Shelter - Tent or Tarp

Hi, all. I'm looking for some input on what type of emergency shelter to carry in the trunk of my car. I have a tent right now (a Eureka Backcountry 2), which is a nice little tent; although a bit “cool” when it’s cold outside (It is billed as a “three-season tent”). I was thinking a tarp or a lean-to might be a better choice. My thinking is with the lean-to, I can have a reflector fire going, radiating heat into the lean-to. That can't be done with a tent. The only time I can think of when a tent would be a better choice would be when there are a lot of flies, gnats and such. <br>I was thinking of one of the Whelen or Forester types of lean-tos, which is basically a lean-to that has sides on it. Weight isn’t much of a factor, since it will be kept in the trunk of the car (along with a sleeping bag, blankets, extra clothes, etc.). Come to think of it, all I need now is a small fridge to keep the beer in, and a GPS and a cell phone so I can give the pizza delivery guy directions! I really shouldn’t make it too comfortable; if someone tries to “rescue” me, I may refuse to go back with them. :-)<br>

There are lots of options available. A quick one that comes to mind is to carry the tent and a tarp. That will give you a luttle flexibility. In the winter, you could set up the tarp over the tent, leaving a few inches to act as an insulator.

Well, since you seem to be getting comfortable and not worrying overly much about the trunk space I would suggest these options for your consideration.<br><br><br>The Tent<br><br>and <br><br><br>The Stove<br><br>It is a pricey set of options but you sure will be comfortable.<br><br>[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img][img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Your vehicle itself is a pretty good shelter without any modification. I have spent several nights sleeping in the vehicle. I especially recall being stranded in a snowstorm and another occasion when we left our tent in a violent thunderstorm for the somewhat better protection of the vehicle.<br><br>Tents provide superior shelter in inclement conditions, especially in cold, windy conditions, although they can be quite noisy. The "three season tents" are code for a light tent that will keep the bugs and dew out and provide privacy. Snow caves and constructed shelters offer a calmer environment. A leanto is pleasant if conditions are fairly calm, otherwise the fire will not keep you all that warm.<br><br>If you get a tent, get one that is sturdy enough for the most extreme conditions you might encounter. You probably don't need to bother with weight. Rather than a tent, I would be sure I had enough insulation in clothing and sleeping bags that I would not have to depend on the fire exclusively. I always keep a few tarps in my vehicle so that I can extend the inherent shelter provided by the vehicle outward.

You're better off making your own hi-tech tarp, from 65g/m2 nylon, silicone elastomer coated on both sides. Dimensions should be no less than 280cm x 180cm, with at least 12 loop attachment points, reinforced with cordura. 8 of these loops should be around the outside, and the other 4 through the middle. It's very difficult to find a tarp of this quality, and expensive too. The only people I know of who make a tarp like this is the SASS, Special Air Sea Services. The one they have also accommodates 2 aluminium looped poles, so it doubles as a tent if need be. This is what it looks like:<br>http://www.sass-kit.fsbusiness.co.uk/catalogue16/images/Foul_Weather/hootchie-double.gif<br>

I have spent many nights snug as a bug in a 12'x12' canvass tarp. This is one side of a bigger 1750 type native hunting lodge less the bell ends.<br><br>I have fire just inside the front usually with a reflector of logs and or rocks, and I can think of several ways to set it up depending on the weather.<br><br>For a 12'x12' you can set it like a "A" frame and lift one side up. <br>You can stake 3 corners down and lift the 4th with one pole. You can off set 4 poles 2 long and 2 short and wrap the canvass making a 4 pole tee pee sorta.<br><br>With 2 12'x12's you can make probably the best shelter anyone would ever want.... but this takes a few poles 5 minimum, and the ends need to be closed. I use this often when there is a group.... <br><br>my 12x12s have loops sewn one every 3 feet around the edge, and every 3 feet on the seams on one side.... the possibilities are almost endless, and 1 man can carry this if folded and rolled tight, which ends up at about 10"x8"x28" I don't know the weight off hand, maybe 8 to 10 lbs......<br><br>Canvass is heavier that nylon, but with care will out last nylon.<br>Nylon is a no fire deal, just a single spark will melt a hole.<br><br>When I go modern with a tent any fire I have is 25 yards down wind.<br><br>Nylon winter tents are simply stronger, and a bit tighter. They are not ment to be warm one way or the other. Bibler make a single layer gortex tent that might cut wind better so far as wind chill is concerned..... ventilation is a good thing in winter, as there is less "Breath" to coat the inside of fabric. Wishin I had a bibler..... I have seen snow storms inside a tent ;-) That makes things wet.<br><br>I have both canvass and nylon....when hiking I use the nylon, when boating I use the canvass....... Mac

