My Wish Kit

Here's a photo of part of the kit I'd really like. That's a H&K SP89 on the Ontario ASEK knife

mp5 <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Join the Army and your wishes may come true <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I remember right (I'm a dumb civilian) an 0311 is the MOS of a machinegunner

I prefer a FN P90.
Or a SIG.
A decent rifle in the hands of a properly trained individual beats all machinepistolen ever made.

0311 is officially called "rifleman" but weapons used include machineguns.

Now is a PDK really necessary in an EDC or a BOB? What I'm getting at is, is it necessary over a more readily available handgun? I guess I'm trying to understand the situation that would require me to need the PDK.. It's not like I'm some VIP expecting to be assassinated or kidnapped. IMHO, in a bug out scenario, I need something that will allow me to redirect any criminals from me to other unarmed victims/targets so that I can get back to the "fort/armory". Even then, is it necessary as a tool to get something like that? Please note that I am not expecting zombies or aliens to be attacking soon.. Nor do I expect to be involved in a fire fight with the military.. Cause whatever I have, they have more of and better of... I guess what I'm saying is that I have enough ammo and firearms to defend myself against "reasonable" looting and attacks (offer enough resistance so they move to the next home)... Do you really need more? If I were preparing for TEOTWAWKI, I'd dream of just getting a pair of belt fed MGs and go at it until I run out of ammo.. But alas, it is illegal for most US citizens... Just wondering... <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There are numerous firearms I'd rather have in a BOB than a 9mm machine pistol. As a matter of fact, other than a derriger or .25 semi-auto, I can't think of many I wouldn't rather have.

P-90 is also nice

"There are numerous firearms I'd rather have in a BOB than a 9mm machine pistol."

Amen. For me the list starts with a big ol' revolver. But the HK sure is pretty... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The only piece of equipment I am not quite clear on is the one in the middle above the SAK. What is it?

John

it's a AN/PRC-90 survival radio....the newer type of radio would be the AN/PRC-112 survival radio...vince g.11b inf..

During the L.A. riots, the local American-Korean businessmen invited the local looters to take their attentions elsewhere. They were all using chinese made SKS rifles. In a TEOTWAWKI / Riot / Civil Disorder / Breakdown of Civil Authority due to natural disaster situation a pistol is a last ditch weapon. It does not have anything like the stopping (or intimidation value) power of a rifle.
Against a mob, and I assume that you are on your own here, aimed rifle fire is your only chance of preserving life and limb.
Speaking as someone who was trained by the British Army, a mob is simply a bloody big target.

Except perhaps in close quarter combat?

In close I'd still rather have the butt end of a rifle than the butt end of a machine pistol. Not to mention the bayonet on the business end.

I agree wholeheartedly.. The problem with a rifle is that it stands out when carrying it in an urban environment. Shotguns and rifles covered on the homefront. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think the idea was a butt of a rifle or a .45 JHP? <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Right about the rifle, but it won't fit in my Proteus pak (pictured)

If you're going to wish for exotics that are more trouble than they are worth, why not wish for something stunning- I'm rather partial to the M1928 Thompson, myself. While I appreciate the reputation, and acknowledged that it was earned, the MP5 family just doesn't have the same type of class.

Or flamethrowers. Not the best survival weapon as they are kinda hard on game, but in a situtation where you need suppressive fire, why use lead? People are theoretically afraid of bullets but can't see them; people are terrified of the fire breathing dragon they just torqued off, and they can see the stream getting closer.

Although if we were wishing for survival guns, as I said a few weeks ago, a nice break action carbine, 16" barrels, double triggered, .22 over .30-30 or .308, with space for 8 .22s and 5 .30 calibers in the stock, and nice, big dot fibre optic sights with tritum inserts to keep them glowing no matter what.

When I was in the USMC, I had a very nice M16 rifle, selectable for fully automatic or semi. Unfortunately, when I got out, they made me give it back.

I'm sorry, but how do you mean that??

From what I've heared, The Tompson was made during the first world-war as a trench-sweaper. But the war endend before it could be used.
So it became the favourite weapon of the mobsters (nice reputation to have....)
But then WW-2 broke out and it was being used by the Americans in the Pacific.
But eventually it was taken out of production because it rattled and was to expensive. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"A decent rifle in the hands of a properly trained individual beats all machinepistolen ever made. "

Very True!

Nice kit.......
I notice you said "part" of the kit..... A nice scoped.30 cal rifle would be a great addition in a kit, IMHO. Along with a .22 tack driver and a .357 revolver. But those are just my additions for a "all around" kit, for all situations.

