Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak?

Posted by: Arney

Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/16/05 06:10 PM

Can someone with technical knowledge of hazardous environment certifications comment on the scenario below? I've looked these classifications up but I'm still not sure what they mean in terms of real world situations.

I love my Streamlight Propolymer LED (non-Lux version) as a general, around-the-house flashlight (bought it at Costco before the Lux version came out). I know that some people have had overheating problems with it, but it has worked great for me and I love the broad, even flood that it throws. Perfect for household use IMHO. It sits on my nightstand.

This light has all these certifications: Class I, Division 1,Groups C, D; Class I, Division 2, Groups A, B, C, D; Class II, Division 2, Group G; Class III, T3C. And interestingly, in writing this post, I just found that the 4AA model is also: Permissible for use in Gassy Mines. Methane/air only, but not the 3N or 3C cell models. I have the 4AA model.

So, given this scenario: I live in SoCal, a violent earthquake wakes me in the middle of night and turns my bed into a theme park ride. When the shaking stops, the power is out and it's completely dark. I can smell gas. Can I safely turn on my Streamlight so I can see my way out of there, confident that I won't blow up the building?

I suppose adding some chem light sticks next to the bed might not be a bad idea, too. And maybe replacing my crowbar with a non-sparking titanium one, too! And I should secure this stuff to the bed instead of having them sit on the nightstand so they don't get thrown across the room during a bad one.



Posted by: JohnN

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/16/05 10:22 PM


You might try posting this question on Candlepowerforums.com.

-john
Posted by: benjammin

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/17/05 06:53 AM

I would think the primary hazard of using a flashlight in a combustible/flammable environment would be breaking the bulb, which in the case of an LED is not a concern. Next down the list would be contact closure arcing, which in low current applications should also not be a factor. If you are using a higher power LED or hybrid matrix, then the switch in the flashlight ought to be FM rated at the least. Beyond that, I don't expect much risk.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/17/05 04:00 PM

I have no Idea of any details of the lights you are speaking of.
If you are worried that it may not be safe, you might like to try and take it apart and seal it some how, or even put some extra grease on the O Ring seals if it uses them.

The manifacturer may make the entire range technically intrinsically safe, but for cost reasons they may have only tested 1 model to be certified, therefor covering themselves in case of a lawsuit.

I have a friend who works in those environments, and they will not allow anything without the certification to be used even if it is safe.
I cant remember the brand, but one of the lights they use is exactly the same as the off the shelf model except but it uses a different colour plastic and cost 3 times the price because it has a certificate to say its safe.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/17/05 04:30 PM

Let me see if I understand your point correctly, Biggzie. You're saying that your friend's workplace requires that the actual flashlight in his hand has been individually tested and certified to be safe in a given hazardous environment? I can imagine that in depth testing like that would really drive up the price of each flashlight--but definitely cheap compared to the potential consequences.

Are any firefighters, petrochem, or utility workers reading this thread? How do you folks know your flashlights are safe to use, say, around a gas leak? Do you have to make sure that the actual flashlight on your belt is safe, or do you just need to use an approved model that has certification x,y,z?

Since the 4AA model of this flashlight is "Permissible for use in Gassy Mines. Methane/air only" I'm thinking that it would be safe to use in the scenario I outlined in the parent post. I just need to remember to remind my wife not to instinctively flip on the light switch on the way out of the dark room! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/17/05 04:45 PM

Hi folks. I've had time to Google around and I think I have found the answer to my question. Simply put, yes, I can switch on my Streamlight Propolymer and be confident that I won't blow myself up in the presence of a gas leak after an earthquake.

I found a nice description of these Class and Division categories here Defining Class I specifications and subgroups

If you're looking for a light that is safe around natural gas leaks, looks like you want a flashlight that is approved for Class I, Division 1, Group C, D which is exactly what the Streamlight Proplymer series is approved for.

