Rifle, low maintenance but reliable

I am not an expereinced hunter or outdoorsman, but I do believe in being as prepared as possibe. My main focus when researching/buying items for preparedness is low maintenance. I feel that I or people I'm with will have very little time and be in very poor conditions for maintaining and caring for our goods. In my opinion, in an emergency situation, the time and materials needed for maintenance and care of most items will not be available. As an example, for a sidearm I chose the H & K USP 9, due to its safety (dropped loaded and cocked w/ safety off onto the hammer from 6' onto concrete repeatedly without firing), performance in adverse conditions (submersed in mud for 7 days, withdrawn and immediately fired 10 times with no reduction in accuracy or performance), and ruggedness (fired with obstruction lodged in barrel, then fired again, with minimal reduction in accuracy; also fired 10,000 in succession with no adverse results). Assuming this, I was hoping for advice/feedback on the following:

- I would like to have a rifle for larger game hunting/protection, and have been told a .22 caliber would not bring down anything larger than a rabbit. I have a read a lot that makes this seem true. Do you have any advice on a minimum caliber and possibly make/model of something that would perform best after extended use with very little maintenance/cleaning (ie. a hunting rifle with the same stress-testing qualities as the H & K)?

- I very much like the idea of the "double gun" (I hope I'm using that correctly, when there's shotgun barrel or two along with a rifle barrel). Is there a make/model that excels in low care performance, or is this combo similar to most other multi-function items; the more it can do, the crappier each function is?

- It seems to me that a couple things to stay on course with are materials used in construction (with synthetics favored over wood where there's a choice) and a caliber that is most universal. If I'm reading other forums right, this seems to be the 30.06 caliber. It would also b a good idea if it is relatively foolproof and ambidexterous, in case others in my party become the owner of the gun

If this is the type of thing where some aspect is always a trade-off with another aspect, I'd like the reliability even with no maintenance to be at the top of the list. I don't mind spending the money for a superb quality item, it just needs to be worth it. After about 2,500 rounds out of the USP 9, I can see I made the right decision with that. A comparable longarm, and I believe I'll have the solid projectiles category finished up but good.

Thanks for all your time, everyone, and for your participation on this website.

Two classic responses to this classic question: what exactly do you perceive putting holes into and why? Combination arms are always more expensive and are restricted to a single round in each barrel. The .30-06 is a very versatile round, and also one that takes training to use. Within the parameters of your criteria the various Browning and Winchester reproductions of the 1895 lever action will work. personally, I would stop worrying about cartridge availability. If you are going to drag 10 odd pounds of firearm around it makes no sense not to have 5+ boxes of ammunition for it on hand. Ask a WW2 vet who lugged an M1 Garand how many rounds he used daily with people shooting back at him. Gunfights simply are not all day affairs with brass piling around your ankles like a B17 waist gunner and if you can't down a large game animal in 2 rounds you will be cooking snails anyway.This opens up a whole new world of candidates. A superb firearm for self defense and hunting in abysmal conditions is the british SMLE. You have 10 rounds of a relatively mild cartridge that can be loaded to handle the biggest canadian moose and bear- which it does. The thing was built to survive the filth of trench warfare in WW1 and most importantly, a nice specimen may be had for pocket change compared to a brand new rifle. This saves a whole pile of money for all that other stuff I hope your assembling also. Sleeping bags and rainponchos are never as exciting as a knife or sidearm, but I'd rather have them anyday over my own coastal artillary battery.

My parents farm has used a .22 short to butcher cattle for generations and it usually brings the cow down on one shot. I have killed whitetail deer with a .22 hornet (minimum legal caliber in WV and first deer hunting rifle dad bought me when I was a kid). So I think it is quite possible to take down animals larger than a rabbit with a .22. The .22 hornet I have is a sawp for a shotghun barrel where you have to take out a screw and pull the barrel of and replace the other barrel with it and screw it back on. Kind of a PITA for a "survival" rifle. I still prefer my semi auto .22, If the first shot wouldn't take something down I could fill it full of 17 more. Gun and ammo are both lightweight compared to something like dads 30-06, I carried it for a day one deer season and was quite sore from the weight.

Having been around when cattle were being killed, I hate that "usually" put them down part of your message.

I think Chris is right on. A good combi gun is great in its place. One of my favorites is a savage 24 in 222 over 20. To go the other way, a good 'battle rifle' like the Enfield, Springfeild, or one of the many Mausers is nearly indestructable, and shoots a very competent round.

There was a firm that was retro-fitting SMLEs for a while, and I should have snagged one when I had the chance. They informed me that they can get no more raw product from Britain.

Go to a big gun shop, and ask if they have any military bolt guns.