Outside of the military, there are very few people who understand how to employ a SMG properly.
With a semiautomatic rifle I can discourage a mob in about 10 seconds by shooting the 10 wannabe's at the front dead. And have change for anyone who wants to object.
(Sorry, us Brit's are the Ruthless Bad Guys. Hollywood has said so. One feel's that one really must live up to one's reputation) <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The tompson has two minor quirks:
1) It's very intolerante of dirty ( fancy way to say that it jam's if there is so much as a speck of dirt in the working parts).
2) It has a very heavy recoil.

A SKS or a AK47 are much better choices. Even in a "legal" semiautomatic 10 round magazine configuration.

The MP5 family has an impecible reputation, and they've earned it. But the Thompson has class- milled steel and hardwood, no stampings, no aluminum, no plastic. The estetic appeal is much greater to me, and I like the bigger bullets better. Another nice thing is that is heavy, which means less felt recoil and less muzzle climb. But then again, I also wish I had a body that would work in a zoot suit.

Oh, and Leigh, the Thompson's reliability is similiar to the M-16 (a much exaggerated issue, stemming from the failure to issue cleaning kits with the first several thousand M-16s and the switch to a very dirty burning powder at the same time) or the FAL (who's lack of reliability you never hear about), and much greater than the SA-80's, which the UK is still issuing for reasons that escape my comprehension.

The Brits have bad PR, that's all.

You've got a guy out here who once had the idea of using miniguns loaded with plastic training ammo for riot work, mounted on vehicles. It's not technically an automatic weapon, but six lever actions operating together, so it doesn't get picky about ammo. And throttled back to a cyclic rate of about 2000rpm, it get's the crowds attention and sends the message that this is not a healthy place to be. Particularly if you are skipping those plastic trainers into thier legs and bellies for ten seconds per gun at that rate.

That, and helicopter down blast. If you can get a bird in there, that will make a big impression.

*tries to look innocent* I wouldn't know this individual personally or anything.

I've heared that the SA-80 is the worst weapon ever. It just keeps blowing up and mag's keep falling out.

I understand that the estetic look of the tompson is appealing to you.
However I prefer the MP-5 for it's ''tactical look'' and because it's used by police and SWAT-teams all over the world.
(I've heared that it will be replaced in America by the M-4 carabine. Pitty really)

From what I've read, the M-4 should do fine in CQB. The 5.56 round is a stopper at close range. The 55 gr round tends to upset and fragment rather than pass cleanly through. That upset and fragmentation causes extreme trauma. The MP-5 is good for a gun shooting a pistol round, but it isn't a rifle.

First off, everything I have every read says the Thompson was and is a nightmare to shoot.

MP5 is used by nearly every special force in the world. It is the No.1 choice for close quarters combat.

The problem with the SA80, was that it was never designed to be used in desert conditions. This has now (Surposedly) been sorted by the new owners H&K. It was a very similar problem to the M16, but no amount of cleaning could fix it.

As for the FAL, if only we could go back in time and make the sensible decision, if the French and the US want to use 5.56, let them.

5.56 round a man stopper at close quarters, have you read or seen Black Hawk Down? I think, I would stick with the FBI loads, in my MP5.

I belive the M4 is coming into use because of criminals using body armor, which would make the 9mm next to useless, unless they train for head shots.

A good friend of mine who was in Vietnam swapped his M16 for a Thompson and used it for his entire tour.

It doesn''t have to be a rifle in CQB, a SMG will be sufficient, unless suspects are wearing body-armour.

I'm sure the M-4 is a good rifle, but I just like the looks and arruracy of the MP-5.

Anyone know how the MP-5 .45 and the MP-5 10mm compare to these??

Everyone I know who carried a Thompson from WWII to Vietnam commented that while it had a hell of a muzzle flash, for stopping at close quarters and controlled automatic fire it was unbeatable. That pegs with just about everything from the law enforcement side of things I've ever read.

Then again, I also know there are people who are scared of the .45. *shrugs* To each thier own.

I'm sorry, when did I say in the post you are replying to that 5.56mm is a man stopper? I don't recall saying that, and I thank you to not put words in my mouth. What I did say can be rephrased as the those who claim the M-16 family is unreliable mechanically are 40 years out of date on thier information and they need to move on with thier lives.

While I do use the .223 cartridge myself for home defense I am also using those ultralight 45 grain soft points that basically disintigrate withing 3" of soft tissue. Nothing like near 100% energy transfere to bring a unpleasant situation to a screeching halt. But with the SS109 projectile, it sucks, no one who isn't a politician denies that. The SS109 was designed to poke holes in armour, and just doesn't work in soft tissue. For that reason, while I like .223/5.56mm for home defense and police work (where expanding ammunition is kosher, and out performs ANY non-prefragmented projectile in the 9mm/.38" class), for military work it needs help.