jampot I see you can include links.... My friends site for your adventure is http://www.tentsmiths.com/ he has made tents for the arctic and many other places and times..... He knows what works best where..... he made the canvass tarps i use now, and he can make tents of a very tight cotton.. check him out....... his "Top of the World Tent" just might be what your looking for...... Mac

I'm into lightweight hiking only. Those canvas tarps and tents seem pretty heavy. That SASS hootchie I mentioned is approx 700g. Combine that with a goretex bivibag of about 1100g and you have a degree of personal protection no tent can match. In sub-zero climes it's best to wear ventile cotton clothing. Maybe this is what you mean when you say he makes tents from very tight cotton. I'll probably decide on a quinze when I go to Lappland next year. Incidentally, the treeline in Lappland extends farther north than anywhere else in the world.

A shelter's value can be measured by the old realter's adage "location,location,location." Check out the Colorado firstrax link in survival links.

Another source for canvas type shelters is David Ellis @ www.cowboycamp.net Anyone choosing traditional canvas would do well to buy from a tentmaker of repute. Painter's drop cloths and even some production items have a fatal flaw. Look for black peppering in the cloth ( ask for samples) This is a sign of cheap canvas that has not been cleaned before weaving. Quality canvas is a clean vanilla white ( unless treated for water or fire retardance.) I wrapped myself in a reproduction bedroll and spent the night sneazing and coughing from exotic pollens and dust. Canvas should be pre soaked before use to shrink seams and increase water repellency.

We are in different countries so I have no idea what some of these things are. "ventile cotton clothing"? I wear wool.... What is "quinze"?<br><br>My friend uses a specicial eygptian cotton blend made to his spects. As is it will turn thorns, and it can be oiled...he buys it oiled....you don't do anything but live in it....<br><br>yes if you intend to carry this on your back synthectics are the way to go. Each has advantages and disadvantages, also life times as well.<br><br>I hope you at least look at the site. I think the top of the world tent is made to be dragged on a sled, as the idea for it to be taken, is that people would need to drag more food than they can possibly carry.....So why carry anything more than the clothes on your back, and everything else goes in the sled.<br><br>You might e mail peter and ask how long the trip was that that tent was used for... I can't be sure, but think it was 3 months....No one can carry 3 months supplies in a single pack.<br><br>I met peter 20 years ago, and he was making tents full time then....he has made no syntheic tents, but has made tents for every coner of the world and for historical events from about every date you can dream up......if you know of a tent that he doesn't he would want to know about it....of that I am 100% sure......Mac<br>ps: I am just dying to know pre trip details! Like when where how long, and what ever you wish to share????

yeah I know what you mean....I made a drop cloth "Tick" for historical re-enactments, but I stuffed it with straw anyway.<br><br>My Tarp is sold as a tarp and made by the friend I speak of here... I was not cheap, and is 6 years old and stained from many camps from smoke. I think the 12x12 was like 70 dollars with loops sewn every 3' every where on one side...that means egdes and surface..... I am considering a eygptian cotton un oiled for a bit less weight, and far smaller size folded....... each material has its advantages..... I like fire dead center in a tent, or sometimes anyplace I want in them with the doors closed and the fire inside. I know of several types that can do that, but none are syntheics....Mac

Puuvilla vastaan lumi?

I'm not sure if you're asking me if I prefer a cotton or snow shelter. It would have to be snow since I don't carry a tent, cotton or otherwise. I have never experienced arctic conditions before, but from what I hear about Lappland, it's not too cold if you keep away from the eastern interior, and outside of winter it's too wet.

