rossi for survival?

Hello everyone, i have a question about survival guns.would a rossi single shot rifle make a dependaple weapon?

Yes, but why do you want a single shot firearm? I own several but I'm just playing devils advocate and asking the question.

Depends on what you feed it and point it at.

There are a lot of terms that I could use to describe Rossi. Unreliable is not one of them. They might lack compaired to Remington, Winchester and Colt, but they are far from junk. Solid, budget minded work. It will go bang when the hammer drops on a live round, and they are accurate enough.

You must first ask yourself whta you are going to survive. Single shot shotguns in South America have greatly increased indigenous hunting takes of arboreal game compared to the former blowguns. A Rossi shotgun may not be a AR15 but that is a very real impact.

Magazine fed weapons are only needed against dangerious preditor's. That means Man and one or two other critters. Just in case you miss with your first shot. In a survival situation, the amount of ammunition you have is limited. Having only one shot makes a man real careful about his marksmanship.

I'm curious to know which "one or two" you are going to list. The most dangerous creature that most of us will deal with in a survival situation is a feral dog. I'm not talking about a stray animal that needs a home, I mean one that has gone wild. They don't fear humans, they kill for fun, and they come in packs. I know- I've had to deal with 3 packs in my area in the past ten years. Until they attack live stock, the state just isn't interested, and even then, you have to have a lot of proof.

I've also dealt with a number of rabid animals. I will say for a fact that a rabid animal can and will keep coming until it practically destroyed if what is left of it's poor, tortured mind says you are lunch.

This is a very interesting point to raise when the topic is Rossi, though. Other than thier revolvers, my books show no repeaters in thier current line up. Neither does thier website. Not even a double barrel.

I can vouch for the feral dogs. We had a pack come out of the woods while we were stopped snowmobiling one year. If we didn't have those heavy snowsuits on and snowmobiles to get away with we would have had a tough time fighting them off. They were fast and mean as could be. Makes me wish I had atleast a good revolver on me.

I've never bought into the whole "fewer rounds make you a better shot" mentality. I know some old school LEOs will say a revolver is a better weapon due to blowback, aim recovery and the fact that you have fewer shots to place which should make you a better shot.

I'm of the opinion that practice makes you a good shot and that any deficit perceived in a semi-auto can be trained out of the use of said weapon. I'm a pretty good shot with anything you put in my hands and have been since I was a kid. I couldn't care less if it's a revolver or a semi or a shotgun. What I DO know is that if I've practiced with a weapon, I can lay down a shot on about anything, even if it's moving. Now, given that I've obviously practiced with my weapon and I can hit what I want when I want, why would I limit myself to a small number of rounds?

Sure, there are those who might scatter/spray, but that's just crap training and they lean on volume as a crutch. While I tend to agree that in a survival situation that ammo might be scarce, it doesn't mean that I'd want a one shot weapon. Ever. Seriously, what's the point? If anyone can make a reasonable argument, I'd love to hear it. Especially in a survival situation... If you are already carrying the weight of a weapon, why not carry some rounds to make it worth it's weight? Should I carry my camp stove with 10cc of fuel?

And I can think of a lot of animals, 0, 2 and 4 legged varieties, which make me think an accurate firearm would be a good thing to have. The more ammo the merrier.

With this site all about being equipped, I just can't see how a single shot anything could be as beneficial as a multi-shot equivalent. A shot can go wide with a single shot firearm just as easily as a multi, but I know I can get off another round in a semi-auto a hell of a lot faster than reloading a single. Plus a magazine is a more convenient place to locate your small quota of ammo than in a special pouch or loose in a pocket.

I was thinking any pack animal, like lion, wolves, feral dogs, baboons etc. I think that you choose a rifle according to the threat. If you are limited to a single shot weapon, have a careful think about ease of reloading. (Rolling block?).

What I meant was that only having one shot forces you to get in as close as possible and make that shot count. I would also prefer a revolver to a semi-automatic pistol because they are easier to maintain in the field, and if you have a misfire you just pull the trigger again. At the end of the day, any weapon in any caliber beats no weapon at all.

Yes for hunting, although in that style and price range the NEF/H&R rifles are better made and perhaps "more reliable". A good lever action rifle in any centerfire caliber from 357 on up would be a bit more versitile. I think a 30-30 Marlin carbine would probably be a great choice in North America.

Tom

It would not be my first choice now, but if I were on a budget I would not hesitate to get one. My first gun was also a single shot of sorts: a Savage Model 24 rifle/shotgun combo. It was considered a "budget gun" at the time but now they go for $400-$500. I still have mine. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

True enough - I'd take a single shot over no shot!

I guess my point was that forcing someone to make a great shot in a survival situation might be counterproductive. Sure, it means that they don't waste ammo, but what if the hands or cold, or the eye is blurred or bloodied or the hand is broken? I can think of a lot of reasons why it would be a bad idea to have a single shot weapon that I would need to reload. But in a survival situation, it's the reasons I can't think of that make me believe a single shot gun has no place in my survival gear. Having a pre-loaded magazine could save my bacon someday. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here is my take...

A firearm can serve two possible purposes: protection and food gathering.

The prime key of a defensive firearm is that it is ready when you need it. This means having it on you or nearby. To me, a handgun on the hip would be ideal for this. It can be plenty accurate up to 25 yards with a little training, and passable at 50 yards with more training. If something is more than 50 yards away, it can't hurt you (assuming threats with 4 legs).

For putting food on the table, a single-shot would be fine with me. If you know what you are doing then one shot should be all that you need. A single-shot will also be more reliable, simpler to maintain, and lighter. It is also cheaper, so you could get two -- one for the truck and one for the BOB, or one to practice with and one for the BOB.

Plus, all it took was one shot for Jed to discover the oil on his property and move to Beverly Hills. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Of course, if you are limiting yourself to one firearm only, I would want something that can fire a 2nd shot fairly rapidly.

