My final firearm decsion..Please beat me up

Only one = .22 LR probably bolt action

Anything I want within reason = .22 LR, .454 pistol and leaver action, 12 guage pump.

What can't I do with the above pray tell?

Thanks

Cameron

Unless you are planning a trip to the Dark Continent it looks like you've got a pretty practical battery. If you don't already handload I'd think about it; that .454 stuff is expensive and could be hard to find if TSHTF. If I were you I might consider adding an inexpensive semi-auto like an SKS, but that's just me.

might have missed an earlier thread but what is your reason for buying a firearm?

Cameron,
I like the .22LR bolt gun and the 12 ga pump (Rem 870?), but what is the .454 revolver supposed to do? Do you intend to hunt with it?

In selecting a firearm, remember the parable of Mel Tappan. He wrote the book on survival guns (entitled, oddly enough 'Survival Guns"), wrote a column for guns & ammo. Thought a lot about guns-he liked them large bore and semi-automatic-and clearly felt that guns were necessary to rpotect him from his most serious survival threat-economic collapse and rioting. So he moved to rogue river oregon, a tiny village about 11 staute miles from nowhere, and practiced marksmanship. The economy did not collapse, rioters never reached rogue river, and the man died of congestive heart failure at age 47. Everybody has to die, but 47 is early and chf is treatable. He apeears to have mis-assessed his threat scenario. if he had lived near a major medical center, he might well have survived the chf...for a while, anyway. Guns are not always the answer.

We won't have to beat you up; the .454 will do that just fine.
Have you ever shot a .454? It kicks like a mule.
I doubt that would be a good choice for a handgun plus the ammo is not plentiful.
If you need a big caliber I would suggest .357 or .44 magnum instead.

I always love to get into these guns discussions as I am a certified "gun nut" according to my friends and co-workers. but that's ok, I don't qualify to be any sort of "survivalist" at least not in the sense of a negative label. anyone on this website I guess we can all be labeled something of the sort right. anyway, I think maybe the selection of your survival weapons largely depends on where you live...for instance, me in Alaska, that 454 might be a good option if I found myself living in a tent in the bush somewhere. the pump shotgun, is a must with slugs, buckshot, and bird shot. The 22 is a must if for nothing else than grouse, rabbits, and self defense. yeah, I know the .22 is not usually regarded as a self defense weapon, but in the hands of a guy that's shot a jillion rounds out of one, do not get shot by him as you will die from wounds to your noggin. Silliness aside, if your home is a bit ore urban, you would need to maybe consider a larger self defense weapon such as a Glock 19 or so in caliber and size. The 19 is a 9mm compact pistol in case your not familiar with the Glock line. A good supply of ammunition would already be in your garage., or apartment because you are the type of person who believes in being prepared right?? in the event of riots, or other urban chaos of sorts, I doubt the ability to run down to the Wal-Mart to grab a box of ammo would be a good idea. as for a rifle, even in the urban situation, my choice would be an AR-15, but if your budget doesn't allow such a thing, the Ruger Mini-14 is an outstanding piece for this type of work. I remember seeing several law enforcement guys and even some civilians with the Mini-14 slung over their shoulders during the chaos that ensued after Hurricane Katrina. The Mini-14 always fires, even after the AR-15 has gummed all up. I know because I am fortunate enough to own both. I would venture that we're not ever going to see a large scale breakdown in the society but major disasters always seem to bring out the worse in many. It is here that just having a weapon sometimes is the difference in living or dying at the hands of thugs that prey on the innocent during such times. Not meant to preach, or be on a soapbox, just a few opinions. thanks for the opportunity to express them to you.

It's not clear what you want to do with this setup. I wouldn't like to have to carry this gear around simultaneously. You could protect yourself from or hunt (with the exception of birds on the wing) any land creature in the western hemisphere with much less - some kind of 308/30-06 bolt or semi-auto rifle and a good .22 long barrel pistol.

Can't reliably hit a target at >150yds for one.

Weird set up to say the least.

What caliber is the lever action?



What are you trying to do?

Self defense, hunting, plinking? clay sports? what??? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I live in mid michigan. My choice would be 22-cal semi auto with scope 30-30 lever action--12 ga mosburg pump 357 mag. model s19 S/W. will handle any and all needs for fire armsinmy part of the country.

Swap the 454 for 44 mag - ammo availibity.
Add a 308 or larger rifle for hunting deer/elk. (the 454 lever would work for deer - know your range limit.)
Maybe consider a good 22 pistol instead of a rifle - portability.

Probably kick less than that .454!!!

Is that for squirrel hunting?

Cameron

I think it is to make squirrel burgers.

Cameron,

What bolt action .22 are you thinking of? Are you going to put a scope on it? What kind?

Thanks!

I've only shot one .454 in my life, a scoped Freedom Arms 6" or thereabouts. It kicked a lot less than my .44 mag Mtn Gun. Probably a result of more weight + better grips.

As far as some of the other comments go, I think having your rifle and pistol shoot the same round can have its advantages. And if you are going to go that route, the .454 makes sense because of its greater power. Add to that the fact that .45 LC can be fired out of it also. It would not be my first choice but it ain't half bad either. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You might have something there. I have never fired a .454, or a .44 Mtn Gun, but I used to have a standard S&W Mod 29 4" .44mag, and with some ammo that was the hardest kicking, most uncomfortable to shoot handgun I ever owned. It could HURT...

Assuming you mean the .454 Casull, it can be very versatile. Ruger’s Alaskan fires both .454 and .45 Colt. The .45 Colt can be had in as many configurations and power levels as a .44 mag, including light loads such as are used in Cowboy Action competitions. Take the Alaskan to a qualified gunsmith and it can be machined to also accept .45 ACP in moon clips, added further versatility and ammunition availability.

Are by lever action, you are referring to a Model 94 or 336? If so, IMO a rifle in .308/30-06 class that allows the use of spitzer bullets would cover more possible uses. I prefer bolt guns. Don’t disagree on the .22 or 12 gauge but if I could only take one, it would be a 30-06.

Hi Cameron,

Without knowing your level of experience with firearms and ability to reload, to afford more ammo, etc, I would suggest something more conventional than the 454 revolver. The 454 is a monster, heavy weapon, heavy recoil, expensive ammo. If you only shoot occasionally the big recoil of the 454 could cause a flinching situation where your shooting skills suffer.

I suggest you try to shoot as many centerfire weapons as possible until you find one that suits you the best, has common ammo, and is 100% reliable. A good revolver choice would be a S&W 28 Highway Patrolman - is is a large frame 357 that will outlast your grandchildren if well cared for. If you are on a budget and don't anticipate hunting bears then a plain old police revolver in .38spl or .357 would be just fine despite what many on this board would say. Ruger, Colt, S&W are fine, I would avoid knock offs if possible. And you would be able to save the rest of the money to set up to cast bullets and reload.

If you decide for a semi auto pistol, anything is good from high quality makers like Glock, Sig, SA, HK, S&W, etc. I chose the Glock 23 since the FBI really tested them and i've grqwn to trust then without question. Don't get carried away with the 'more expensive must be better' - I've carried a few different weapons on the job and the pricier Sigs don't have all the features of the Glocks and our duty weapons were recalled a couple of times for springs and pins.

Also, please keep an open mind to pocket pistols such as the Beretta Jetfire, NAA mini revolver, etc, although they aren't impressive and powerful, they can be with you just about all the time in non-survival scenarios when you are legally able to carry. Trappers like small weapons like that for dispatching game and it sure packs better in your front pocket than a 454 Casull!!!

Regarding the .22 bolt action - excellent idea! If you shop around at shows you should be able to find old Marlin bolt action 22 rifles cheap that will shoot circles around the 'survival' rifles all day long! Single shots are fine for hunting and you don't have to worry about lost magazines or complexity. For under 100 bucks you should be able to set up a scoped .22 with a sling attached that will serve you quite well.