A quinze is just a snow house made from loose snow, heaped up, and allowed to set before hollowing out the interior. It's actually warmer than an igloo, if made properly.<br>I mentioned in a previous post about doing a bit of trapping, fishing, and learning about edible plants, nothing too serious. This reduces the burden of carrying too much food. I'd much rather buy it to tell you the truth, but when you're miles from the nearest store you haven't got much choice. The idea of going on a winter trip like this would be to gain as much bodyweight as possible, beforehand. Some people will know, especially people who regularly lose weight, the body becomes very sensitive to gaining weight the first chance it gets. People who are not in the habit of losing weight will find they aren't very good at gaining it either, at least not quickly. I find gaining and losing 40lB fairly easy.<br>I'm a little wary of venturing too far in cold and snowbound conditions, since I hike alone. You ask when, where, how long? It would be next year, january or february, where exactly I don't know. I'd like to try and endure it for at least 4 weeks. I'm looking forward to those northern lights.

Hey, guys. Thanks for all the replies. I'm still leaning towards a smaller shelter for my emergency gear. I know I'd love to have the wall tent and cylinder stove on hand, but I can't justify hauling something that large and heavy around with me on the off chance that I’ll use it; my car isn’t that big. I, like most in here, carry a BOB with me all the time. I'm mainly trying to prepare for an unexpected night out due to a mechanical breakdown in my car or getting stuck in a winter storm. (I got “stranded” a few years back when the rig I was driving had the fuel jell up from being too cold. I can tell you that when the engine isn’t running, the cab gets COLD real fast; that experience makes me demand that people I care about carry blankets and other emergency gear with them when they’re in their vehicles). I’ve even given “Christmas gifts” of Tupperware containers containing things like candles, matches, knives, whistles, signal flags, Powerbars and jars of peanut butter to loved ones. They may think it’s a goofy gift at first, but most will humor me and keep it in the trunk of their cars. It’s something I hope they never need, but if they do, it’s there. (I’ve had people tell me they don’t need this stuff; that they carry a cell phone. - I told them the cell phone is a great idea, “but what will you do if it’s below freezing outside, your kids are in the back seat of the car, and no one can get to you for a few hours?”) If you prepare for it, it won’t be that bad. Thanks for listening.

People thought I was nuts, back in college, for keeping a kit in my car, and another in my closet. Then we had the remains of a huuricane run up the Connaticut river a couple years ago, and we lost power for a day an half. <br><br>Guess who was no longer laughed at for keeping things like a 5-gallon jug of water, a little battery powered campstove taht ate charoal briquettes, and the like on hand. They were begging me to let them heat water so they could make coffee or instant soup. <br><br>As for the people who think "I've got a cell phone, I'll be ok", and Mac can back me up on this, resque services around here are starting to charge those idiots mucho bucks. Peronsonally, I'd be tempted to let 'em freeze, and call it evolution in action- there's a reason I'm not in a SAR team.

I know how you feel - When the boss said we have to watch out for other people doing dopey things (…to keep them from hurting themselves), one guy says "but we need accidents, accidents are Mother Nature's way of getting rid of stupid people before they have a chance to breed another generation of stupid people. Accidents actually help improve our species.” Everybody except the boss thought it was funny!

Quinzhees warmer than igloos? I've slept in both and quicky snow shelters and my thermometer read a few degrees below zero in all. This was in Arctic survival school and later for fun during Arctic and Antarctic patrols. Quinzhees are less sophisticated and easier to build. The disadvantage is waiting two hours for the snow to firm up. The Igloo can be built with skill in less than half an hour. The additional advantage is having built a few levels you are in a windbreak and removing materials from inside. When in doubt do as the natives do. Inuit use igloos.

rgr that! You get in to kimshee and call, you pay even if found dead! It has come to pass that a phone call rescue for some situations cause too much risk for rescue works, and intterupt the families of the works. We are voulunteers and not paid, but the service does in fact charge. The services for some groups bring all kinds of equipment extra too, stuff that is not likely to be needed...... so I would do my best to get any rescue needs sorted out before going on a adventure.<br><br>Certain needs such as a first heart attack are looked on as a true accident, but you still pay. Other incidents like having no meds and it is the 5th heart attack cause the rescue party to become sort of jaded. Other things like passing the "Don't pass this sign due to avalanch conditions." will get you mocked out in person if your still sucking air when found.<br><br>requesting a helicopter is really not a good idea in the Whites... I don't own a cell phone, and have no need of ever owning a cell phone..... I don't have the tin foil hat that you need to use a cell phone either!!! Mac

remember that you can't allways biuld igloos due to the snow being to powdery. I herd you can't build them in the far north of sweeden cos of that.<br>don't know about lappland......<br>-james<br>

