Survival Tins

I've been spending some time lately browsing these pages trying to determine how best to go about putting together my own survival kit. I've now got one together, based on Doug Ritter's survival kit, but I could't find a suitable rectangular tin. So, being that I am a new father again, I stole one of the baby's Penaten Cream tins. The only downfall is it is circular. But I think I 've managed to put a good deal in it. I couldn't quite get everything that Doug has in his, and I've added a couple of things of my own. <br><br>Does anyone have any experience with round tins verses rectangular ones? I find that it actually works better as my snare wire, thread, and nylon line can all be coiled into the bottom of the tin. My Penaten Cream Tin has a volume of 10.67 cubic inches where Doug's has a volume of 10.98 cubic inches, but obviously I am limited by the shape of the can. All my space is used up by packing with smaller items like safety pins and dryer lint for fire starter. I also came across some alcohol preps from a first aid kit, similar to small individually packaged wet wipes. These contain isopropyl alcohol. Would these be viable fire starters as well? <br><br>I am going to find some waterproof paper and cut it into circular pages which will fit into the upper tin and also protect my shiny inner surface. One of these sheets of paper will also contain survival notes.<br><br>So rounds tins versus rectangular ones! Any comments?<br><br>Ironbird<br><br>

Sounds like Jonathan Swift's satire on cracking eggs on the small or large ends leading to war LOL. Id save the alcohol prep pads for first aid. I tried it and they consumed themselves to rapidly. Barry at BlueLine Outfitters sells the BCB tins. These are much larger than the Altoid tin I started with and my current twin pack of Swedish tins ( sold out). It pushes convenient daily carry. I am slowly building it up to reside in my packer coat. As an aside; larger tins are advantagous for heating smalll quantities of water. Notice I didn't say boil! Most of these tins will be irrepairably warped or scorched. If you carry a small esbit stove or similar unit it pays to have a stable mating of the two. there is no rule against carrying more than one unit! I have one dedicated just for meds and it's G.P. mate.

Oh dear if you can't get the altoids tins your never gonna make it in tight spot! Oh Dear Me!!! Try any phamacy if you must have them. the mints are pretty good too! yeah I know I ain't exactly hiddin ther sarcasim.....<br><br>I see thing a bit different and would not give 2 cents for an altoids tin. The have a built in stamped hindge that will allow water in fast! I like the french candy tins that are round and seal pretty tight. These will keep out water even if dropped in a pond for a pretty long time. I bend out the bottom, as to begin with they are dome up. it ends up looking like 2 tops more or less when done.<br><br>I don't keep the same things in my tin as most here do, so I won't comment much on that, but since both tins hold fire makings one way or the other, you just might want to keep out water for the most part.<br><br>I heat my tin red hot often and so it is grayish black. Since my tin is part of fire making..a tool, I don't care what color it is, so long as it is water tight

A co-worker "donated" an extra large Altoids mint tin to me. It can hold three regular Altoid mint tins inside with some headroom to spare. It has sort of a brushed surface that will not strip dwn to bare metal and the lid has the Altoids logo as a raised embossing. Both the top and the bottom are formed into a slight dome. I tried to hammer down the bottom dome flat to regain some space, but it springs right back up.<br><br>I'm not sure how I'll use this box, if at all. My initial thought was to make a super kit for my pack using three small tins inside, one of which would be my PSK. But then my PSK would be sepaated from me should I lose the pack somehow. But, since most of my outdoor activity is restricted to car camping, that's not a likely scenario, although still possible as anything can go wrong in an emergency.<br><br>Amyway, I just couldn't resist the tim when it was offered to me. :-)

One thing on the large survival tin front you might consider is the compact mess tin made by trangia of sweden, it's rectangular, got the capacity of around 3 tobbacco tins, has a fitted lid and detatchable handle. I use this in my ruck for my main emergency/medical kit and carry my psk in a tobbacco tin in my pocket. They cost around £7 ($10 ish) and should be available from most camping stores i guess.

They are impossible to find in the US. Try Blueline, it would be your only shot. <br>Recently, I started a thread "enough is enough" about procuring exactly this. I received many helpful private responses including some very generous folks willing to mail me from overseas.

Sounds like the rectangular tins that Maxwell Housed used about four or five years ago, to celebrate thier hundredth birthday. Supposedly a collectors thing, but they made a couple million of them, so.....<br><br>I've got one or three kicking around here, and they are about the size of a brick. Might not be a bad container. Hmm......