For a long gun it's just as open as anything else and depends upon your preference. I like my Mausers in 30.06, they are reliable, very accurate (1 MOA with my own cast bullets) and built to last many lifetimes. The '06 is a great cast bullet cartridge which can't be said for many modern cartridges. The .303, 8mm, 7mm, etc are also great but not classic American calibers so ammo will be available on a so-so basis. The 30-30 is a super cartridge for bullet casting as well, only issue I can see is that the action type isn't as durable as a military turnbolt. Just go to a gun show and check out well used military bolt actions against old lever rifles, the lever guns will wear sooner although for most shooters the issue is null.

Mausers are extremely reliable due to the camming action applied to the case when cartridges are extracted and loaded so they won't fail as readily as a semi auto but again, semis are used all over the world with great success so we are splitting hairs here. You should be able to set up a surplus bolt action with lee loader for under 200 bucks. A used lever gun will require full length casae resizing (reloading press) and the whole thing should be less than 300 bucks if you shop on EBay for your reloading gear.

The military rifles are a little expensive and more regulated in some areas but some designs (AK, FAL, HK, and to some extent, the AR15 family) are tried and true, if that's your thing and you are willing to familiarize yourself a bit more than they are good too.

Finally, the shotgun is something that can protect you, provide game, and is the best overall long weapon available with minimal training. A pump action would be very good and affordable - I have seen used Remington 870 Express models go for under 140 bucks and, with a slug barrel, are really all you need. Reloading is a snap with an old LEE shotshell loader from EBay that will fit in a shoebox with powder, primers, wads, and some shot (the wads and shot are bulky/heavy perspectively). I prefer the Remington 870 but the Mossbergs, Ithaca 37, Winchesters are just fine. Again, it's your preference, just avoid oddball versions and shoot the heck out of them to make sure everything works (Ithacas develop weak followers, Remington Shell latches go bad, the others develop issues as well). Buy new ones if you can afford it or learn basic repair from an AGI video or some other resource and repair your own if you are mechanically inclined.

Overall, pick the weapon that works best for you and develop talent with it. Don't wory about impressing anyone with it as a show-and-tell item - most survival type weapons are about as glamorous as a pipe wrench.

About shooting - Not to say that there aren't great mentors out there that instill excellent shooting values among their children, but the worst and most unsafe shooters I won't shoot with are 'experts' on firearms and were taught to shoot by family members. I have been at informal shoots where all kinds of really stupid things happened and I'd rather not be there again. Just learn to be a safe and accurate shooter and seek professional training if you are a beginner.

Zardoz,

Great advice!

Also good movie!

Thanks Craig!

No scope.

For my own personal use especially for .22 I don't want to worry about dinging a scope. (grab and go) Would be very interested in your opinion of the pro's of a scope if you don't mind sharing.

Cameron

IanPorter,

Thanks for the input. Yes .454 Casull. Alaskan is my preference. As mentioned earlier .454 isn’t extremely common but .45 hopefully would be.

What are “moon clips”?

I agree a .308/30-06 is preferable. However I really like the idea of interchangeable revolver and rifle rounds. I have not done much research on .454 rifles what is your opinion of Model 94 or 336. Additionally I would guess .45 would also fire in .454 chambered rifle Yes? No? Please educate me if you don’t mind and have the time.

Many thanks in advance.

Cameron

Telescopic sights are a nice option for hunting and scouting. Cheap sights are not terribly handy, telescopic of otherwise. I've used Leupold telescopic sights in some of the most rugged conditions I care to encounter, and they've remained as functional as the firearm they were mounted to, despite dings, abrasions, impacts and the ravages of adverse atmospheres. I am a more efficient and proficient shooter using telescopic sights than without.

Iron sights are not obsolete, even at long range. I believe it requires greater skill and experience to be as proficient with iron sights as with telescopic sights, but then again I've always been an advocate of practice. At the range I have no trouble shooting out the 1" bullseye with a few magazines of 22 lr in my Ruger 10/22, once I've settled into the groove and got acquainted with my sight picture. That is really what telescopic sights facilitate is the sight picture. It isn't about the maginification so much as the precision and the focal parity of the sights with the target. I can probably shoot my hunting rifle more accurately offhand with my sight set at 4 power magnification than at 9 power, for a number or biomechanical reasons.

