psychological barriers

Posted by: Chisel

psychological barriers - 12/17/05 10:07 AM

I was going through a few sites showing survival stuff. A drawing showed a snare lifiting a squirrel high by the neck.

Ummmm
How can I say this.
I ... didnt think I could do it.
Period.

Hanging the squirrel, or any other game for that matter... and then skinning the critter.

I have seen a few video clips before for some solideir or trainees skinng LIVE rabbits. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I felt baaaad , real bad.

So, my question to the experts here. Do you think that hunger alone would take care of this in a survival situation ?? Or do you think that I have a weakness that needs to be cured BEFORE I find myself in a survival situation ??

Right now , I can read and learn about surviving, and can equip myself with supplies and gadgets, and condition my body to improve my physical endurance ..etc. But skinng an animal is a bit outside the range of my psychological setup.

Whats your thoughts on this ???
Posted by: M_a_x

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 10:56 AM

Skinning animals while they are still alive is barbaric. Period. There is no real need to do it.
If you can´t kill, gut and dress an animal this is a weakness that needs to be dealt with before you are in a survival situation.
You could try and find someone to show the howtos in real life. Before you attempt to do so you may have to work on your mindset. You could also aquire the skills to procure food that isn't beyond your psycological limits. The latter may be the way to go for you.
For short time survival some people doubt that food is that important after all.
Posted by: norad45

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 11:39 AM

Max is right. Not only is it unnecessary and barbaric, it's downright stupid and dangerous. Critters carry all sorts of nasty things like tularemia. It isn't wise to offer them a chance to bite or scratch you.

His advice to find your psychological limit is sound also. It sounds like maybe your main objection is to the killing rather than the gutting/skinning. I'm not sure what to suggest here other than maybe starting out by catching and cleaning some fish if you haven't ever done it before. Only you can determine if you can move on from there to small game and birds.

Regards, Vince
Posted by: Chisel

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 03:35 PM

Yes, I think I have to start with fish.

I remember reading about eating "anything" in survival situations. It said that some may even eat monkeys. Anyways, the point that I still remember is that after skinning a monkey someone felt like it was a "baby" that was in the pot. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ! And so the author suggested cutting it to pieces to lose the "identity" and make it into merely chunks of meat.

Remebering that isnt really helpful !!! I would stockpile another mountain of beans and canned soup.
Posted by: Jackpine_Savage

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 04:10 PM

Do you have any problems eating what others have processed? It may be helpful to just start out at a wild game feed and taste the various game animals that have been cooked and are ready to eat. That may help getting over the idea of what you are eating. Then try fish and when you are comfortable with them then try birds, like grouse or what ever you can hunt in your area.

I would not start with small four legged critters as they tend to look like a pet or worse a small human. Larger animals don't look human and they are easier, if more work to gut and skin, as they have more room to grab etc. However there is a lot more insides to deal with.

You will have to either get used to, or put up with the smell of guts. In my oppinion Grouse smell worse than deer or anything else I have dealt with. But the taste is more than worth the effort.

Take care and Stay Safe.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 06:00 PM

Trying to dress a live animal is nonsense. I don't understand the motivation behind it. I would recommend dispatching the beastie before preparing it for the pot.

In answer to your question, yes, hunger will go a long ways towards overcoming your mindset. Take for example the Donner party. These were pious, highly moral, God fearing people. The idea of cannibalisim was as unappealing to them as blaspheming the holy spirit, and yet when faced with certain doom, they overcame their mental barriers and ate the dead friends and family they'd been so closely socialized with. How hard was that!!!