Ok, to come clean, I was trained to shoot by the British Army. My personal weapon was a 7.62mm Nato (semi-automatic, no fully automatic) L1A1 SLR. 20 round magazine. Normal carry load of 5 magazine's. That's 100 rounds of ammo. We were always told that that was all the ammo you would get for a battle. So make every round count. I have to say that with one of them in my hands, no thing, neither man nor mob or beast worries me. What does worry me is the spray and pray portrayed by Hollywood. Hence my preferance for single shot weapons. However, I take your point. What magazine capacity would you suggest? 5 rounds with a 10 or 20 round magazine(s) in the bag?

Completely depends on the weapon, I think Leigh.

I was ignoring something along the lines of a sniper rifle, and thinking of survival. I'm much more familiar with handguns than I am with rifles, but I think a full high cap clip for your weapon (or a full tube if it's built in like a shotgun), plus at least another clip or 2. If your weapon doesn't use a clip, then a bandolier is probably a decent option, but they do make so many styles of pouch, you could toss the ammo in one that fits it well.

I look at Hollywood for what it is. Entertainment. It's a lot more entertaining to hear a few hundred rounds buzz off and spray the area (with hardly any hits usually) than one shot. The exception maybe being the sniper movies. I pick weapons based on my own personal experience and knowledge. If some guy wants a fully auto AR15 or AK47 style weapon in a survival situation (at least not in a war zone!) then more power to him. I'll stick with a few well placed rounds and carry less equipment.

Anyway, I think at a bare minimum a dozen rounds for any given weapon is a nice start. I'd say depending on weight and mag capacity, maybe 45 rounds. That should suffice for any relatively minor survival situation as defense and hunting, but again, I'm just throwing numbers up in the air - it depends on the weapon, the situations and animals you might encounter, how effective the round is and how long you might be in said situation.

My thinking has always tended towards: Revolver, 5 rounds in the gun. 2 speed loaders, 30-36 rounds of loose. Rifle, single shot, 40 rounds. Semi-automatic, one 5 round magazine, one ten round magazine, two 20 round magazines. Plus 20 to 40 rounds loose or any combination there of. If it's an urban situation like the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina: Semi-automatic, not less than 4, 20 round, magazines plus as much additional ammunition as I can waddle along under.

All true, and I agree 100%... BUT... a single shot is a whole lot cheaper for someone on a budget... AND... a whole lot easier to repair in the field if you don't happen to have a spare parts kit with you (example; I've seen a LOT of broken firing pins in old single shot 12 guages replaced with filed down nails... I wouldn't want to try that with my 870 without my tools and the proper parts). Other than those two points, I'd have to agree with every word you said <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

If it's urban survival, that's a whole other ball-game. I'll be carrying handgun with at least 4 hi-cap clips (12-15 round depending on caliber), .308 rifle with at least 3 20 round clips, and a full loaded short barrel SG with a bandolier of another 25 rounds. Plus probably a backup handgun in same caliber as first. Like you, I'll probably be carrying more ammo than that, but that's what's readily available. Never been much of a revolver fan, so everything is semi-auto. Leaning toward SS, HK, and Beretta. I like expensive guns. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and I'll be packing a prayer that I never have to use any of the above.

Okay, Field Expedience and Budgetary concerns may impact your choice. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for your opinions! The information was very useful. Being married with two small children I'am on a tight budget. Are there any suggestions for a multifire rifle that is resonably priced and could take care of a large predator such as a black bear or mountain lion. Thank you all again! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have lots of guns, but my "survival rifle" is an old Remington model 721 chambered in 30-06. Yeah it's not a 300 win mag but a well placed shot will stop almost anything you want and take game without slaughtering it. I suggest you go to you're local gun SHOPS. Check them all out because all gun dealers are not created equal, but tell them what you are looking for and how you intend to use the rifle. Many gun shops take guns in on consignment and there are bargains to be found. If you know anyone that is a gun enthusist, take them with you and don't get pressured into buying anything. If a salesman (used loosely) recommends a gun, take down the make and model and do a little research, if nothing else ask here.

It's a serious investment work the research.

Check out a gov't surplus M1 Garand.

Couldn't agree more. There are also a large number of dealers who sell via classifieds online ( http://www.gunsamerica.com/ ) so you can get a pretty good idea if you are getting a decent price.

Don't be afraid to haggle a bit, on both new and used. Though you'll probably have better luck negotiating on used. Find a dealer who is very helpful, not pushy, and who doesn't make you feel like you are an idiot. Tell them that you are looking for a local dealer, that you need to research it carefully as it's a large budget item. Tell him your price range, what you need it for, and what you would like to see. Then, if you can wait, you could also ask him/her to keep the peepers open for hardware that fits your bill and budget. Make sure that he knows you'll be coming back for ammo, accessories, and possibly future guns.

One other thing, go to a local gun show. You can meet a lot of gun dealers quickly and get a general feel for who you would like to deal with pretty quickly. Don't be bowled over by the lowest price tag. Those are quite often movable and the lowest priced stall might not be the best in service.

completely agree

Assuming we are talking centerfire and not a .22, and you are looking at the best value....

The SKS. Reasonably accurate, fairly powerful, ammo is pretty easy to find, and it is Russian grunt tough. Not horribly priced, the market fluctuates depending on what's been suplused recently. I'm just not sure if you can get one in Mass.

Similiar in concept would be the Mini-30 from Ruger. Same cartridge, but it has a detachable box mag (always nice when kids are around) and more accurate, but sometimes more expensive.

In a manual repeater, Savage and Ruger both make top flight bolt actions on a budget. You don't need more than a .308 or .30-06 in southern New England, you don't have moose, but you do want something a little more oomphy than .223. The 7.62x39mm Ruger M77 would be a good choice, as would the M77 or one of the Savages in .243, if you aren't wanting the full recoil of the .308 or .30-06.

Marlin makes good lever actions if that is more your style. In 30-30 or .44 Mag, they will be fine for most anything you are likely to run into. .357 will be a little more forgiving, and you get the added advantage of being able to digest .38 with equal ease, so ammo is dirt common, but it's pretty marginal for deer.