And the SA80 has had problems in more than just desert. It was just wasn't born right, and even the legendary engineers at H&K can't fix it. And I use that adjective quite intentionally. The cult of H&K is focused to much on the brand name. I like H&Ks, don't get me wrong, but they are not the last word in firearms, no one is. They've produced thier fair share of junk and gone down plenty of blind alleys over the years.

The whole reason why the MP5 was chosen in the 70s by certain units is becuase it was one of the first closed bolt SMGs, which improves accuracy, and it had a great barrel and trigger. To this day, there are few SMGs and PDWs which match it for single shot accuracy. That is critical in certain missions. That reason and pretty much that reason alone is why it was popular. By the time other people got on the ball, with things like the 9mm Colt, the Calicos, the evolved Uzi (Ruger MP-9) and various others, the MP5 had market dominance and maintains it by dint of there being so many of them in service. It was the "firstest with the mostest". 30 years later, there are weapons which are just as good, and some that are even marginally superior in that specific role, but until the MP5s wear out, no one is going to be able to budget to completely replace them. Oh, wait, the MP5s ARE wearing out.

A firearm is a tool, nothing more or less, designed for a particular role and best used in that role. Just like you while you can use a screwdriver as a prybar and as a chisel, don't whine if it does a poor job of either, and after a while doesn't work so well as a screwdriver any more.

Well, other than maybe in some video games, there never has been a .45 caliber MP-5. There might be ripoff of the MP-5 that uses .45, but not from H&K. There was, for a while, a .40 S&W version, which might be what you are thinking of.

And they work well, they just never really got a big market share. Which is a pity, because of all the SMGs made in the past 20 years, I've liked the on-paper potential of the MP-5/10 the best. Full pressure 10mm auto loads put it in the PDW class (and what it could do with sub-caliber pentrators in a light lead alloy bullet or a discarding sabot are VERY interesting), while the lower/FBI pressured loads match the performance of .45 ACP nicely. That versatility is why I love the 10mm cartridge. Nice, big bullets, that can pushed fast or slow as needed, good accuracy, and an ambidexterous safety (or in this case, trigger group) are a winner in my book.

I never heard anything about the .40 S&W version, other than a few law enforcement agencies adopting it in very limited numbers for thier tactical teams.

In terms of accuracy, at room range, the two are very similiar. But once you get out to 100m, there is a big difference. It isn't so much in group size as it is bullet drop. And while you can compensate for this with holding at a different point of aim, that kinda breaks down when the adrenalin is flowing and your buddy is screaming and and bleeding next to you.

And if you want to talk group size, don't try. The MP-5 does good, the mechanical potential of it's barrel, when fired from a machine rest with very good ammunition, is something like 1.5 to 2 minute of angle. The standard, military issue M-4/C-7 does that to, and the very good M-4-type rifles made by folks like Knights, Wilsons, and various other custom and semi-custom makers can beat that. You can get a 1 MOA capable M-4-type rifle for about the same cost as an MP-5 these days. At 10 meters, the difference doesn't mean didly, but at 100m, it can. That gives a good, well barreled M-4-type rifle with a decent trigger and good ammo much greater versatility than the MP-5.

One thing to keep in mind is that with expanding ammunition, 9mm still pentrates literally a dozen to a score of walls. 5.56 does about half of that. Or less, when you are using the super light, speed of thought projectiles I favor. THAT, and better range, not so much the ability to penetrate armour, is why people in law enforcement and hostage rescue are switching over. (The perp in body armour is a statistical fluke, and a nightmare that you use something with some legs against, or you just shoot them in the head. Thier faces are rarely armoured. In the North Hollywood shootout, it wasn't the lack of power on hand. A 12ga slug will beat as much or more armour as 5.56mm in most cases, but it doesn't have the range. LAPD just couldn't get close enough to amount to much until SWAT showed up.)

And yes, things like Glasers and Magsafes prevent overpenetration, but they are so expensive that they are just not feasible for training. And you train with ammunition you will use in the field when you are at that level, beucase there is no save button and there is no do overs. The only people who can justify to expense for these rounds as standard issue are air marshals, for obvious reasons. Also, they have a mixed rep when it comes to mechanical reliability- there are some teams that train specifically for dealing with hazardous enviroments where there are things that you just don't want to shoot who have revolvers specifically for using glaser-type rounds in those situations, becuase there is no failure to feed with a wheelgun.