If you are a meat eater, my suggestion is to see if you can visit with a butcher that processes carcasses. If you take things in reverse order (there's the sausage, which came from the scrap tub, which came from the trimmed meat, which came from the quarter, which came from the side, which came from the dressed whole, etc). You take it one step at a time going backwards like that, and eventually the sight of a dead animal is not so repulsive. The two biggest hurdles to get past are seeing the dead animal getting dressed, and seeing the live animal getting dead. Suffocating or strangling an animal is not the most humane way to dispatch, but in a survival situation is likely the most effective way at procuring food on the hoof, or paw. It does take a conscious effort to make the leap, but once you get past it a few times, it shouldn't be cause for concern. The main thing is to always respect the kill, regardless of the method. When I go hunting or fishing, or out to the field to harvest livestock, I always thank God and the animal whose life I took for providing me with the sustenance I need. If you are religious, then you should understand that God gave us these plants and animals for our benefit, but that we are to be good stewards nonetheless. If you have no faith, then you should at least accept that all life here on earth is connected, and that respecting the kill is a responsible and ethical act, even in a survival situation.

My upbringing fairly requires that I go out and kill animals and eat them. For me, it is a question of ethics that I use my natural talents to provide for myself, both indirectly (vis-a-vis my job) and by doing the deed with my own two hands. I've also done my tour in the slaughterhouse, and raised pets that were subsequently sold off as food for someone else. I don't think this hardens your spirit, unless you haven't come to terms with the reality of your existence yet, in which case spending some time doing without a belly full of food will help get you over the esoteric hump and back to what life is all about. Cannibalism is perhaps going too far, more an indication of "dumbass" than of dealing with reality.

For some, survival is having their world turned upside down. For others, it is just an unplanned adventure.

I prefer the latter.

Posted by: xbanker

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 06:03 PM

IMO, there?s no way to fully assess your personal limits until you?re in a true life-and-death survival situation. There are countless stories of survival in which individuals performed acts that previously would have been unthinkable to them ? many having to do with food.

We?ve all read stories of people lost a sea, floating for days/weeks/months in a life raft, who end up eating raw fish, turtles, birds, seaweed etc. All stuff we might not normally order off the menu in a fine restaurant if given a choice. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Then there?s the most extreme examples: The legendary Donner Party. For our non-American friends who might not know the story, the Donner Party was a group of emigrants heading west to California (~25 people when it hit the fan), who became trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains during the winter of 1846-47. Nearly half of the party died, and some resorted to eating their dead in an effort to survive.

Or the Uruguayan soccer team: Chile, 1972, when 16 members survived for ~70 days after their airliner crashed in the Andes Mountains. Survivors resorted to cannibalism to stay alive.

My point is that the survival instinct can be pretty strong, especially when it comes to food, and frequently allows people to do things they wouldn't do in a million years under everyday circumstances. And just as often, people don't cross that invisible line.

You might read, if you haven?t already, the book Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why, by Laurence Gonzales. It?s been mentioned several times on the forum (and Doug?s mini-review is on the ETS site). It discusses the psychological aspects of survival.

Edit: Benjammin, what does that say about us, that we mention the Donner party within 3 minutes of one another? <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 07:19 PM

Forgive me if I laugh at all the replies uh, rendered. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Inhibitions are a GOOD thing. Social constraints in the form of cultural taboos, codified laws etc. insure cohesivness and stability in a society. I often tell my vegan friends how insensitive they are to the screams of carrots being ripped from the ground ( hand cupped to ear, horrified look on my face " oh the agony, pain,pain,pain") Butchering live anmals is some pathological conditioning to desensitise soldiers to even greater acts of cruelty. We all do things in mass or with peers our individual conscious would never allow: Me Lai, Dachau, driving in 5 PM L.A. traffic or voting. You may also consider ritualising any butchering within your own religous tradition. Indians ( aka native americans or whatever is PC this week) always thanked the spirit of the animal they hunted and treated the body with near reverence in handling. I explained to a vegan once on a excavation in Wyoming how buffalo to plains indians was equal to taking communion in Christianity. She tried it! ( the buffalo, not communion <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />)
Posted by: wildcard163

Re: psychological barriers - 12/17/05 11:39 PM

Start with fishing, it's cheaper to get started, and there's a longer season. If you can handle cleaning a fish, get a hunting license, once you've successfully cleaned a few rabbits and squirrels, look into trapping. Some folks just can't handle taking a life, any life, for their own sustenance, if that's the case, get REAL good at plant foraging, and find yourself a partner that doesn't mind playing the butcher to your farmer. While I don't make judgements about folks that can't kill their own food (there are a lot more of them out there than many realize), I can't help but wonder, where do you think the steaks, chops, and burger come from? Good luck, and remember, if you eat what you kill, you're only following nature's plan... enjoy being at the top of the food chain.