That brought to mind a rescue on Lake Winnipesaukee. It seems some city folks decided to go check on their summer camp at about ice out time. They got in a safu and "CALLED".<br><br>Well the ice was unwalkable, and unboatable, so after finding no way to normally get there a Hoover Craft was called in....<br><br>Well..... the fire dept locally did not have one, but they had every thing at the dock anyway..... ambulances, fire trucks, power wagons, you name it even the dalmation. EMTs as far as the eye can see! This was rather a spectical to say the least with the atmosphere of a carnival. Ice out is a big deal here... we even make bets on it...... Well after about 14 hours the Hoover Craft came on the scene, and the folks were recovered, but the bill was some place around $25,000.00 when all was settled..... These folks are not likely to repeat that call I bet, but not because the bill was enough to buy another summer camp, but that they half froze waiting for the Hoover Craft

Sounds interesting. It seems you want to bulk up and starve.<br>I have no ideas about that. I seem to be stuck at scronney dog 140 -145 pounds and 5'11". I would die trying what your gonna try. I would need to bring carbs and proteins, with supplementing as possible from the land.... Birch tea and the like, perhaps labradore teas too. When I go out I try to bring powdered grains and make cearals with chips of maple sugar, and what we call "GORP" a mix of seeds and rasins, sometimes honey coated. I can pound that and add wheat flour to make hot cakes if cooking is possible. I think you might get by bringing 8 ounces a day rations dry weight.<br><br>The one thing that gets me is running out of energy which can happen unexpectedly to me. I can recover with rest and fuel quickly, and with just rest a little longer. I find about 3 days with no food at all, just water and I become drained to the point under stressful hiking that I can't think clearly, and that gets to be dangerous. Then small errors can become big errors. When that sort of thing happens I tend to want to sleep, and that is when hypothermia can take over, and really mess up your thinking processes. When you are in full blown hypothermia you do really stupid things, just ask me! I sort of test myself at this a few years ago with trusted friends, and they were pretty mad at me later even though they agreed to take care of me. I wanted to see for myself just how stupid I would get. I was stupid enough that I could not do any simple math, write ledgibly and so on. I became a basic pain in the butt, much like drinking does..... Finally after many hours I was hand fed, and a full report was made to me after the test. The test was never repeated. To make a shorter story I had drained myself in wet/ cold conditions to see how far I personally could go, and found day 3 with no food and hard work in that type of condition was father than I could go alone. Had I been alone some place around 48 hours working 24 hours a day probably would have killed me. My thinking stopped at about that time........ I hope you can use this info in your up coming situation.<br><br> I have never been there, and wonder if you can depend on a constant snow base. last year here we had 5' at this time of year, but this year we have just 8". I have built the quinze before, but did not know the name for it. I agree when set up these are good shelters, but I have been in a igloo at 5000 feet, and found that rather comfy at -96'F with a 150 knot breeze outside. Info direct to 2 way radio on rescue request from Mt Washinton weather station. I did not build the igloo..... That remains a mystery to me to this day, and it was a true mystery as I had been to where I found it the day before in clear conditions, and it was NOT there then! I have 1 photo of it from the outside, and several from the inside........ to me this was truly unbelievable, and complete with some type of "EASTERN" hyroglphics inside????? These are slides from a 35mm manual minolta, and I have no decent way of showing these here. I have no way to get good quality scans of slides. I wish i did, because i would like to ask the world about this.<br><br>I would be interested in hearing more details that you decide as you decide what they will be..... Mac<br>I would suggest you bring a shelter, and food on a trip like this. A tarp of some light weight material can atleast block wind so you can have fire/stove working. I have seen winds that will blow out a fire and scatter it all over, and also blow out stoves. If you can count on a snow base then the shelter is not needed though. Ofter i carry a gortex bivy, bag, and vapior barrier for inside the bag only, and sleep under the stars in winter average temps at night about -15'F at 5000'.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I don't have the tin foil hat that you need to use a cell phone either!!! Mac<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>For an in-depth look at the usage and fabrication of such a hat check this link<br><br><br><br><br><br>Seems that I could easily fabricate this from the foil that I carry around my altoids tin now and that would make the cellphone a useful adjunct to my PSK.

Gotta jump in here somewhere... sorry I haven't been on for a while - dashed out to Colorado for a week (not for fun - Dad had an emergency bypass - he is now "turbocharged Grandpa" according to our youngest son)<br><br>Jampot, while I have not been in Lapland, I have spent a lot of time (years) "professionally" outdoors in the arctic, including teaching survival training (short and long term). I have built and used just about every kind of shelter (including many variations of "no shelter"), and most have their place. Factually, a snow shelter is a snow shelter, no matter if it be quinzee, "igloo" (which is NOT a North American Eskimo shelter - peculiar to Greenland, IIRC), or thermal shelter. Density of snow, thickness, interior dimensions/volume, ground temperature (if close enough to ground to matter), etc. are the variables. Having said that... quinzees and their close cousin thermal shelters typically have lower density snow than igloos = better insulating value. If the snow conditions permit, I agree that igloos are by far the fastest to build.<br><br>I strongly suggest that you do not plan to go without alternatives to snow shelters - the snow just isn't there sometimes, or is otherwise unsuitable for the conditions (a chinook can make a snow shelter a dripping wet hypothermia chamber, for example). I like snowshelters... but I won't stake my life on them without a backup plan. Neither will the native North Americans I've known and lived with, and their old folks are the "real experts" in this hemisphere.<br><br>Four weeks is a long time for the first trip to the Arctic. January, in particular, can bring some extreme temperatures. No one can accurately predict how they will fare on a given day in extreme temperatures. Some days one may function perfectly well at -40C; other days the same person may be in great discomfort and danger at -25C... there are too many physiological and mental variables to enumerate here. And the dangers from hypothermia when by oneself cannot be understated. You really have to have been there (and pulled back by someone else) to fully appreciate this, as I think Mac implied. If you are by yourself, once hypothermia gets to late stage 1 / early stage 2, you ARE GOING TO DIE if you are by yourself - no equivocation; no exceptions. I have heard from a lot of people who say they were hypothermic and did thus and such to save themselves - BS! They were simply very cold or in stage one hypothermia by definition. So... avoid hypothermia, eh? I'd like to read about your trip next year when you get back from it - from your hand. <grin><br><br>A proper tent is the surest thing - you don't have to use it all the time. A frost liner makes a difference, and I highly suggest you make and use one if you decide on a tent. You should be able to run your stove in your tent, of course (In the USA, Boy Scouts of America does not permit that, but it is rather important in extreme conditions). Since it sounds like you will be able to use open fires at least part of the time, you may be able to carry enough fuel for 4 weeks... it takes a fair bit more in the Arctic. White Gas (Coleman Fuel or preferably Blazo) usually winds up being the best reliable compromise for a long trip like that.<br><br>A tarp is the minimum I would consider. If you really want to "go native", use hides - caribou (reindeer). I agree with Mac - Canvas has better qualities than nylon for this sort of use BUT it's too heavy for the trip you are planning. In the right conditions, a very adequate shelter that I am fond of is a simple snowhole stamped into the snow with my skis or snowshoes, then covered by my tarp. Very fast shelter. Great at -20F; not warm enough at -55F, but much better than nothing.<br><br>Moisture in your sleeping bag is going to be an issue you'll have to plan to deal with. I used a down bag for years in the Arctic with great success - the issue of water (ice) in the bag is the same no matter what the fill in the winter, so synthetics are really no better in those conditions. Plan for it and deal with it and you'll be ahead of the game.<br><br>Food is going to be an issue, no doubt about it. I must disagree with our slender Eastern Mountaineer a bit - think FAT and protien. Lots of fat... You'll crave it - listen to your body. This is a whole topic unto itself... 4 weeks is a LOT of calories to carry, especially if you are active (walking, building shelters, foraging, etc.). Under those conditions, I lose weight at 6,000 calories/day. I stay even at around 7,000 calories / day. I am average sized (~71kg or 180 lbs) and I am lean (cannot float in fresh water), and that's what it takes for me to maintain weight. Do the math for yourself and please try to err on the side of caution - you know your metabolic needs. I cannot plan to live off stored body fat for very long, but perhaps you have hit upon a way to do that - I dunno; sounds risky to me.<br><br>"ultralight" in the Arctic? I hope you mean that in a relative sense! Are you planning to travel strictly with a pack, or is an ahkio or pulk something you are willing to consider? I would use one, given the choice. What over-snow method of travel are you considering - snowshoes or skis?<br><br>Hope this gives you some useful things to consider - please feel free to contact me directly or here if I can be of any assistance in your trip planning. I look forward to hearing all about it!<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