Like I said in the parent, it's a great general purpose flashlight.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/17/05 07:36 PM

I keep an old Browning Saberlight, a/k/a Pelican 2000, by my bed for that exact reason. I also have an older UK dive light that is similarly rated.

I think a rule of thumb is that if it is dave rated it is OK.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 12:34 AM

Quote:
I think a rule of thumb is that if it is dive rated it is OK.


Y'know, randjack, that makes sense. If you can make a light that will withstand multiple atmospheres of pressure and keep all that high pressure water out of your light, it should be able to isolate any electrical connections from any natural gas floating around in the air. I'm not sure if there's more to making a safe flashlight for hazardous environments than that single point, but I did look up your Browning light on the Pelican website. If it's the Pelican Super Sabrelite 2000 then it is indeed Class I, Div 1, Group C,D approved (e.g. natural gas environment) so it seems that you're GTG in the next big earthquake. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 06:43 AM

Yeah, I didn' repeat all that classification info that is stamped on the barrell of the Browning light. It just seems to me that if it is isolated from the immediate atmosphere, it is isolated from spark ignition.

I live now on the 10th floore of a high rise. Aside from fire, gas, which I take to be closely related to fire, is in this environment the biggest immediate, real threat. This building leaks like a sieve, without ground movement.

This line of discussion makes me curious. I have a number of lights that I know would/could/might might make contact spark with sliding contacts. Rotary contacts I would not think would be any different.

What about the solid state lights like the Photos? I would not think that they are a potential ignition source.

I shall, of course, lie awake with worry over this.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 03:15 PM

No, what I meant is the manufacturer will make a number of different models. I think you gave 3 models in your original post. The manufacturer has to pay a number of dollars to get the certification for a model certified to be intrinsically safe.
To save money the manufacturer may only send 1 model out of the range to be tested. In this case the other 2 models may have been built to the same standard and might be perfectly safe, but they do not have the certification to be used.
I didnt mean every single light had to be tested, only the model.

Also I am speaking from experience in Australia. Some of the standard you use in the US dont translate to our standards so things have to be retested for ours.

Another example which has nothing to do with flashlights.
One of my friends used to work for Caterpillar as a mechanic.
He bought some Caterpillar brand work boots with steel caps.
After using them for a while he found out that Caterpillar didnt submit their boot to the Australian standards testing. So with our Occupational Health Safety & Welfare laws, he was only able to wear boots that had passed the tests. He knew that the boots were as good as the boots he replaced them with, but he had no choice.
I think Caterpillar have now passed the tests, but 4 years ago they hadn't.

Also in response to "I just need to remember to remind my wife not to instinctively flip on the light switch on the way out of the dark room! "
I have friends who would think its cheaper than a divorce <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: JohnN

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 04:11 PM

Quote:
This line of discussion makes me curious. I have a number of lights that I know would/could/might might make contact spark with sliding contacts. Rotary contacts I would not think would be any different.


I don't think it has to do with what type of contact. It is the fact that in the dive lights that the contacts are on the inside of the waterproofing.

Quote:
What about the solid state lights like the Photos? I would not think that they are a potential ignition source.


I don't think they are intrinsically any safer or less safe. Keep in mind their are fairly large differences in design between the Photon models. For example, the Photon I & II have no waterproofing and I would say they would be very bad choices for flamable gas. On the other hand, the Photon III has some waterproofing and would probably be much better.

On the other hand, personally, I'd look to lights like the UK MiniQ40 or UK 2L for this type of service. I'm not sure what the ratings on these lights are, but they are mega-waterproof, plastic (no spark if dropped).

-john
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 05:15 PM

Quote:
Also in response to "I just need to remember to remind my wife not to instinctively flip on the light switch on the way out of the dark room! "
I have friends who would think its cheaper than a divorce


Careful there, Biggzie. This "California earthquake divorce" can work both ways, y'know. I'm sure the ladies down at the supermarket are talking about exactly the same thing right now...<img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

But regarding the rest of your post, now I understand your point and yes, it happens all the time. True, it appears that what you described was the case with these Streamlight Propolymers since only the 4AA model has the additional certification from the US Mine Safety and Health Administration although all three models are probably equally safe.