Troy
Posted by: bubbajoe

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 12:37 AM

It's funny I had this conversation with one of the guys that helps me on the farm with the horses. He asked me if I could kill and eat one of our horses if I had to. Some of our show horses are worth a few bucks. I replied , If it means my family will survive. I'd do just about anything. Yes I could kill and butcher one of the horses.
Put in the right situation ,or I should say survival situation , I think we would surprise ourselves what we are capable of doing.
Not to change the subject. it got me thinking and I'm starting to look at different sources of food. Edible wild plants. Its something to look at. If you can't kill an animal. look at alternative sources of food
Posted by: Susan

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 05:51 AM

Get a good book on edible wild plants, read it thoroughly, take it out and find them, learning to identify them.

They aren't all that tasty (keep some Taco Bell hot sauce packets in your survival kit), but they don't squeal when they're harvested (don't pay any attention to Chris, BTW), there isn't any blood, they don't transmit diseases, they don't bite or scratch (with a few exceptions), they certainly don't run very fast, and they don't have terrified little brown eyes.

I eat chicken and I have chickens. They aren't the same. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sue
Posted by: Chisel

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 09:42 AM

I have definitely learnt a few things. Thanxxx to all

This problem/weakness I have is psychological, not based on religious beliefs. I do eat fish and meat, however, I still prefer or feel more comfortable at eating non-identifiable meats ( kind of denial , huh ?? ) . When I see a whole chicken for example, I may hesitate for a split second before eating, while I don’t even think when I eat a burger or fillet. (looks like some kind of self deception of sorts) …

Anyways, my problem is
(a) I cannot kill the living animal, that is the major part
(b) some kind of disgust or revulsion whatver prevents me of skinning or chopping the animal

Its not that I am a spoilt boy who cannot touch anything dirty. My wife used to leave me sometimes with the small kids (diapers and all). Judging from such incidents its not that much of an issue to deal with feces, vomit and other similar stuff . It seems that animal slaughter is a problem for other reasons than handling foul smell or filth. Part of it comes from a heart that ( I think) is too soft. Maybe.

In a survival situation, I may end up teaming with some of my “heartless” cousins. They deal with animals, and I deal with non-living stuff, like construction, obtaining and purifying water ..etc.

Posted by: Brangdon

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 03:45 PM

> There are countless stories of survival in which individuals performed acts that previously would have
> been unthinkable to them – many having to do with food.

I believe there are also the converse stories, in which people were unable to eat "tainted" food even when their survival depended on it. Such people tend to die, of course.

I've heard this can happen if your diet gets too monotonous. If, for example, your preparation consists of buying tons of rice and tuna and nothing else, and when the disaster happens you remember you don't like fish and have to eat nothing but rice for 3 months, some people will lose the will to live. It just doesn't seem worth it any more.
Posted by: teacher

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 05:30 PM

This is good to know about yourself before an event.

Maybe you should just accept this and always carry food with you. ( saves time, too.)

Teacher RO
Posted by: Susan

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 06:00 PM

"There are countless stories of survival in which individuals performed acts that previously would have been unthinkable to them..."

Even though the Donner Party was famed for cannibalism, most or at least half the people refused to do it. Alfred Packer was denounced for his preference for human meat when he had an ox carcass nearby.

You are what you are. Some people would probably break down and eat relatives, some wouldn't.

And it IS easier to keep food with you. People who are not accustomed to the fine art of hunting can have an incredibly hard time catching something. And I mean people who aren't REAL hunters, but the people who go out once a year with a high-powered rifle and gut-shoot some animal. Put them in the wilderness with a Mora and a Bic, and they'd probably starve to death.

Sue (where's the sneering emoticon...?)
Posted by: wildcard163

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 06:13 PM

You're confusing outdoorsman and backwoodsman... too bad there's such a big difference.

