCD display and only 19 Megs of flash memory, but if I was leaving I-5 that leg of the trip would be in memory. One of these days I'll upgrade to a color display with enough memory for the entire western US, but for now I'll make due with a unit that works for me.

This all goes to preventing the situation by avoiding the missed turns. Without the GPS, as soon as I hit snow and looked at my gas gauge I'd have been looking for a place to turn around. There are places to stay in Grant's Pass and Roseburg. Besides, what's the point of a scenic route at night. I've driven through the Sierra's at night and all you can see are the deer grazing by the road.

I have to disagree with the prevailing notion that wet wood makes it exceedingly difficult to start a fire or keep it going. I will qualify my remarks in that my experience may only apply to my own local environment. The key is a little bit of understanding and some practice.

First, don't confuse wet wood with green wood or rotten wood - neither of these will burn very well. But wood that has been dead for a while will usually burn without much fuss no matter how much it has been raining or snowing in the past few days, especially if it was still standing rather than laying on the ground. Even then, its not a big deal as long as its not rotten.

Now, in the Kim's case, it looks like the area was covered with evergreen trees. Pine pitch scraped off a tree trunk is 100% waterproof and makes great tinder. Dead pine needles are very water resistant and make good tinder, producing furnace-like heat when you blow on them.

Now find a smallish dead fallen tree (or a standing one who's roots are rotten enough that you can push it over). Drag it over to your firesite and start at the top. When you've stripped and burned everything that is small enough to break by hand, lay the trunk across the fire. When the end burns off, throw the remaining piece on the fire and slide the trunk over and repeat the process. This is a much easier way to keep a fire going long-term than chopping or sawing.

The only reason I can imagine ever using batoning to split wood is if I need a flat piece of wood for some reason.

I'm relatively new here, but I think Doug maybe holding back out of respect. Plus the other members have covered most of the basic & obvious stuff.

This site is mainly geared towards.

1. Don't get lost.
2. If you are lost survive for a couple days until you are found.
3. Signal for help.

This site has detailed his mistakes pretty well:

James blew #1 above by taking a wrong turn into a mountain pass that many on here have admitted they could have easily done. (I definitely could have made this mistake)

Several have pointed out that as soon as you are lost turn around.(But how many of us men would have wanted to admit defeat & turn around - especially in front of the wife) And I'm not convinced that he realized he was lost & don't honestly know that I would have realized it. When it's dark & the snow is coming down it's kinda hard to read the signs.

They failed on #1,

but had fully met & passed #2 & #3 above.

1. Shelter of the Car.
2. Melting snow for water.
3. Burned tires for minimal warmth & signaling.
4. Written a large SOS in the snow & later used an umbrella for waving at helicopter. (Some have pointed out the mirrors for signaling, but the umbrella worked once a helicopter did fly by)

The surviving & signaling for help hadn't worked for SEVEN days. And they were in a world of hurt because they didn't know when/if help was ever going to come. As a man with two young children who would soon be facing starvation he made the only decision he could think of and that was to go for it. And in spite of all his failures I do think that makes him a hero.

The survival gear discussed most often here isn't going cover you in all situations especially high up in the snow covered mountains. What good are 5 fishing hooks when you're going to die from hypothermia trying to hike down to the creek to go fishing. The winter mountains are a brutal place to be. A PSK & FAK aren't going to help much when there is 3 to 4 feet of snow on the ground & it 20 degrees. A multi-tool for cutting braches that are too soaking wet & frozen to burn isn't going to help. Though a multi-tool along with some cordage could be used to make some snowshoes you still would die from the cold without a fire & better clothing. A really loud whistle is worthless if no one is within 30 miles of you. etc. You can't forage for food when everything is buried under snow & ice. A little candle would be great for the 1st night. The PSK is geared towards a short time period. They had made it way past the initial 72 hours.

Real problems were that they didn't have winter clothing & boots. And didn't have a longterm food supply. Things that are obvious, but the Kims didn't think they were going to need these items.

So that is why the magic bullet is the PLB or OnStar on your vehicle which very few will get because just like the winter clothing & longterm food they don't think they will need them.

James Kim was under a lot of pressure & I personally would rather have died trying than watch my kids starve if in his shoes.