Here in the US, I think most relatively knowledgable consumers see, say, the Underwriter Labs' UL logo on products as some sign of quality/safety, but most people probably don't realize that manufacturers actually have to pay to get these products tested. I think most consumers think that the UL testing is paid for by the government, or that the UL is actually part of the government, so that if the logo is missing, the product must somehow be inferior. That may not be true, but the there's always that doubt.

For example, I've been meaning to buy a fire escape ladder for my bedroom for a long time because the front door is only escape route out of the apartment. However, I've only seen one UL-approved fire escape ladder. There are other cheaper, more compact ladders out there that appeal to me, and I have to admit that I'm a bit hesitant to buy them knowing that there's a UL-approved one out there although it's more expensive, heavy and bulky. The unapproved ladders are probably good enough, just like your friend's boots, but then again, there's that "but how do we know?" voice in the back of my head.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 05:29 PM

Benjammin, what's an FM rating? At first glance, I keep wanting to think it's some sort of radio signal shielding thing.

Just a wild guess, but I wonder if bomb disposal or building demo guys need to worry about radio signals from their flashlights (I'm sure it's a concern for other electronics they may carry) since they can work around radio-triggered explosives.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 09:30 PM

UL [Underwriters Laboratory] is a volutary testing organization that has been and often is tricked by munufacturers. I had a case involving a counter top appliance that was required to generate water at a maximum of 140 degrees F. The manufacturer submitted samples to UL for testing, and the first batch failed, making about 165 degrees. They resubmitted a new sample batch, which passed.

Trouble was, they already had made 50,000 units with the higher temp thermostat. They retrofitted 6 to send to UL with the conforming thermostat, and sent the rest to the public with a UL approved stamp on them.

UL was not amused when we uncovered the scam. Neither was the 4 y/o kid with 3rd degree burns.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 09:43 PM

Quote:
UL [Underwriters Laboratory] is a volutary testing organization that has been and often is tricked by munufacturers.


Great...

Well, since I can't make up my mind between the fire escape ladder with and without the UL mark, I guess that I should just buy both to be safe. When the need arises, I'll drop them out the window side-by-side and use one ladder for the right arm and leg, and other one for my left arm and leg. I should be able to make it to the ground safely this way methinks. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/18/05 11:56 PM

Then you would be wondering "Is this twice the safety or twice as dangerous" <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nothing like a little doubt to start the day <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: harrkev

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/19/05 01:51 PM

Just one quick comment on the "dive light" remark. I believe that another part of being safe for use in a hazardous environment is that the case itself will not make sparks. If you make a dive light out of stainless steel, it might survive in the water, but might still make sparks if struck against the wrong material.

But then again, all dive lights that I have seen are plastic, which is 100% safe.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/19/05 09:25 PM

Similarly, I'm sure the case needs to be strong enough not to break open when dropped or hit by something hard, thus exposing the electrical components inside.

Actually, this thread is making me rethink what the term "explosion proof" means when describing flashlights. I always assumed that it meant that the light is tough enough to withstand a certain force explosion without breaking, but maybe it actually means the light won't cause an explosion? Anyone have an idea?
Posted by: JohnN

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/19/05 10:42 PM


I'm pretty sure it is the latter. The idea is you don't want your flashlight causing an explosion. In case of an explosion, the survival of your light is probably not going to be one of your primary concerns! :-)

-john
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/19/05 11:12 PM

Quote:
In case of an explosion, the survival of your light is probably not going to be one of your primary concerns! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Considering how fanatical some people on this forum can get about their equipment, I beg to differ! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: JohnN

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/19/05 11:24 PM


Heh, I probably resemble that remark! :-)

-john
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 12:35 AM

I have a flashlight that caused an explosion.

