Dealing with big dogs

On Friday, whilst walking my dog (fairly big, intact male, 3yrs old, Bouvier, 44kg/100lbs) I spotted another big dog (intact male, 2yrs old, Rhodesian Ridgeback). I called my dog back and held him by his collar, meanwhile the other dog's owner has spotted him running towards us and is giving chase. Classic ridgeback approach technique - he circles around the back of us. Now my dog is big - usually the biggest on the block and the breed is regularly trained to Schutzhund 3, but a Ridgeback is probably the only dog around that could cause him serious damage, so I held onto him tightly, expecting the other owner to grab the Ridgeback. The other dog lunged for my dog's neck - unfortunately, my hand was still there, so I now have a deep puncture wound in my left ring finger and have of course let go of my dog. A few tussles later and the other guy has his dog by the collar and my dog returns to me.

OK, ETS mode - fortunately I have my handkerchief and use it with compression to stop the copious bleeding. Stupidly, I have left my cellphone at home, I am only half a mile from home and reasoned I wouldn't need it. That won't happen again. If the dog has punctured my wrist instead of my finger, things could have gone very badly.

I make it home, call the doc and he wants me in immediately. The wound is deep and so I'm now on penicillin. Huge ones. Plus I get a lesson in how to apply steristrips!

Today, the swelling is beginning to subside, thanks to the penicillin there doesn't appear to be infection and I can start to use the hand again.

The question that is still dominating my thoughts is: what could I have done to prevent it from happening, preferably without losing my dog?

My first thought is a leash, is that over simplistic? While on that thought, is there a leash law where you are? Obviously you were able to restrain your dog in time, but the other person was not.

Maybe the best thing to do would have been to just let your dog go. Dog's have an instict to not kill each other- just to establish dominance. By holding on to your dog's collar, you may have interfered with his ability to communicate via body language, and also removed his ability to maneuver. I wasn't there though, so I can't say for sure. Dog's almost always work it out without hurting each other. By holding on to your dog, you removed "escape" as an option, and so "aggression" was the only option left- so it probably took on an aggressive stance, that the other dog read and went into attack mode.

There are, of course, poorly socialized dogs out there that don't communicate properly, and can be quite dangerous. And the sad thing is, it's usually not safe anymore to give them the socialization they need to be able to learn proper doggy etiquette. But even then I think the best thing is to let your dog take care of itself as much as possible.

Hi Malpaso,

it would be a shame to have the dogs on a leash where we walk - it is open countryside. My dog was under control and I had his leash ready to put on him, but the other dog forced the issue and I certainly wouldn't have wanted my dog tied up in his leash if he needed to defend himself.

My question is more aimed at thinking of ways to deal with an approaching aggressive dog - techinques, tools etc. Bearing in mind we are not allowed to carry guns here!

I agree it's a shame to have dogs on leashes, but it's a law most place around where I live. My thought in your case was not to have him on the leash while walking, but only to have the leash handy, so that you could have attched it when you grabbed his collar, thereby having control without endangering your hands. Also, if there was a leash law, that would put the onus on the other person for injuries caused to you or your dog.

Does pepper spray work on dogs? I would think that it would, however, you might have ended up spraying your dog as well.

I deal with this kind of problem all the time. We have a large, trained german shepherd who is a total sweetheart with family but can be mean as hell with other dogs. We never let her off leash in the city but not everyone here with a dog is that considerate. (Leashes are required by law here.)

At least once a week, someone's dog run up to ours, presumably to play. The ensuing growling, barking, and rising hackles generally scares them off. Now and then, however, another dog doesn't back down and then all hell breaks loose. I do try to restrain my dog, but if the other dog clearly means business, I will absolutely let my dog defend herself. Unfortunately, this has generally meant the other dog will get hurt in someway unless its owner appears on the scene quickly. This is really a shame, because it's not the dog's fault that its owner is irresponsible.

All that being said, the worst place for your hands in a dog fight is anywhere near the business end and all those sharp pointy teeth. The first thing you should do once you grab your dog's collar is attach the leash, which gives you some control at a distance and gives your dog some room to maneuvere and posture. This display alone may ward off an attack, and even if it doesn't, it lets your dog protect itself and keeps you safe as well.

Last point -- one person alone cannot break up a real dog fight, so don't even try. You need both owners involved, preferably each pulling as hard a possible on a leash or whatever it takes to get their dogs to disengage. If the other owner isn't around, then I would join my dog in fighting off the stray, which is an entirely different thing than separating two combating dogs. If this were a more urgent problem for us, I would carry a large stick or pepper spray specifically formulated for canine usage, but I have no idea what's legal where you live.

carry a walking stick, or better yet, an umbrella you can open with one hand.

tro

You are very lucky. I did medical photography for many years and have seen hundreds of dog bites. Even small dogs can do permanent damage and the big dogs almost always have very serious bites.