Troy
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 07:45 PM

I'd say the concern is the threshold at which you'd consider killing. While the idea of slaughter may be repugnant to you, euthanasia might be more acceptable. Not all animals I've killed have been for food. I've had my share of "Ole Yeller" moments, and it is not something I care much for, but I accept that it is part of my responsiblity for the animals under my care. We all have thresholds for which we can accept killing. Slaughter for survival is less objective than putting an animal out of it's misery, but the end result is the same. The threshold is choice. Both ought to be based on respect for the animal, but one includes the element of compassion, which is a greater motivator than hunger may be. So long as you have a choice, you will defer from the harshness of reality. It is thus for most all of our life's events. We all prefer our cocoons.

I think even Euell Gibbons had a pretty tough time of it trying to live just off the plant life he could find. Edible plants are a way of subsisting until we get lucky enough to bag meat and fat. We are not herbivores, and the only way vegans get by is due to cultivation of replacement food sources that you're not going to get in the wild no how. There's never been a hunter-gatherer group in all of history that sustained itself exclusively by gathering and consuming edible plants. Either they supplemented their diet with meat, or they didn't make it. There are no exceptions.

I think that, so long as their is a choice in your life, you will not be willing to kill for food. That is not an indictment or derogatory, it is just an observation. In this day and age, it doesn't make you any less a man (or woman). It is just part of who you are for now. Under different conditions, I would expect you to react differently, including the possibility that you might consider killing to eat. Until then, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. A man's gotta know his limitations (hey, that's a catchy little phrase!).
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 07:47 PM

Hmm, I reckon we've faced some similar situations in life would be my take on it. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/18/05 07:55 PM

Skinning live rabbits is a cop-out. Whoever thought that up is lazy and undeserving of any respect. Whoever is willing to go through that training is a robot, also undeserving of any respect. The best thing you could do for either type is kill em quick. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Susan

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 02:40 AM

To tell the truth, I would probably have less of a problem killing a person who deserved it than an animal (unless it was attacking). That sounds kind of peculiar, doesn't it? If I had to do it, I might not feel the same afterward, but I have the sneaking suspicion that I would.

Sue (Sue's Gene-Pool Cleaning Service, ask for rates....) <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: ironraven

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 02:55 AM

I think it is a common problem, actually.

I know one kid, a college sophmore, who had never seen a cow until he was 18, and didn't realise that is where we get milk from. I didn't bother to point out to him that where he goes to school, if a cow is no longer producing milk, she goes to the little barn, then to the dining hall. I just didn't have the heart.

At least not while he was eating.
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 10:53 PM

I'd say in this day and age, that is not peculiar at all. I believe society says that, as a whole, humans are inherently bad, and animals are innocent little creatures, warm and fuzzy, and might even talk to you if you love them and idolize them and hug them and call them George. Anthropomorphics is big business these days.

Of course, not too many of us see the cougar playing with someone's 60 lb 9 year old little girl like the housecat plays with the mouse. The Ghost and the Darkness is a good example of animal carnage. Then again, there will be those who insist that animals behave like that only because of human conflict with them. We're smarter, more advanced, therefore it must be our own fault somehow.

Posted by: snoman

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 10:58 PM

Maybe you get milk from cows, around here we get it from the local quickie-mart! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: ScottRezaLogan

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 10:59 PM

I hear what you're saying, -and I've got this Warm, Humane, Fuzzie side about me too. I'm Filled and Bubbling with it! Contrary to some appearances, -such as when I've talked quite hawkishly on Iraq, etc.

But for me, -this doesn't extend to the Call and Neccessities for Survival. One's gotsta do here what they've gotta do!

I of course advocate doing so in as entirely Quick and Humane way as all possible. In that here I feel precisely as you do!

I'm out Surviving now,- (Combo Standard Survival and having found myself Homeless for a while), -(Doing quite OK and Well at it too!), -but I havn't had Occassion or Neccessity to actually Hunt, Trap, etc. But I'd do so if I had to. And I'm for myself getting to "Know Up"!, -on this overall Field, -even if I weren't now so Surviving!, -in its own Right and Importance, -in any event and regard.

