My latest outing

Posted by: Boacrow

My latest outing - 08/29/06 05:20 PM

Well, I just got back from a three night excursion into the woods and I gotta say, I didn't enjoy it much. I tried to do the whole gear thing and I was amazingly miserable the whole time. Tents are not for me. Can't stand them. From now on I will be making my own shelter as I have always done. I found almost immediately that tents are not much more than sweat boxes and sand traps. They are also exceedingly noisy. This was my last night in a tent.
I tried to gear up for any possible need. This did not go well. I am not meant for civilized camping. I usually take a pack that mainly consists of food,a knife, some cordage, and that's about it. With that little bit I can handle almost anything. I can make a shelter that beats any tent I've ever seen, make meals, a nice privy, rooms for changing, bridges if need be (ok, I only had to do that once), cook all my meals, and generally just relax and take it easy. This was a nightmare of epic proportions. It was more like a move than a camping trip. Of course I learned some valuable lessons while out this time.
1. Tents are made by Satan
2. Sleeping bags are designed to suck all of the moisture out of the air in order to provide the user with the dampest sleeping experience possible
3. Those water shoes you can get (really cheap) are designed to fall apart upon first time use, and they have the convenience of becoming a cat litter box due to the natural attraction sand has for the insides of them.
4. Rescue is inevitable. There is no reason to fight it. As soon as I get settled in and start enjoying it, someone shows up to spoil it all for me. I now know that if I ever get lost, all I have to do is have some fun and someone will show up in short order to make sure I don't have too much fun. Next time I must remember to bring trip wires
5. During a hard rain, the best place to be is in it. Climbing in a tent ensures a good soaking by letting you roast in your own juices. At least outside there is a chance you can get under a tree and stay somewhat dry.
6. No matter what, one hornet will find out where you are and set up a perimeter. This hornet will man it's post day and night and foil all attempts to relocate it. I've found it's best to let it gaurd the area as killing it only brings reinforcements and they aren't very happy to be called in on their day off.
7. When breaking camp, I started to notice that the gear I brought somehow expanded and multiplied. It seemed to take up much more room on the way out than it occupied on the way in. Also I seemed to have had to make more trips back and forth during the loading up process than I did for the unloading.
during this whole trip, I found myself apprehensively looking over the camp site thinking to myself how much it was going to suck loading it all back up again. I couldn't enjoy the trip as much as I would have liked and I doubt I will be returning to that particular spot. While it is a nice spot, there are no trees handy enough to hang hammoks from, my usual shelter won't work for the same reason, and it seems to have more people wandering aimlessly through it than at a Led Zepplin concert.
Posted by: WalkingSavage

Re: My latest outing - 08/29/06 06:08 PM

My first post. Please be kind.

I have a few gear questions for you. What hammock do you prefer? Is your hammock with or without mosquito netting? Does your hammock have a roof or do you use a separate rain cover(a tarp or the like). What do you usually use to sleep on/in when you cannot use your hammock? How do you keep yourself dry if you have to sleep on the ground in the rain (ground cloth, tarp, sleeping pad)?

I am just curious as you seem like the type of person who really prefers minimal equipment to full gear camping. I too prefer simplicity over too much extra stuff I may not need or ever use.

Thank you,
John
Posted by: thseng

Re: My latest outing - 08/29/06 08:05 PM

It sounds like you were stuck at an established campground. My condolences.

My worst time camping was at a large Boy Scout event at West Point. (We were there because my CAP squadron was also chartered as an Explorer post.) We were forced to camp our allotted 30x30 foot piece of a huge field. Being “military” our tents were set up with precise 2’ spacing between them. Never mind if your assigned spot had a gopher hole in the middle of it. It rained the whole time and the ground was saturated. It was so muddy that if you stood in one spot for too long you’d sink. The grass was trampled on by so many feet that the mud was squeezed up through it from below. It was cold. No fires allowed.

One night I dreamt how I would escape into the woods and build a lean-to with a huge reflector fire in front of it. I would dry off all my clothing and gear. Nice soft dry pine needles under my sleeping bag…

Then I woke up to the crinkle of a space blanket and resumed bailing water out of the floor of my tent with a canteen cup.

My best time camping was probably in a debris hut somewhere. Once, I spent the coldest night of the year in three feet of snow in a snow shelter. I’m sure I would have frozen to death in a tent.

Unfortunately, civilized people frown on your building a survival shelter in the middle of their nice organized campground.

Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/29/06 08:40 PM

I don't really care for a specific type of hammock over any other. I have some from Wal-Mart out of the camping section and they do just fine. I don't use mosquito netting, roof, or tarp, instead I rely on my shelter to do the job. My shelter usually consists of a sloping roof that keeps the rain off but still allows for a nice breeze. I build the shelter in such a way that I can fit all my gear under it and have a central fire that everyone can gather around if the temps drop. I don't sleep on the ground at all. If I can't hang a hammock, I build a bed. It's not really hard to do it, it's just a bit involved. Almost everything I need I can make.
Where I was camping this time wasn't exactly a campground as such. It is private land that someone has put a small fire pit on. The proble is, the people that own it are a bit free with letting people go there. Even if someone is already there! I'm not fond of that. At any rate, as you said, I am a minimalist. I can and have gone camping with nothing more than what I had in my pockets at the time. I like it much better when I don't have to carry a bunch of gear. Sometimes even a BOB is too much. Suffice it to say, my camping experiences are always interesting. Always an adventure.
Posted by: Craig_phx

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 12:05 AM

I have had nothing but good experiences with tents. I use a Thermarest and a good sleeping bag. They are dry and comfortable.

Maybe you need less, but better equipment? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 02:42 AM

I guess I'm just not a tent type guy. I would think in bear country or something like that, a tent is just another way of saying "sack lunch". I prefer to sleep open air as it were. Get a nice breeze blowing through, gently rocking me to sleep. Now that's livin'! Got the fire nearby to keep warm on cold nights too. Plus, it's really hard to hang a hammock in a tent. I can understand the attraction to a tent, but for me, it's just more comfortable swinging to sleep. Especially after sleeping in that crock pot that passes for shelter.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 03:27 AM

I would say that your tent and sleeping bags are either of subpar quality, or something failed on the user end. If quality, properly used equipment failed due to weather, then the primative techniques that people like to chest beat about wouldn't be much good either. Nothing personal.

Although the chest beating might keep you warm.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 03:56 AM

I don't know about the quality of the tent. I know it doesn't measure up to my usual shelters. I also know that it takes almost as long to put up. These things, combined with the fact that I can make a shelter any size I need it to be (so every one is built especially for the situation at hand) makes me think that tents are really not the way to go for me. I'm not saying that people that would rather have gear give up their tents. Quite the contrary in fact. Building a shelter from scratch isn't something that everyone knows how to do. It just happens that it's what I've always used and so I'm good at it. Some people don't have access to either the room, or the materials to build a quality shelter for long term habitation. I happen to have both, plus the knowledge needed to build them. I can have one 20' by 20' (or almost any size for that matter, the frame takes up the most time) up in about an hour, and I can have it as waterproof as it needs to be. I can have adjustable walls in case of rain or cold weather and I can add rooms to it. All in all, I prefer the versatility and comfort of a homemade shelter. Plus, I don't have to carry it out there or bring it back. When I'm done with it, if I don't intend to use it again, I can throw it on the fire. I usually use them again and again though. Mine usually last about a year with minor patching here and there.
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 04:16 AM

This is one of the most amusing posts I've seen in a while.

As long as you don't object to my GPS, Gore-tex, and fancy Marmot gear, I've got no problem with you "I can light a fire by rubbing my beard stubble against a log" kind of guys... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Angel

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 04:36 AM

I have to agree with Boacrow. Some people have to take their whole house with them but I don't see a need when you don't have to. I enjoy camping more when I don't have to spend my time wagging a lot of stuff I don't need and sweltering in a tent, and I don't care what the quality of a tent is, when it's 102 degrees and raining, it's like being in an oven. I dont think of camping without a tent as primitive, it's just natural. And to all those that choose to look down your noses at those of us that prefer to camp naturally then I'm sure Motel 6 will leave the light on for you.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 04:37 AM

I've never objected to anything that anyone does. I simply said it wasn't for me. I carry gear with me from time to time. I own a GPS although I don't know where it is at the moment. As for what brands, I don't know the difference. I also really don't care. I can look at the construction quality of something and tell whether it's going to serve my purpose or not. I don't get sucked into the name brand stuff. I don't carry expensive knives, just ones that work. I don't have a good compass, I can tell direction without one. I don't carry name brand firestarters (unless you count Bic) or any fancy multitool (I've never needed a corkscrew, philips head screwdriver, three inch saw, nail file, ruler, or bottle opener). I buy tools for their functionality, not because someone said I had to get one. I do a lot of my shopping in hardware stores because I know they have quality tools, not because I need a status symbol. In the end, mother nature doesn't care what brand name your gear has on it, she just wants to kill you with whatever she can throw at you. Now people can make fun of me because I am more "primitive" than the rest, but the simple fact is, I can probably do more with less than most of the people here. I can also make it more comfortable, and more survivable. How do I know this? Because I have done it. So far I haven't heard such claims from anyone else. The longest I've heard of so far is two weeks. So the way I see it, I might have something to contribute even though I don't do things the same way. By the way, the last time I was out for more than a couple of months, I gained 20 lbs, and all I had was a small machete and 100' of paracord.
Posted by: Fitzoid

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 04:45 AM

Boacrow and Angel, I think I gave you the wrong impression -- I have no problem with Boacrow's post at all. I enjoyed his sage commentary and agree with most of it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just like my high-tech toys. (And sometimes in the winter, it's fun to snuggle up in a mummy bag.)
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 05:11 AM

I came, I read, I sniggered.