I just discovered this thread, so sorry about resurrecting it.<br><br>I noticed most of the responses pretty quickly switched from 'are rectangular tins better than round ones?' to 'which rectangular tin is the best?' <br><br>I firmly believe that the most important aspect of a survival kit is that you have it when you need it. Read the story on this website (http://www.equipped.org/waldock698.htm) about the two small aircraft crashes, where a Wilderness Survival Instructor (*an INSTRUCTOR*) died of hypothermia after a plane crash in which he sustained only minor injuries. ("Them that can, do; them that can't, teach." :-) His carefully packaged survival kit was later found in the trunk of his car at the airport. A SAK in your pocket is better than the most carefully crafted PSK in a car 50 miles away.<br><br>I haven't thought of using a round tin, or of the Altoids not being watertight. The big advantage to the Altoids tin, IMO, is that will fit in a shirt pocket. Maybe that's not where I'd want to keep it, but the point is, if I have to exit a burning aircraft, I don't want to have to stop and look around for my survival kit, I want something in my pockets that will be there without me having to think about it. I may not even take time to grab my Mega-Keyring out of the ignition.<br><br>So if a round tin does that, and is reasonably waterproof to boot, who cares what other people think? It's not a fashion statement :-)

Willie, i also have one of thoes "extra large altoide tin's. At first it seemed like i would never get the paint off and get to the metal surface. What i did was put some paint remover(turpentine) on it and visicoulsy scraped at it with a large metal file this took a little time and elbow grease but it worked.

I switched from Altoids tins to those pretty little Fench candy tins. They're round, and fold into each other. <br>With clear tape on the outside they're waterproof. I like a little rattle in them, and leave the outside trade packaging on. When I have to empty my pockets at a metal detector nobody gives it a second look, and I neither have to go to the trouble of opening it up and/or explaining to some moron what it is. A lesson I learned from my first one that I went to the trouble of stripping with paint remover. The inside is shiney enough for signalling anyway.

Altoid tins were first used by the british SAS units. Their near universal distribution and association with this idea has made them the standard container. Eventually most people locate a larger unit. I have my Altoids, Swedish surplus aluminum boxes, BCB unit and tobacco tin. Chris Janowski of WSI markets his kits in round containers. Containers go back a long way ; back there with knives and fire, the first mimicked copy of a cave or natural brush shelter, the ones carried by Oetzi.I like them all, provided my mind isn't taped into one.

I emailed Doug several years ago (and got a reply) about using an altoids tin. I know that this is incredibly vain, but I wonder if I was "the first"? I don't have an archive of that email but Doug might.

Chris; Good points, as always. But I may be approaching this from a slightly different point of view than others on this forum. <br><br>A few years ago, my local branch of the Recreational Aircraft Association (similar to the EAA, we're a bunch of home-builders) was looking for potential topics of interest for our monthly meeting guest speakers. I suggested to the co-ordinator that a lecture on Wilderness Survival in the event of an off-airport landing would be of interest; he responded "Okay, I'll put you down for June." And hey presto, I was an "instant expert" ;-)<br><br>One of the criticisms I got at that lecture was when I showed my own "survival kit", which at that time fit inside a large Ziplock Freezer Bag (IIRC). The response was "I fly a homebuilt, I barely have enough room for an overnight bag, let alone all that stuff." I have since found out that the majority of people can't be bothered to keep a survival manual in their glove compartment, let alone carry a PSK when they're hiking in a Provincial or National Park. (I wonder if the fact that they're in a 'Park' gives them a sense of false confidence?) <br><br>So I personally would prefer to have a PSK that is small enough to fit in my shirt or jacket pocket and let me forget about it, with a larger SK in my backpack. I figure the SAS Pocket Guide in one jacket pocket, the Altoids tin in another, and a Survival blanket in my shirt pocket *should* be enough to see me through most nights.

One thing I forgot to mention, that I like about the rectangular tin; you can Krazy Glue several lighter flints to the outside rim. You can't do that on a circular tin, that I can see, and still be able to strike a decent spark.

Andy,<br><br>Close, perhaps very close, but no cigar. <br><br> While you were early (I keep all my outgoing email and my reply to you was on 11/30/98), not quite early enough. The frist email I have that mentions an Altoids tin was off the primitive survival listserve on 1/9/98, first message to me suggesting one for use in a PSK was on 4/5/98. You appear to have been number six in that sequence. <br><br>Bear in mind that I started using this email software when I got my new computer at that time for the holidays in 1997, anything prior would have been lost and quite frankly, I don't really recall if there was one prior. That was also not long after the first PSK kit info was posted to ETS, where I requested other suggestions. <shrug><br><br>What a trip down memory lane...<br>

Cool! Thanks for the reply!