Tom,<br><br>Always a pleasure to read your posts....especially since the words "Mountain Warfare School" were mentioned last drill. Dangit!!! I hate the cold. Jampot isn't around anymore, btw. Deputy Chris ran him off (for good reason I feel certain).<br><br>Sorry to hear about your Dad. My wife said to tell you that he (and you, and the rest of your family) will be in her prayers. <br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Hi, Andy!<br><br>MWS - the one run by Fort Lewis cadre in Washington State? You'll have fun - it's wet there, tho. NWTC (Alaska) was part of what I did for a living, altho I was at Lewis also for a couple of years.<br><br>Thanks much for the prayers - all is well - Dad has been hauling his butt around slower and slower the last few years up in the high country and blaming it on age - he was wrong! A good doc figured it out BEFORE he had a heart attack and now he's overhauled. He already feels like a million bucks and I am confident that he's got a lot more trips in him now (probably run me into the dirt, LoL)<br><br>Oh - Chris was kind enough to fill me in on the miscreant. I hadn't gotten that far - do you guys have any idea how many posts there have been in the last week????<br><br>Tom

Tom, welcome back and glad to hear your father is doing well.

tom, glad to read your dads doing well. i pray he is around for a long time to come.

Tom, I am not all that great when it comes to foods stuffs.. I think there ends up being a lot of fats in the junk foods I take, and consider these to be in the carbs and the protiens.... I agree totaly if fats are a seperate food item.... I bring things like cheese and crackers and even peanut butter...... i am one of eating machines that eats anything I want and more that I really wanted sometimes, and don't seem to be able to gain an ounce ;-( I get tired of big guys kicking sand in my face a the beach too! But I get even in water over 8' deep just fine<br> ;-).<br> I miss baddly the Stoffer's frozed boilable bags meals. These were not exactly light weight, but were very handy to my style of cooking.. If you know of another source the info would be most welcome.... Incase you don't know what these are I will attempt to explain what and how....<br><br>I bought these Stoffer's boilable meals frozen... they came with rice, noodles, in one bag, and the other bag was swedish meat balls, steak and veggies, chicken and veggies, and that sort of thing.... Since it was no problem keeping these frozen they worked out well.<br><br>my technique was to leave as much trash at home as possible, and to boil the bags with water that I would drink later, or with the meal.<br><br>So I would fire up my rocket Sveya 123 and boil up a pot of water with the bags.... when all was hot I would pour the meat entree' on the noodle/rice in the other bag and eat directly out of the bag, pour the water into some drink and eat. After eatting there was no clean up, other than stuffing the bag in to one bag. After 10 days or so I would have usually 2 cocoa bags stuffed full for all the trash I had. I never washed a single dish....Every time I washed a dish in my life it rains..... So as rain is not a great idea at -40'F I prefered to never wash a dish ever...just ask my wife! ;-)<br><br>Like wise I think he needs a shelter, and at the site i provided there is a tent made just for going there..... "Top of the World" is the name of the tent... it is made from a "To order" Eygptian cotton, very strong, and very thin material that at least won't melt if it catches fire! I know of no synthetic tents that are even remotely safe with any flame around them..... perhaps there is, and I don't know about it... I have not personally seen the "Top of the World " tent, but have seen the cloth it is made from. I think it compares weight wise to any synthetic tent made for the same place, and you can have a stove in it.<br><br>it seems to me that if you have a syntheic tent you need some other tarp for just cooking, as the wind might need to be broke, and the weather in general might not lend it self to cooking totally expose.<br><br>Your right about me being an Eatern Mountaineer, and I only see real cold at about 4000'+ here, but I stay out for 10 days at a time that high..... And lived out in a wood stoved and with also a open fire tee pee. The stove saved coals over night.. it had 4' of pipe only....<br><br>I find water vapor a real pain in the tail...... it takes only a few days to wet out and freeze a down bag, so I use a vapor barrier from about 20'F and colder..... I made mine from junk, but recently bought a store bought one. All that needs be is that the cloth is about 100% water proof, and that you turn it out each day.... I found just how well this works, when on of my seams failed after being out awhile, and no knowing the seam failed..... I was in a gortex bivy, 0'F bag, with the vapor barrier, a ridge rest, and a therma rest. it was the 4th ot 5th day at never above -10'F when I noticed ice on my bag near my feet, and inside the bivy. The spot was about 124 square inches or so. I reversed the bag out side and hung it in trees at tree line to sublimate, and sewed up the seam again, as I was only 1/2 way thru that trip<br> And so it goes......... Mac