Very witty mate. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: joaquin39

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 02:51 PM

Boacrow:
I like your post. Where are you from and where do you go in your outings?. Also at what time of the year?.
I also agree with you that most of us are armchair survivors in the sense that although we go out hunting, fishing or camping we like to be as prepare as we can so we don't risk our lives if we can help it. Thank you for your post.
Posted by: JIM

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 03:29 PM

Maybe a idea for your next outing: Take your skills and minimal equipment with you.
Then duct-tape one of your arms to your side. Let's see if your skills will help you survive now......
Just curious, is there a primitive one-handed fire starting technique?
Posted by: Micah513

Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/30/06 04:24 PM

Where in the world do you camp at?

What type of materials make the '20 X '20 shelter (roof & walls)?

Does the fire take care of the bugs? If so are you getting up every hour or so to build it back up?

Really am curious & not trying flame you...
Posted by: Craig_phx

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 05:34 PM

Pictures?
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 06:56 PM

I assume the one handed thing is real big on this forum. I keep having people mention it. Actually, I do great one handed. I've done it many times due to many injuries to my hands (I can show you the scars if you like) and I will most likely do it again. Since I'm a smoker, I use the lighter that I carry with me. If that one goes out, I have several more in several different places. If they all fail, a magnifying glas works great. All one handed. In fact, I can stick the glass in the ground and aim it just so and I can do that one no handed. I'm sure that with enough gear, I wouldn't need arms or legs to survive, but to me, survival begins when there is no gear. Until then it's just camping. all of the methods I use have been tried and tested many times by me and I have had to do most of them one handed at one time or another. I am certainly capable. Just out of curiosity, what's the longest you have been out for with full use of both arms? If you like, we could go out sometime and try out our individual methods. You can bring Bob and whatever you can haul in, and I will take my smokes, lighter, knife, and cordage and we can see how we do. I'll even let you tape up one of my arms, your choice. Do you feel confident that you can make it?
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/30/06 07:07 PM

Around here, there is planty of land to set up camp. I use wood to build shelter frames (fallen saplings, limbs, anything handy), then top it with boughs pointed at the ground and layered so that water runs down it, not through it. I just lay the frame in the crooks of trees and start stacking. You can make a shelter any size you want by just adding to the frame. If you want walls, simply slope it all the way to the ground. The woods are full of materials to use. Usually the smoke from the fire takes care of insects pretty well. There are those that do bite though. the fire I make is a relatively slow burning one although I do have to stoke it from time to time. At night I just bank the coals and use them in the morning to get it going again. I don't burn it all night. There's really no need for a fire al night, the coals put out alot of heat by themselves. Nothing to it really.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 07:16 PM

THis is one of Doug Ritters sore points: Too many so called survival kits assume that when TSHTF, you will be uninjured. Which is twaddle, BS and any other pergorative you would care to use. Hence the interest amonst the better informed in equipment that can be used one handed. And that means either handed!
Very few people have your skill level - me included- which makes you a very welcome addition to the group. No one in their right mind wants to be dumped into a situation bare ass naked. Hence the interest in equipment. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 07:29 PM

I appreciate your post Leigh. You make alot of sense. Alot of people just assume that their kit will cover every situation, but the fact is, nature has a way of making up new situations really fast. I have seen things while out that should never happen but they do. I must admit that I have been caught unaware more than once. Often as not, luck will save you when gear won't. That and the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. I have no problem relying on luck when all else fails but when luck runs out as well, I have to think fast. That's one of the things that has helped me develop the skills that I have now. If things go perfect, then you won't learn anything.
Posted by: JIM

Re: My latest outing - 08/30/06 08:03 PM

Quote:
If you like, we could go out sometime and try out our individual methods.


I don't know where you live and if it would be possible, but it sounds like fun.

Please don't take the post as that I think I know it better. I'm just scetching a scenario when something goes wrong on your outing, with next to no equipment. If you're for example immobilised, some techniques may not work, and then you may need equipment to make it easier for you with a injury.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 02:18 AM

And you're going to do that in an hour?

Nothing personal, but I want to see it- you must be moving at a run if you have a 20'x20' shelter up in an hour, and using nothing but natural materials. Unless you have stuff preassembled. And using that technique, I don't see why you complained that the floor of your tent was wet. This won't stop water from running under.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 01:29 PM

You should probably stick to what you know. The first thing you have to realize is that water doesn't run uphill. Using that simple bit of information, I can find a spot that is on a slight rise thus preventing water from running in. It's not that complicated. As far as building the shelter fast goes, that is also a simple proposition. All you need to know is how to tie knots. Of course if you don't know that water doesn't run uphill, you might face the boughs the wrong way and flood the site anyway. The thing to remember is, that to build a shelter that works, you only have to tie four knots. If you can keep the corners of the frame together, you're halfway there. Once you get the four knots tied, assuming you have gotten that far, hoist it up in a tree, assuming you are actually in the woods. The last step, assuming you have made it this far, is to cover it with branches. As long as you point the branches downward, the water will run off. The branches will provide their own structural support so no new knots are needed. If you have problems with this, then a BOB probably won't save you. Maybe you should walk down to the rangers station and have a cup of cocoa. Remember, four knots does not take forever. It's just like tying your shoes twice. How long should that take?
Posted by: Simon

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 03:40 PM

If not a video, we need pictures then. Maybe Les Stroud could learn something from you. Nothing personal, but not everyone can afford financially or even has the time to accept your challenges to people like Jim (in the Netherlands) when you defend your posts.
Posted by: Micah513

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 06:08 PM

--> then top it with boughs <---

Are you talking about Cedar branches?

What continent, country, state are you doing this in?

If it's similar to around here I would like to try this method a couple times.
Posted by: Frozen

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 06:21 PM

I hate to be the first to call troll on Boacrow, but if he is one, he's very good at it. More like fly fishing.

Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 06:52 PM

I live in the south so I try to use pine whenever possible. It's easy to work with. the needles are longer and the sap is sticky so it may play a role as well. I'm not sure where you are but any kind of tree limb will work I suppose.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 07:17 PM

I throught he was poking fun at us gear freaks and making a valid point.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 07:23 PM

Les Stroud is much better with plants than I am but I have watched his show and I am constantly amazed that he survives at all. I watch him sit beside a stream or lake and complain about how hungry he is. If there is any significant amount of water around, there is planty of food to be had. I also remember a pig running him up a tree. Now I've dealt with pigs before. That one was not that big. Judging from cues around the pig, I would say maybe 50lbs tops. It also didn't have tusks. That pig could've easily been dinner. I'm sorry, but I don't think he is all that great. The abilities he has comes straight out of a boy scout manual. I don't know if he does it that way for a dramatic effect or if he really doesn't know any better. I would hope and suspect it's mostly for effect. At any rate, if you spend as much time as I have outdoors and reading as much material as I have, then you learn other ways of doing things. Also it helps to read a little history. Find out how the natives lived. Find out about the pioneers and why they had it so hard when the natives living all around them were thriving with no metal tools, no horses or pack animals of any kind, and they didn't even have wagons (at least they didn't have any of this stuff till the white man started trading with them). I encourage you all to go to the library and read some books on the daily life of the natives. It's truly amazing. I have no problem with gear or anything like that, in fact I've even mentioned that I use gear, but I don't see a need to crucify a guy just because he doesn't have to have it. If worse came to worse and I had no gear at all, I could make do. I have done it. If you don't think it can be done, then I think that survival may not be your strong suit. It may be that cacmping is more in line with what you are wanting to do. The fact of the matter is, if something comes along that's serious enough to make you leave your home for survival, chances are, it's going to be for more than three days. I am prepared for that. If I die in the process so be it, but I think I've got a better than average shot. And I would bet good money I could make it longer than alot of the people replying to this post. I didn't ask anyone to believe anything that is impossible or even outlandish. I simply said that tents weren't for me. If tents are your thing then good for you. It really doesn't matter to me. But if I say I can make a shelter, what's so hard to believe? You watched Les do it more than once. The one he made was a bit more involved than the ones I make since the frame is more elaborate, but I don't doubt that he could make his pretty fast. I certainly hope he can since he usually waits till the sun starts setting to start working on it. I guess all I'm trying to say is, if you don't believe what I say is true, that's fine by me, don't reply unless you can prove that in some way or another what I suggest is dangerous to others. If it's not, leave it alone. Making a shelter is one of the most elementary things you can do. If you don't know how, that's your problem. I promise you this though, I would rather have the knowledge to survive without gear over the gear to survive without knowledge. You have obviously made your choice as well.
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 07:43 PM

I would rather have both. And a 50lb pig is 50lb of pissed off mean. Especially when it knows that it's choices are between victory or baconhood.
As for the Natives, most of them have been doing this from birth. The rest of us are starting somewhat later in life. One interesting point is the alacrity with which Mr Native will trade his chipped flint knife and carved bow & arrows for a steel knife and the white man's smoke pole. Not to mention matches. Something that is badly worrying the Elders amonst the Inuit. Amonst others. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: joaquin39

Re: My latest outing - 08/31/06 09:34 PM

Boacrow:
You went out for more than 2 months and you gain 20#s. Could you give more details about that?. Where did you find the food or did you carry it? Where you camping out of a car or did you carry all the food for 2 months? Or you lived off the land?. It sound very interesting to me. I am serious about it and would like that you illustrate on how you accomplished that. Thanks <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: jamesraykenney

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 08/31/06 11:06 PM

Glad to have you here...
When I think back at all the knowledge that I could have gotten from the older people when I was a kid...
But I was not interested in the outdoors when I was a kid(except for shooting).
I have some OLD camping and survival books, and if I showed them to any of the modern campers, they would probably have a heart attack when they saw that people would cut wood and actually make a raised bed to sleep on. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Some of them are big in the leave-no-trace movement and think that because an archaeologist can find somewhere where a fire was made thousands of years ago, that you should not make a campfire... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> It is sad really... So much knowledge is being lost every year... I am glad that the internet came along when it did, or we would probably loose all of the old knowledge...
Sites like http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/ are keeping the old knowledge alive and even trying to rediscover lost information by doing things like study old tools, like axes and knives to find out WHY they were made like they were...
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 02:23 AM

Leigh, I am in complete agreement with you about trading stone tools for more modern ones. That just makes sense, and it is a fact that that is exactly what happened. It's also exactly what I would do. However, if the need arises due to circumstances beyond my control, I feel better knowing that I have that option to fall back on. I also agree with you about the pig thing up to a point. A lrge pig with tusks is a force to be reckoned with no doubt, but a 50 lb pig isn't that hard to take on. They do put up a fight but they are extremely riid animals with very limited mobility. I have taken on pigs that are around 50 to 75 pounds. One that size is roughly equivalent to a mid size dog. Due to their limited range of motion, I can just fall on their back and pull the front legs down towards the back ones and that's pretty much that. Of course I have spent alot of time learning animal behavior and have found that even the most unpredictable animals give signs as to what they are planning. Shifting weight from one side to another, bowing the head, watching the feet to see which one is planted or dug in, all of these things provide clues as to what they might do. This is not something that I recommend to someone with no experience mind you. I have been dealing with the most deadly animals on the planet for years (right now I have a timber rattlesnake, a southern copperhead, several black widows that I breed, and an African fat-tail scorpion) and I have had to learn animal behavior. I know, I am weird, I get that alot. Anyway, pigs aren't a problem until they get some size on them, then I don't even want to hang one in a snare.
To joaquin, when I went out on that outing, I was having some personal troubles at the time. suffice it to say it was out of necessity that I went on that trip in the first place. When I went I was racked with nervous problems and wasn't eating right. In fact I was underweight. After being in the woods for a week or two and doing some serious soul searching and self reflection, I came to terms with the situation that led me to that point in the first place. This was when I started eating again. It literally saved my life to get away from the distractions and clear my head again. I fed on birds, crayfish, rabbits, dandelion greens, bamboo shoots and other assorted goodies. Trust me on this though, crow is not one of the better birds to eat. Turkey is much better. Pigeon is ok but not much meat on it.
To James, I appreciate where you are coming from. It saddens me also to see the kowledge that once sustained our forefathers drift away on the wind. I agree with you completely. I can also relate to the old books you spoke of. I have read many of them and I think it's a shame that things have changed so much. Some of the best books I have read are the Firefox series that covers alot of the older ways. The books are basically a compendium of stories from mountain folk who still use primitive ways on a daily basis for everything from making soap, to gardening, building log cabins, and a host of other skills. The stories are really great and some of the superstitions are really something to read. The lifestyle is anything but mainstream, but it's also something that's close to me since I grew up with people just like the ones in the stories. I recommend the books to everyone looking for some great entertainment and awesome enlightenment. There is so much to learn in this life and so little time to do it. I wish more people felt the way you do James.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 03:40 AM

First off, boy, if you being on high ground magically keeps you dry, how come your tent was wet? Oh, wait, becuase it doesn't!

Second, it takes more than a few minutes to get the framework of a 20'x20' shelter up, and a lot more than four knots. What you've described sounds like a lean to. Without supporting cross pieces, what youv'e described won't work, so maybe you left out your "secret step". No, it's going to take more than a few minutes to gather your frame poles and ready them. And a lot more than a few minutes to put a skin on it.

I've got to see a picture of this. A 20' wide lean to is such a waste of resources and time, it should be immortalized.

As for using pine, wow... How many pine trees do you strip for this? Pines suck for waterproofing- too skinny, too much space for drips to get through. If you had said ceder or spruce or certain firs, I'd belive you. If you had said you were stripping bark in sheets, I'd belive you, but at least I wouldn't think too much less of you. But PINE BOUGHS! Don't make me laugh.

By the way, I grew up camping in woods, in all seasons. I've been soloing since Regan was in office, and usually without a tent. I've built my own bow, and javelins with atl atl, and thrusting spears. I've made and used fire bows (with and without flywheels), spindles and troughs, and with flint and steel. (Hell, I carry a piece of pyrite and a piece of jasper with me when I'm flying, and list them as "gifts".) I've built lean tos like you're describing, brush shelters, proper long houses, yerts and teepees from the raw materials, and even a hay bale house. I've brain tanned and smoked hides. And I've played the "without even a knife" game before. I know how primative techniques fail- I like something with a lower failure rate.

As for water flowing up hill, let's just say that I probably know more about water than you do. I have watched if flow up hill, pushed by a 60 mile per hour wind gust. And I've watched it soak the ground, wicked uphill by the soil. And if you knew anything at all about lean tos, you'd know that keeping one dry is a bad joke becuase *gasp* the wind shifts. And you'd also know that aren't worth squat except as a break for the prevailing wind, they can't keep you warm. I've built several scores of them.

I can stay warm and dry in pretty much any weather conditions, and I leave no traces behind. You failed with a tent and sleeping bags, something which I would consider so fundamentally basic that if I failed I would consider suicide or at least sterilization. When I go out, I use a tarp (a faster lean to- I need one piece of paracord crosswise, a line in each corner, and four anchors or stakes, in about five minutes if it's blowing and I have to fight with the tarp), a hammock, paracord, and a sleeping bag. I stuff the sleeping bag a bivy bag if it's raining or blowing hard, becuase of wind shifts. I've done that in bone dry weather, driving rain, and blizzards, with winds up to 40mph, and in tempuratures ranging from 100 above to around 0- at zero, I build a snow cave, and usually before. And other than holes in the snow and ashes, you can't tell I was there a month later.

So I AM sticking to what I know. Are you? Becuase you've made some statements that start at outlandish, and range down from there.
Posted by: KI6IW

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 04:26 AM

I have been following this thread with some interest, to see what the reactions of various “regulars” would be. I think that most people here understand that less technological solutions exist in survival and preparedness situations. For example, as I look around the room, I see my utility powered light. If my electrical utility fails, I have a battery-powered flashlight. As the batteries begin to go dead, I have a candle. But do I want to start with a candle and go down the technology ladder from there? Not if I can have other choices. Can I make a candle? Probably, given enough time, materials, and experimentation. And assuming that I have that surplus time, because I am not hunting, gathering, farming, finding water, shelter building, etc.

Following my analogy a bit farther, if you understand how to make a candle with ease, please tell us all about it. We are eager to learn and understand.

Now, directly to the point: A 20 by 20-foot shelter is 400 square feet. That is the size of a studio apartment. What do you do with all of the room, since you have minimal gear to shelter? And if you are skilled at building strong, sturdy, efficient shelters from minimal equipment quickly and easily, please borrow a digital camera and a yardstick from a friend (if you do not already own them), take them to your favorite wilderness area, and take lots of pictures of the process (with the yardstick in the photos, to provide scale). We are here to learn.
Posted by: aloha

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 04:43 AM

Aloha Boacrow,

I am enjoying your posts and would like to hear more stories of your exploits. Maybe a little more details so a tenderfoot like me can learn more from your experiences.

By the way, tell me more about the Firefox series you alluded to. I was unsuccessful in my google search using firefox and book.

Mahalo.
Posted by: Angel

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 04:48 AM

I just happen to have that series of books and they are really worth the read. Here's where you can find them. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search...ag2=over-std-20
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:25 AM

Wow. I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll try to address each point you bring up in turn and hopefully I won't miss anything.
1. High ground not keeping the tent dry
In my first post, I thought that I made it clear that the tent was not wet from the rain. It was muggy, I was sweating, ergo everything I touched got wet. The high ground wasn't a factor in this case, however it has been a factor in the past. Wicking action is minimal at best. That's why after a light rain, you can move a car and it's still dry underneath. Assuming however you are caught in torrential hurricane force weather. There are things you can do. Bank dirt around the site. It doesn't have to be the great wall of China, just a few inches is all it takes. This will slow the flow of water. Also if you keep the area heated, the water evaporates quite readily. Contrary to your implication, water doesn't pour through dirt like it isn't there. Capilary action does take time. Whatever the combination of factors at play, I haven't had a flooded shelter yet.
2.The knot count.
As I have stated before, I basically start with a square frame. When I was very young, I learned what a square was. It is a polygonal shape with four equalateral sides. Now on this point I must be a bit vague as I don't claim that my squares are exactly "square". But I do know they have exactly four corners to them. These have to be tied. These are the only things that have to be tied as I am about to explain. You see, there is a force in nature called gravity. I try to use this force whenever possible to make tasks easier. This is how it works. I take four poles, lash them together at the ends. Takes about ten minutes to do all four. Now I have a frame. That was easy you may say, but now what? Well, now you get it in the tree. For this you will need a tree for each corner that you have tied. Sometimes it may be three, or two or five or whatever. You can use poles to make up the remainder of the missing trees if you like but I can usually find four trees that are roughly positioned correctly. At this point I would like to point out that I only hang one half of the frame in the trees until I get it "shingled". For the hanging process you may need something to stand on. I usually throw a line over a limb and drag it up hooking the frame over a limb. Now that we have half in the trees and half on the ground, we take some large boughs and limbs and whatnot and hang them on the frame using branches that should always be pointing down as hooks. As long as the branches are hanging all in one direction. Remember gravity? This is the time to start using it. Once the branches are in place, hoist the other end of the frame up into the trees and hook them on slightly lower branches than the previous ones. Now you are ready to go. If you haven't done it properly it will leak. If this is a problem just throw more branches up there making sure that they are facing the same direction. You can do this all day if you like but I've found that it doesn't take that long. Now that I've told you how to get a shelter up with only four knots, I will tell you how to put walls on it. Simply lay poles against it on the sides. Remember the gravity thing? Do the same thing as you did to the top except for hanging the other end in a tree. That will just make more roof. It's not pretty but it does work. Oh, and you don't have to use pine either. It's just handy around here. I have also used oak, mimosa, and others as well. Mimosa incidentally doesn't last very long but the poles are usually quite straight.
3.Using pine boughs
This actually works believe it or not. The funny thing is, it works for exactly the same reason you claim keeps the ground wet in a shelter. Capilary action. Now here's a simple test that can show you how this works. Take an ordinary piece of string and hold it under a small stream of water. Hold it horizontally but tip it slowly to the vertical plane. You will see as to tilt the string that the water will tend to follow it. It's the same with pine needles. they carry the water right off the side that's the lowest. As for the density of the needles, you obviously aren't familliar with pine. They are very dense. and even if you somehow come to a forest filled with pines that look like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree, then you just use more of them. So far it hasn't been an issue for me.
4. Your prowess.
If you have built several scores of lean-to's and still can't get it right, color me unimpressed. Personally, if I can't get it to work within two or three tries, I move on to something else. I don't keep doing it. You know, the whole doing the same thing expecting different results concept.
5.Staying warm and dry.
I have no problem there. I live in a climate that is quite pleasant so barring a major climate shift, I don't have to build snow huts or igloos. I know how, I just don't have to. About the coldest we get down here is maybe in the teens and I camp in that with no problem. Oh and we don't lose snowmobiles in lakes here either. Our lakes are liquid and we can remember where we left them. Someone mentioned that to me awhile back although I don't remember who.
6.Leaving no trace.
I'm not quite sure I know why this is important. I must confess that I've used fire pits for quite some time and never destroyed not one single forest. In fact they are all still there. I do know that I have gone back to a place that I've camped at a few months later, and there was a nice fresh coat of leaves over everything. I couldn't see the fire pit anymore, but I knew it was there. How exactly does leaving no trace help? As far as I can tell, leaving no footprints only satisfies the aesthetic principles of the person that camped there. No one has ever complained about my fire pits except the few people on here who have never seen my fire pits. I'm not sure how a fire pit does so much damage long after I'm gone, but I'm sure there are statistics. If you have them handy I would love to read them over sometime. I love statistics. Oh and as for my shelters, if I'm not coming back, it's the last thing on the fire. If I am coming back, I don't care who sees it. They shouldn't be there anyway, it's private land.
So I hope I addressed all your concerns. If not, I am sure I will hear about it. I would think being the outdoorsman that you are, msot of this stuff would be insanely simple to you. Guess it's a little different where you come from.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:38 AM

Good point KI6IW. I also quite liked the analogy by the way. Actually, I am planning on going out soon and making a shelter for he express purpose of taking photos of it. Hopefully this will satisfy people, however I don't think it will. I'm sure it will satisfy some, but there will be the naysayers claiming photoshop or some other such nonsense. I'm going to do it anyway. At least people will be able to see what I use for shelter. Whether they believe it or not after the photos, I just don't care anymore. There is no satisfying some people. Just for the record, I do use technology. I know how to survive under the most primitive of conditions, but when I camp, I like to bring fear with me.I do "rough it" from time to time just to keep in practice, but for the most part, I carry equipment with me. You sound like one of the more intelligent people I've interacted with here so I know you understand that I mean no disrespect, I'm simply trying to state my case.
Posted by: jamesraykenney

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:41 AM

Quote:
Aloha Boacrow,

I am enjoying your posts and would like to hear more stories of your exploits. Maybe a little more details so a tenderfoot like me can learn more from your experiences.

By the way, tell me more about the Firefox series you alluded to. I was unsuccessful in my google search using firefox and book.

Mahalo.


A tiny transposition error was made in his post.
He was talking about the Foxfire books, not Firefox...
I did not notice the error myself until I tried to find a link for you...
Look at http://www.foxfire.org/ .
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:45 AM

My bad, I always get that backwards. Sorry about the confusion
Posted by: jamesraykenney

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:52 AM

Quote:
<snip>
5.Staying warm and dry.
I have no problem there. I live in a climate that is quite pleasant so barring a major climate shift, I don't have to build snow huts or igloos. I know how, I just don't have to. About the coldest we get down here is maybe in the teens and I camp in that with no problem. Oh and we don't lose snowmobiles in lakes here either. Our lakes are liquid and we can remember where we left them. Someone mentioned that to me awhile back although I don't remember who.
<snip>


<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />ROTFLMAO <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You would not happen to live in Texas would you?
Sounds an awful lot like my area...
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 05:56 AM

I lived in Texas for awhile but now I live in Alabama. We have a really mild climate here.
Posted by: aloha

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 06:29 AM

Mahalo everyone.

I don't know about anyone else, but I am enjoying reading this post (and all the others too, of course).
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/01/06 06:49 AM

Well Boacrow, you make plenty of good points both on the merits of minimalistic survival skills and property owner rights. That said, I do have a few sticking points I'd like to address. The first is about your comment that the Indians were doing fine while the poineers were suffering and starving in the same area. First, the Indians were living in tribes and familiar with the territory and it's characteristics. Often times the pioneers were living in small family units of fewer then ten people with miles between neighbors. The pioneers were also living in unfamiliar country, and there were no edible plant books or internet to help them out. One of the harshest if not the harshest punishment for an Indian was banishment from the tribe. A Indian without a tribe was as good as a European doing the sundown shadow dance (I just love that euphemism for hanging), dead. Second point on the Indian culture is that, using population as a measuring stick, Indians were far less successful then their European counterparts. When Europeans first arrived the total population of the US area of North America was at most a couple million people (i don't have exact numbers off the top of my head). By the Civil War the European decended population was approximately 29 million (twenty in the Union and nine in the Confederacy).

As for the efficacy of your techniques, I cannot and will not comment citing both a lack of experiance on my part and a lack of observation of your specific techniques. I will say that flint knapping , debris huts, and friction fire are excellent skills to learn and to practice (see my signature) , if only because of the calming effect that knowledge has in an emergency. On the other hand, given an extreme long-term survival situation, I will tend towards a garden with squash plants, corn and beans; a small forge, and a sod house.
Finally, if you want another "primative" group to study. Look up Skara Brae. It's a village about 5000 years old on the Orkney islands in Scotland. About 50 -100 people lived and thrived in the very harsh environment of the North Sea. The trick, as with all long term survival, was the tribe/village which acted as a vessel for accumulated knowledge and cooperation.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 03:25 AM

You're right, we come from very different places. Where I come from, the air can kill you in winter. And our soil is low clay, high organic matter, it's basically a sponge until it is supersaturated.

Without intending to throw stones, anyone can stay alive at 50 degrees unless they are unlucky (ie, eaten, struck by lightening, tree limb falls off and hits you in the head) or stupid (ie, cleaning game in camp, eating poison ivy, petting a rattlesnake). That's why I snickered at your comment about Les Stroud saying he was hungry- you've obviously never seen a beaver pond after the beavers have moved on, at 40 degrees- not much life in it that isn't dug half a foot into the mud. (Good luck finding it.)

You're right, I want to see this 20'x20' lean to of yours. And when you take pictures, I will take them at face value. But I want to see it. And for one reason- I don't doubt that it can be built, but I don't believe the "few minutes" claim, becuase I've built that type of shelter and it takes longer than that if you factor in your time to gather materials. I agree it takes only a few minutes to put up the major frames, but the cross pieces and the roof, I've got to see this. I also question the point of a leanto that big, unless you are using it to store, say, firewood and lots of it.

The reason why I have a hard time beliving your claim that you use pines is mostly based on your time factor. Pines, at least every kind I've ever met, has long skinny needles that cluster on the end of the branch. Sure, enough of it would make a waterproof roof, but there are so much better options that don't require as much time, effort, or materials- even grass bundles work better. Maybe "pine" is a generic term for all conifers in your usage, much like "coke" can be a generic term for all carbonated soft drinks south of the Mason-Dixon line. If you had said you were using spruce or fir or even tammarac, I could see it. If I see a picture of what you are using, I may grant you the quality of being ignorant (a correctable character flaw) rather than a con.

Oh, and FYI, I've spent an entire summer in high school living as you are proposing. My first mentor spent time on Mindano, in Tailand, and in Liberia, living and working with the indigenous peoples (who were mostly iron age cultures then), and those techniques are what he taught me (all REALLY rainy places). My second mentor was an archeologist and anthropologist specializing in the nations of the Iriquois Conferederacy and it's technology, along with the first whites to settle in thier territory (which I live in and am decended from). Those are the techniques I used that summer, and every other time. And guess what, in a hostile climate, the roof leaks- thatch, sod, anything but skins gets issues with a driving rain. But maybe you don't have driving rain.

As for your humidity, I didn't see that in your post. If it was in the initial one, I owe you a partial apology becuase that has been part of my questioning, but I have to ask- if was that hot and humid, why were you using a sleeping bag? Put out your pad, and sleep on top of it, and keep your bag well away from you. And if you are having condensation issues in a tent due to humidity, open the vents. It really is that easy- no small part of why I've been so incredulous is a tent is basically a lean to with two leans, and if you can make a lean to drip proof, then you should have applied the same principles of ventilation to your tent.

As for why I try to leave few traces, there's a lot of reasons. First and foremost, I see myself, as a land holder, as the temporary steward of the land. The land isn't going to end when I die, I hold it in trust for other residents of the land, current and future. That, and if I use too much of a resource in practice, when the stuff hits the fan, it won't be there when it is needed- renewable and short term are not the same thing. But I can already see you may already be beyond understanding the ethical and long term survival issues associated with stripping the limbs off the number of pines that would be required to make what you have proposed work.

Part of the reason I am dubious of long term living with primative techniques has to do witht he points AROTC aluded to- you are trying to use the techniques of cultures that had nearly 100% mortality by 40. The biggest issue after illness was exposure. No one lived in lean tos except on a temporary basis, due to the open sides. But then again, maybe your climate doesn't have exposure as an issue, although if you don't, I'm baffeled as to where you are getting your pine boughs, or anything else.

But the biggest reason I've taken acception to you, is your questioning of my knowledge of the natural enviroment, and science in general. I'm one of those annoying genius type people who tutored various maths (including geometery, so I know what a square is, boy), enviromental science, physics and chemistry while working on my engineering degree. On top of spending every summer until my sophmore year of high school outside, although every vacation until I graduated college was pretty much a sans-house experince. I sorta know a lot about the natural world, both the theories and the practices, along with the world of man.

That's why I say, color me unimpressed, you couldn't stay dry in a tent- it isn't rocket science. This equipment is designed to be as idiot proof as possible if it is quality, and only an idiot would try to use trash gear.
Posted by: bmisf

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 03:51 AM

Well put, Ironraven.

I would not be shocked if boacrow does what he says, but I fall on your side of the philosophical, ethical, and practical divides...

(I grew up camping in the Adirondacks, and now camp extensively throughout California, especially in Winter; I can and have built natural shelters including lean-tos, snow caves, quinzees; I can start a fire all kinds of ways; but I have to say I like camping in bivy sacks and tents (which keep me comfy and dry with proper siting and technique), and leaving no trace...)
Posted by: massacre

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 04:09 AM

Iron, I believe you mean "exception." <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

**Massacre dons flame proof suit after reading and laughing at this exchange**

It's too bad this got personal. Anyway, if you guys want to keep up the public pissing match, feel free - I like the entertainment - otherwise, boarcrow, I think you are either going to need to prove your point with pics or video or let this whole thing drop. I figured I would throw in my two cents before CK slams this one shut. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 04:38 AM

You obviously have a problem with me Ironraven. I don't think anything I could do would change the way you see me, or the way you behave on this forum. I had decided to go ahead and build the shelter, take pics and post them here, but that won't stop the personal attacks, and the rude behavior that I have been subjected to. Instead I have decided that I will build the shelter, and take pics, but they will only be sent to those people on here who have remained respectful. You can get them from someone else. I don't know why I'm going to do this to be honest since obviously the only people who think it can be done are the people who have actually seen me do it. Why this is such a big deal I will never know. I do know however that I am quite tired of the personal attacks, so if you don't mind, please tone it down a bit. I don't mind having rational conversation, but you go a bit too far. If I am out of line here, please say so, but I don't think my request is unreasonable. If you don't believe I can do it, that's fine, wait for me to provide proof.I would ask everyone to give me that courtesy and I would have no problem at all extending the same courtesy to them. Personally, I don't buy alot of your claims, but true or not, it's not worth starting a fight over. I would like to know everyones opinion on this. Am I being too unreasonable? Am I offending anyone? Have I caused undue hardship on anyone?If so please tell me so that I can remedy the situation and make ammends. Maybe I can do it and maybe I can't. Is all of this really necesary to find out? Couldn't you just ask me how, and maybe ask for some pictures so you can better understand what I am talking about? If I can do it, wouldn't you like to know how? Do you honestly think that I really want to take time to teach someone something if they have disrespected me from the very begining? If I can't do it, then so be it, but what if I can? Do you expect me to believe that the abuse will stop if I do it? Why don't you prove to me that you can be a respectful adult? And the old "you have to earn respect" thing doesn't fly with me. My original post was in no way disrespectful to you or anyone else. Sure I lost my temper when you started slinging mud and I appologize for that. I will do my very best to not let it happen again. All I ask in return is that, until I do something to deserve the disrepect you are giving me, please try to be respectful in your posts. If you feel that this is not a fair solution, then I am truly saddened. If anyone else here feels like I have disrespected this forum, or any of it's members, please let me know. If what I am proposing here is unfair, or in any way unreasonable, please let me know. I appologize for ever getting this started. For the most part it has wasted everyones time, and nothing has been gained from it. In the future I will be more mindful of what I say and how I say it.
Posted by: Angel

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 05:01 AM

I for one have no problem with you Boacrow. I know it's hard to talk with someone that thinks they are a genius and knows everything as ironraven claims. Claims, I might add are a little hard to believe. I've seen no proof of anything ironraven claims. Bad manners does not a genius make. An overinflated ego is an ugly thing, ironraven , maybe you should take it down a few PSI. I look forward to your pictures as I have no doubt that your claims are possible. I have seen it done.
Posted by: bmisf

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 05:19 AM

And, boacrow - I'd welcome your pictures should you post them. I'm sure I'd learn something.

I'd even take you up on your challenge (as long as we left the cigs behind ;-)

Cheers.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 05:33 AM

I'd love to leave them behind but I must admit that would be a bad thing for me to do. That is one of the few crutches I have and I am not the most friendly of people without them. Although if you know of something that can help me quit I would be very grateful. It would have to work really well though
Posted by: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 06:15 AM

My Grandfather smoked from when he was 15 to when he retired at 65. Looked at the size of his pension, looked at the cost of a packet of fags. Quit cold.
One of my colleges discovered the hard way that he had a choice: Quite smoking or die.
They can do it, you can do it.
To misquote Nitcheze ( I think I spelt that right) Ubermersh conquer them selves, Untermersh don't.
Posted by: aloha

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 07:27 AM

My dad, like Leigh's grandfather, smoked from his teens until he retired at age 65. I think the secret is my mom would let him smoke in the house so he quit cold turkey!

Boacrow, if you are married, have your wife nag you to quit, to not smoke around her, to not smoke inor around the house and you will probably quit smoking or the wife. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I would love to see your pictures and/or video. I am here to get ideas and learn stuff. And maybe add a little, if I can, to the mix. I think I am a pretty smart guy too, but never too proud to learn something new. Like I tell me kids, EVERYONE has something to teach. It is up to us to learn.
Posted by: aloha

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/02/06 07:28 AM

By the way, I am not sure about you guys, but somehow, this posting has gone into widescreen mode where I not only have to scroll up and down but left and right too.
Posted by: massacre

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 12:43 AM

Yeah, that's a royal pain. Angel posted a long link and didn't encapsulate in UBB. The parser shows it as one long string, unfortunately. I doubt it can be edited this long since the post by anyone other than a moderator, but it sure is maddening. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: picard120

Re: My latest outing - 09/03/06 05:33 AM

I found boatcrow posting fascinating. You mention of being wet in shelter and tent. Your tent probably didn't have an awning.
what type of tent and brand did you use?
What brand and type of sleeping bag did you use?
I always use synthetic mummy type bag rated at colder temperature for extra protection.
Watershoes aren't suitable for camping. They are strictly use for the beach. You should have worn sturdy leather hiking boots. I wear full grain leather boots. I use professional North Face 2 person mountaineering tent. I got it on sale for 300 bucks. The normal price was $500 canadian squid.
Whenever I select equipments, I don't skimp on critical items such as sleeping bag, tents, stove. I bought most of my gear from Mountain Equipment Coop in Canada. The coop makes the latest and best equipments at reasonable price compare to other US brand names.
I always laid out my stuff on the floor before packing. I pack critical items such as knifes, food, and stoves on toop of packpack.
A tent is essential item for wilderness outing. A hiker can reduce the threat of bear entering camp by cleaning his utensils & cookware, clothes before nightfall. I went on canoe trip once which everyone ate fish for dinner. We clean all utensils with bleach & soap throughly to ensure no fish odour sticking to cookware. all the clothes on our back were put in bag because they had fishy smell. We put 2 bags to seal out the odour. The camp fireground was cleansed of fish parts. We never had a bear wandering into the area. Bear can smell fish odour within 2-3miles of campground.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: My latest outing - 09/03/06 06:10 AM

The quality of gear wasn't the problem. It was the humidity that was killing me. I wasn't bundled up in a sleeping bag, I was laying on top of it as a sleep pad.
The tent didn't leak, the rain fly functioned exactly as intended, there just wasn't enough ventilation. It was a sweatbox. The shoes I had on I was wearing in a creek while panning for gold. I wasn't clear on that I know. My bad. outside of the creek I either go barefoot, or wear boots or shoes whichever one is more appropriate. As far as bears go, we don't have very many around here. We do have a few but probably fewer than 2% of the population will ever see one or even see signs of them. They are truly rare here. In fact, they are so rare, I only know of a couple of people who even believe they live here and even they have never actually seen one. Even so, I did carry a .44 with me although it's mostly for plinking. I don't like to kill if I don't have to. I do like to target shoot though. Actually the biggest predator we have here that we are likely to see is a bobcat. They are so shy around here that very few people see them either. They are in abundance though. We also have racoons (which I livee trap and relocate on a regular basis) and that is where the biggest problem comes in. They are just curious and will rummage through anything. I've always put stuff up though so it's never been a problem. The biggest thing that worries me oddly enough is deer. I have had several of them walk up to me when I was obscurred by bush or something. That's something I do not want to tangle with. Most of the other stuff I can handle to some extent. I have handled dangerous animals for a long time but the biggest I have had to mess with is like rotweillers or pythons. A deer is much bigger (than the dogs anyway) and his head is covered with points! One of those could easily get the upper hand on me especially since I don't have any experience handling live ones. Animal attack is still low on my list of priorities though since contact is minimal. Snakes, scorpions, spiders, none of those bother me. I'm more likely to get bit at home in my own bedroom than I am in the woods. The biggest thing I worry about is heat and cold. The rest I can take care of with no problem at all. Temps are only a mild annoyance though. As I said, we have a really mild climate here so if it gets too cold I light a fire and if it gets too hot I jump in the creek, lake or river. It's really easy to camp here. Very friendly environment. The thing with the tent bugged me because it had cooled off enough to make the creek uncomfortably cold, but the tent was unbearably hot. The only option was to sweat it out or open the flaps and flood the tent.
Posted by: jamesraykenney

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 07:25 AM

I for one would love to see the pictures...
Posted by: LED

Re: My latest outing - 09/03/06 07:34 AM

thats one of the worst feelings ever, a hot, humid tent. the only thing worse is to add an ungodly number of hungry mosquitoes inside and outside the tent with no wind whatsoever and no insect repellent. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> the only places i'll camp now in lower elevations in the summer are next to a river and right on the beach (with a nice ocean breeze). but preferably i like to stay above 7000' where its usually guaranteed to get comfortable at night. it doesn't get much worse than trying to sleep in an unventilated tent laying on top of a synthetic sleeping bag. well, add rain, a dangerous thunderstorm, a tornado warning, and mosquitoes, and i guess it could get worse. now that was a night i'll never forget. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: ducktapeguy

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 09:58 AM

I think Ironraven and Frozen identified it right , I call BS on this whole thread. Another troll 13 year old kid reading too many online survival manuals. Most of his story doens't make any sense. I'm willing to bet we'll never see real pictures of this so-called "shelter" he built. Hey, boatcrow, make sure to hold up the .44 that you use for "plinking" standing next to this one-hour wilderness mansion, so we know you didn't just grab a picture off the net. Until we actually see pictures, I don't think anyone here believes you.

Posted by: JIM

Take it easy, people - 09/03/06 10:00 AM

Here we go again........... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ducttapeguy, others,

I know Boacrow claims to have done some.........special things. Some people say that they don't believe him.

The logical reaction should be that Boacrow posts some photo's of his experiences and outings to prove it.

I think that would be the best thing to do for us and him.
Until then, I give him the benifit of the doubt.

Jim
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 02:18 PM

I see that Ironraven has a fan club. That's sweet although slightly disturbing. I have stated before that as soon as I get a chance to get to somewhere, I am going to get some pics. Although as I said, I doubt very seriously that anyone will take it seriously. After I post the pics though, I really am not interested in hearing anymore about it, so keep the comments to yourself after that. I don't care if you believe it or not once I post the pics. I am only doing it because some of the people on this forum respectfully requested it and I think those few people might appreciate it. My suggestion would be, if you are not trying to learn or teach anything, stay out of the way of the people who are. I myself concede that there are probably many methods of doing things that I could improve on and that is why I am here. Unfortunately there are those on this board who would like to stand in the way of that. Why can't you people just be patient? I will eventually get around to getting the pics up here. Seriously, it's like talking to a bunch of kids. Are you going to try to get my lunch money next? Grow up and learn that you get alot further if you treat people with respect and give them every opportunity to prove themselves. I would really appreciate it if you could refrain from posting if you can't be adult about it. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?I would like to hear them.
Posted by: Angel

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 02:30 PM

Why be so disrespectful and rude? I believe Boacrow, I know his claims are possible. He said he would build a shelter and send pics to those that treat him with respect. As far as the gun goes, what's so hard to believe about that? I have several guns, in fact I don't even know anyone that doesn't have a gun. I think some people just live to cause trouble. If you are unable to understand his posts, maybe you are at fault there and not him. I found his posts very clear. Due to your rudeness and arrogance, I'd come closer to believing that you are 13 and I don't even need pics for that. Are you here to learn or are you like ironraven in that you think you already know everything? I don't need you to tell me what's possible and what's not.
Posted by: JIM

Take it easy people! - 09/03/06 02:39 PM

Shaking his head.......... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm not surprised if we're going to have a little visit from our friend Chris......
Everybody......grow up! You're all acting like little children right now! (written by a 16-year old <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

And that's the last thing I'm saying about this.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Take it easy people! - 09/03/06 02:43 PM

I think that's a good idea. I think the mod should step in and lock this post. This is ridiculous. I am not asking for much, just a little respect. I'm getting tired of this. I'll post the pics on another thread later.
Posted by: Simon

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 03:07 PM

I can see both sides of the story here:

IMHO, the posts have not always been clear and concise and Boacrow has pretty much admitted to that. I asked for pictures because some of the claims he made were "unusual." He wants to vindicate himself with pictures, and I respectfully give him the opportunity to do so.

Boacrow came onto the forum with an entirely different approach than anybody I have ever seen. He came on a forum meant to discuss "being equipped" with the attitude that he doesn't need the equipment, nature can provide it. Well that seems to have ruffled some feathers from all angles.

When chastising those who are calling "troll," remember something: Until lately, Boacrow took personal offense when just about ANYBODY questioned his methods until he realized that not all were "out to get him." I, for one, if possible, would like to learn from him.

To believe just what anybody claims on cyberspace is just outright foolish. I thought the forum might have a true bushman when Boacrow first came on and made his first post. I hope he really is. What we have on this thread now is words on a screen. Until I see pictures or a video, I fairly and respectfully give the benefit of the doubt.




Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/03/06 03:27 PM

Thanks for the post Simon. While I don't see myself as a bushman I have survived long periods of time with no gear. I do carrry gear with me when I go most of the time, and the last time I went crazy with gear. I took a fully stocked kitchen unit (Cabelas), several folding chairs, prospecting equipment, enough food to last for months, tent, sleeping bag, two air mattresses (in case one got punctured), air pump (great for getting the fire going), several changes of clothes, camp grill, radio, psitol (I'm a blackpowder fan myself), pellet gun, lantern, and lots of little odds and ends. It fairly well filled up my truck. That was a first for me but I just wanted to play. I usually have a kit that mimics alot of the ones I see on here. I don't always have to use it, but it's nice to know I have it with me. Actually, I'm pleased that some people are willing to learn as well as teach. Like I said, there are probably hundreds of ways I can do things in a better way than I have and I would love to learn them all. I think with the attitude that you have Simon, I could learn alot. I also do like some of the gear that I see on this forum from time to time. I didn't know there were so many products out there and I'm glad to see that I can come here to see how these products measure up. That's a big problem I have with ordering online. I never know if what I'm looking at is worth a crap or not. Now I have a place to find out. By the way, the Cabelas camp kitchen, well worth the money for casual camping where weight and space aren't a consideration. check into it. $139 and it is great!
Posted by: norad45

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 02:50 AM

I have avoided commenting on this thread until now, but this line got my attention:

"...I have survived long periods of time with no gear. "

After you tell us what you mean by "long", and after you tell us what the climate was, please advise how--without gear-- you made fire, how you made a cutting implement, how you made clothing, what medicines and bandages you cobbled together, what you ate, and how you purified your water. Thanks.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 04:23 AM

I was willing to give him the benefit of different enviroment and plants, until he made the 20'x20' in a few minutes claim, and stuck to the claim he'd made a leak proof leanto. A leanto is basically a roof at an angle, and maybe two side walls- that can not be leak proof, you have most or all of one side open.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 04:59 AM

As I said in another post, I was willing to grant that you might have different plants to work with and a rather forgiving climate. But the claim to use pine boughs for the roof of a 20'x20' structure in, to use your words, "a few minutes" is too much for me to swallow, even if you have your materials precut.

I will point out that I'm using a rather conventional usage of the term "a few minutes": rarely more than ten minutes, and certainly not more than twenty.

What you have described sounds like a lean to. Perhaps it was described poorly, but the semi-open nature of a lean to makes it rather difficult to make water and wind resistant. I am always able to admit that I was in error- but you'll have to show me how the trick works first. And I know that I'm not the only one here who is of a like mind.

I will grant that if you preassemble the frame, thatch it, and then start counting while you hoist it, that this IS feasible in a few minutes. That's like saying it takes ten minutes to make a pie- sure, if you buy one frozen, but that totally ignores everything that was done before that.

Without evidence, that is the only way that your claim of a leakproof lean to that is 20' on a side can be raised in a few minutes can be viable. And if you are unwilling to provide public evidence for a publicly made claim....
Posted by: ironraven

I never made that claim. - 09/04/06 05:33 AM

Angel, I've never said I know everything. There are a great many things I don't know, and I've admited when I was in error here. If Boacrow will provide evidence of the capabilites of his shelter, and construction time (photographs with timestamps will be accepted unless blatently doctored to the naked eye), I will be willing to "eat crow". (If you'll pardon the pun) But without it, it is just another rather wild claim made by someone unwilling to share evidence.

I would say that my knowledge base is different from many people's for one large reason- I started learning the sciences, survival and world affairs while most people were learning those strange jump rope rituals, gossiping about movie and rock stars and study the statistics of one form of sports or another. I made a choice to not waste my time with things that provided no useful skill or insight into the functioning of the world.