What I have learned is to continue to keep my winter coveralls & boots in my vehicle when traveling in the winter. Even if they are only needed to hike 1/2 mile to closest farmhouse when vehicle is stuck or breaks down. We have a zero degree Coleman sleeping bag in all of our vehicles. I am putting together a very high calorie filled 5 gallon bucket that I will throw in the van on long trips in addition to the BOB. Anytime of the year as you never know what the terriorists will accomplish in our lifetimes. I also will continue to carry a Glock, PSK, FAK even though they wouldn't have saved me in his situation.

Speaking of his situation I read on another forum from someone that lives in that are that there were bear tracks found crossing James tracks. Another reason to always carry a personal firearm even if all it would do is scare the bear or mountain lion, etc.

Thanks for the tip. I guess I have heard that before, but the 120 acres that I grew up on just didn't have any Pine trees & I have no experience trying to burn them dry or wet. Again if he could have made a fire each night this definitely would have turned out different. Warming the body & drying the sweat soaked clothes would have equaled life.

I would love to spend a day on-site where the Kim's were stranded & get to do a hands on testing of so many things like this. I need to plan another vacation to Colorado & do more survival hands on testing.

Digging for roots the first 4 or 5 days with all the snow would have been next to impossible. Though from the pictures it looks like the snow had mostly melted by the time they were rescued.

I would love to hear about what roots would have been available at that elevation. I'm familiar with the dandelion, cattail, etc. that are readily available in my environment. Are you familiar with what was there?

Any radio is better than none and cellphones don't count.

I have read an article where a hiker was saved after his call for help on his FRS has heard 70+ miles away. He was on a mountainside and had a clear line-of-sight to the person who heard him (ideal conditions).

I have a friend who, flying with the Colorado CAP, was able to locate a group of lost hikers using FRS radios. In this case the lost group had become seperated from the main group and it was known that they had FRS radios. Without any radio communications, both of these situations would not have ended as well as they did.

JimJr

Good point:

Just read an interesting tip on another forum in regards to starting a fire & keeping it going in wet conditions. Plastic. Whether it's trash bags, plastic bottles, kids toys, etc.

They burn hot & in some cases for a long time as that oil melts & burns. Adding that to some semi-wet pine needles might mean life or death.

Well, a sat phone + GPS would give similar properties to a PLB. You still need to be able to tell the rescuers where you are. There are some fine point trade offs, but for the purpose of this discusison, the combo would be roughly equivalent.

And yes, they both need to have a pretty clear view of the sky.

The gotcha with sat phones is not the upfront cost, but the monthly charges. While they have come down a lot, they are still semi-expensive.

They are also still kinda big, so if this is your EDC cell phone, it might be a bit bulky.

That said, I'm all for it. Personally, I'm thinking the way to go is buy a PLB and GPS, and rent a sat phone when on certain trips.

On those trips, you can have the PLB in one person's pack, and the GPS/Sat phone in the other in case a pack gets lost/damaged.

Also, regardless of cell phone, radio, sat phone, etc., make sure you protect it from being crushed and protect it from getting wet.

Also consider the implications of the power used. For example, if it uses a rechargable built in battery, what do you do if the battery runs out?

-john

On another thread it was pointed out how stupid the following thought is:



I definitely agree that it is stupid.

Even if you remove the guy's wife & kids and have him driving in the car by himself it is still a major problem. I believe this male instinct (call it competitiveness, ego, drive, determination, etc.) to not want to throw in the towel is got to be one of the top contenders for what puts men in survival situations in the first place. This doesn't look right, but I hate to turn around now & waste all the time I've invested so far.

This built in competitiveness is a TWO EDGED SWORD. It can cause us to accomplish great things, but it can also kill us.

Look at how many men die trying to climb to the top of mountains. Or in the past to be the first to get to the poles. Or the first to cross an ocean in a plane. Or be the first to stand on the moon. When they make it we hail them as heros & they get their names put in our history books. When they fail we point out their mistakes & sweep them from our memories.

If James Kim had hiked out successfully we would have hailed him as brave man who fought the elements & won.

He died so we say (or at least think) what a fool. Here is where he messed up...

Anyone who wants to survive has to recognize this trait & know when to to say no.

Any women reading this post who haven't noticed this about the men in their lives need to start paying attention. Especially if you head to the great outdoors or even if he's only running to the store during a snowstorm because you need milk & bread.