Mac - hey, the "Mountaineer" moniker was meant as a compliment. Hope you took it that way...<br><br>For winter time (only) use, we make our own stuff like the Stouffer's you describe - moose stroganoff was one of my favorites when I had the meat - anyway, we use seal-a-meal and made our own - much tastier than anything but scratchbuilt chow. I think we're on our third sealer now...<br><br>I am a huge fan of Egyptian (long staple) cotton for many uses (not CW clothes) - have not seen a tent or tarp made from it yet - that would be neat.<br><br>I, too, made and used a vapor barrier - from lightweight coated nylon. Still use it when conditions warrant. Stinky but effective...<br><br>Tom

LOL No ""Mountaineer" moniker " that was fine with me! I have been called far worse ;-)<br><br>I am a bit lost here "CW" cold weather? if so Me too!!! i use wool and down, systhectic wind buster stuff, never cotton but for the 2 layer "Duotech Long johns which is a layer of cotton and wool laminated to one layer of clothing... I don't care for poly longies much the stink won't rinsee rinsee rinsee and become Oh so clean yuk! but a nice tight water resitant wind proof 2 layer tent...tent with in a tent of cotton seems to me to be a great idea....I would get on for a sled pulling tent if I could afford it......<br><br>I hate the wind sometimes and have chased it yelling and swinging sticks too!<br><br>Once there was a wind when I was in the tee pee that sounded like a bunch of irish banshee's. it took off barn roofs all around where we were living. The next day I saw the papers, and alot of folks were rather miffed about it..... that was i think Jan 94, there was 4' of snow and we had only 1 pair of snow shoes. I made a plastic tee pee cover the day before as i heard this was coming on a battery operated radio. That was funny..... A friend gave me a trailer cover for a 18 wheeler. it was bright black one one side and bright white on the other, and folded up nice! I spread it out partly in a dirt road, and "Saw Right Off" that I needed more room! I began to stuff it in the back of a pick up truck, but it was a fight. near the end I ran and jumped, but air was trapped and I was spit out! I fell and my wife was laughing hard very hard, so hard I can't put it here, as I would be banned from the site, but you can picture it I bet! ;-) We went to a parking area that was for a summer camp and with snoe shoes on spread this out, and a string, tape measure, and knife cut a outter cover for the tee pee....<br><br>The vapor barrier I made was cloth from the dump literally. I found a roll of it and made a long gone ice boat sail and the vapor barrier I have now, the new one is for my wife's stink! Don't tell her I said that ok?<br><br>Got Moose? oh I wish I had Moose I can go see Moose about anytime I get the urge, but Ol' Johnny Law seems to have a wee problem with me harvesting any Ol' time I want...<br><br>I am no fan of cooking, and eat because I have too. If I could stop eatting I would. My wife cooks, but only because I won't, and she is no big fan of eatting either, but better than I am... I never had a seal a meal device, maybe I outta look into it, as that way I can make a mess at home, and not on a trail.<br><br>Something like doing dishes at -40'F just does not sit well with me....... Although this winter it has not gotten anywheres near -10'F yet, but there is still hope for a snap maybe.<br><br>About now I am looking forward to going sugaring with a friend. I have not the means here where I live, so I go beg off sugar from one of my buddies..... My problem is local trees are a tad to far to go for collection. About March 1st is tappin day here..... I think your the fellow from Vt? is that correct?<br><br>If so you know about sugarin.... At one point I asked (if you are that Vt. fellow) anyway how's things up on Mansfield, if you are, but I don't know if you did not reply, or I lost any reply, but I don't recall one.... <br><br>Anyway don't worry about calling me any names.... I laff them off even if they were intended to hurt (yours wasn't) .... I have been to hell and back, and words have become just that words....<br>Mac<br>

Tom, <br><br>Welcome back. Your father has our best wishes and prayers for a speedy recovery.<br><br>John

for a survival shelter just learn some primitive shelter types so if you get lost or stranded in the woods you can build one. or if your stranded in the middle of no where with your car, you can just stay in your car then