This will annoy dog owners, but I think that dogs, of any size, should NEVER be allowed off a leash when near people. So many times the owners (who frequently were with the injured) said "my dog has never ever been agressive before". A big dog can crush a childs skull. I have seen it. A family dog got up, streached and then clamped down on the child, who died from the wounds. I have seen large men with huge arms, have their forearm bones crushed by dogs.

Just because the dog would like to run is not good enough for me. I, as a person who has been attacked by a dog, know that I will have almost no warning of the attack. The dog will run twords me, and either stop, or attack. I won't know which until it hits me.

I know you believe your dog is safe. But it is not. I feel very threatened when I see a loose dog. (and I am 6' 225 lb) I feel it is my right to protect myself, so if your dog comes running twords me in an agressive way, I will do WHATEVER I can to prevent an attack. I can not take the risk to wait to see if it will really bite or not.

Nomad
PS. The most claimed insurance item is dog bites.

I used to run 4-5 miles a day on city streets in residential neighborhoods with a lot of loose dogs around. Every now and then, one would try to get aggressive. My strategy was to run straight AT the dog, screaming yelling and waving my arms like hell. They turn tail and run. It always worked. It works on bullls, too.

Pepper Spray. I ALWAYS have a can on me, no matter what the local laws.

I was at a school playground about a year or so ago and a dog (German Shephard/Lab Mix it looked like) came up out of nowhere and headed straight for my wife, and 14 month old daughter. It was barking furiously, snarling, teeth bared and lunging forward. The kids were screaming, my wife was screaming, and I was yelling and waving my arms, but the dog would not back down and started to move forward. I got between wife and kid, my son ran into the van, and I sprayed the *&^*&^ing dog with a whole can of pepper spray, right in the eyes and nose I would have shot it too, if I had my gun in the car, but then again we were on school grounds and I imagined that it would have been a Big Issue.

The dog was effectively blind except for sensing light and shadow and snapping at any motion at this point, so my wife and kids got into the van while I looked around for a large stick to club the damn thing to death. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a big stick, but I did try to run it down with the van as we left, but it was in between some cars by that time. I called the school Monday to let them know about the vicious dog on the grounds and they said that they knew about it, but they didn't want to do anything about it - they said when the dog comes, the teachers tell the kids to run away. Duh.

Anyway, pepper spray made a good stop, I HIGHLY reccomend that people carry some AT ALL TIMES. The only time this does not apply is flying, even in checked luggage (even though it's allowed) because a burst pepper spray canister would make the cabin very unconforatble.

I'd suggest you get a lawyer, and get that Ridgeback put down. that's a dangerous animal and should not be out in the public. I have no tolerance for dangerous animals of any kind.

I've owned large dogs and medium sized dogs - the mediums were Pits or in the family of Pits (AmStaffs, American Bull Dogs) so people have a certain reaction to them without the dogs ever acting agressive in the first place. I never let my dogs run where there are people around. At the first sign that a person has arrived - the leashes go on. I trust my dogs, but one can never tell, and they may interpret something as an attack that isn't.

You might consider mace - like postal delivery people carry. If someone has their dog off leash and the dog is charging you - to my mind they can hardly complain if you defend yourself in a non-lethal manner. Better that than you getting bit and the dog getting the blue juice.

Speaking of attatching leashes quickly - REI used to sell a collar that had a short leash attatched that wrapped around the collar and secured to itself (to keep from hanging) with velcro. It's not good for walking - but it makes a good emergency leash - when you didn't expect to need one, but here come people / another dog... I had one and have used it for that purpose and it worked out well.

Dog Collar

I realise I wasnt there and you were focused on your dog, but if the ridgeback turned on you at any stage, the first thing you need is your hand covering your throat. Thats the first place a dog will attack if it means business.
Here in Australia, where dogs are likely to come into contact with wild pigs or kangaroos, they use wide leather collars the protect the dogs throat. maybe you could invest in something to protect your dog.
As for other means of protection, start with a heavy stick, but knowing ridgebacks you could hit one across the back of its head with full force and it would barely know you are there.
Available over here is an electronic sounding device designed to hurt a dogs hearing. These are marketed to stop dog attacks and video footage I've seen shows a dog in full attack mode stop instantly. Might hurt your dog in the process, but both dogs wont be looking at each other after you press the button, and they will survive.
Another cheaper alternative would be to fill a small water pistol, something like the small Super Soaker range, with citronella. Dogs seem to hate it. With the range of those water pistols you could give the aproaching dog a dose in the face before it had a chance to bite.
And you can also try yelling at the other dog at the top of your voice as if you are the one in control.(full scream might be a better description)
The idea being to confuse the other dog, so use standard dog control type commands. "Sit Down and shut up" would be the first thing coming out of my mouth. Ive made guard dogs back down that have charged up to a fence by yelling back at them. If they think they are doing wrong or if you make them think that, they soon back off. Mind you I wouldnt have tested it without the fence being there <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, my dad was a postman for 20+years, and he always used this funny helmet when he was riding the motor scooters. i found out why one day, when he came home from work and told me about this new dog on his route that attacked. This helmet sat on his head, not like modern helmets which fit around the head, and he had a quick release button on the strap. As he was riding the dog ran up and as it was about to bite his leg, Dad had grabbed the quick release and swung the helmet down and layed the dog out cold. That dog wouldnt go near him after that.