To say the James Kim tragedy was just a series of bad decisions is not digging deep enough. IMO

Maybe it comes from a lifetime of digging people out of the holes they dug themselves in, but I have no problem stopping, turning around, asking directions, etc. My wife and I like to take our little 4WD out onto forest service roads, many of which are in really nasty shape. I have lost count of how many times we have been tooling happily along some beat up road, come upon a really nasty spot, and made the decision to turn around. It is much easier to do that than to spend hours/days/the rest of your life trying to get out of that hole you just put yourself in. It has nothing to do with macho, bravado, or any of that crap. It is called common sense. Something that seems to be in short and shorter supply...

Once they got into the situation they did, he did a herculean effort to try to save his family.
But perhaps the biggest take away is that your greatest resource that you have with you is your brain. Once you get into a bad situation, then your preparedness may determine the outcome. But if you are thinking that it is dark, there are no other cars, the roads are not plowed, I have to stick my head out the window just to see; then no event on the other side is too important, no reservation deposit is too great to have to push on. Stop, re-think the situation, and determine how to get back to a familiar or safe or stable situation. Turn around, but if the conditions don’t improve at find a safe place to wait it out. If anyone else can learn from that, then Kim will have provided more than just education on MP3 players.

As always clothes appropriate for conditions, maybe not always artic sleeping bags but at least snow boots and appropriate jacket. You may not be prepared to be lost, but at least be prepared to at least change a tire.

Just wanted to pass along a link to "The Oregonian" newspaper which has an extensive article this Sunday, 12/17/06:

"Confusion hampered search for Kims"

There seems to be some blame and finger-pointing from both sides of the fence. I suspect this tragedy is going to manifest itself into a lawsuit on the part of the family.

That article made me ill.

" suspect this tragedy is going to manifest itself into a lawsuit on the part of the family. "

Which will drain $ from the state and national forestry and parks service budget so more state/national forests and parks will close.

"I suspect this tragedy is going to manifest itself into a lawsuit on the part of the family."

And why should it not? The authorities there have freely admitted that people seem to die there all the time (a slight exaggeration), and nothing seems to change.

No wonder that law enforcement (et al) consistently fails to coordinate their communication: they can fall back on the old, timeworn excuse when they fail because of their egos and lack of competence.

Let the lawsuits drain Josephine County right into oblivion... maybe the taxpayers will finally revolt and insist that they get their pathetic act together.

For what we pay in taxes, why do we have to rely on volunteer civilians to get the job done?

It's been FIVE YEARS since the WTC went down, there have been decades of hurricanes, and law enforcement hasn't changed one iota. They feed their egos at the expense of people's lives.

Sue

With the canceling of the "O&C Funds" (Federal payments for public land that can't be used to collect taxes, generate revenue, etc.), many rural counties are already broke. Thriving timber and logging operations used to generate money in the communities -- but no longer. A lawsuit can't tap into what doesn't exist.

Being short on money and short on staff makes it a requirement to rely on volunteers, especially for search and rescue. Without them I doubt most places would even have a search and rescue team. I agree with you though, taxes should be spent wisely. But in rural areas we'll never see a fully-paid SAR team. There just isn't enough overhead.

I respectfully disagree as far as punishing the taxpayers of the county -- that isn't the answer. Holding individuals accountable for their actions is; and that includes everyone involved, both the Kim family (poor decisions) and the authorities (poor communication and/or coordination).

Hmm. Interesting article. Sad, certainly.

I take away a different perspective tho. I think that if we really want to see a SAR operation like the one needed to find Kim and his family in time, we need dedicated professional team at a higher level like the state level.

To expect a county to be well versed in a large scale, complex SAR operation is just too much IMO.

You need people who spend their time studying these types of operations, learning and planning.

Let's think about all the things needed in order for this to go right...

1) They would have to have clear understanding of their resources, both government and civilian.
2) They would have had to have a very good chain of information flow and processing.
3) They would have to have good understanding about technology, or at least resources to call upon to help them.
4) They'd have to have a clear command authority for resources.
5) They'd have to have reasonable amounts of the right kinds of resources.
6) They'd have to have good planning and procedures.
7) They'd have to have good planning for cross jurisdictional interaction. Even with state wide authority, you'll still have cases that cross state lines, etc.
8) The managers of these operations need experience.

This just isn't going to happen at the county level IMO. Heck, we'd probably be lucky to do it at the state level.