Jim, don't take this the wrong way, but when I hear people saying they think the MP-5 is pretty, they usually are counterstrike players. You wouldn't by chance be one, are you? Pretty is in the eye of the beholder, which is why I think the Thompson is prettier than the MP-5. But I also say kids these days have no style. :P Nor do thier parents. There as been a distinct lack of classiness on this planet since the early 60s. :P

What about the sound suppression of the MP5SD? <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think they are both pretty in their own right.. The Thompson with the wood accents, while the MP5 has it's "tacti-cool" look. One thing I can comment (having fired both), the Thompson is significantly heavier.. I mean, my guess would be the thompson is twice as heavy! Actually come to think about it, I think the thompson was almost as heavy as a M249!! <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

My guess is that he was referring to the UMP..

I didn't read ever post word for word, so this may have been stated (I know it has been hinted at). As Clint Smith puts it "A handgun is for fun and rifle is for real". A handgun is better than nothing, but its best application in a fight is for fighting to get to a long gun! That being said, a MP5K (or other PDW) would be better than a handgun in a situation where you have no long gun nearby... but only slightly. Pistol caliber ammunition is still pistol caliber ammunition regardless of the length of the barrel it is fired through!
Like Iron and others have said, the HK94 (aka MP5) series of weapons has a well and hard earned reputation. They are reliable, durable, accurate and can be made to be more than silent! The series has had a long lived life as the prominent SMG for LE and military operations in many countries. But even with the various calibers and configurations offered by HK94 series, it is extremely limited by it only being a pistol caliber weapon. This limitation prevents it from being accurate at extended ranges and prevents it from even approaching the terminal ballistics of a good rifle caliber weapon. At 10 yards it doesn’t make much of a difference, but at 25, 50, 100, even 300 yards it does!
I’ll take a M4 configuration of an AR-15 over a pistol caliber carbine any day! Like others have said, the AR-15 series of weapons have a unearned bad reliability reputation. But, for the cost of a MP5 you can get an outstanding top of the line AR-15 and optics. If I am in a situation where it is all about CQB… like my home, then it is a 12g Shotgun all the way. Nothing says “QUIT BEING AN [censored]” quit like 8-9 32cal balls flying at your head at 2000fps!
The MP5 is a great weapon, but I don’t think I’d describe it as pretty… the Thompson maybe. Some 1911s absolutely! But, I’ll stick to my Sig P220 and super ugly M4gery and Remmy 870!

Oh sorry, I ment the .40 S&W version



Nah, no counterstrike. Swat 4 once in a while, but that's about it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I used to carry a FAL or as it is known in the British Army the SLR L1A1. So long as it is properly cleaned and maintained it's very reliable.
Oh and one other point: Any one who is shot with a 7.62mm Nato stays shot. Trust me on this one..... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK on the 0311 being rifleman - can't remember the MOS of a 'gunner. 301? Whatever - like I said - dumb civvie, at least I recognized it as an MOS, eh?

No kidding. :P Why do you think I like .308 for anything at a longer range than my living room?

I was mentioning the FAL alongside the M-16/AR-15 family is becuase once they are dirty, they both have an equal suck value.

Special situation, special application.

And the SD subseries was developed becuase various special customers were finding that the best muzzle cans in the world still opened the groups up too much. H&K has excellent engineers, and an excellent marketing department. They gave the customers what they wanted. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I'm not so much the sneaky. That word can't be used to describe anyone who says "car bombs are subtle".

As I recall, an unloaded Thompson has an loaded (30 round mag) weight similiar to a Garand. Add in the 100 round "C" drum, and the weight should be around 20 pounds or so, so a little lighter than a loaded Minimi. :P But the drums aren't worth it- too noisy, too bulky, too crud sensative, all the problems with the Beta drums. I think I'll stick to straight magazines and belts if needed.

Yikes!, I will never mention any type of machinegun, submachinegun, machine pistol, rifle, pistol, or any other firearm again! The posted pic was not intended to become a long post on only one item. I am actually surprised that our illustrious admin people didn't lock it, after I saw what it had become. And no, I don't know the mos number for machinegunner since I never was one. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Speaking as one who knows a lot about guns in general but relatively little about current military-issue firearms, I found the discussion pretty interesting. Since it remained polite and did not veer into the political, I really see no reason why it would have been locked. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

On the contrary, you should be proud of yourself for starting a topic with over 2000 views and close to 50 responses. Any discussion is educational, whether it stems from the original topic or not.

That said, to get back to the original picture, I have the Maxpedition Proteus, which I bought on a whim to backstop my Jumbo, and find it to be an exceptional bag, better for me in fact than the Jumbo.