I find the round tin, to be more water tight. That about the only difference... I was making lite of it.....I prefer water tight, and if the Altoid tin was I would prefer it for size. Both will fit a shirt pocket...... I have both, but do not store fire making in the Altoids... Like I said I don't keep and use the main stream items used here. But then I don't fly. I am curiouse as to how "Flints" glued to a tin can be used, as what do you do with them? Mac<br>

>>. I am curiouse as to how "Flints" glued to a tin can be used, as what do you do with them?<br><br>Start a fire. They're just regular lighter flints. Same as the idea somebody had of gluing 5 of them to a key blank and carrying it on your keychain. <br><br>I think most of the stuff inside my Altoids tin is fairly waterproof anyway. Candle, snare wire, fish hooks, fishing line, dental floss, needles, wire saw, metal rings for the wire saw (of different sizes, so one can fit inside the other), aluminium foil, Fresnel lens, 4 waterproof matches. The whistle has no pea to get waterlogged. I don't know about the hexamine tablet - would that dissolve in water? <br><br>How watertight is the round tin, anyway? (Would it survive a trip through the washing machine?) And realistically, how watertight does it need to be?<br><br>Philosophically, I tend to believe in redundancy rather than quality. Having the most expensive mag-flint combination in the world on my keychain is no use if my keys are in the aircraft ignition and the aircraft is under 40 feet of water.

The round tin is water tight enough to float.. and to keep tinder dry.... Like I said I don't do the same things as others here do with the tins... And I do not fly.... I did start to fly once, and I liked it but things took a turn in life and I never went back to flying....<br><br>In my tin is a 3/4" ball of Guda cheese wax... No one here seems to have that.. I have fixed cuts in my canoe with it. I keep a 1750-1840 circa flint and steel, and a bit of jute twine. The twine can be cordage, or tinder, along with any linen, or cotton that has been charred.... Also I have 2 kinds of shelf fungas which catch and hold sparks. A burning lens from a broken binoculars set. A bone bodkin from a deer Ulna , and steel ball point needles, with deer sinew, and common polyester/cotton thread. Sometimes there is a bit of synthectic sinew, which is a extremly strong nylon, that can be split down to 6 sometmes 8 parts all of equal length.<br><br>So my kit must stay dry.... charr, fungas, sinew, and jute twine are about usless soaked..<br><br>I know some tins act as a double duty mirror for some here. Mine does not, but it is the tool that I make charr with. I highly disagree with the idea that heating these tins red hot, and often harms them.<br><br>I burn the paint off mine as best I can, and don't bother to worry about the white residue that remains for a few ore burnings.... After the first I would say the tin gets very hot, but maybe not red hot anymore. What I do is add materials what ever they may be to charr, and toss the tin in a fire,,,watch for the smoke to stop, flip the tin, watch again, and remove the tin...... Then with-draw the tin from the fire and let it cool untill it is cool to the touch....If you open it hot the charr will go up fast....<br><br> I attempt to have my charr cook to some black with tan when done. The reason is that the tan while it won't catch a spark, will blow into a flame. The full black charr will not blow into a flame and must have tinder added.<br><br>I have given many of these tins to cold folks in the past....<br>Often I have found folks that were suffering from being out in "Ice in the Bucket" weather. That is when the fungas comes in handy beside being a good spark catcher, it can be added to in size, and once it has a spark water is the only way to stop it. It will act like a coal in a almost no O2 environment... A very good pocket heater once wrapped in a rag, and placed in a pocket near the heart.<br><br>I do redundancy as well..... I wear a hat that has needles, and threads tucked in the band, and a small razor sharp blade made from a file tucked in the rear hem. That blade is a total of 1" long, about 1/2 is handle, but it will slice bull elk neck hide in one determined slice. That elk is 1/2"+ thick often.<br><br>I have forgottenabout that tiny blade to go fly on a commercial jet places, and not had a problem, but the way things are now I better not forget it...... I am not sure how to go about flying these days as often I need a cutting device at the airport where I land.... My luggage ain't exactly what you would condsider the "Norm" either ;-)<br><br>The main problem is redundancy for the flint and steel type I use, but I carry 1 in a pocket, 1 in a shooting bag, and 1 on a hunting belt, that is a 2 finger size. Also my flint gun will do the job empty or loaded. Never using gun powder ever!!!!! That would be a error, and wastefull....<br><br>I have carried fishing hooks, but don't need too. I can make them from a needle if forced to. I prefer to make them from a twig and bits of owl (or other) droppings which contain white bone. The bone acts as bait. Beech twigs have just the right shape, and wrapped with sinew and waxedover they are waterproof and will take trout all day long.<br><br>I have not used a band aid in some years, and see no reason to carry such a thing.... I guess some folks don't want to stain clothing..... When I get cut I force blood from the wound for a bit to clean it... Wash with water, and forget it.....For a bigger cut a band aid ain't gonna do squat anyway... so I see no point. For that rags and or moss work for me. I try not to get cut that bad. usually when I get cut it is what some folks would think is a very bad cut, but I am used to it.... If you show me a flint knapper that don't get cut, he ain't been knappin.... pretty simple concept... Some of the stone I work is 400 X sharper than the best surgical steel known today, and it does not cut, it divides molecules. When you divide molecules about 1/2 deep x 1 1/2" long you tend to bleed profuslly, and the common band aid for that works about as good as tryin to hold back the St. Lawrence River with a Kotex....It ain't a happin deal, if you know what I mean...<br><br>Well I hope that explains part of my views on this..... Sorry about the length....... BTW I still don't know how you use the flints glued to a tin/kek or other?? How do you get a spark? and what do you catch that spark with? I ain't got a clue... Mac