-john

Sadly this is not all that uncommon. Several years ago, in the area where I was working, several people saw a bright flash and brief fire on a mountainside one night. Two people, one the editor of the local paper and a long time resident of the area, took compass sightings from three separate locations, and reported them to authorities. No search aircraft were avaliable that night. The next day, a plane was reported missing on a flight that would have passed thru that area. The local county authorities did not have their own aircraft, but got the use of a military chopper. But they completely discounted the sigthings reported, and searched an area far away. Another person, a private pilot, heard the story and reported that the "flash" probably occured on the flight path between two VOR sights (aircraft navigation aids). Still the authorities searched in an area far away. Finally two locals got on their dirt bikes and went to the area reported, finding a smoking hole containing the remains of an aircraft and its occupants. And where was this smoking hole? Take a map, draw in the lines of the three compass reading provided, and the line between the VOR's, and there it was, right where the lines cross. Sometimes the people in charge seem to get so impressed with their own importance that they refuse to listen to anyone else

I suspect it is more of a case of tunnel vision.

-john

I also think that this still falls into the arena of personal responsibility. It was a long chain of bad judgments and unfortunate circumstances that led to Mr. Kim's death, most of which were his own choices.

I don't feel the "government" is responsible for this. Signage should be correct, gates should be maintained, and roads that are meant for winter use should be kept plowed and safe. But there's only so much you can do to prevent people from taking wrong turns, driving into the mountains in a storm, entering onto unmaintained roads, or bushwhacking into a steep canyon without the right equipment and information.

Certainly not suggesting otherwise. I'm big on personal responsbility. But I don't think that means we don't want a good SAR capability.

-john

Oh, no question on the SAR.

As an avid snow camper, backpacker and pilot, I've taken steps toward training to help out, including getting my WFR certificate. I believe that those same skills will also help keep me personally from needing to be rescued, though even the most cautious and prepared of us can and do fall into trouble.

If the question is how much the government should be responsible for SAR, that's a tough one, as we to balance revenues and other public programs with what unfortunately is probably a niche need. It's fortunate that there are people willing to donate their time and risk their own safety to rescue others (whether those others got into trouble accidentally or through irresponsibility).

We have well-equipped "USAR" Teams (Urban Search and Rescue) scattered about in every state for responding to urban disasters; it would be nice to have a rural equivalent.

Interesting story about the plane crash, too. The locals knew right where to go.

"...The locals knew right where to go..."

They often do...

One thing to keep in mind with federally funded USAR Teams is that the membership is generally from career Fire Departments. Few, if any can argue that diverting a portion of one’s career staff for a major disaster is not justified. However, short staffing one’s department for an SAR operation is much harder to justify to the jurisdictions supplying the career personal. I doubt that the citizens who end up fronting overtime costs for the remaining personal, who would need to cover the shifts of deployed personnel for an SAR mission, would be too thrilled with the added tax burden and the diversion of necessary services away from their needs.

Many SAR and Technical Rescue Teams are volunteer or associated with local Fire and/or Sheriff Departments. The dedication of these individuals, I believe would never be matched by Statewide career SAR Teams. The cost to the taxpayer for the number of missions on a per capita base would be hard to justify. The United States Coast Guard is one very important exception to that statement.

Monies would be better spent in supporting the efforts of “professional” volunteer SAR and Technical Rescue Teams, who in many cases must pay out-of-pocket for their training and/or equipment. The word “Professional” applies to any rescue person, whether career (paid) or volunteer, who meets and maintains the standards for their specialty, as most jurisdictions require the same level of course work and training.

Of course, I am clearly bias and have very strong feelings on this issue, so take what I say with a grain of salt, although it be a big grain.

Pete

What varieties of Pine trees are up there? I'm wondering if Pine Nuts would be available. A heck of a lot easier to harvest than roots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_nut

"As always clothes appropriate for conditions, maybe not always artic sleeping bags but at least snow boots and appropriate jacket. You may not be prepared to be lost, but at least be prepared to at least change a tire."

This is an excellent point. If you (an imaginary, hypothetical "you" who doesn't read this forum) think it's too much effort (too "paranoid") to prepare for the unforseen emergencies, at least prepare for the common daily set-backs! Cold Weather, for example, happens to people whether they are lost of not, in the wilderness or in the city, even safe in your own backyard you can encounter Cold Weather. So -- prepare for it. Own water-resistant pants and good warm boots. Take them with you when you drive around in the winter. Whether you are lost in the backwoods or forced to walk three blocks for a pay phone, clothing appropriate for the weather is a must.