Any of those will deal with a black bear, even if you have to hit it a few times with some of the smaller calibers mentioned.. As for a catamount, have there been any sightings in Mass yet? I wasn't aware of any south of US Route 4 in VT/NH.

I have mixed feelings on telescopic sights. If you go with one, quick release mounts and keep the iron sights on. A sling is a must have, even if it's just a shoulder sling and not a shooter's sling. If you don't know the difference, don't worry, the shoulder sling will be fine. A cleaning kit, a carrying/storage case that locks (again, little fingers) and a military ammo can with a lock kit to store the ammo in. That and a stock of ammunition that shoots well and will do what you want it to in terms of terminal performance, and you'll be good to go.

The one thing I will caution against: The M-1 Carbine. I'm going to draw fire for saying that, but let me also add I own one. They are light, handy, and with expanding ammo, fine for self and home defense. But they suck for hunting, and the ammo gets harder and harder to find every year. Even with the fastest opening hollow points I can find, it's not enough against catamount or bear, and just as marginal as the .357 for deer. Great gun, just not very good for survival.

The M-1 Garand that was mentioned, on the other hand, is hard to go wrong with if you don't mind the investment.

Or a double barrel. Not much more, but it's something. That's why anything I take with me is a repeater, except for a stubby (legal length!) shotgun to back up a rifle.

*mumbling around foot*
Leigh, sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Good advice but the 7.62X39 is getting harder to find. You can get Wolf brand ammo but it's the dirttiest ammo I've found, not good for a gas operated weapon. I'm fine with telescopic scopes as long a poeple dont go ape S***, I have a 6 power 38MM and it's more than fine. I mean you can get a 4-10X50 and when you try to focus the scope in a hurry you spend too much time fumbling around. I prefer a fixed power scope of moderate magnification.

Huh. Still pretty easy to find around here. *shrugs*

Those are $550 for a heavily-used model -- and even then you cannot get them for a few months. http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm#Service For that money, you have a lot of other options.

Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to have an M1. The Springfield SOCOM looks pretty nice. But, unless you know some bargain-hunting tips that I don't (which may be possible), those are NOT for a person on a budget.

The original poster asked about a single-shot rifle that (if memory serves me correctly) goes for well under $200.

Also, note to Feral. If you are thinking about getting food, just go for the Rossi. You can trade up later when you have more money. For defensive use, as others have stated, you should be able to get an SKS for around $200 that has never been fired. You will need to spend hours cleaning out the cosmoline and polishing the wood -- but to some people that is fun. Those things also simply cannot take a scope unless you buy an expensive mount or are willing to cut the wood (ruining the collector value). Cheap scope mounts, the ones that replace the top cover, are simply junk as they will shift around after each shot. But an SKS is affordable, and they are fun to shoot. Just check for the legality in your area. Yugoslavian SKSs have been common lately. They have a bayonet and grenade launcher, which may be illegal in your area. But if you "modify" the barrel so that the launcher and bayonet can never be attached again, you should be OK. But I think that there are some states that outlaw the "evil" top gas tube.

Field Grade and Rack Grade are more than acceptable. Their condition is far better than listed. Also, this is for survival use, not Camp Perry.

http://www.hr1871.com/

http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/nef.html - ignore the NEF link; H&R makes these now anyway,

Frequently on sale in my area for $200 or less, and H&R will inexpensively fit additional barrels to them.

The rifled-barrel shotguns are very accurate. I have read that the rifles are more than accurate enough.

The Rossi's that we have used have been fine. Others (at least one poster here) have NOT had good experiences with the Rossi. You know the nightmare when you pull the trigger and all you get is a "click"?

I don't have much hunting experience, but squirrel hunting might make a good case for a semi-auto, at least for a .22. The way my Dad tells it, when he was squirrel hunting as a kid you sit still in the woods untill they come out, then take your shot. If you don't move they can't figure out where the shot came from. After a few minutes they will come out again and you can shoot another. Repeat... But if you move they locate you and stay away for good. That style of hunting is only possible with a semi-auto, and might make the difference between a snack and a meal in a survival situation. Can other hunters confirm?

Thanks,
Steve

If you're gun saavvy, or have a friend who is, check the used market for anything available in 30-30 and up, caliber-wise. If you're not comfortable looking at used guns, find a reputable dealer, and lay it out to him, you're looking for an economical hunting/defense piece... you'd be surprised at just how helpful that smiling guy (or girl) behind the counter can be <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. One tip though, if you're looking to get (good) advice, stay away from large chainstores... you want a gun? Find a GUN Dealer... not somebody who was working automotive last week <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

My AR15 is easy to convert to a single shot....I only load one round into the magazine. I haven't figured out how convert most single shot rifles to semi-auto yet!

For the non-gun types that want a gun, learn how to shoot with Ruger 10/22 and a Ruger Mk III, then get a 30-30 lever action, 870 Remington shotgun, or a 4" S&W .357 revolver.

HUHH???

Over here in OZ semis are banned so we have no choice but to put up with a single shot, for survival or any other purpose. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Thankfully they still allow (small) magazines though! We are also not allowed to carry our ammunition with or in our guns. So there goes quick self defence, (that is from all but the two legged kind) you can't use a gun as self defence against a person or they throw the key away.

You have my condolences... no offense meant, but I hope we never catch up to that level of civilization here in the US.

Troy

your sympathies are appreciated

Handi rifle single shot in 30-30 7 lbs
Handi rifle with 12 gauge barrel 5.5 lbs
Garand 11 lbs

Remember that classic dangerous game rifles were double barrel,
though many use bolt actions now due to cost.
Few use semi's, save for the occasional brown bear hunter.
A single shot should do well for many survival uses.

Handi rifles can switch barrels in a couple of minutes.
Run out of ruski ammo, trade barrels and shoot 223 ,30-06,
410, 357 etc.

Loaded for Bear, take a 35 Whelen barrel. Want to practice with the same weapon, use a 223 barrel and save money and reduce flinching.

Very easy to clean, you just take off the barrel.
Price is right-$200, keep one in each car. They break down to
2' or so.

Not what I would want in Iraq, but would be plenty happy with
one in say the backcountry of Canada.