He taught me to deal with agressive dogs.
When I was at high school some of my friends told me aboutt a dog in a wrecking yard and how mean it was,So we walked past the 6 foot high fence. They wouldnt go near the fence but I walked up close and when the dog ran up and started I turned towards it and acted as if I knew it and called it over as if to play with it and wanted a game. That confused the hell out of it and I even got to give it a quick pat through the fence.
Its all in the bluff.

I think that might be an overreaction. I generally agree that any dog who bites a person without provocation should be put down. However, in this case: (1) they were in a place where people agree not to use leashes and (2) he didn't let go of his dog's collar when the other dog charged. I would humbly suggest this was a mistake on the part of the original poster and I wouldn't necessarily blame the dog for it.

Dogs go for each other's throats. If you've ever seen a large dog grab another one around the neck and do the "shake of death," you quickly learn not to get your hands involved in that. Most of us who keep large dogs learn how to manage this kind of situation without getting bitten. I'm sure this sounds barbaric but dogs will be dogs. They will bite each other and if you put your hands in there, you're guaranteed to get bitten too. This applies even to good, trained dogs; even the best of them can be unpredictable and it's the responsibility of the owner to learn how to manage it, which is why I think pteron asked this question in the first place. I think it's great that he wants to figure out how to deal with this, without saying the dog should be put down, etc.

My $.02.

My dad has been bit by loose dogs a few times. Once he took the brunt of an attacking large dog to save our cocker spaniel from harm (she was leashed). He picked her up (an option I don't think you have, given your large dog), but not in time to save his leg from a nasty bite. Rabies shots are not fun.

When facing an irresponsible owner, who is really the root of the problem, there is not much you can do before an incident. It's not too much fun to keep dogs on a leash when they want to run, but at least you wouldn't be contributing to the problem of loose dogs.

I've always lived sorrounded by dogs. I love big breeds but I take their trainning very seriously, I'm not going to be one of those idiots who can't control their dog and give the whole breed a bad name. I hate hurting them, even when they attack me (weird for a guy who hunts for a living, isn't it?).

In the city I have a really large Mastiff (he weighs 100kg, around 200 pounds) a young Pit Bull and a ridiculously small mixed breed dog that just walked into my yard a couple of years ago (watching him play with the mastiff is great). Al my dogs are very friendly, they are used to other dogs and people (I try to make them play with kids as often as possible). The mastiff has a lot of training as a rescue dog. Since I usually walk them together with a friend who has six labs (also rescue dogs) I haven't had many problems with other dogs, since they tend to stay away from a tight knit group like this one.

Anyway, the only problems I've had were with owners too stupid to keep an eye on their dogs and dog walkers who just sit down at the park with their headphones and let their dogs loose. I'm proud to say that my dogs never started a fight and in many years I only had a nasty incident. There was a doberman trying to attack my smaller dog and my mastiff stood infront of him, looking at me and waitting for permission to help his little buddy. I put both of my dogs on leashes and shouted to the dog walker who was sitting down under a tree listening to music, oblivious to what was happening. Things got out of control when the doberman finally attacked the my little dog and my mastiff went berserk. I pulled off the small dog, but I wasn't able to separate the other two (plus the little one kept trying to get back in). The poor doberman got really mangled (thank God it wasn't killed and a veterinary friend of mine had his office right across the street). When everything was over the idiotic dog walker came running and threatening me to call the police because of what my dog had done. I didn't let him finish the sentence before I kicked his ass, I was so pissed of that this idiot had gotten the animals hurt (not just mine, I can't stand the sight of a wounded dog). He tried to press charges for assault, but since the park was a block away from my home lots of neighbours who know I'm not an agressive person and whose kids play soccer with my dogs told the police what happened and I didn't even have to go to the police station.

In the mountains or in the countryside dogs are a bit more of a problem. Sometimes they'll come out of a field just running at you. I think a good, thick, walking stick is an excelent defense. If I was with kids and thought there was real danger, I would act like with a mountain lion or wild boar: fill it up with lead. Extendable batons can be a good choice for urban dog attacks. I know I could take out almost any dog with my knife, but I would probably get hurt badly in the process. Heavy boots are another good thing.

In the city I find that the problems are usually the owners. People don't assume the responsability that comes with owning a dog and the poor critters get hurt because of the overpopulation of idiots.

Big sticks work!! I do not walk my dogs with out at least a hickory cane or more likely a staff. My normal walking stick is about nose high on me and gives me enough reach to ward them off if they are just curious or lots of stick to work them over with if it comes to that. They are usually intent on my dogs and never see the stick coming. I have swatted their legs out from under them, driven the end of the stick into them, as well as just plan old hit them across the back or head. I have spent many hours working with my dogs to try to ensure they don’t cause problems and take what precautions I can to keep the irresponsible at bay.
The English have a history with the quarter staff might be time to knock the rust off of some of those old techniques.

P.S. No hope of putting the other owner down I guess? Since they are the problem not the dog that is the most logical answer.

I've been lunged at a few times, I found that having a firm grip on your dogs collar allows you to use him as leverage: pull back hard on your dog as you pivot at the hips, lift your foot up and kick the attacking mutt under the chin as he lunges. I've done it twice and stunned the attacker into retreat. It even surprised my dog so much he also stands down.

If you separate fighting dogs, seize the hind legs and pull hard. They will let go with their jaws and turn on you. Let you foot be convincing…

I carry pepper spray (dog repellent), used it once, it works, you will get a mouthful yourself and you need time to pull it out.

Until you run into the wrong bull <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

I walk a lot and I've been seriously attacked twice, with numerous close calls. I've managed to not get bitten yet. Sorry about your dog and hand.

You did excellent. Don't panic. Standing still works quite well. Most of the time the dogs are being territorial and are just trying to scare you off. And they like to circle around and attack your legs, hopefully to bring you down on the ground.

Doggie treats work really well. Most of them go hyper for a handful of milkbones. Every time you walk by, toss half a dozen by them. Eventually they associate you with treats. I don't care if the neighbor says not to feed them.

Shove a mountain bike in its face. The poor boxer didn't know what to do. It kept circling and attacking but never actually biting my Trek ZX's aluminum. I saw it coming and had time to dismount and use the bike as a shield. It's owner just kept yelling at it.

Fight it. Run right at it and don't back down while tossing rocks. It will either engage and bite (which is dangerous for a dog) or it will back down. Some kind of doberman mix did this. Its owner and I had a serious talk later that day.

Make sure any spray has OC in it. The pepper stuff will irritate their nose and eyes. Fox River sells some or check out LA Police Gear. I've never used it but it's supposed to work.

Wear dog tags. If you do get seriously injured, the medics will patch you up.

Carry a knife. I like Al-Mar's SERE 2k or Doug's.

I do a lot of walking and have had several encounters with agressive dogs. First thing I'd say is that I love dogs and have had dogs for most of my 55 years. I REALY believe that there are no bad dogs , only bad owners . Every bad encounter I've had , the owner of the dog was there . The first one that comes to mind is when I was about 14 yrs. old. I was walking home after going for a swim in the pond down the street from my house. I was walking barefoot and had my sneakers in my hand. I was walking in the street about 25 yards from a woman who was doing some gardening with her dog standing next to her. There were no leash laws then and I new most of the dogs in the neighborhood. I had seen this dog around before and never had any reason to believe it would act the way it did. I think the dog picked up some sort of signal from the woman and all of a sudden it came charging at me with its teeth showing .I new it was going to bite me. I calmly stood my ground and when the dog was going to bite I stuck out my sneaker. It bit the sneaker once and then ran back to its owner. The ignorant woman didn't apologise , she didn't even look up from her gardening. Dogs are very perceptive at picking up on body language . Its one of the ways they use to comunicate with each other. If a dog attacks you should try to stay calm and stand your ground , face the dog , dont turn sideways and of course never ever turn your back or run. Don't make agresive moves towards the dog , just stand your ground and try to look like you are the bigger badder dog. Carrying a stick or something is a good idea but I wouldn't try to hit the dog with it . That might make the dog more agessive. If the dog is going to bite just put the stick near his face and it will bight the stick instead of you. . I would never use pepper spray on a dog . I think its cruel and not necessary. As for leash laws , in my town they are a joke. When my dog , a German Shepard , was a puppy I would take her for long walks around my neighborhood , always on a leash. A neighbors dog , that was a very large mixed brred , was always running free around the neighborhood even though there are leash laws. The dog attacked my dog at least 12 times . I did my best to protect her or go the other way when I spotted the dog but it didn't always work. I called the local dog officer after every attack but nothing was ever done . I called the police but they told me they weren't the dog police. The dogs owner saw several of the attacks but made no attempt to restrain his dog. I think he even encouraged it. I wanted to kick the jerks ass but I was worried about getting sued or maybe he'd lie and say my dog bit him. To make the story a little shorter , my dog became old enough to take care of herself and when the next attack came I gave her some slack on the leash and she beat up the dog. Chewed him up pretty good. When the jerk neighbors dog went home all bloody he called the cops and told them I had beaten his dog with a stick. The cops came right over to my house and gave me a real bad time . So I had to go see the cheif of police to straighten things out. The dog never attacked my dog again. My point of this story is that , as usual, you can't depend on the authorities to help you out and that the criminals and law breakers will get off with a slap on the wrist while the honest law abiding citizen gets the [censored] end of the stick.