Okay, I just gotta say . . .

When I lose my car keys, I start the search by looking in the place I found then the *last* time they were lost. When I lose track of my husband in the hardware store I always head for the power tools, because that's where I found him the last time he was "lost". If there is a history of people getting lost on that road, shouldn't that be the first place rescuers search?

They asked for a map of a scenic route and someone actually handed over a map showing Bear Camp Road to be a viable choice? Mountains + Scenic Route + Winter = Bad Idea. Do not hand out these maps! Refuse politely! And who prints these maps and makes them available to innocent tourists? Why isn't there a notation on the map saying "Roads marked by asterix are closed during the winter. Please do not try to drive on these roads."? I have a vague childhood memory of hiking in Colorado using a Forest Service map that had markings to indicate which places a hikier should avoid during hunting season, so a similar map . . .

And I agree with the poster who asked, why would anyone want to drive on a scenic route after dark? You can't see anything anyway. Might as well stick to the highways.

Sorry, but who gets to decide if it's a "Bad Idea"? I Iike to make my own decision on where to go and not have them limited for me. I would hope if I asked for a scenic route, people don't give me directions to the main highway because its "safer". Somtimes people aren't prepared and make unfortunate mistakes, that doesn't mean the rest of us should be punished by limiting our travel.

I don't think the Forest Service should have any responsibility in this case, period. Doesn't matter if they locked the gate or not, if the maps showed this route, or if the lock was cut, or if someone else got lost and died there last week. It's sad to think they have to protect themselves against lawsuits because of peoples own actions.

It is unfortnate that things like this happen, but that's just how life is, sometimes people die. It doesn't mean the government should feel the need to restrict access to these places from the public. At most, maybe put up a couple of well marked signs, but that's about as far as it should go.

I agree. The Forest Service cannot gate and lock every road and every trail in all the National Forests to keep people from making mistakes. You have to take care of yourself.

There are numerous warning signs on the road, long before you even get to the road (Bear Camp Rd) that they were going to take to the coast.

We're talking BIG bright yellow signs. You would have to be blind to miss them, even at night.

Granted, we all make bad decisions at times. But I still can't wrap my mind around why someone would, at night in a blinding snowstorm, take their family consisting of a wife and two small children on such a drive along a one-lane backcountry USFS road.

Especially if the road is unplowed... <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I live in eastern Canada and we have a lot of snow during the winter. If a road is unplowed, I would be hesitant to engage myself onto it. I would ask myself "hey, this is a secondary road, this should be plowed under normal circumstances"... I would constantly be reassessing the situation, up to the point where I know darn well that my front-wheel drive car would have problems : time to turn around.

James Kim should've stopped driving and turned around when he saw that the amount of snow on the road could keep the car from getting unstucked in case of problems.

Not always so! I urge everyone on this forum to read a book, "The Last Place on Earth" (Roland Huntford), the story of Raol Amundsen's race to the South Pole. Amundsen was the first to the Pole, but Robert Scott, who arrived a month later and died returning, was the man who went down in mythical proportions in British history. Amundsen was promptly forgotten! Why? There was certainly nationalistic pride involved and the British fascination with stubborn failures. But beyond that they hated Amundsen because he made it seem simple! Amundsen learned from the native peoples of the north and was committed to a light, fast expedition with dogs as a result. Scott on the other hand struggled south with a huge party and horses! The real message of the book (IMHO): with good advance planning and willingness to learn even the formidable becomes easy. I urge everyone interested in the rigors of outdoor living to read this book.

There are numerous warning signs on the road, long before you even get to the road (Bear Camp Rd) that they were going to take to the coast. We're talking BIG bright yellow signs. You would have to be blind to miss them, even at night ]

Reminds me of a sign that I see every year or two when we do the hike along the Presidential Range in New Hampshire's White Mountains. As you are hiking towards the Madison Spring Hut, right around where you are reaching the treeline, there is a large bright yellow sign from the forest service that says:
STOP
The area ahead has the worst weather in America. Many have died there from exposure even in the summer. Turn back NOW if the weather is bad.