I use one for deer and turkeys
when approaches are by mountain bike. I like the light weight, short
length, and low cost in case of crashes.

Good points, all <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

Use what gives you options. Carry a repeater. You have multiple shots if the situation calls for it. If you want 1 shot, drop the magazine & load 1 round manually. I would hate to try to reload a single shot rifle after killing 1 dog of the feral pack while the rest are trying to kill me.

Thats where practice comes in. I have seen a police officer load and shoot
a single shot shotgun as fast as his colleagues with a pump.

The feral dogs are a particular problem. In many respects they are like an enraged mob. If you cannot be elsewhere fast, you have to overwelm them with weight of fire. There is a rule in small unit actions - which is what you are effectively dealing with here - that goes: He who gets there first, with the most, wins. That's one of the few situations in which I would prefer a semi-automatic rifle. For anything else the Rossi is just fine.

Personally, If I was buying a .22 rifle for outdoor use I would pick up a Ruger 10/22. The reason being, parts are everywhere and a large amount of people know how to work on them and use them. It's like the Chevy 350 of the rimfire world. They arn't that expensive either, you can buy one with a synthetic stock for less than $300 brand new.

For ferals, I want something nice and potent. Like a flamethrower.

personally, I'd learn to find edible plants etc...learn to hunt, then in your pack you can carry a real gun, plenty of ammo, water purifiers, etc. instead of food. Things you can't really replace in the wild anymore.
don't forget to pack seeds, you never know, you might be missing for a while.
I'll be taking an AR, with AP rounds, I can easily take down elk and grizzly

Or maybe an M-60???

Troy

OUTside thirty yards, you'll take down a grizzly with an AR... inside thirty yards, you'll still feel teeth & claws... good luck with that <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Make mine a 12 ga. pump, no sport plug, alternating buck & slugs for ol' Griz.

Troy

Maybe if that AR is 308. Here is an interesting article on the 22 caliber
centerfires for deer hunting.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/

Maybe... bad habit of mine, somebody says AR, and I immediately assume they're talking about Mattel's rifle, not auto-rifles in general.
Nice article, but thats for sportsmen pushing the envelope...testing their skills and abilities. Getting back to the griz showdown, if it's ANY AR, then make it a Barret semi-auto .50, and I might be comfortable giving it a shot (or five) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

Greets to you all!

I would like to weigh in with my 2 cents worth if I may.
This is my opion only and by no means should be considered the gospel truth. I wrote this for another group I frequent but I would like to share with you. I hope that it might help someone.

The Survival Arsenal

What you choose to fill your arsenal is largely dependent on your whole philosophy of what you are preparing for. Here are some possible scenarios:

1) Pandemic
2) Natural Disasters
3) Economic Instability/Social Breakdown
4) Martial Law/Civilian Disarmament
5) Civil War
6) UN/NWO Takeover
7) World War (Nuclear or Biological)

Other factors that could influence your choices are as follows:
1. What can you afford?
2. Where do you live? Are you planning on bugging out or hunkering down?
3. How old are your children? Can they competently shoot a .22lr? How about a larger caliber?
4. Do you plan on hunting for sustenance?
5. How does your family perceive your preparations? Are they behind you 100% or consider you eccentric? This will affect how well they will train/prepare for TSHTF.

Rifles:

The 1 Gun Scenario:
If you can only afford one gun, make it a single shot, over/under style. Try to get .22 LR over 12 GA. Other gauges (20, .410) are acceptable as long as you can stock enough ammo for it to last the life of the gun. The ammo is common enough for both as to probably be available in almost anyplace you might be.
Role:
Primary - Hunting small/large game animals
Secondary - Home Defense against Intruders

Your geographic location will have an effect on what make the best arsenal, so I will break this down into Rural and Urban choices.

RURAL
Let’s examine what I consider to be the basic survival arsenal for a rural area:

Basic (Budget)
1) Shotgun, 12 Gauge
Role:
Primary - Hunting small/large game animals
Secondary - Home Defense against Intruders

2) Large Bore (Bolt/Lever Action) Rifle, Legal Hunting Caliber
Role:
Primary - Hunting large game animals
Secondary - Sniping/Home defense

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber, Bolt Action
Role:
Primary - Hunting small game animals
Secondary - Home defense

This selection provides a diversity of calibers that each compliment the other.

The shotgun is capable of taking deer and bear, as well as vehicles when using slugs. With #6 shot, it will be adequate at close range for home defense without too much risk of over penetration. A pump shotgun is 1st choice, followed by the double barrel and then the single shot.

My recommendations are Mossberg pump (500/590/etc...) and the Remington 870. There are lots of choices for accessories for these rifles
The large bore rifle should be a common, preferably military cartridge. The Mosin-Nagant 91/30 is a great value for the cost and is a good long distance and hunting round. They cost around $90 at chain sporting good stores (Big 5 in my area) and 440 rds. of 7.62x54R 147-grain FMJ Ammo is $49.97 from the Sportsman’s Guide http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=260528 Stay away from the 200 grain surplus ammo that is available as it may be designed for machineguns and therefore have too high of pressure for your rifle!
The M38 is a good choice also but has a pretty good muzzle blast. The same holds true with the M44. These rifles have been arsenal reconditioned and are in pretty fair shape. The Finnish m/39 Mosin-Nagant is reputed to be a better quality rifle, but as such it is harder to get and more expensive.