When the girlfriend seen the price I paid for my little Surefire ... boy did she explode .... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: THIRDPIG

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 12:59 AM

I've been to 100's of gas leaks in my job as a fire LT. We are issued Streamlight Survivors. I see guys use all kinds of lights.

The gas company guys all carry Maglites, rechargebles.

The exposive range is quite narrow and to reach the L.E.L you would have a ton of gas, the joint would be just loaded.99.9 percent of all gas calls don't reach more than 4-5 percant of the LEL from what I've seen.

Although I have been to one house that blew up killing 2. Again to reach those levels it takes almost a broken pipe flowing for awhile.

Last trick I went for a gas call where someone stole the stove and let the pipe flow open till someone smelled it from the street. The LEL upstairs was I think around 20 percent of the LEL and the place was thick with gas hell it was smelled from outside yet only 20 percent LEL.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 01:02 AM

"But then again, all dive lights that I have seen are plastic, which is 100% safe"

Static electricity would be another factor when concidering sparks. Something that would have been concidered when the lights go for cetcification. (I hope)
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 02:02 AM

Finally, someone with some actual experience with flashlights and gas leaks! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the feedback, THIRDPIG.

I guess a broken gas pipe is the scenario I was envisioning in my hypothetical scenario--a major earthquake could break the gas connection to the stove as the floor rocked violently back and forth. The kitchen is right next to our bedroom, so that's why we'd smell it right after the quake stopped. I know water heaters get strapped in California, but stoves? I've personally never seen it here.

But from what you say, sounds like we'd have a sufficient time to evacuate before the atmosphere became explosive, even if the gas line were completely busted open in our kitchen. I suppose opening the windows on the way out would help, too.
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 02:19 AM

OK, then, I guess we have a pretty definitive answer to my original question, thanks primarily to THIRDPIG and his long experience with actual gas leaks. The flashlight will NOT cause my apartment to explode--although Bigzzie's girlfriend is another matter entirely. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 02:29 AM

Make that EX-girlfriend

She tried to get in the way of me and my toys ... Oops I meant Important necessary equipment ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: red_jeep

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 02:55 AM

FM stands for Factory Mutual, another certification organization similar to UL. They apparently have a more narrow focus on product testing than UL, as you don't see their name on many products.

I concur with most of the others: a flashlight that's dive rated should be safe enough for most "casual" gas leak encounters. Most of those will have some sort of FM/UL approval anyway. The converse is not necessarily true; ie: you wouldn't take a Streamlight Vulcan diving. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: THIRDPIG

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 03:17 AM

Well your welcome. My advice, would be to get out during any gas emergency. Call 911/ gas company let them check it out. My experience is mostly with minor leaks at the stove etc.

Not many earthquakes in NY ! Now that could cause some broken pipes and explosions. Your basic "is that gas I smell" type leaks well there is little to fear. A broken pipe inside is the real deal just leave.

BTW the gas will rise, and the highest readings will be the upper floors. When we vent a house we open the top floor windows and a lower door.

The funny part is we park the firetruck a house away so if it blows the city is not out a truck I guess, we send just 2 guys with full ppe,scba etc. Then the gas company comes, parks in front and a guy in a t shirt and pants hops out smoking a cigartte........
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 02:32 PM

Thanks, red_jeep. Learn something new every day. I'll keep a lookout for FM approved gear and see how often it comes up.
Posted by: KG2V

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 04:48 PM

Heh - one of my ham radios if FM "Intrinsicly safe" - an expensive option - ex commercial gear
Posted by: Arney

Re: Using Streamlight flashlight in gas leak? - 09/20/05 05:13 PM

Quote:
Heh - one of my ham radios is FM "Intrinsicly safe" - an expensive option - ex commercial gear


If I could also dive with it, then I would be impressed. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />