Equipped when you CAN'T carry

Back at the end of April through the end of May, I had a frustrating experience. I was on Grand Jury. Now the Jury Duty was interesting enough, but the problem was - going into the court house

How can you be equipped?

Flashlights - banned (the let me slide on my keychain AAA)
Knifes - yeah right
Metal Tins (like an altoids tin) - nope
Cell Phones - so long as it did NOT have a camera

I felt naked for a month - and they actually let GJs slide a bit (see the flashlight, and they let me keep my phone)

I did slip some bandades in my wallet, but man, did I feel naked. I'd "sanitize" myself as I left the truck, and as soon as I got back, the gear would go on

Any hints?

Do you have OCD? LOL <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...... Look at it this way, how many feet/yards were you from your vehicle? How long would it take you to get back there? You were equipped.

I feel the same way sometimes about packing my weapon. Some places you just can't, even with my permit.
But I am never all to far away from one <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You were equipped. Not as well as you might have liked, but unless they required you to check your brain and body at the door, you had the bare minimum. It was enough to get you to the soft cache of gear in your ride.

OCD? Somethimes I think so - how far to my truck? About a 3 block walk - I did end up cutting myself on GJ - they were actually going to call a medic - I said "don't bother" - went to the bathroom, washed the cut, and used a towel for direct compression - scab still healing (fell, nasty gash on my leg - I slid on a step, and the step gouged my leg)

Every time I needed to cut something (open a package etc) I felt naked - BTW I'm one of thos folks who uses his knife a LOT. The dinner knife I gave myself last night was dull - needed to cut the string on the asparagus - took out the pocket knife - BBQing? Forgot to take out the kitchen knife to check how done the meat was - pocket knife works. Whenever a need a REALLY sharp knife, I just reach down. I gibe the knife a daily cleaning, so no big deal - when doing the dishes, I take it out, and wash and dry the blade, and put it away. My wife is always amazed - snick, slice, snap, back in pouch - fast enough that most folks don't even realize what I did

Man, I admire you and your fortitude. I could never live where you do and stand it for long. Not a big-city person. No offense intended at all on my part. I just have to be packin my EDC gear. 4" blade limit for carrying on you around here. Don't know much about that, but I always pack my blade. Somebody asks me if I have a knife and I reply "Do I have my pants on?" I just think its a shame they stripped you nekkid by making you not carry your blade.

kc2ixe, OCD - obsessive compulsive disorder <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I can joke about it, my wife has it, lol

Perhaps you should be met at the door by your Shield Maiden (the Wife/Girlfriend/S.O.)? With your kit in a belt pouch. I had a simular problem when I did jury service. I got so pissed off with being searched that I had any number of metal objects on me. Just by way of being awkward. I had one [censored] of a guard ask me if I was a defendant or a witness? My frosty response of "Sitting Juror" took the wind right out of his sails.

I had a similar experience, called for jury duty... I report in, and empty my pockets. I had left virtually everything in the car that I thought could get me in trouble, including my "other" key ring with the fire starter, Leatherman, whistle, etc etc... what I forgot was that on the key ring that I actually use for keys, I still had a tiny SAK (1 inch blade). I mostly use that for the tweezers actually.

Anyway, I didn't even notice it when I dropped it into the little bucket with my change, watch, cell phone, wallet... so then I walk through the metal detector, and the little bucket is going through the xray and I hear (in a very loud voice) "YOU DIDN'T REALLY THINK WE'D LET YOU BRING A WEAPON INTO THE JURY ROOM DID YOU?"

When my fellow jurors saw the "weapon", they all started laughing, which didn't really go over very well with the security folks. I guess if I was Crocodile Dundee I would have pulled out a machette and said "that's not a knife, THIS is a knife" <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Basic Tool- Brain
Secoundry-Appendages <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
If your Buck naked what would you do?
Look and See! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Body!