But like Chris said, you need to decide what you are going to need to shoot. With all due respect, I would not rely upon a 22 Hornet for a deer, unless I knew I was good enough to guarantee a head shot. I am, but once a doe moved at just the wrong time, and I shot off her jaw with a Nosler out of a .257 Roberts. There ensued a very, very long day that was more painful for her than me, but which nonetheless hurt me in body and soul.

Something like this looks pretty interesting...

http://www.spartangunworks.com/spr94_centerfire.htm

30-06/308/223 for deer, 12 gauge for all manner of smaller critters. If you also add a .22 pistol, such as a Ruger Mk II, you should be ready to bag almost any game that you can imagine.

Of course, these are not any good for the targets that are trying to shoot you. I guess that there is no such thing as one "super-gun" than is perfect for defensive use, as well as being able to bag ANYTHING that is edible.

But the spartan looks like one of the most versatile food-getters around.

.223 Remington for white tail? Irrr..... OK, I'm better now.

.223 is just not suitable for white tail unless you are talking one of the tiny subspecies that you find on islands and such. It doesn't have the energy on target you need to put it down and not destroy a bunch of meat. A .30-30 or 7.62x39mm is really the lightest I like. You can go smaller, but it has to be faster; .243/6mm is about the smallest bore I'm likely to suggest.

In those weights, I suggest for most people a box-fed (detachable or internal, doesn't matter) pump or bolt action with a barrel not much over 20". If you want to go ultra-light, a good break action IS lighter, but it's defensive applications are very limited. (You picked a USP for your sidearm, so I'm guessing you want something with a defensive role.)

That being said, looking for deer might not be the best use of your time. You are more likely to find something smaller. There are ways to do this with a bigger rifle- adaptor cartridges, which let you fire a lower powered, usually pistol, cartridge of the same caliber from a bigger cartridge's chamber. .30-caliber is pretty much a must now. For example, I have adaptors for .30 Carbine into a .308, and 30 Mauser/Tokarev in .30-06. Or you can get someone to light load something for you. But, you will never have the right found in the chamber, and small game will be gone by the time you have the right one in. And adaptors have little finicky, easily lost bits, while cold loads look pretty much the same as a normal load.

Instead, I suggest a good .22. I own an AR-7, and I like it, but I accept it isn't as accurate. If I have the bulk, I'm more likely to select a simple bolt action .22LR or possibly a .22 Magnum. .22WMR would give you bunnies, woodchucks, muskrat on the beach, and the like.

And both of them are better if they hit in a fight than if you miss with a better round. .22 is a fraction of the cost of a the bigger centerfire rounds, which means you can practice more.

The best compromise round would be a hotter handgun round in a carbine. I like .44Mag, but other than the Ruger bolt action carbine, AFAIK there is only lever actions and breaks in this round. (Sorry, I just don't have the same faith in lever actions for durability as a lot of people do.) With a good softpoint, it will thump deer and small bear out to 50m, and if you can head shot or have lighter rounds you can bag bunnies and the like easily enough. (I might have the bunny round in the chamber, then the hotter one under it, so for bigger, slower, easier to hit things, you have a proper round pretty much at hand. But you have the same problem with the rounds looking a lot alike.)

That was a .22 short remember not an LR so it has a lot less power and sometimes the cow would move at the last second or once it had a real thick skull but for the most part a short was plenty so an LR would have no problem.
.22 hornet was fine, one was a shoulder shot and the other was a head shot. I have heard some saying that the normal 30-06 is too high powered for most deer as it destroys a lot of the meat, my little .22 hornet downed both just fine and last years head shot wasn't bad considering it had been 15 years since I shot a gun. I wouldn't mind having something more for deer hunting but have a list of things to buy that is too long already so I just realize the limitations of what I have and don't shoot unless I'm fairly close.

Have you seen the Velocitors from CCI? 183 muzzle ft-lbs in .22LR

Re: meat destruction -- that's why I do head shots. I haven't hunted for horns in over 30 years.

This whole issue of survival weapons is kind of misplaced, I think.

The selection of a proper weapon begins with (1) training, goes to (2) environment, and ends with (3) intended target

If you are asking this question, you aren't trained to shoot people, so scratch that except REAL close and last ditch. Where do you want to kill something? what range? Finally, what for you want to kill?

Honestly, you can find extremes of position on ballistic adequacy all over the place. A 22 Hornet on deer is, sorry, an extrenme position. By some minds, so is a .223, but because of bullet selection, not because of other factors.

In my environment, if you want to feed yourself with a gun, it is going to be with birds, or sqirrel, or rabbit. Deer you can do, but don't count on it ever day in every way.