This is the electronic gizmo that dogs don't like,

http://www.dazer.com/dog-deterrent.jsp

I have used one and it works on most dogs, but if you are unlucky enough to come across an aggressive, deaf dog this thing will not do much.

Haven't heard of using citronella, but i know a few motorcycle riders that use a squirt gun with ammonia. Have a friend that swears that his nieghbors dog always liked to chase him on his bike (he lives around farm land, so country dogs that like to chase things) until the dog got a shot right in the face. Now the dog hides under the porch when he hears a motorcycle.

iF the dogs were about the same size you should have stepped back and let the dogs settle things. Dog fights for the most part look a lot worse than they realy are . Have you ever seen the way wolves settle matters on a nature channel . Looks realy bad but no serious damage is done . Its what dogs do. On the other hand, If the other dog was so agressive that it had to bite you to get to your dog I think you need to take action against the owner. I hate to see a dog put down but the owner needs to be taught a lesson. What if it had been a child with a dog that was attacked.

I used citronella when a new neighbour moved in with 2 rotwellers.
There was big barking sessions happening with my dog and the fence was getting demolished from all the pounding between them.

You'll get no arguement from this dog owner. Leash 'em in town and make dern sure you're alone in the wilderness, before cutting them loose. Leashing doesn't just keep you dog off little Tommy, it keeps the cement truck off your dog. I am in total agreement that the owner is at fault. Perhaps a good they should be made to collect the poop that they undoubtedly failed to pick up.

Biscuits

I agree with the throat kick or a hard square punch to its nose can render it into a sneezing fit.

If a dog is locked on to another dog/person another way of disabling them is to reach over and grab both its front legs and pull them out sideways from under the dog while putting maximum weight or even your knee as leaverage in the middle of its back. This wont work on real big dog because you wont get the force.
This is a weak area and can break its ribs as well as dislocate its shoulders.
Or if you can flip it over and push its legs out side ways can work to if you can get enough weight into it. I herd of someone doing this to a rotweller that attacked someone when I was a kid. I remember my Dad explaining it to me when I was about 7, and it alway stuck in the back of my mind.
It takes more guts and strength than grabbing its back legs and some people wont be able to manage it, but if there is a child getting mauled it is another option to disable the attacker.
Im a dog lover and hate to see dog injuries, but I wouldnt hesitate if it was my family or friends, and I would seriously think about it if it was my dog getting attacked.

I generally am not concerned about my ability to deal with mis-trained dogs (I was a pizza guy in my teenage years). Disclaimer: I love dogs, often times more than people. Still, several times I had to do some "field training" with several misguided dogs who belived I was lunch. Specifically, by their nose running into my fist. However, my girlfriend takes my dog for frequent walks (at night sometimes). She doesn't know it but this is her christmas gift. http://www.nitro-pak.com/product_info.ph...a4c0838ceed4855

Does anyone know the effectiveness of Pepper Spray on things of the canine varity?

You are lucky because pepper spray, mace , tazzers etc are against the law here in Australia.

I even had the police try any take my leatherman wave from my belt because its against the law. I was just walking down the street to get some lunch so I wasn't provoking anything.
I was able to keep it because I argued I used it for work.
I figured it was near the end of the month and they were short on their quota for the month.

Since I consider a Leatherman fairly benign, I'm curious. What can you carry? And how much of a "pass" will the work-related reasoning get you (in terms of what would otherwise be illegal to carry)?

Hi GoatRider,



I'm cetainly of that opinion now. I waited just a little too long to let go.

Fitzoid,



my pont exactly. The other dog was not attempting to bite me, he was attempting to dominate my dog and I got in the way. I wouldn't want him destroyed for obeying his testosterone.

I did, however, give the other owner a few choice words about controlling his dog.

Thanks everyone for the comments and ideas.

I will seriously consider using a walking stick in future. I don't believe pepper spray is legal here but I shall investigate further. I usually have a folder on me, but I can't see how it would have been of any use in this situation.

In hindsight, I should definitely have let go of my dog before the other dog lunged, he is perfectly able to take care of himself, was older and therefore had a psychological advantage and has a very thick coat to protect him.

I'm still shocked at how little time I had to let go and at how painless the initial bite was. The first I knew about it was when the blood started dripping. I shall certainly be more proactive in future situations.

Andy

I must admit to having gotten lucky - only once was I threatend by a dog , and I knew this agressive dog lived in the area, so I was somewhat prepared. I was walking home from the bus from my then job in construction - I draped my tool belt over my left arm (weak side) and held that in front of me as a guard, pulled the 20 oz ball peen from the loop, put my back towards a car, and was ready to defend when the owner came up and yelled at ME for threating HIS dog. I told the owner that was lucky I had not killed the mutt

I was always told that in the worst case IF you can grab the dogs REAR legs, you grab them and start swinging - and bash the dogs head against nearest tree/lightpost/car/etc - and DON'T stop till the brains are running out of the open skull

I love dogs, and in general, dogs love me (only met one dog that didn't like me - never figured that dog out) - but if one attacks me/mine - I WILL defend myself

As fas as I know, anything with a locking blade is an "offensive weapon" in Australia and in England.