Thanks for the tip about taking char to part-black part-tan, I'll try that- though it must take a pretty good judgement to pull the tin at the right time- perhaps you're packing your char tin tighter than I do. I've always taken it to all black, and used seperate tinder to take the ember to flame. Along with cotton, linen, and bracket fungus, I've had good success using punk (dry, rotted wood) for making char. It doesn't flame, but it catches and holds a spark well.<br><br>I have a tiny 2-finger firesteel, the classic closed "C" shape with curlicues, that is only 2 inches long and was dug up along Braddock's Road. I can barely get two fingertips into it, but it sparks well. I have heard people say that they did not make them this small. It's not true.<br><br>As I'm sure you know, modern cigarette lighter "flints" are not flint and will strike sparks with any hard-edged striker, not just with a properly hardened firesteel. So long as they are partly exposed, then, a row of them can be glued into any groove, end to end, and a sharp edge run down the length will strike a shower of sparks. It's putting a lot of faith in the glue, though.<br>

HUH? wasp nest makes good tinder? Hmmm... I use it for the exact opposite reason to load shot in a flinter, ad the nest does not ember like cotton patches do... Hmmm....<br><br>Yup I have a copy of a 2 finger steel. they existed..... I have a 2 fisted kitchen stell too... the rest are slight 4 finger steels...<br><br>Braddocks Road in Md? it is said he buried under the road there..... no marker, as the body was hidden.... perhaps not in Md at all... One can never tell with the way records were kept...... My Grande Mother was born in Novia Scotia and the townhall burned to th ground..... So she lied about her age and no one could prove, tell, figure out how old she was...<br><br>I will have to test the wasp nest.... Hair works great if you can stand the stink..... but in a true mess I could.... I seem to have gobs of hair to spare still at 50.... Mac

Haven't tried wasp's nest for wadding, so I can't say... maybe different wasps? The one I have doesn't catch all that easily- not like dry leaves- but once it catches it burns hot even when it's damp. Sort of like the birchbark, but easier to start.<br><br>Braddock died in Pennsylvania, not far from the current Old National Highway. He was shot, of course, about 9 miles out from Duquesne- now Pittsburgh. I too, have read in books that his grave was never found, but that's apparently nonsense.. they did find his gravesite, based on eyewitnesses to the burial, dug him up and moved him, I think sometime in the 19th Century, so the new grave is right off the highway... it's a ridiculous monument, with, of all things, the Seal of the United States on it. There's a path through the woods behind it that leads to his original gravesite, not far back but in the woods and near the banks of a stream, a much nicer spot. It's only a mile or so from Fort Necessity, and if you're in the area you should take in Ft. Ligonier and Duquesne/Pitt ("The Point", they call it in Pittsburgh) as well. I have done the trip several times. A few decades ago you could have also seen the grave of Tom Fawcett, who shot Braddock, but it's gone now- development.<br>

Prolly time to take this to around the camp fire thread....<br><br>Since Va and Penna have Md in the middle... if you look at your maps and then a Md and find Fredrickstown, and Middletown where state 40 and 17 intersect, head back to fredrick town a little there on the side of the road on a steep hill, you will yet find another monument for Braddock whom it is said is buried under the road. LoL Daniel Boon was born inPa, Tn, and Caintuckaway as well...... Please don't take this as I do not think you are correct...you may very well be. But whats a fact can get mixed up..... Just like you said a bout the USA logo for a Brit... Go figure......... Mac

Wish I knew how to move a thread... or part of it. Maybe we should take this one to private messages- we're pretty far afield of survival at this point.<br><br>As for Braddock's grave... my monument is bigger than your monument. :-)<br><br>Seriously, wasn't there, don't know for sure. There certainly seems to be no doubt to the folks in Pennsylvania. If I remember correctly, Braddock died on the third day after he was shot. Since he was effectively shot in Pittsburgh, and was carried back in a wagon, I would find it surprising that they made it as far South as MD in that time. Would love to see the site, though, and will look for it.<br><br>I know Middletown- spent many a pleasant evening in the Old South Mountain Inn or at Hagan's Tavern. Do you know Billy Ware?

Look low on the page select "Around the Camp Fire" when the screen changes see "Braddock's grave" {sorry Chris} Mac