The majority of service firearms aren't going to be equipped with telescopic sights, and that's another very good reason to practice shooting with open sights more. On a rifle a modern telescopic sight is not significantly encumbering, so my preference would be to use it if I have it, but on a pistol, there are times when telescopic sights would be debtrimental to bringing the arm to bear on target expeditiously. A hunting pistol can benefit from the addition of a telescopic sight in the intended application, but for use as a self defense weapon, it is likely already marginal to begin with.

Judging from the brass left at the range and from what is available at the
small nearby drugstore, here is what is most commonly available for ammo in order of quantity found.
If you reload, this is a good list for what is available for free pickups
too. (of course not the rimfires)

22 long rifle
12 gauge shotshell
9mm pistol
30-06
223
38 and 357 pistol
30-30
308
various 40 and up caliber pistol

There used to be lots of 7.62x39, (though non reloadable)but no more, don't know why.

Get a bolt action 30-06 with scope and learn to reload both jacketed
and cast bullets. Then you can make your own bullets if needed and also
load down to quieter, lighter loads when needed. There is load data for
most any powder made from bullseye pistol powder to the slowest
magnum powders. And 308 caliber has the largest selection of bullet
types.

My understanding is Venezuela ordered millions of rounds of 7.62x39 from Russia, drying up the supply of cheap, surplus rounds for export to USA. Most mail-order places were out of it for a year or more. I could only find it at gun shows. It's just starting to show up again at on-line stores.

-Blast

I was also told the Iraq army and police force ordered large amounts and that helped in making it “hard” to find. I know my local Cabelas was out for a few months, and when they did get it in the price was higher.

There's still a lot of 7.62x39. It is still inexpensive, just not cheap. The domestic stuff is about 0.50 per round for JSP(Remington, etc), the Russian stuff is still $150 for 1000 rounds of FMJ or JHP. That's still not bad.

Good for deer or SHTF <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Cameron,

I am now in my 50s and I have to wear bifocals or progressive lenses. For me, I can see the target better with a scope. At the distance small game is normally taken, a scope is not needed.

When I was in the Army, it was obvious that as it gets dark the iron sights get close to invisible. A scope will make the target easier to see, as the light fades. However, the cross-hairs also start to disappear as it gets dark. Glowing cross-hairs and a white or tritium front sight could be a wonderful thing.

Only hits count.

Accuracy comes from a good barrel, trigger and sights. Focus on the front sight/cross-hairs and concentrate on the trigger. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

check this one out. A 22/410 the 410 when shooting slugs at 50 yds. has the same power as a 357. this will take care of most of my problems when out in the bush.
http://members.cox.net/alclarkson/

Check this out about the shotgun slugs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm

410? good for rabbits at 50 ft.

Cameron
Sorry, I don’t get to spend much time on line lately.
A moon clip is a round disk of spring steel (usually) that has cut outs for the cartridges to snap into. They come in full moon (6 rounds) half moons (3 rounds) and quarter moons (2 rounds, hard to find). The star extractor on a revolver won't work on a rimless cartridge like the .45 ACP without one. I had a 1917 S&W that used moon clips, I wish I still did. Wild West Guns in Alaska does the conversion, as I am sure do others, and is a quality company. They build very nice takedown Marlin 336 customs also. http://www.wildwestguns.com

My preference is the 336, easy to disassemble and can be cleaned from the breach. Plus side ejection allows for easier optics mounting. I don’t know if the factory chambers for .454 Casull.

Ian

Mel comes up often in posts like this, and I'm surprised that people so easily bash a dead man's reputation while having so little facts.

People fail to note that Mel was wheelchair bound (for some time) and diabetic. Some try to make it appear that he was a healthy 47 year old who was so obsessed with surviving when the SHTF that he lost sight of the need to deal with the here and now.

From what I have read about Mel (written by people that knew him), there were other severe health factors involved in his death. CHF is treatable, but for how long? He died in 1980. Perhaps he had been suffering with it for 20 years.

In response to the original poster, you can't go wrong with a bolt action 22 and a Remington 870 pump.

Who makes that rifle?