Of course, there's no crime at all in either of those places, so you see how well that and similar laws have worked.

I won't say I love dogs, I'm more a cat person.
But I don't hate them either (well... except maybe those little yapping beasts.... who - maybe - think they are big dogs ... who knows... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ?).

When I was much younger, I acted as mailman (summer's job). On my daily tour, there were many houses with dogs.
One of those, a german shepard, didn't act very friendly from the beginning. each day, it became worse, upgrading from barking to growling, each day coming nearer and more hostile. Hopefully, its owner was present and she kept it at bay, always saying "don't worry, my dog is not dangerous..."..
One day, she didn't respond my ringing right away, but the dog did. And it just run to me. I just had time to put my big leather satchel in front of me... and the poor satchel got bitten, instead of my arm. From that day on, that woman got her mail delivered on the post of her fence, no longer at her door.
At another house, there was another big dog who always barked furiously each time it saw me approching in the street. Only during the last days of my job, did I found it was in fact happy to see me, and just wanted to be stroked. We had a few good moments after that, it was really a nice doggy !

An aunt of mine love animals and always had pet dogs.
Among others , she once had a german shepard, very friendly, used to play with her young kid (I don't exactly rememeber, he must have been somewhere between 5 and 10 yo - not the dog; my nephew...). But one day, as both the dog and my nephew were alone playing behind the house, the dog bit him at the face, ripping off a good piece of cheek. I guess the kid did make something so the dog reacted, but I don't know what.

IMO the fact is dogs ARE UNPREDICTABLE... even for those who think they know them.

Here in France, as far as I know, dogs are to be under control of their owners and should not be allowed to roam freely in the streets (except if the municipality edited a special regulation saying the opposite).
Now, what exactly means "to be under control", that's more vague.. At first, I thought it meant they have to be on leash, but it's not written so in the laws/regulations. I guess the owner must be able to restrain his dog, be it on leash or not...
Most of the time, when there is an accident, it's the owner's fault : not enough attention given to what his dog is doing (he is not "controlling" his dog), bad education - both the owner and the dog ....

When I see big dogs running (almost) freely, a long way from being under control from a distant, inattentive master, I just think about gun related safety rules at the range :
it's not enough that you know your gun is empty and thus not dangerous, you won't let it laying around or point it in any direction ; you have to "control" it, i.e. handle it correctly without pointing it to people, plus, you have to clearly show others it is safe (empty opened cylinder, slide open, magazine removed and so on...).

I think a similar set of safety rules should exist for dog owners. Letting a big dog running barking to other people in the street is the same as waving a pistol, apparently ready to fire. I feel threatened and even with a well meaning, playfull dog, my attitude can then convoy a threat and the dog's attitude can in turn change to a really menacing one....
Then I will get hurt, the dog will get hurt, and that *$?%** owner is the only guilty one.

I would be curious to have statistics from insurance companies, on how many people are accidentaly injured by firearms and how many are dogs' victims...


ooopsss... may be I should have put some 'rant on/off' tags.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just a few of the interesting dog bite-related statistics from dogexpert.com :

* There are approximately 4.5 million reported dog bites annually in the United States (nearly 2% of the American population).
* According to the American Medical Association, dog bites are the second leading cause of childhood injury, surpassing playground accidents.
* Dog bites to people of the male gender are approximately two times greater than the incidence involving females.
* Dogs that are licensed with an identifiable owner are implicated in the vast majority of dog bites (compared with strays).
* The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document that a chained dog is 2.8 times more likely to bite than an unchained dog.
* Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones.
* The majority of dog bites to adult humans are inflicted to the lower extremities followed by bites to the upper extremities including the head, face and neck. For children, 77% of dog bite injuries are to facial areas.
* According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance
* From 1979 to 1998, at least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in bite related deaths. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were involved in more than 50 percent of these incidences.

My last three homes (covering 20 years), my HO insurance company (same one) has always asked at issuance: Own dogs? How many? What breed? Bite history?

"The question that is still dominating my thoughts is: what could I have done to prevent it from happening, preferably without losing my dog?"

Kel-tec P32 several shots (center mass).

Regards to all,
Dreadnought

Animals can be unpredictable just like people. My dog, before it past away, was well trained and friendly toward everyone. All my neighbors loved him and wished they could have a dog just like him. One day out of the blue, he got very aggressive, without provocation, toward not a stranger but my own father. My dad let him know who was boss and sent him off whimpering and peeing on himself. Moral of the story is always error in the favor of caution/safety when it comes to dogs or any animal.
P.S. I love dogs, had them all my life, and plan to have many large and small dogs in the future.