The 8mm Mauser would be my 2nd choice for around $120; 380 rds. of 8 mm 154-grain FMJ is $32.97 http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=217693 The condition of these is not as good as the Mosin-Nagant, but is acceptable for the price.
The Mauser can be re-barreled to .308/7.62x51and makes a nice rifle as such. Re-barreling though may be beyond the reach of some, lacking skill to do it themselves or income to pay to have this work done. If that is the case, they are better off to invest in Mil-surp ammo than spend the extra dough re-barreling. There are other bolt actions rifles available, but probably pricier than the Yugo m24/47 Mausers hitting the Surplus market currently. Surplus .308 is also more expensive than the other calibers mentioned above. Some of the Indian surplus ammo also has problems so avoid it if you go this route.
Since the ammo is fairly inexpensive for these you should be able to stockpile plenty and still afford to practice with your rifle. It must be noted that the ammo I have mentioned above is for the most part Corrosive Primed and your weapons should be cleaned soon after firing it.
Visit Surplusrifle.com and read up on the available Mil-Surp rifles and their ammo.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/index.asp

Other non-military rifles in common calibers are available, but will cost more to purchase and buy spare parts for. Unless you are flush with cash, stay away from exotic calibers as ammo for these will become hard to find. The .243, .270 and 7mm are popular hunting cartridges, but unless you are into reloading, and have lots of supplies, the ammo cost to support these rifles long term is prohibitive. They may however have a place in a limited Sniping role.
Another choice is a lever action Marlin 336 or Winchester mdl 94 in .30-30. It is a common enough caliber and it is more than adequate for harvesting deer. Lever actions are available in other calibers but I wouldn't recommend them as a primary weapon for survival.

The .22 LR is available in so many different models and brands that it could fill a whole book. I will only mention those here that I believe meet the requirements. The cheapest model worth purchasing would be a magazine fed bolt action. No Single Shots.

So why not an assault rifle?
Because the Assault rifle is too costly for the basic budget.
Most assault rifles come in .223 caliber.
The .223 is not legal to hunt with in most states.
The effective range is less than a battle rifle
The cost is generally more than a Mil-surp battle rifle.
The penetration of the .223 is less than a battle rifle.
Even the 7.62x39 is not as effective as the major military calibers for battle rifles
Hunting with an Evil Black Rifle will draw possible un-wanted attention to you and your family.

The assault rifle has its place, just not in the basic arsenal. Read further on to find where AR's fit in.

A basic budget Arsenal would be the 22 LR, Mossberg 590 and the Mosin-Nagant bolt action. This arsenal can be assembled with some ammo for under $1000 dollars. It is also capable of filling all hunting roles from squirrels to Elk. Also, it is adequate for home defense, up to a point.

Once you have established the basic arsenal, you might wish to expand it as your finances allow. Don't over buy if you can't afford to stock the ammo for it. Your money would be better spent on food, spare parts and other gear. Few things are more useless than a gun without ammo. It just becomes an awkward club. Spare parts are a must! Learn how to install them.

In addition to the above choices:
Advanced (Budget)

1) Military Surplus Semi-Auto Battle Rifle
Role:
Primary - Home defense
Secondary - Hunting game animals

2) Semi-Auto Assault Rifle
Role:
Primary - Home defense

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber, Semi-Auto
Role:
Primary - Hunting small game animals
Secondary - Home defense

There are many choices here but only 2 are actual Mil-Surp. The rest are re-assembled parts from de-milled selective fire military rifles with new Semi-Auto recievers. And since we are talking low budget, these 2 fit the bill. They are the M1 Garand and the SKS.
Now the question. Why the SKS?
1. Low recoil.
2. Ballistics are comparable to the .30-30.
3. Low cost - about $200.00, less on sale or possibly at gun shows.
4. They are designed for people of smaller stature. (wife, children)
5. They are very reliable with a simple design to maintain.
6. There are lots of accessories for them.
7. Adequate firepower. Better penetration than smaller calibers.
8. Ammo is fairly cheap and is readily available. (for now)
9. It can also somewhat fill the role of the assault rifle due to its magazine size and caliber.
10. It is legal to hunt with using a 5 rnd mag.
11. It is capable of taking deer sized game.

I would suggest for adults 1 ea. SKS's with the standard 10 rnd magazines with a minimum of 1000 rnds stored. Average combat load for the SKS is 180 to 240 rnds with other gear. Why the 10 rnd magazine? Less chance of malfunction than with the larger capacity magazines. I feel that the ones that I have owned were of questionable quality and I would not risk my life with them. If you have children they can be outfitted with an SKS or .22 LR., depending on their stature and age. Say from 6 to 12 years a .22 LR. From 13 up, arm them with an SKS. Give them what they are comfortable with shooting. An alternative to the SKS or .22 LR for kids would be a carbine in 9mm, .45 ACP or .30 carbine. Another possibility would be lever action carbines in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. I believe that you can shoot .38 Special in one .44 Special in the other. These cartridges should be manageable by some children.

Next I would look at the M1 Garand from the CMP. (Civilian Marksmanship Program) http://www.civilianmarksmanshipprogram.com/Services/ Their prices are getting higher all the time and are reaching the point where you are almost better purchasing a new one from either Fulton or Springfield Armory’s.
Surplus ammo is still fairly low priced and can be found in the 8 rnd en-bloc clips. 280 rds of .30-06 150-gr. FMJ with ammo can for $49.97. Includes 8 rnd en-bloc clips. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=259531

The Garand is much heavier than the SKS as is the case with its ammo, so it is primarily a weapon for adults. It also has better penetrating power and will allow you to shoot thru some types of cover. It has a longer range than the SKS also. It is also a better made, if not a little more complex weapon.

The assault rifle is a much debated weapon with many saying it is not necessary and others that it is. If you can afford one and the ammo/magazines/spare parts for it, get one. They are hard to beat for perimeter defense against multiple targets at shorter ranges, up to 100 yards. If you are rushed by 20 hungry PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. intent on looting your home, the Garand and SKS might not be enough firepower.

The AK-47 is a better penetrator than the .223 and shares the same ammo as the SKS. The Mini-14 comes in 2 Military calibers: the .223 and 7.62x39. There is some debate as to whether it will hold up under combat situations but since you are using for defensive purposes this shouldn't be an issue. I hope. The AK-47 is the least expensive of the two rifles.
Some of the common assault rifles are the AR-15 family and other more costly guns such as the Galil, Valmet, Steyr AUG, AR-180 and HK-93. I may have missed some but it doesn't really matter since they are beyond the cost limitations of a basic budget.

Everyone should be taught basic gun handling and marksmanship with the .22 LR to become proficient with a rifle.
.22 LR = no flinching from recoil/muzzle blast as well as low cost practice.
Then move up in caliber to your main rifle.