The Presidential Range is the home of Mt Washington, which has quite a reputation from a weather perspective... Just how many people, at that point, actually turn around because of poor preparation or declining weather I wonder?
In fact, I wonder if those who are most prepared, and understand the potential issues ahead of them are more likely to turn around than those who are less "aware" of the reality they face?

Hmm... that's a good sign. I wonder if the USFS / BLM should put up a few like that.

For those interested, the OR State Sheriff's Association has been asked to review the SAR case and the Governor is expecting a full report on his desk by the end of the week. Reason: To identify any areas that might need to be improved or changed in the future.

Also, some of those involved have mentioned that the scathing "Oregonian" newspaper article contained false statements and quotes.

That still assumes people would pay attention to the sign.

I wish I could remember the way they worded another trail warning around the Crawford Path. It says something crazy like "if you're not an amazing physical specimen, you are likely to go into cardiac arrest before the summit". That's not exactly how they word it, I should take more pictures of this stuff when we're up there! The signs certainly catch your attention more than the typical "hiking can be dangerous, be careful" signs.

I've seen the same amount of creative signs blocking country roads. Such signs like "protected by Smith and Wesson", "Violators will be shot", "dead end road", etc and people will still open the gates and drive on through. When I was young I always wondered my my father would get so upset when people would open the gate and drive up our own farm road, but as I get older and see some of the stupid things people so I think I would do the same now. I'd probably lock them in and call the local police and press charges without asking anymore and not even confront them, no matter how innocent they claim to be when they opened the closed gate that had to trespassing signs all over it.

To emphasize what some others have said, a $40 pair of heavy tire chains
and a sturdy shovel can get you back out of situations like this.

In California you are required to carry tire chains when the chain controls are on (on the interstates most every time it snows)
If you have a 4 or
all wheel drive and good snow tires, you usually are not required to put them on,
but you will still get a ticket if stopped and you are not carrying some.

And, I have recently learned, if you go to Les Schwab Tires (if you are in the right part of the country), you can buy a set of chains, then return them unused for a full refund. So even if your trip to snow country is a one time deal, and you don't want to buy a set of chains, you can get some, then get your bucks back later. And if you had to use them, at least you got unstuck...

I used to have chains for my 2wd truck until one winter I had to use them. My father was scheduled to have prostate cancer surgery Monday morning and its an hour drive to the hospital on normal days. We went down to be there for support and over a foot of snow was dumped on us that weekend. He was supposed to be at the hospital at 6am so we had to leave their house at 4am. One chain completely broke going up the first big hill but luckily I had installed a lock rite which is an auto locking differential so the one chain was enough to make it up the hills although it pulled very hard to one direction a lot. I ended up beating up one fender pretty good when one of the cross chains broke loose on a steep part where I didn't want to stop. I ended up buying a 4x4 truck because even though I got buy with never needing 4x4 for over 10 years there was that one time I was away from my home and we had to go out.
Got in another snowstorm around the MD/PA state line riding with my cousins 4x4 and the state police let us though the roadblock since he had a 4x4 and the volunteer FD sticker but were turning a lot of people around.

You still carry chains with your 4x4, right? And now a few lap links and
some pliers so you can quickly fix your chains.

A pair of large link chains along with a shovel
will get you out of places that 4x4 would be stuck without em.

Cable chains are nice for the highway when it is super icy, even
with 4x4 cause they will stop you quicker, but for deep snow, mud
and sand, link chains will really dig you out.

Has anyone had any experience with some of the "non-chain" traction aids? I have seen something called: Flex-Trax GoClaws in various outfitter catalogs like Cabela's. I see that they have their own website: http://www.flextrax.com/

It looks like an interesting device. I would not expect it to perform as well as chains, but, for ease of use, it seems like it might give you the extra traction, without the hassles of chains. I've thought about getting a new set of chains since I changed vehicles (and tire sizes) recently. When I saw these, I wondered if anyone has used them and might share their observations. Thanks.

I have not yet because the tire size is different now so I will need to buy new ones. I haven't made any winter trips since then so help keep the risk low. Plus my new truck has a locking rear (though its a delayed lock) and real 4x4 (not some slippy AWD) so it has three wheel drive where my 2wd truck with the locker was two wheel drive. So its a little more capable before adding chains.

I am locking this thread. I read the Iliad in greek faster than this thread <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.This is just to make more current treads more readilly accessable.