I dont know the exact wording of the law, but I was walking down the street of a nearby town with the belt pouch in plain view.
The police officer involved was young and clearly suffering from uniform syndrome. (Put on a uniform and thinks he is .... (You get the picture)) They also are told they must get a quota of convictions each month (government denied but talk to an officer on the quiet and get the real story)

If it was just a blade I am sure I would have lost it and got a fine, but because it was pliers etc I talked myself out of it but was told I shouldnt do it.
The local police leave me alone, but I do know a couple of them, so they know I do use them for work etc.

I think there is a blade size limit but it doesnt matter if its a lock blade or not. Hence I dont carry knives 97% of the time, but I have an assortment of multitools I always carry.
To make things worse I life near the border of 2 states so I have 2 lots of laws to deal with.

WARNING: Rant follows, for those who dont wish to proceed turn away now!

Our gun laws a stupid as well and our government now has the mentality on not governing for the people and just doing what it likes.
for example it is moving through paliament to sell a government owned asset called Telstra. 70% of the population say they dont want it sold but its pushing through the legislation anyway.

Some years ago there was a mass shooting and the Government banner semi auto riffles and semi auto shotguns and guns with magazines that hold more than 5 rounds (or it maybe 7, cant remember exactly)
But the joke was they organised a buy back for these weapons but didn't pay out on unregistered guns only registered guns. So some people was turned away with the weapons.
Now we have the criminals with the banned weapons and the rest of the population are becoming ready made victims.

If you look into history you will see that PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. disarmed the population so it could control them.
The government is now gearing up for the next lot of banning weapons.

And in the name of fighting terrorism our laws are looking like what Saddam used to do in Iraq. But with out the torture of course.

I have been meaning to find out exactly what the laws are here in the state of South Australia because ignorance isnt an excuse. (guilty as charged)
So I called in to see the police.

Here is a summary of my visit and I found out the laws have changed since my incident.

When questioned about carrying my leatherman:
Response: “you can carry it for any lawful purpose but not near or on a licensed premises especially after 9pm. Also you are not allowed to use it for self defense.” (Licensed meaning serving alcohol)

When questioned about carrying a normal knife:
Response: “why would you want to carry a knife?”
My response “ I want to know what the law is because I carry one when bushwalking or camping etc.”
Response: “you can carry it for any lawful purpose, there is no size or type limit, apart from prohibited weapons. example: if you buy a knife at the camping store and we ask you what you are doing with the knife and you say “I have just bought it and Im going to the car” is ok. But if you are walking down the night club district in Adelaide (State capital city) with the same knife you would be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon. If you are going camping, leave it in the car until you get there then carry it.”
He then gave me a leaflet on weapon laws.

Summary: it seems that you can be charged for carrying any knife.

Some things of interest from the leaflet:
There are 3 classifications of weapons: 1. Offensive Weapons 2. Dangerous articles 3. Prohibited Weapons

1. Offensive Weapons
Anything can be an offensive weapon if it is carried or used in a way that is offensive or with intent to harm others.
It is illegal to carry an offensive weapon without a lawful excuse.

2. Dangerous article
It is illegal to manufacture, supply, deal in, possess or use a dangerous article without a lawful excuse.

3. Prohibited Weapon
It is illegal to manufacture, supply, deal in, possess or use a dangerous article unless exempt.

An example given under Offensive weapons is carrying a hammer in a nightclub at 2am.

Examples of Dangerous Articles
blow gun or pipe, slingshot, dart projector or archery dart slinger, capsicum spray, Self protection device (device that emits electric current/energy or sound )

Examples of Prohibited Weapons
Ballistic knife, Catapult, shanghai, slingshot with a brace, tear gas, mace, concealed weapon (article that appears harmless but conceals a knife/spike etc), Dypenylaminechloroarsone in all forms (can anyone tell me what that is), extendable batton, fighting knife ( butterfly, dagger, flick, push knives etc), hand or foot claws, knuckle duster, morning start, nunchakus, pistol cross bow, star knife, throwing knife, undetectable knife (made from material preventing detection by x-ray or metal detectors)

Got this from Dictionary.com
"A highly poisonous yellow crystalline compound, C12H9AsClN, used as a poison gas and sometimes with tear gas. Also called diphenylaminechloroarsine."

It spell cheaked it as diphenylaminechloroarsine (the last o is an i in there data base.)

I've read through the replies and many offer good suggestions. Of course, prevention is always the best policy. If you are confronted by an aggressive dog, be prepared to fight it off, contrary to what many have said there is such a thing as a bad dog . Some are not socialized by their owners and do not know how to deal with people or other dogs. Chained or tied dogs are good examples. In any case , when approached by an aggressive dog, you can behave like a submissive dog, by adopting the same body language:

1-do stand sideways (makes you look smaller)
2-do slump your shoulders (also protects your face)
3-do avert your eyes (make sure to see him in your peripheral vision)
4-do stand still or back away slowly
5-be familiar with but do not rely on the dogs body language - it is very difficult to detect subtle clues depending on coats, cropped ears / tails. This video is a good starting point - good for kids too : Learn to Speak Dog(speakers/sound not required)

Great video! Thanks for posting it! I wish they had also shown raised hackles (back hair), which is very easy to see from a distance and a sure sign you should stay away from a dog.