For the .22 LR, next up would be the tubular magazine feed. The Marlin Glennfield model 60 is one such gun that comes to mind since I am familiar with it (my 1st Gun). I have never had any experience with the Remington Nylon 66/77 but have heard good things of them.

Last would be the best of the .22 LR's, the Ruger 10/22. Make yourself afford it.

URBAN
The roles of weapons are basically reversed in an urban environment from hunting to home defense.
Let’s examine what I consider to be the basic survival arsenal for an urban area. The choices of weapons are quite broad:

Basic (Budget)
1) Shotgun, 12 Gauge
Role:
Primary - Home Defense against Intruders
Secondary - Hunting small/large game animals

2) Large Bore Rifle, Legal Hunting Caliber, Semi-Auto
Role:
Primary - Sniping/Home defense
Secondary - Hunting large game animals

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber
Role:
Primary - Home defense/Feral Dogs
Secondary - Hunting small game animals

With the exception of the large bore Semi-Auto, the choices for shotgun and .22 LR in the Basic category remain the same as in a rural environment.

Let’s look at suitable large bores. First, what do I consider a large bore? Anything .30 caliber or larger in a Rifle cartridge. If you live in an area that is largely urban or suburban and plan on staying there, I would suggest a Semi-Automatic with a magazine of at least 10 rounds. This would be good for self defense during a riot or other civil disorder/natural disaster.

I recommend the SKS once again. It is hard to beat this inexpensive semi-auto without spending lots more money.

Most of the HK's on the market now are actually rebuilt G3's using newly stamped sheet metal receivers. These can be had for a reasonable price. An original HK-91 will set you back a tidy sum though. 20 rnd magazines can be had for as little as $2.00 each in good condition. Stock up.

The Cetme's are also a fair value, but there have been some quality issues with the various receivers available.
They will for the most part accept the HK-91/G3's magazines, having the same heritage.

The Chinese made M1A (Polytech) has one of the best receivers ever made, however the rest of the parts are questionable. Fulton Armory will rebuild these with Original GI parts to a better than new condition.

When I first got into survival the cadillac of all firearms (at the time) was the FN-FAL. If I remember correctly, they were going for about $1200 new then (early 80's). New and rebuilt ones are available but are still expensive. DSA make some nice ones. I wouldn't call these “budget” though.

Any of these are suitable for your large bore choice as long as they are dependable.
So why not a Bolt action for urban areas? You may need to use your Large bore for defense against crowds of looters or gangs intent on doing you harm and the greater firepower of a semi-auto with detachable magazines may be needed.

If you are still in the urban environment WTSHTF, you will probably need the firearms in the advanced section just to get out.

Advanced (still Budget)
1) Assault Rifle
Role:
Primary - Defense
Secondary - Hunting small/large game animals

2) Carbine
Role:
Primary - Defense

3) Combat Shotgun
Role:
Primary - Defense

Note: Avoid firefights at all costs. The odds are you or some of your family will die as they are not trained for Urban combat.

The Mini-14 and AK-47 rifles in caliber 7.62x39mm are adequate for both defense and hunting (with the addition of quality optics).

For strictly firepower, the AK-47 can't be beat, followed by the AR-15 family. Dollar wise, you will get more bang for your buck with the AK since it is priced well below the AR-15 family of weapons. You can get ammo, magazines, gear and gun for the price of 1 AR-15. The AR-15 has the edge over the AK in weight and accuracy, as you can carry considerably more .223 than 7.62x39. The quality of manufacture is better also.

In considering carbines, their use is best left to those who are unable to carry heavier weapons and ammo and are not accurate enough with handguns. Some carbines to consider are the Keltec SUB-2000 in 9mm & 40 S&W, Hi-Point Firearms carbines in 9mm & 40 S&W, The Marlin Camp Carbines Models 9 (9mm) and 45 (.45 ACP), the Ruger Police Carbine in 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W and the Beretta Cx4/Px4 Storm in 9mmx 19 and 9mmx21 IMI, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. These range in prices from affordable to expensive and you will get what you pay for in these. There are others out there. If a carbine suits you, look around you'll find what is best for you.

Another choice is the .30 Cal M1 Carbine. Ammo for this rifle is no longer cheap and it is basically a pistol caliber in performance. Many people love it and you may still find it around for a reasonable price. Lots of different capacity magazines are available for it too.

Any other guns are acceptable, as long as you can stock the ammo and spare parts for them. If you are part of Preparedness Group or a Para-Military organization you will want to standardize your choices to maintain compatibility within your group.

So what is a Combat shotgun?
It can be either a Mossberg 500/590 or an Remington 870 with an 18” to 20” barrel and a 7 or 8 shot magazine. It can have a folding stock as well as a pistol grip front and rear. Most come with a heat shield on the barrel that has Ghost Ring sights. You can deck them out with Sidesaddle ammo holders and under barrel flashlights/laser sights. There is even now a 10 shot drum magazine and 6 shot box magazine available from Knoxx Industries. These are only for the Mossberg line currently.

Another is the Saiga-12 self-loading smooth bore shotgun manufactured by IZHMASH of Russia. It is built on the AK-47 action, comes with 12-ga. smooth bored barrel and the chamber which accepts ammo equipped with shot or slugs including "Magnum" cartridges with 2-3/4" and 3" cartridge case. It is magazine fed. Since I do not have any experience with it yet I find it hard to say it is a good choice, but it is available. Some older military weapons are the Winchester Model 1897 and the Winchester Model 12 as well as the Ithaca Model 37. These are not readily found in the civilian gun market so I will just mention them in passing.

The combat shotgun is good for clearing rooms and hallways of intruders allowing you to get out of a bad situation in a hurry. You can put a lot of hits on multiple targets with this weapon. The biggest drawback to a combat shotgun is the weight of the ammo you must carry to have a fighting chance against adversaries. If you are using a combat shotgun you should have someone backing you up with either an assault rifle or a battle rifle. Even with slugs, these are not a long range weapon.