And in a way, yes, I am at times curious as to what it would have been like to a "normal kid", usually around Thanksgiving. Five minutes in a store around the middle of December will take care of my curiosity for another fifty weeks. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: LED

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 05:40 AM

with car camping and very short distance backpacking, gear selection (and weight) isn't really all that important. especially if its cheap enough you can usually buy two (like with your air matresses) just in case one fails. however, when you really want to put in some miles and get out into the backcountry (with no re-supply like on the appalachian trail) then the right gear becomes very important. especially if you want to carry as little as possible. trust me, the more miles you hike the more stuff you regret taking. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> but thats only if you're going out in the backcountry. it takes the most planning and figuring out what gear you'll take, but it well worth the effort when you know you're miles away from the nearest road. then again, sometimes when you just wanna be in the woods without all the planning, car/truck camping is just the way to go. so its really not a necesseity to have the greatest gear unless you really need it.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 06:39 AM

I guess I didn't describe my situation very well. By "long periods of time" I mean two months or more. Fire was easy since I am a smoker. I carry a lighter with me for that reason alone. Cutting implement wasn't hard either, I have used broken glass (which is abundance in most places), a pocket knfe that I carry for utility work, or even rocks that can work in a pinch and if you don't mind it taking awhile. For the larger stuff, such as poles for shelter, I have piled coals around the base of a small tree until it eventually burned through or I just bent them till they broke. I could. Medicine wasn't an issue since I ususally don't take it even when I am at home, and bandages I have made from parts of a shirt that I ripped off. Also I didn't purify the water. In fact, I never have used a purifier. never even owned one or known anyone that's owned one. Around here that's just never come up. Clothing I didn't make, I just washed the ones I had in a stream. I did find out early on that rocks not only clean clothes ok, they also make them wear out pretty fast, so I just wash them as best I can in the water. Food wasn't a problem. Around here food is everywhere. Rabbits can be taken by deadfall, so can raccoons, possums, and other small scavengers, birds are pretty much everywhere, although I have never trapped one that I remember, beaver, deer, turtles (one of the most abundant around here, and easiest to catch), frogs, fish, snakes, and crayfish. Crayfish are usually the first thing I hunt for since they are probably the most abundant and also very easy to catch. It does take alot of them to make a meal, but they are good. I have had to eat them raw and on those times, I got really small ones. The thought of eating them raw really doesn't appeal to me and the smaller ones are easier to force down. They also make good bait for certain animals such as fish and raccoons. I must admit, alot of the times I relied on items that I found to help me out. Where I used to go was about a mile downstream from a hydroelectric plant (read as dam) and there is no shortage of discarded fishing line, hooks, weights, and things that wash up from boats that have been crushed on the rocks. Once my dad took me to a spot where we found parts of three different boats washed up in the same spot. I found a tacklebox full of gear, although most of it was rusted beyond use, there were a few things I salvaged including quite a nice little fillet knife. If one looks around, usually they can find all kinds of things to make it a little easier. At least in an area that's heavily populated by fisherman.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 07:08 AM

Try as I might, I couldn't find where I said that I could do it in "a few minutes". I concede the fact that I might have overlooked it, but the only reference I could find to time spent building shelter is in one of my earlier posts where I did mention that I could do it in about an hour. That is plus or minus a few minutes of course, depending on how far I have to drag stuff, but still I stand by it. That is for a basic shelter with just a roof. I can add walls to it to make it wind and water resistant but that of course would take a little longer. Also as far as pine boughs goes, I did mention that I have used other materials as well. It just happens that pine is the most abundant. As far as the photos go, since my camera doesn't have a time stamp, what would be sufficient proof of time? Or would there even be sufficient proof? Somehow I think that no matter what I do, it won't be enough to satisfy you. You'll probably cry foul no matter what. One other thing, I will only be able to take a pic of the before and the after if I am going to be able to do it all in the time allowed. If I have to stop every few minutes to take pics, it will take substantially longer. Anyway, as soon as I get a chance to get out to somewhere I can actually do it, I will post the pics.
Posted by: ducktapeguy

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 10:03 AM

Sorry, I'm not a part of any fanclub here. I don't know ironraven from boacrow, but I do have to say that one of them seems much more knowledgable, and seems to have real life experience that I would tend to believe, while the other seems to be living in a internet world.

I'm not saying this stuff can't be done, because many people have done it, but there are too many inconsistencies in boacrows post to make me believe he's actually done it himself. It sounds like someone who's read all the survival terminology and methods from the internet, but has never tried it out for himself. It's not just from this post either, ever since his first post something has smelled a little fishy.

The reason I asked him to include a picture of his gun is because that would make it absolutely sure it's a current picture, and not a copied one off the internet. If he had mentioned anything else that he had with him, I would have said to include that in the picture, basically anything to provei t's actually him. but there are just a lot of other things that just don't compute. For example, the 20' x 20' shelter? Let's assume it really is 20 foot square. And he does use piine needles to cover it. Let's say it would take at least a one foot thick cover of pine needles to make it even remotely waterproof, (I actually think a lot more, but this is just hypothectically). When's the last time you walked into the forest and found a minimum of 4 x 20' trees and 400 cubic feet of pine needles, just waiting to be turned into a shelter? Now I'm won't even going to count the other branches you'd need to span the frame and support the pine needles, and you'd need quite a few. All this in less than an hour. Does this still seem plausible to you?

Maybe I am unable to understand his post, which you think are so clearly written, but it seems that there are quite a few others who are having the same problem. I want to learn as much as everyone else, but if someone is coming here with some pretty wild stories, they'd better be able to back up their claims with some proof. It isn't rudeness or arrogance (well, maybe a little rudeness on my part), but I think almost everyone here is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff, and they are able to separate the fact from the fiction. And the fact is, almost everyone else here is doubting him, some are just doing it more politely than others.

Oh yeah, and for the record, I actually agree with Boacrow in theory. People should be prepared not with what they carry in their bags, but with the knowledge to survive without all that a specialized equipment. If there is someone out there who can actuallly walk into the woods with nothing but a knife and survive for a long period of time, I would really, really like to meet them, because that is a very rare trait. The irony is, I don't think a person like that would be posting on an internet forum so often <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But what would happen if you go from the forest of Alabama to the deserts of the southwest? Even survival skills and knowledge are limited to some degree.

For now, I'll just stay quiet and wait for pictures. If he actually does do what he claims, I'll sincerely apologize for my comments. Even if they never materialize, this is an entertaining thread to watch.
Posted by: norad45

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 11:14 AM

Interesting post. Thanks. But you mention carrying at least two pieces of "gear": a lighter and (sometimes) a pocketknife. And if you are living for "two months or more" on a diet of nothing but fish and small game I would bet that you will be feeling pretty lousy after awhile, especially after the first couple of weeks when game starts getting scarce. And sooner or later drinking untreated water is going to catch up to you. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 02:06 PM

I'm curious about something. You say there are inconsistancies in my posts yet you don't mention them. I'd kind of like to know what they are. You say that people have done it but you don't think I have. I don't understand your logic. First of all, I grew up in the woods. Where I lived growing up, that's pretty much all we had. I spend alot of time outdoors especially in the summer when the reptiles are out of brumation so naturally I'm gonna learn some stuff anyway. Around here in the boondocks, everybody has some knowledge of the woods, I was just facinated enough to learn more about it. As far as your claim that I just learn everything off the internet without practicing it, what is the basis for that claim? At least what I claim you admitted yourself is possible and you even said many people have done it. I would ask you to at least be polite when you post. The gun probably won't prove anything to you or anybody else. If I posted a pic with me holding the gun in front of a shelter, you could just say that pics of people in the outdoors carry guns and that could be anybody. The particular gun I have is not a common one granted, but I'm sure you could find a pic of someone holding one with very little trouble. I'll have the gun in the pic but I will have a sign or something too so you know it's me. My screenname is something that you probably won't find a picture of. So I guess my point is, why do you people have to be so rude? If you know it's possible, why not give me the benefit of the doubt and hold the nastiness until you're satisfied that you are right? There's an old saying, make your words soft and sweet, for tomorrow, you may have to eat them.
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 05:13 PM

I have to challenge your claim that a lean-to will keep you neither warm nor dry. When my dad was a boy living near Flagstaff, Arizona he and his brothers pretty much had free range to do what ever they pleased after school and chores were done. One time he built a lean-to, exactly as you describe not working, to show his brothers how. He chopped two pine trees down so they were still attached to the stump to form triangular frames. Then he placed poles horizontally across to form a ladder shaped frame sloping towards the ground. Over the top of that he placed pine boughs so that the cut end was in the air at the open end of the lean to and the needles pointed towards the ground. Finally he covered the two triangular shaped sides to create a lean-to with a sloping roof, two triangular walls and a rectangular opening facing away from the prevailling wind. On the open side he built a fire pit with a reflecter to complete the shelter.

Okay, so what, I've just described a shelter from any number of survival books including the US Army manual "Survival, Evasion and Escape", 1966 version. The point is that after he and his brothers were done with it, a homeless woman found it and moved into it. With some augmentation such as covering the floor with cardboard, she spent the winter in that shelter. This is in Flagstaff Arizona, relatively high altitude, winter snow which sticks until spring in non-drought years, and high wind. I would call that a successful shelter from a survival point of view. And survival techniques are why I read this site, not for camping. If I am in a survival situation, i am there because I no longer have all the gear which makes life easier and softer, including my house, electricity, tents, stoves, cafeteria, computer and internet. Anything else, including a bugout with my BOB isn't a suvival situation, at worst, it is an unpleasent camping trip.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/04/06 06:20 PM

Well, I'm glad that at least one person is familiar with this tpe of shelter. Mine is more a roof suspended from trees or poles, but the principle is the same. The one thing I don't understand is, if people don't think lean-to's work, why make them? Why even have them in the books if they can't keep you dry or warm? That doesn't make any sense to me. I would think that they wouldn't want someone wasting time building a shelter that won't work and could possibly cause a death resulting in a lawsuit. For that reason alone, common sense should tell you that they do work. I loved the story AROTC. I bet your father felt good that someone could benefit from his work. Thanks for the post AROTC.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/05/06 02:07 AM

They keep you dry, so long as the wind is favorable. If you have wind that doesn't shift, you're fine, but basically you have at least one side open- you can't do much if the weather changes without building a second shelter. A good shelter works no matter the wind direction.

As for keeping you warm, those open sides and living space are the kicker. Leantos reflect heat from a fire fairly well, but keeping it in if there is no fire is something they don't do so well.

The sole advantage of a lean to is it is easy to remember how to make, and require relatively few materials to make a basic windbreak and reflector. And most manuals will the proceed to the debris shelter, and point out that it works much more efficently.

A wickup (debris shelter) works a lot better, becuase while it doesn't have the space to move in, your body heat can heat it, and the heat of the fire can heat it efficently and effectively. That also means you can have a smaller fire that requires less fuel to keep you warm.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/05/06 03:01 AM

Thank you for clarifiing the type of shelter you are using- you've made what we call a "pole barn" around here, a roof and four open sides. This is a horse of a completely different color.

What you had described initially sounded more like a classic "half an A-frame" leanto a 30 to 60 degree slope, which as I said in another post has it's merits but many more limitations. I've been using that image while trying to wrap my brain around the use of one that is 20' on a side. It would make a great windbreak and heat/light reflector for a group, particularly opposite the living shelter on the other side of the fire, and maybe a reflector to get the attention of anyone using radar (mylar blankets do have a few uses), but I couldn't see what a 20'x20' leanto could be used for other than than that.

If you had mentioned that you were using other materials, I didn't see it. If I had to hazard a guess, the pine with it's pitch is serving as part of the structure of your roofs material, actually glueing other stuff to it?

And there is an easy way to get a timestamp- take the picture with your watch in the way. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Depending on what format you use, it may be possible to mine the time the datafile was created by examining the file itself as a text file, but that varies by format.

As for the "few minutes", I've reexamined this thread. I may have imported something from another thread, and for that I admit and apologize for my error. An hour may be marginal, but not utterly inconvievable, particularly if you have a large brush pile on hand for roofing matieral. *sketching a short bow* Without meaning offense, I think we both need either more or less caffine.

(BTW, you had mentioned quiting smoking- my method was to switch to a pipe. It takes time to fuss with it, and if you smoke it outside in winter, after a while, you find yourself needing to be warm more. You don't really have much winter, but I suppose sticking the pipe, tobbacco and lighter in the freezer might simulate enough of the effect, particularly if your teeth are cold sensative.)

So we've returned to my origional point of contention- how are you waterproofing this roof? Particularly with this shallower angle. How thick is the total material on your roof, and how often do you have to repair it?
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/05/06 06:57 AM

Sorry about the confusion in my description. Actually a pole barn describes it perfectly but I wasn't sure if that was a universal term. I actually have never used a proper lean-to although I have built them to show other people what they were. You are correct in your assertion that we usually have large brush piles all over the place. One of the by produts of the timber company. The place I have the most experience with was once clear cut but eventually was replanted and is once again a forest, so much of the materials I used I poached from several of these piles. Some of them are no longer there due to my use. The time stamp thing I will work on before hand to see if I can figure out a good way to do it so that it is readable. I have a new camera that I am not at all familiar with so it may take a little time to figure out exactly how to use all of the features on it. Thanks for the tip on smoking too. I actually have a pipe that I carved not too long ago but I don't think I seasoned it properly or something. It was my first attempt so I'm not sure if I did it right or not. It is rather harsh and somewhat hard to keep lit. The waterproofing thing I try to do with the angle of the roof. I try to get one side as high as I can so I can still walk under the low side without cracking my head on a sharp limb. Sometimes that's not possible so it does rather resemble a lean-to although neither side touches the ground.The main thing I am concerned with is the part directly over the hammock since that is where I sit while waiting out the rain. I usually have to patch it every couple of days if it rains continuously, especially over the fire since it wilts leaves and warps the needles much faster.Patching is just a simple matter of throwing stuff up there from the low side. hrowing limbs ct side first, they act like an arrow almost and with practice I can hit exactly where I want. They usually end up quite thick, ending up somewhere around two feet thick maybe more depending on how long I've been there. Of course it doesn't rain all the time so I don't patch it all the time, so I don't spend a lot of time working on them after they are up. I have been thinking about going out in the woods near my home and secretely building one but I'm kind of nervous about someone walking up on me wondering what I am doing (it's private land and I don't have permission to do something like this). Other than that I have to travel about an hour to get somewhere and even then I have to deal with people walking up on me. At least I would have permission there. Anyway, I will figure out all the details of the where and when and get some pics.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/06/06 01:24 AM

Pole barn might just be a New England term. Like "wicked" (and that's only in Maine and along Rte 2).

If you have your materials precut, that's half cheating. :P Thats one of the problems with primative skills, and a significant part of why I discount them as much as I do- once you are outside of your normal area, things can change radically. It's not as bad for this, but if you budget X amount of time, and suddenly realise you need 2X just to get your roofing material, that turns into a long drippy night. Have you ever tried this with something more single person sized, say 10x10, using nothing but fresh materials and seen what your time was?

My biggest concern if you are using brush piles is your fire. Dry brush == tinder + small wood. I've read about entire villages that disappeared in the night due to thatched roofs catching fire from cinders. I have a rule when I'm in trouble- don't make it worse. I've found just about everything short of catamounts, coyotes/coy-wolves and bears in my camp at night, but for some reason the roof becoming a signal fire makes everything but the catamount seem pretty mellow.

For the frozen pipe, try a plastic stem. It should freeze better than wood. A clay or metal stem would be perfect, particularly if it freezes to your tounge. Remember, this is a negative feedback program, it is supposed to suck.
Posted by: AROTC

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/06/06 01:28 AM

Ah, well the suitibility of a shelter depends on the environment. For Boacrow you'll note he is in a warm wet temperate area (Alabama). He may need to stay dry with out needing the extra warmth of a debris hut. I imagine a debris hut in Alabama would be just as stifling in a summer thunderstorm as the tent which served him so poorly. Speaking from my own experiance in Texas, I doubt I'd have been able to sleep in either a tent or a debris hut. A shelter which keeps you mostly dry with out suffocating you is the order of the day. Now, up here in Wyoming, depending on the time of year, I'd probably go with a debris hut. That is if I was spending multiple nights and wasn't already wet and cold. Wet and cold, spending what I hope to be a single unplanned night, I'd build the lean-to and fire screen most rickety-tik, build a big fire and open my coat to it and keep it burning through the night. Soak up the warmth and dry myself out. Hopefully, I've left a flight plan so someone knows where I'm going, and either they or Smoky the Bear will notice my fire and come running.

As they tell us in ROTC, METT-TC: Mission, equipment, troops, time terrain and civilians. Each situation is different. I can't say which shelter I'd choose to build until I get there. It's easy to pick the one you like and say "this is the be all and end all of survival shelters", but it doesn't hold up under real world conditions. And we don't get to set the initial conditions. That's the one of the few erks I have with this site, the few times people have tried to do "What if..." games everyone tries to rearrange the initial conditions because "they would never get caught that way" instead of going with the problem and excercising their problem solving skills. Don't try to make the problem fit your solution, make a solution that fits the problem.
Posted by: Boacrow

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/06/06 02:29 AM

I agree that location can make a huge difference. I have camped in Texas and it wasn't too bad, of course it was cooler then too. Also I notice there isn't as much out there to use in shelter construction. In a different climate, I would have to improvise although I must admit, I'm not sure what the conditions would be exactly. I used to travel alot so I had to be ready for anyhting but now I pretty much stick close to home. Since our largest predators are pretty much small compared to most parts of the country, I don't worry about them too much. I have made smaller shelters but I'm not sure how big they were. The smallest I have made was out of two bed sheets that I pretty much angled to the ground on one side and about six feet high on the other. Total usable floor space was probably about ten foot by whatever the length of a sheet is. I pretty much just slept under it to keep the dew off. I didn't time it although I just used one pole, laid both sheets on the ground and rolled the pole up in the ends to do away with the gap, and tied the four loose corners to stakes. Not sure how long it took but I know it didn't take long at all. The pipe advice is a good one. I used wood for a stem due to availability and cost so it doesn't get very cold. This is my first attempt at a pipe as I said in an earlier post and I fear that I have made quite a few mistakes on it. The bowl turned out looking really good though, I was proud of it anyway. Maybe I can make the next one better.
Posted by: Lance_952

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/06/06 03:17 AM

when I quit smoking a while back I rolled my own. At first it was a pain in the back side to have to hand roll a smoke every time I wanted one. the down side of it other then no filter was I got good at it LOL
In fact I got so good I could do it driving, and they looked like a pre made non filter smoke. I went cold turkey and did real good for six months but then it was either smoke or go to prison for killing the dumb SOB I had to work with. so I went back to smoking, but only do a pack every day and a half now compared to the two packs I was doing
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Where, What materials & Mosquitos - 09/07/06 04:45 AM

It's actually not the predators I'm worried about around here, other than feral dogs. A catamount would have my complete and utterly undivided attention, though, mainly becuase officially they don't live around here anymore. I'm more worried about moose than I am a catamount actually. A brain damaged cow on stilts.

But feral dogs are a major annoyance. The coyotes/coy-wolves and the hunters have pretty much taken care of them, along with rabies, but they don't scare and generally take a lot of killing before they realise they're dead.

Terrain change, and speed, is why I carry two largish (30 gallon) garbage bags in my gear. Each is about the size and weight of a sandwich when folded. Between that, something to dig with and cordage, if you can't make a shelter appropriate for the climate, you aren't trying very hard. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Another idea is to cut your tobacco with lawn clippings, so long as you don't do anything to your lawn. Supposedly, a pipe of 50/50 green hay and tobacco was my dad's punishment when he was caught smoking as a kid. At least so the legend goes- do this outside. Easier clean up.
Posted by: wildman800

Re: My latest outing - 11/12/06 04:05 AM

When I was younger, I read many books about the early mountan men. These men went into wilderness with what they could carry. They were gone for a year. This intrigued me & started me weaving windbreaks around my campsites. That lead to making Apache Wickiups. My main goal was to be in the woods, with a good knife and not only survive, but THRIVE! The knife was my only tool but my imagination was my greatest asset!