Some people (Cough Cough) have been known to take an old key that doesn't fit a doorknob any more, and sharpen the serated (toothed) side. That key fits on a key ring and is undetectable unless someone actually looks at it close. For what its worth.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Take care and stay safe

If you want real trouble, tell the judge that you are a Fully Informed Juror, and you'll vote as your conscience directs.

Sue

This is the United Kingdom (from my point of view), and being a civilised nation, unlike you poor benighted barbarians beyond the pond, a Juror will do exactly that. The Juror's oath in the U.K. is to render a verdict according to the evdence. The United Kingdom is the only country in the world that permits a defence of breaking the law to prevent something worse happening. Jurys are concerned as much with the "why" as the "what." And a Juror is absolutely independent of the Judge. Which upsets certain partys. We had a case quite recently when a Jury refused to continue a trial because one or more of them felt that the Judge had taken a dislike to the defendant.

How can flashlights be banned? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The world has gone mad.

-- Craig

I believe it started in The Netherlands <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Wow! That wouldn't fly over here. The judge would hold them all in contempt and throw all the jurors behind bars.

Never make the mistake I did once- point out that the human hand is a lot more leathal than that itty bitty little letter opener.

That happened back here in the 1700's (I think). The Jury Foreman applied for a writ of habas corpus. Which is held to be proof that a Jury is independent of the Judge. You would have a National Outcry if the Judge tried to jail a jury overhere.

a very true statement, but you got in trouble for saying it?

They felt intimidated. It was a federal building, and they had something going on, so the local guys (who have a clue) were temporarily replaced by these goobs from someplace a bit more urban.

One of my Co-workers is a noted troublemaker. As I am sure you are all aware, we are having a spot of bother over here with criminals misusing knives. She tried to claim that my SAK is an offensive weapon. It isn't. I should be arrested. It should be taken away from me . I might kill someone with it etc, etc, etc. So I pointed out to her, in the nicest fashion possible, that I could see half a dozen items around her desk that would make perfect murder weapons. Starting with that chair she was sat on......
The point is of course that even if your buck naked, you still have all the know how inside your head. Improvise.

If anyone at work comments on the little 3" Kershaw Vapor that I've taken to carrying clipped inside my waistband (so as not to alarm the natives) I'm going to march them down to the break room/kitchen, open a drawer, and slap the half-dozen really nasty looking kitchen knives in there down on the counter.

- Tom S.

On this side of the pond, you do as you're told. That goes for on the job -- or on the jury. The judge likes to maintain control just as much as your manager does.

That's "interesting." Does that mean that if The Judge says " I say that man is Guilty and you will, By God, find him Guilty!" you are going to do as you are told? The Judges job is to ensure fair play, rule on matters of law and to make sure that the defendant receive's a fair trial. Not tell a Jury what it may or may not think. Ok, fundamental urban survival skill: making sure that you know exactly what the Judge may or may not do. P.s. As a point:- In the trial overhere the Judge stopped the trial, recused himself and passed the matter over to another Judge with a different Jury.

"Does that mean that if The Judge says ' I say that man is Guilty and you will, By God, find him Guilty!' you are going to do as you are told?"

Such an instruction would certaintly result in the verdict being appealed and overturned. Oddly enough, I have heard that in some states judges can overturn a guilty verdict however.

Can we assume that's sarcasm? There are most definitely some informed jurors on this side of the pond, and we have a LOT more rights than most judges or Prosecuting Attorneys or DAs or ADAs want us to know about. Our duty is to uphold the law, but in many cases, the law is contradictory, loaded with politicized terminology or simply shouldn't apply to ALL circumstances. It is our duty as American Citizens to base any verdict on the law, the evidence and the situation, including common sense. I've even read where laws were essentially nullified/ignored by the jury. There's plenty to read on this and trust me when I say that there are a lot of folks who don't want juries to be informed.

Part of the problem of our system is that every marginally intelligent potential juror sees avoiding jury duty as the real "duty". They need to pay a reasonable wage for jurors and pass laws to insure that companies of a certain size must continue salaries to those involved in long trials. For smaller companies, a nationwide "jury employment insurance" of some sort would go a long way toward putting more people on the stand than government workers.

And the process is meant to streamline everything to make the DA's job simpler... why inform jurors of ALL the rights they have when you can tell them about the ones the DA cares about?

You're quite correct. But I shall be long dead before that happens. And it never will. I look upon jury duty as onerous. Time lost. Tasks left undone. As soon as the orientation official starts droning on about obligations and responsibilities I know someone is about to force me to eat my vegetables.

The best way to avoid it is to just tell the truth. I was summoned back in February for a civil suit involving personal injury. I was excused after I admitted that I thought the large awards paid out in the tobacco settlement were a crock. I'll admit I felt a little like a red-headed stepchild as I slunk out of the jury room with all the other rejects though. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Agree. I went down to the court house after receiving a jury summons, sat in the jury box for all of 3 minutes during jury questioning and was immediately removed by the plaintiff's attorney -- total waste of time.

I work for myself now and will not pay myself during jury duty. So when the summons arrive I let them know that I don't get paid by my employer for jury duty and that's the end of it.

Earlier this year, Carol Asher of Idaho was jailed by the judge for mentioning to another (snitch) juror that she "answered to a higher authority than the judge" and would "vote her conscience". The case is now over, the charges were dismissed, Ms. Asher is free, and she owes $16,000 in attorney costs to defend herself against charges of felony perjury that should never have been filed.

http://proliberty.com/observer/20060202.htm

There are some informed jurors. Most are not. Most believe that you have to obey the judge. You are often asked if you WILL agree to obey the judge before you are accepted for jury duty.

Quoting an article by Iloilo Marguerite Jones in the American Juror I received this week: "What struck me most significantly... was that the jurors actually did not know their rights and did not know they could not be punished for their deliberations or verdict, and the laywer one juror called didn't know the truth either. Yet the jurors should have known, and every lawyer, including all judges, should be telling them about their rights, their authority, and their immunity."
http://fija.org/index.php?page=displaytxt&id=162&refer=news

But they're not. Jurors are deliberately lied to, or lied to by omission of information or evidence. I've mentioned the dumbing down of Americans before, and this is one of the horror stories that goes along with it.

It's easy to feel intimidated, but I'm too much of a cub scout to not tell the entire truth. The truth is, in some matters, I AM biased, we all are.

God knows I'm no lawyer, but from what I've read, should you decide not to follow the judge's instructions, whatever they may be, you do so at your own peril, and you risk a Contempt of Court citation.

All I know is -- and I know precious little -- you do as you are told.

That has all sorts of nasty implications. It's grounds to go to a higher court for a Writ of Habus Corpus. Look on the Judges face when that's served on him would be well worth seeing.

Yes it was. But to make a point.

I resent that. I am NOT benighted.

Actually, jury nulification is one of the better traditions we inherited from our English oppressors. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The reason it doesn't work as well as it might is that (a) judges don't have set rules about what they have to inform the jury about, (b) it annoys judges so they don't talk about it, (c) most people aren't aware of it, and (d) if you are the only person on the jury who is holding the works up, the rest are going to eventually wear you down until you give in. Also, if you mention that you even know about jury nulification, odds are, one side or the other will object to you being on the jury, if not both.

It's one of those little known and rarely used perks of our justice system. It's just that there are too many ignorant sheep in this country.

About 45 years ago, there was a science fiction author named H. Beam Piper. I think he would have fit in here, but he commited suicide. Good stuff, I recommend his writtings.

I mention him becuase in one of his stories he wrote a line that I'll never be able to foget. It descibed the perfect jury: "Twelve men, good and true, who couldn't pour sand out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heal."

If you are too smart, the lawyers don't want you in the jury box.

In an urban setting, I would say knowing your rights and responsabilities as a citizen (or subject, if you are on of our British friends) is at least as important as knowing how to make shelter in a wilderness setting.

I always get kicked out of the jury pool. *pouts* I get board waiting during selection, so I take a little pocket sized book that has the Consititution, the Federalist Papers, et al, with the Constitution right on the cover. For some reason, they don't like me.

I must admit that I found Grand Jury interesting - 23 people, you need 12 to indict. 16 must have been present for all testimony to vote (most days we had all 23) -4 week term (my boss paid) - Gran Jurors get treated a bit better than regular jurors, as they KNOW you are going to be there for quite a while (special GJs around here can sit for 6 MONTHS - but only 2-3 days/week)

There is NO juror selection for GJ in this county - you are called, and if you don't have health/chaildcare or financial reasons you can't serve - your ON - no other questions - and if your company pays, that is considered "no financial reasons" - I think we lost 2-3 candidates out of the pool, otherwise it was "first 23 through the door" (actually we had 3 GJs start the same day, so it was first 69 through the door) - we had research scientists, scrub nurses, retired folks, bookkeepers, teachers, programmers, etc

Jury nullification <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I admit I knew nothing about this at all. A well-kept secret.

-- Craig

Jury nullification is a very important fact that I think everyone should know about. We had a case involving it a few years ago in Colorado, the lady from the jury was accused of lying on the forms the jurists had to fill out, it was eventually dismissed.

As I understand it, it was used heavily prior to the Civil War. Evidently, many states had laws that forbid helping slaves find their way north to freedom. Many people were caught red-handed and found not guilty by a jury of their peers, law or no law.

Sometimes, there is still justice in the world.

Indeed a well kept secret. As I said, there's a mountain of "professionals" who are more than willing to keep quiet on this. It may have it's abuses, but the system errs on the side of letting people go free vs. falsely convict. The beauty of it is that every day people have the ability to create justice where our laws might not have been created so.

I think that JN has been effectively pushed to such a small percentage of cases and nobody in power wants it well known, so I doubt any "memo" is going to strip this power (like removing the right to a writ of habeas corpus for "enemy combatants" - even American Citizens which violates at least 3 or 4 of the Bill of Rights of the constitution). But if it does, I just might break out my passport (with included RFID, DNA sample, and barcode that matches my implanted satellite trackable Personal ID chip) and go native someplace... <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If you ever get the chance, read Richard Holmes " Rebels & Redcoats" ISBN 0 00 715626. Has a few interesting things to say about those "oppressors."

They just confiscated your torch mate. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And there's no windows in the joint. Oh, Dear.... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is a perfect example of why it is so important to learn to survive with no gear at all. To learn to adapt to your environment and improvise in as many situations as possible.

I would take my shemaugh and a few nice, round polished stones with me, or maybe some marbles. I have never served jury duty, or even been asked to serve. Why is it some people have to do it repeatedly, and some never? I have no marks against me, I am a registered voter who's performed other, voluntary civic duty, and yet I don't know if I've ever even been on anyone's list.

As for the scarf and the marbles? Well, somewhere I read that a scarf is an excellent defensive weapon if used properly. Marbles too have their uses, be creative. Even a plastic straw, some paper clips and some tape make a nice little firearm.

Oh yes, a scarf is very, very good. Years ago I had a white silk scarf, about 6' long, very urbane. I folded it back on itself at each end, and stitched in four ounces of lead split shot held in cheese cloth inside each pocket. From five feet, it just looked like the ends were decoratively quilted.

If you can fight with a chain, you're set. And I don't mean biker style, I mean like a manriki-gusari. All the blocks, swings, snaps and traps work just fine, and it makes a better bolo. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And it's a wonderful fist pack.

If you aren't sure, dress to kill.

Oh, and ben, aren't you in the greater NYC area? Are you sure you want to be wearing a shemaugh?