I think too many people think they can scare off errant dogs with noise and arm waving, etc. That may be true 9 out of 10 times, but it's that last time that will getcha. Although to tell you the truth, if I see a mean looking stray, I'm already looking down at the ground... to find a big stick...

I agree with you, and with Fitz. I am a subscriber to the 'run right at them and yell' plan for domesticated dogs that are aggressive, but years ago I had to shoot several dozen feral dogs on a piece of land we had close to town. They had been dumped in the country, and they were worse than wild, because they weren't afraid of people. They were BAD dogs, and they killed a lot of livestock

First, Fitz.. for the record: Your avatar is the best looking Shepherd I've seen in a long time. And I've seen a lot of Sieger and Siegren class dogs! I love the longer-coated variants!

I've worked Schutzhund, trained dogs for a police department, and been owned by German Shepherds. I've seen too many instances of irresponsible or inattentive owners allowing dominant dogs too close to each other. And, frankly, I've made my share of mistakes in classes and on the street. Here's what I think, FWIW:


1) Pepper Spray and Sticks can be useful, as can a cannon. It is often a matter of timing. If the attack is "joined" it often is very difficult to break up even with maximum brutality on the part of the handler.

2) The best intervention is an early intervention. If I saw another dog moving within 20-30 feet and eyeing my dog, I'd move (heel my dog) away at an angle and keep moving. I'd keep my dog from making eye contact with the loose dog (YES, you can train this!) ALMOST always the dog-on-dog attack is preceded by signaling between the dogs, and this suggestion often breaks that up in time.

3) I'd have a walking stick. Actually, the one I carry is a shooter's monopod which telescopes out to 6ft. What has worked well for me is to take a 1/2 step between the dogs (assuming the oncoming dog is 10-15 feet away) and EXTEND THE STICK AND POINT IT DIRECTLY AT HIM/HER and repeating in a loud deep voice NO. Brandishing it as a club absolutely as a last resort, since it can trigger an aggressive or defensive attack too. I can tell you that I've had and worked dogs who (if I "attacked" the other dog) would absolutely join my attack. The idea is that you and your stick create separation and distration. Works pretty well. Similarly for pepper spray: in my experience if they're joined in battle, the battle likely will continue spray or not! Your chances improve if you spray at the maximum distance effective, and follow with retreat (at an angle).

4) How to break up a fight in progress... opinions vary. This is what the best Schutzhund trainer I've ever met teaches: a) both owners grab the hind legs of their dogs, back off and spin away. Hind legs rarely bite. b)once distance is established, everyone has to keep moving away. The dogs will remember each other and will hold a grudge. Training them not to do so is possible, but tricky. If there aren't two handlers ready/willing to do this (e.g. the scenario in this thread)... stay out of it.

As for the opinion that fighting dogs usually settle the problem and withdraw with minimal injury if people let them: My opinion differs. If they were really fighting.. if they meant business and weren't just playground-bullying, one or both are going to the Vet. Emergency hospital. Winner or looser.

Finally (MAN.. I'm ususually wordy today), the opinions we see here from time to time about OUR ability to fight a large attacking dog differ from my experience. I've been the guy in the padded suit, knowing what's coming, and having done that before many times.. and I wouldn't give you odds on my chances unarmed and unpadded against any of the large working breeds used for this kind of work. I might (probably would) survive, but I'll have broken bones and other serious injuries. A knife, gun or club would not prevent serious injury if I waited until the dog hit me. It might, if I could use the weapon to prevent the attack. But if that dog means business and hits you, expect to go down and expect pain/shock/puncture/and fracture at the point of impact.

....having said all that, I'm going to the dog park to walk my Alligator.

NAro,

Thanks for you comments!! We love coated shepherds. Most strangers we encounter have never seen one before and are amazed to see an enormous "fluffy" looking german shepherd.

I'm always very impressed with serious dog trainers and the respect they give the animals they work with. We spent several years training our dog (night and weekend classes) and got to work closely with some very capable people. No one knows better that the people who train them the power these animals have. I happen to think obedience training should be mandatory for large dogs, as most owners don't seem to know any more than to yell and tug at the leash, for all the good that does...

Peper Mace is a good option. I have used it in a duty status.

I walk my big boy (see my avatar) about every night in a suburban setting. Unsecured dogs on my route are my worst probelm. Most are of the cat-size yappy type, so we just keep walking. However, on one occasion a husky came bolting out of no where. I blinded him with an exremely bright flashlight that I carry and was able to convice him to move on. However, had that not worked, I was prepared to use the integrated pepper spray dispenser in the light. The flashlight is called a Tiger Light and is a favorite of some of my LEO friends. Thus, in a non-threatening form of a MagLite, I have an exremely bright light that will definitely blind an agreesive dog and a pepper spray back up. Not cheap, but worth it for my route.

Craig.