(On my Survival Situation itself, -I entered this considerably Rusty on actual Details, Equipment, etc, -I'm somewhat embarrassed to have to say! -But well endowed with the Resourcefulness, Spirit, Sense, and Knack of it all! I just so Apply it, -and do so quite very well. The Proof is in the Pudding, -and the Pudding is that I've been out here Successfully Surviving, -and very Well so, -even now here in a Northeast U.S. winter, -for 7 months now. As such, -this former Newbie feels Qualified to talk Authoritatively on Survivi-Prep. Though I still remain a bit Rusty, -on many of the actual Brass Tacks Prepparations, Equipment, and Details! I've recently Resolved to Rectify that though, -here in this New Year, -as some of you know. Also, I saw "War Clouds" looming ahead for awhile, -and so had made at least some "Preparations for War"! Am again Doing Quite OK and Well! Don't overly worry bout me! Thats it all in a nutshell.).

I'm NOT against Hunting, -There is so much Worthwhile, Good, and Great about it! I'm also *Not* opposed to Hunting Purely for Sport. Though I don't care to personally do so for that, myself. My Pro-Hunting is *Not* limited to only Survival and Food.

I encourage at least reading up, and equipping up on it, -on Guns and Ammo, Animals and the Outdoors, Tracks and Tracking, etc. So that you'd be Ready to Go! Should a Survival Situation so arise! and perhaps so override some of your inhibitions.

But precisely out of my Warm Fuzzy Love and Regard for Animals, -I just personally don't care to Hunt. Much the same as I just don't care for Coffee! I know well that there's some Mighty Good Coffees in the world! And I really Well Regard and Respect that! But nonetheless, -I'm just not a coffee drinker! (Hawaiian Punch is my Beverage of Choice!).(Brings to mind a motto of mine, -"The ((Original)) Star Trek is my Soap Opera!, Hawaiian Punch is my Beer!").

But I personally wouldn't hesitate to Hunt or Trap, for Food and Survival.

I once helped somebody slaughter and gut a cow. I was a good bit Uncomfortable and all at the actual slaughter, -but had No problem whatsoever, -at the skinning and gutting itself. (Same for Biology dissections back in hi school. I never understood all the Squeamish Crowing about it, from many a fellow classmate.).

At my own present Campsite, -I've recently pitched a nestful of rat or ratlike infants, down the hill. No problem or Hesitation whatsoever, -but I nevertheless Well Respected, and Did Feel, -for these Animals! (I've gotta do what I've gotta Survival do! I've gotta keep such Animals, -who incidentally of course try to compete with me for my Food Supply, -at bay. Utilizing such an oppurtunity to reduce their population some, -is one of my Survival Do what I have to Do's.)

However, -weeks earlier, -I also came across a nest of older ones, -very small but certainly beyond infanthood. (Bodies, not counting tail, no more than two inches long.). I couldn't and didn't kill them, -at least not directly or knowingly. They were just staying there in one spot, -obviously wondering what was going on, -preferring just to be back in their Nest. To get Back to Normal!, as oppossed to the uncomfortable enuff abnormalacy they now found themselves in. I just set them over within a nearby rockpile, -I had recently built. Gently and all, of course. Out of their nest now, -they probably eventually died there. If so, -thats all to the Well and Good, -in that they otherwise would have only eventually grown, -to join with what others there be there, -in Competition for my Food Supply! Then I Would have Really Regretted and Rued!, -the day back when, -when I *Didn't* "Do What I Had to Do!". And of course also for the other various reasons we don't want this particular Animal around, -did I do this over. But Humanely and all speaking, -I just didn't wish to kill them! At least not outright.

I've thought of just feeding them to some nearby Cats, -on both occasions. -Shudda, -but didn't. These Cats get a lot of my "reject food", -as well as some good food, -from me anyway.

Again, -I'd "vote" for you're "Getting Up the Steam", -not that you're weak, -to Do what you may thereby Have to Do, -in a potential Survival Situation. Once again, -as quickly and Humanely as all possible!, -of course!

(Skinning Rabbits or other Animals alive, however, -I feel to not only be utterly Repugnant!, -but also Utterly UN-Neccessary! In most cases anyway.). [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Chisel[/email]
Posted by: xbanker

Re: psychological barriers - 12/19/05 11:16 PM

Quote:
Alfred Packer was denounced for his preference for human meat when he had an ox carcass nearby.

Having lived in Colorado in the 60s-70s, I'm familiar with the story. In fact, I've enjoyed a good hamburger at the Alferd Packer Grill, on the CU campus, Boulder.

It's only rumor that his headstone says, "Never met a man he didn't like." <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 01:09 AM

Susan wrote: "To tell the truth, I would probably have less of a problem killing a person who deserved it than an animal (unless it was attacking). That sounds kind of peculiar, doesn't it? If I had to do it, I might not feel the same afterward, but I have the sneaking suspicion that I would."

My alternate daughter (long story) went to the range with me try out the new .38 I bought her. She wouldn't shoot at the steel animal silohouttes <sp?> but she had no problems stitching a B27 target (man shaped) target from crotch to head with .38 holes!
gino
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Chisel

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 05:06 AM

Very valuable views , thanks everyone

About skinning live rabbits, I guess it was to de-sensitize the soldiers as someone said. Seems they wanted them not to thiink about it if they had to kill a person.

I remember seeing Survivor. A man was carrying a chicken and talking about having to kill her for food. He broke her neck quick and the ladies were in tears. Later one of the ladies buried the chicken legs with thanks for the creature that offered herslef to sustain them.

ummm, too phiolosphical maybe, but OK.

I saw a film once , when two guys were lost in a snow covered land. One of them had a dog and the other guy told him they had to eat the dog. He refused as he considered the dog "like a family member". So, that is another dimension; eating an animal that is somehow attached to you, or you are attached to him. Perhpas in such case, you could use my trick: let someone else do the killing.

Also, do you think you can kill & eat your son/daughter pet ??
Posted by: Susan

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 05:44 AM

I would rather eat a relative than my dog or cats. It would be a combination of survival and tidying up the gene pool. OTOH, it wouldn't bother me a bit to feed the relative to the pets! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sue
Posted by: ironraven

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 06:19 AM

I'll second that motion. I like my cats a lot more than I like most of my family.

And besides, several of my cousins are vegans- they already eat what food eats. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: benjammin

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 02:51 PM

There, too, brings up an alternative. My pets are trained hunters. We work as a team to get food we share. They are much better at their job than any human, and I am much better than they are at killing food. Symbiosis at it's finest. I like to think I am the leader, but sometimes I wonder if Wyatt knows who's the boss.

Having raised and eaten pets, I can say the taste of their flesh differs considerably from that of other members of the same breed.
Posted by: wildcard163

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 05:05 PM

Way ta go Ben... a good huntin' dog's worth 'is weight in gold.

Troy
Posted by: Brangdon

Re: psychological barriers - 12/20/05 08:54 PM

I suspect my cats will eat me, if I succumb before they do. They're welcome.
Posted by: harrkev

Re: psychological barriers - 12/21/05 02:10 PM

Quote:
I suspect my cats will eat me, if I succumb before they do. They're welcome.

Do you think that they would have the decency to wait until you were good-and-dead before diving in? It might not be pleasant for them to hurry the process along if you are severely weakened.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/01/08 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: benjammin
In answer to your question, yes, hunger will go a long ways towards overcoming your mindset. Take for example the Donner party. These were pious, highly moral, God fearing people. The idea of cannibalisim was as unappealing to them as blaspheming the holy spirit, and yet when faced with certain doom, they overcame their mental barriers and ate the dead friends and family they'd been so closely socialized with. How hard was that!!!

Was that hunger or was that the will to survive?

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: AROTC

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 02:02 AM

A couple of people have suggested starting with going fishing and I think thats a good idea. But theres an even easier and more available place to start that you mentioned in your post. Go to the grocery and buy a whole chicken and practice processing it. Not only is it a good way to build your ability to deal with butchering an animal. Its also a good way to learn about the anatomy of small animals and how to process them for cooking. After that, a rabbit is pretty much the same except you have to peel the skin off first and their leaner so cooking them with some bacon fat is a definite plus.

I also highly recommend the book The Omnivore's Dilemma its mostly about where our industrial food supply comes from and how its made, but theres also an interesting piece on small scale butchering and also on hunting. A very good read and a real eye opener on where our food comes from.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 02:33 AM

This sort of think represents a useless and counterproductive branch of practical survival training.

1) There is no need to skin game alive. None. Never. I have killed and butchered chickens bare handed. A training session with limited utility but it shows that with some determination, training (basically understanding that it can be done) you can get a lot done with no tools other than what your born with. But there was no need to be cruel. Necks can be broken or the animal strangled.

2) Harvesting game doesn't represent a practical or efficient survival method for most people in most locations. We haven't been a frontier nation for a long time so playing Daniel Boone is usually not a practical strategy. For most people laying in a case or two of Beanie-Weenie is a far more efficient strategy.

Even the few people who are likely find themselves deep in the woods in a survival situation need to consider that time and effort spent hunting is time and effort not spent working on getting rescued or hiking out.

The only people who really benefit from hunting game as a major food source are people homesteading the forest. In which case your not concerned with survival during an emergency. Your practicing a lifestyle.

3) The idea that there is a level of blind determination and willing cruelty that gives you an advantage is simply false.

Torturing animals is indicative of a callus and antisocial personality that is highly likely to have difficulty getting along with others and are prone to escalating open-ended conflicts with other people even when things are going well. During a high stress situation this sort of immature, antisocial, paranoid, angry and unfeeling personality will tend to cause resentments and conflicts that distract from and interfere with practical efforts. Exactly the sort of loose-cannon personality that becomes both a hazard to themselves and those around them.

4) Discounting the problems that such personalities are prone to in a survival situation these sorts of public demonstrations plays into the stereotype of practical survival and preparedness as a macho boy's club full of camouflage-clad gun worshipers and emotionally stunted angry Peter Pans.

This 'training' and video is exactly the sort of macho stunt that gives survival a bad name.

Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:19 AM

I would like to remind everyone the original post was written two and a half years ago. I asked Benjamin a question, therefore resurrecting this dead thread, because I have been struggling with the will to survive.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 05:46 AM

... "because I have been struggling with the will to survive."

I suggest that instead of seeking solace on an internet forum you would be better off seeking professional help from someone in person. A trusted friend, counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist or, if you ascribe to a faith and think it might help, a preacher or other religious figure would be a place to start.

I don't wish to dissuade you from gaining what you can interacting with people online but I have found, particularly in terms of personal advice, the advice is less effective and progress is slow compared to what can be had in person from a trained mental health professional.

There may also be an underlying physical condition or chemical imbalance that is making you feel as you do. A situation your not likely to have addressed online.

I urge you to get the help you need from qualified people in person.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
I suggest that instead of seeking solace on an internet forum you would be better off seeking professional help from someone in person. A trusted friend, counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist or, if you ascribe to a faith and think it might help, a preacher or other religious figure would be a place to start.

I don't wish to dissuade you from gaining what you can interacting with people online but I have found, particularly in terms of personal advice, the advice is less effective and progress is slow compared to what can be had in person from a trained mental health professional.

There may also be an underlying physical condition or chemical imbalance that is making you feel as you do. A situation your not likely to have addressed online.

I urge you to get the help you need from qualified people in person.

I'm talking about in a survival situation.

Edit: Sure, we can talk about tools and knowledge all day but what is most important factor in a survival situation? The will to survive.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: wildman800

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 12:32 PM

I have a very strong will to survive, but there are boundaries that I won't go past. Cannabalism IS one of those few barriers.

I agree strongly wth Benjammin's post. A Native American custom is to never kill a bear unless your existence depends upon it. Then the hunter must explain to the bear why it was necessary for the hunter to have the bear's hide, meat, and bones.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 01:19 PM

Originally Posted By: wildman800
I have a very strong will to survive, but there are boundaries that I won't go past. Cannabalism IS one of those few barriers.

I believe what it boils down to is everyone has their own "rules," for a lack of better wording, for how far they will go to survive. What caused me to look for this thread was someone mentioning TEOTWAWKI. If that alone were to happen, I believe I could survive because I have three reasons to survive: My mom and my sisters. If I were in a situation as Benjamin described, and my reasons to survive were among the dead, G-d may as well take me out.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 02:30 PM

Bbenjammin makes so many good points in his past posts.

I also agree that skinning a live animal is barbaric and not necessary. I've been hunting for many years and my dad always taught me to respect the animals I was hunting. You don't want them to suffer needlessly.

Lobster... well... that is another story... How many people would/would not be able to drop a live lobster in a boiling pot of water?

I really think that in a survival situation, you dig really far down and do things that you wouldn't normally think you could. What would you do to keep yourself alive for your children, family, friends, what-have-you.

If I was with my family in a survival situation and something happened to them and they died, what would I do... Well, eating them wouldn't be my first choice, that is for sure. Obviously you would try to source food in other ways. In the most extreme conditions, no food available, it has been a LONG time since I had anything to eat, possibly I would turn to cannibalism... It really would go down to your core beliefs at this point:

1) Do I no longer have the will to survive since my loved ones are gone.

2) Would my loved ones want me to survive and go on?

Hard questions indeed.

As far as killing other animals, that seems a cake walk compared to the above.

As they say, survival is definitely a state of mind... You either want to survive, or you do not. There is no middle ground.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_H
I really think that in a survival situation, you dig really far down and do things that you wouldn't normally think you could. What would you do to keep yourself alive for your children, family, friends, what-have-you.

That is my point. While my sisters and I have stood together in hard times, those bad times were nowhere near as horrible as what the Donner Party went through. While I might be able to survive a Donner Party incident, I would not do it alone nor would I do it for myself. I would survive for and with my sisters or I would not survive at all.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Russ

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:18 PM

I find that to be a poor survival instinct. (Edited out) People die, life goes on. Consider that without memories of your sisters they will truly be gone.


That was harsh, my apologies.
Posted by: Mike_H

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Russ
I find that to be a poor survival instinct. Do you find yourself so low on the self-worth scale that your existence is meaningless without your sisters?


I think that statement is a bit harsh... Look at the documented cases where, in long time married couples, where one dies, the other dies shortly afterwards. This isn't something to just be cast aside, it is a real struggle for people.

However, unless actually placed in a survival situation, you can't be sure how you will react.

The next obvious question would be: Jeanette, if in a non-survival situation, if your sisters got sick and passed away, what would you do? (Please, no harsh tones implied here at all...) I know that I was seriously hurt and affected by the death of my father when I was 17. It was, by no means, easy. Yet I pulled myself together to continue on.

It is all mindset, esp. in survival... Surviving applies to day to day life as well as many other posters have mentioned in the various threads. Surviving is living in this crazy world on a daily basis, be it buckling your seatbelt to help survive a crash, to washing your hands to help avoid spreading germs.
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Russ
I find that to be a poor survival instinct. Do you find yourself so low on the self-worth scale that your existence is meaningless without your sisters? People die, life goes on. Consider that without memories of your sisters they will truly be gone.

We already lost our dad and Mom couldn't be there for us so all we had were each other. So yes, without them, there is not much of a point.

Are you familiar with the movie, Grave of the Fireflies? When Seita lost everyone in his life, his mom, his sister, his dad, he lost the will to live and he too died.

Jeanette Isabelle
Posted by: Jeanette_Isabelle

Re: psychological barriers - 06/02/08 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike_H
The next obvious question would be: Jeanette, if in a non-survival situation, if your sisters got sick and passed away, what would you do? (Please, no harsh tones implied here at all...) I know that I was seriously hurt and affected by the death of my father when I was 17. It was, by no means, easy. Yet I pulled myself together to continue on.

Assuming Mom was still alive, I would have her, Aunt Elizabeth, Uncle David, my cousins, congregation and friends. It's my sisters who have been my anchor.

Jeanette Isabelle