Handguns:
This is a very personal choice and what works for one may not for another. At the very minimum I would recommend a .22 LR revolver for your emergency pack along with 500 rnds of ammo. That’s 500 potential meals.
Buy and shoot what you are comfortable with. If you are afraid of the recoil, you will have a hard time hitting what you are shooting at. Before you buy, go to a shooting range that rents handguns and try out several. This is less expensive than buying a .44 mag only to find out you need a .38 special.

Magazines:
Buy at least 15 each 30-rnd for each Assault Rifle, and an extra 5 for replacements. For Battle Rifles, purchase 15 each 20-rnd mags with 6 extra. The Garand uses the 8 rnd clip, so buy 100 each. They are much easier to loose than a standard magazine. Handgun magazines should be 6 to 10 each depending on capacity and price. Mil-Surp battle rifles use stripper clips, and while some ammo comes on it most does not. 240 rounds on 5 round clips is 48 stripper clips.
Purchase an even hundred. The SKS stripper clips hold 10 rounds so 240 rounds would require 24 clips. Since these are still fairly cheap, get a hundred of them also.

Ammunition:
Ok, the minimum for the .22 LR is 5000 rnds (about $100)
For the shotgun, 1000 rnds with various loads
For the battle/hunting rifle no less than 2000rnds FMJ and 500 rnds JSP.
Less than this will leave you using the rifle for a club at a later date.
Most of your money spent will be for the hunting and shotgun loads. The .22 LR will be used more than any other gun in foraging small game animals and disposing of pests.

I recommend 10,000 rounds per .22 LR caliber Rifle and 2,500 rounds per .22 LR handgun. This caliber is not reloadable and in a survival scenario it may not be available anywhere except your own stash. Also makes a good barter currency. WARNING: Only barter ammo with those you know and trust as it may be used against you!

For shotguns, I suggest 2500 rounds of various loads; Slugs for hunting and vehicle disabling, Buckshot for Hunting and Combat, #4 & #6 for hunting and home defense. Stockpile more if this is your only/primary weapon.

Assault type rifles can chew up ammo fast, so I recommend of 5000 rounds.
Battle/Hunting Rifles can fall into the same category as above, so plan on 5000 rnds, again with various loads
(lets say 3500rnds FMJ and 1500 various grain JSP)
Bolt Action/Lever Action Rifles should be at least 3000 rnds, but plan on paying a bundle for any non-military caliber that you choose.

Handguns should stock 2000 rnds per gun.

Amounts will vary depending on what you envision coming down the road. Plan for the worst, multiply that by 5 and you may be close.
Store your ammo in ammo cans if it is not stored in some type of container other than cardboard. It makes it easier to transport as well as better protected from environmental conditions.

As always, these are my opinions and are just guidelines for you to help build your own Survival Arsenal. Weapon selection is a choice that must be made with patience and lots of thought. Don’t just rush out and buy something based on someone else’s experience. Plan well now, you won't be able to do it WTSHTF and you will live or die with your choice.

Wow MrB. That is quite a good read, and some great recomendations.

But...

I have one STRONG caution.

You mention the SKS with a 10-round magazine. Let me just say that a LOT of the most common SKSs on the market now are from Yugoslavia -- that is what I own. Those have the bayonet and grenade-launcher attached. These are big "no-no's" from a legal standpoint. This SKS is legal because is is a "curio & relic." But, if you modify the rifle, it looses its "C&R" status, and you can get in legal trouble for the "evil" features.

So, the point here is that if you have an SKS, if you change the furniture or change the magazine, you had BETTER remove the bayonet and launcher. The barrel will still be threaded, so you had also better add a muzzle brake and WELD it to the barrel, lest you find yourself in a cell with Bubba.

Note that the SKSs from other countries most likely will not have these features, but the Yugoslavian ones do.

As a side rant, these rules are stupid. If a guy is pointing a rifle at me, would I feel better knowing that he can't stab me with a bayonet as well as shoot me? Probably not. That law makes no sense. A grenade launcher is completely useless since it is impossible to get live grenades for the thing (at least for me). So that part of the law also is really useless. I got the Yugo SKS simply because of it's unbeatable price - $200 for a rifle that had never even been fired.

Also, I have not tried (for the legal reasons), but I hear that detachable magazines are very bad for the reliability of the SKS. So those are not recommended. As far ashunting, I hear that if you put a Lego 2x3 brick in the bottom of the mag, that limits you to five rounds. Problem solved for about $0.05.

"What you choose to fill your arsenal is largely dependent on your whole philosophy of what you are preparing for. Here are some possible scenarios:

1) Pandemic
2) Natural Disasters
3) Economic Instability/Social Breakdown
4) Martial Law/Civilian Disarmament
5) Civil War
6) UN/NWO Takeover
7) World War (Nuclear or Biological) "

Didn't see much mentioned about being stranded or lost in
the wilderness. Seems more geared to fending off the invading
hoards.

Good point, and it brings up the age old conundrum:
Do you prepare for all possibilities, and be less than perfectly prepared for any, or do you prepare for the most likely scenario, and be very unprepared for all others?

It was originally written to answer a question on what a person should buy for an survival arsenal. Once you have bought it, whatever you are carrying at the time is what you are stranded or lost in the wilderness with. Each person's situation is different and no one solution is guarrenteed to work 100% for somebody else. Stranded in the wilderness in Tennesee will require different needs than being stranded in the wilderness of Alaska or Canada.

MrB - an EXCELLENT post.

I'd like to add a couple of things from my own perspective.

Regardless of whether you choose a single weapon or an entire armory, none of that weaponry is going to be worth a tinker's dam unless you and everyone who will have access to it learn how to use it in all the conditions in which it could be used.

There are thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people out there who have the money and who buy a good selection of weapons to get them through what may become hard times. A huge percentage of these weapons go into a gun safe and are removed only infrequently to clean or maybe take to the range a couple of times.

What I've chosen to do is to guess about the likelihood of the type of emergency situation that's coming soonest and prepare for that one. As time, training and budget permit I'll then expand the arsenal.

I started with an AR7 and a Springfield M6. Not because they were the absolute best choice, but because they covered a wide variety of potential circumstances and they happened to be available at the times I was able to buy a gun.

Since I purchased those two my circumstances have changed. I now travel 11 states in the Northeast - some of the most heavily populated areas of the country. My take is that the next emergency will be either a natural disaster or another terrorist incident. My concern is not so much the cause of the emergency but rather the civil unrest that will follow. Think about Katrina.

My choice of weapon was thus a 1911 in .45ACP. Why? Not to hunt, but for personal defense. Although I could certainly shoot a pretty big dog with it if I had to and they're not bad eating. I like the fact also that I can (and have) purchase a kit to covert the pistol to a .22 cal for small game and a carbine for larger game. A .45ACP coming out of a 16" barrel is going to be travelling at about 1000fps, and will pack enough wallop to bring a deer down at 50 yards (the practical maximum range for the gun, even though it will shoot much farther).

The key is training. I've been training with the .45 for awhile and will continue all the way through combat training. Once I get to the combat training stage, I'll also be learning about combat rifles and shotguns and will then make a choice as to whether and which I'll buy.

From what I've learned so far, everything mentioned above is correct and valid. I would just recommend a little more strongly that anyone in more densely populated areas obtain a handgun in significant caliber and learn to use it well. And rather than buy a whole bunch of guns and then sit and look at them, buy them one at a time and learn to use them properly.

Hi,

I'm a newbie in this- but looking back at the Rossi...
Youth Matched Pair (each 4-5 pounds)
22/410 (eh) 22/20 gauge
243/20 gauge 22/12 gauge
223/12 gauge 22/ 50 cal
etc....
They have both regular powder and black powder


Tri-Barrel 22/243/20 gauge.
about 6 pounds

length taken down ~20 inches

You can get cheap 22 ammo anywhere.
243 can take down a deer.
20 gauge can take down almost anything, depending on the shot size....

I picked up a 243/ 20 gauge on clearance for $89.00 US

Small. Cheap. Reliable. Easy to learn.

Welcome LCranston.
Talk about resurrecting an old thread.

Yes the over under in two calibers was a decent pattern for a survival rifle. It gave you the choice of two different loads to match the game and the ranges you were likely to shoot it at.

It was a good enough pattern that the Royal Canadian Air Force used to use it as the Survival rifle for transport planes operating north of 60.

I am not familiar with .243 for range or knockdown myself. It gets good reviews though. It might not be quite all you might want for moose or bear, but it seems to outperform the 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington for long range varmint or dear hunting.

I hope you can find the ammunition easily.

The 20 gauge shotgun ammo should be easy to find and should be good on anything up to the size of a fox, or for birds from dove through partridge to ducks, out to about 50 yards (depending on shot size)
So you have both long and short range covered quite nicely.

Good luck with your new rifle.
Remember to practice with it before you need it.

A break action shotgun, either single shot or double barrel, have certain advantages. They are highly reliable, durable, and their large barrels enjoy high recognition as potent weapons. The break action also allows the use of sub-caliber barrel liners which allow you to use smaller calibers of ammunition and to shoot it with more than adequate accuracy.

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

A 12 gauge break action shotgun with liners in, for example, .22LR and 7.62x39 (AK) would give you a weapon capable of taking on a very wide variety of jobs well.

Shotguns, with their ability to handle a wide variety of shells is, in itself, a jack-of-all-trades. Its weaknesses are that the range is limited to less than 100m with regular shells and to 200m with sabot slugs and rifling. Also the shells are both expensive and bulky. There are also issues with recoil and blast. A 12 gauge with a full power shell can be difficult for an untrained person with small frames to handle and even experienced people can have issues if the weapon is fired in constrained or confined spaces. Shooting a powerful shotgun shell while standing beside a concrete wall can be relatively painful, jarring and distracting if your not accustomed to the blast.

Most of these issues are mitigated to some extent by using sub-caliber barrel liners. A .22LR liner gives you the option to shoot the most common, least expensive, lightest ammunition available. The 7.62x39 barrel liner, or other roughly 30 caliber center fire rounds, gives you the ability to shoot at longer ranges, out to 400m, and gives you a round for deer-sized animals that is smaller, lighter and cheaper than most 12 gauge rounds and one that is less punishing in recoil and blast.

I personally favor the double barrel in 12 gauge. It gives you a shot and a follow-up. Should the firing mechanism fail for one barrel, an unlikely event given the simplicity and robust nature of the mechanism, you can shoot the other barrel.

Another option, a bit less expensive and more compact, but usually with less velocity and accurate, would be to use chamber adapters:

http://store.dinaarms.com/12_GA_Adapters_s/1.htm

Less capable perhaps than the longer barrel liners they nonetheless offer the ability to effectively fire a wide variety of shells with slightly lesser effect. This might allow you to more omnivorously graze the available ammunition supply and take advantage of less expensive, common or found ammunition.

My experience with Rossi guns is limited to my .38 spl snubbie in stainless steel. It's quite a nice gun for the money. I've shot many hundreds of normal pressure .38 spl rounds through it. It's broken in real well and has a nice reasonable double action pull and a crisp light single action pull. However, it is starting to loosen up. Therefore, if the Rossi single shot rifle is made of anything like the same steel as my revolver, I would not count on it as a survival gun. I would opt for something with better steel that wouldn't loosen up so much over time.

Wow, Art, that was a great answer. One question (might be stupid)- using either the barrel liner or the chamber adapter- Would that screw up the choke on the shotgun?

The drop in liner barrels, so long as they aren't so long the actually run into the choke, they're fine for the choke.

I've tried emailing that vendor three times in as many months. No response. I keep seeing their adds in print publications, but that kinda makes me wonder about them.

Seeing as that the slug is considerably smaller than the original barrel and choke bores, and the design keeps the liner barrel fairly well centered in this bore, the chances that your choke would be damaged would be very small.

The greatest risk to the shotguns bore and choke is that you might shoot shells with corrosive primers and fail to clean the shotgun bore frequently enough to prevent corrosion.