I don't hunt for horns either, both I have gotten were doe.
22 Hornet is not extreme, I have known people who have taken plenty of deer with less, I have an uncle who is fits the stereotype WV'ian, he lives on his place back in the woods, in a house build with his own hands from trees he cut himself, hunts and fishes whenever he needs food weather its in season or not, the local DNR knows him and knows hes not hunting for horns either hes lived that way for years and doesn't hurt anyone so they overlook it. He has taken quite a few deer with a plain old .22lr, but then again hes a one bullet kill guy and never misses. He was talked into going to a national shooting competition one time when it come to WV and had never competed before but took first place.
Anyway a .22 hornet is certianly better than the shotgun slugs which is all that is leagal here in OH, those things I'd swear you could reach out your hand and catch the slug they are so slow and low powered.

For survival, you can take deer even if all you have is a .22 LR.... however this is clearly not the ideal round for the job! Along those lines, 5.56mm will certainly do the job. Again, generally frowned upon for recreational hunting, but when you're in a pinch like a survival situation, you use what you have. As mentioned though, small game is what you'll probably be nibbling off of mostly...

What you chose largely depends on what it's for. An M-6 Survival Rifle (.22 LR or .22 Hornet over .410) would be great if all you were using it for was hunting small to medium (deer) sized game. It might found a little lacking if you come across a bear, or an armed enemy of the two legged variety though!

You didn't mention expense, but a good milsurp bolt action (enfield, mosin nagant, etc) or an SKS, if you perfer semi automatic, are a couple of very reliable, very ruggid options that won't break the bank.

It all comes down to what you'll be using it for, and what floats your boat- some people like the full power rifles, some like intermediate powered rifles, some like lever actions, some like bolt actions, some demand something in semi auto... so on and so forth. If you really like the combo guns, and if the M-6 is on the smallish side for your tastes, there are companies that make combos in larger calibers. Savage, for instance, offers a combo gun with a 12 gauge on bottom, and a variety of rifle choices on top: http://www.savagearms.com/24f12.htm but it's expensive

I think the clear choice for survival situations is either an AK-47 or an AR-15 style rifle. Both are adequate for hunting, and both are reliable in rough field conditions (though the AK is significantly more durable than the AR). Obviously, both are excellent for personal protection. If you balk at owning a military style rifle, then my recommendation would be to purchase a pump action shotgun like the Mossberg 590 or the Remington 870, and purchase a combination of birdshot and slugs. You should have the bead sight on the shotgun replaced with a rifle-style V-notch or ghostring sight, for hunting and protective purposes.

Well, before you think you're going to be able to live off the land with your trusty survival rifle or shotgun, consider that if you've never killed, dressed and cooked an animal, the first time to do that isn't when you're standing in 33 degree rain, shivering and wondering how you're going to start a fire to cook a squirell - IF one ever comes by.

I'd like to chime in with the basic fact that the definition of a "survival gun" is a weapon used at a distance to kill game for food purposes. This is not the same as a defensive weapon, or even an offensive weapon, which is intended to shoot people.

Yes, you can hunt with a defensive or offensive weapon, but these tend to be larger, heavier guns like a Remington 870 Shotgun or any of the AR-15 Military rifles.

The combination guns - a rifle and a shotgun in one unit - are pretty neat as a survival gun. The M6 Scout, sadly no longer made, is one of my favorites. Mine is in .410/.22LR and it's pretty darn good for a simple gun.

I've also got an AR-7, which is a Semi-Auto .22. I like it for the "cool" factor - it is easily taken apart and all the parts fit inside the stock.
A more polished and solid gun is the Savage 24F in 12Ga over .223, a really nice gun.

Handguns are prolematic for survival situations. Many people suggest a long-barel .22, typically a Ruger, however I've found that "the authorities" tend to have issues with handguns that they don't have with a long gun. This has implications for your emergency kit.

One last thought - ALL guns need maintenance. ALL guns. I'm obsessive about cleaning my guns and storing them dry and STILL I found a little bit of rust on one of my guns yesterday. I nearly had a stroke.

While the 22 Hornet is certainly not reccommended as the ideal, or even minimum, deer rifle, it probably has accounted for a lot of deer. If the hunter is a careful shot at 100 yards or less, a head shot will drop a deer. I would suggest a heavier caliber for deer such as a 243 Winchester. It doesn't have a stiff recoil for an inexperianced shooter and is much more effective at a longer range. Fit it with a moderate power scope and you have a very good rifle.
I take exception to the statement that shotgun slugs are "slow and low powered". At reasonable range, the moderen 12 gauge sabot is an accurate and effective deer killer. A 385 grain slug at 1900 ft/sec is not something I'd want to reach out and catch, although they will put 3 shots into a target the size of your palm.

Well it is the recommended minimum in many states, a quick search of DNR rules showed that WV wasn't the only place that allwed it and it doesn't have to be a head shot either but yes, I agree that 100 years if definatly a limit.
Compared to somethng like a .410 with slugs the .22 hornet will more easily take a deer. I know a lot of kids start out with the .410 slug, I did too and it didn;t have much stopping power at all.

When i lived in Canada you would see the SMLE everywhere, usually the Mk III with the wood cut back. Every Indian and Eskimo in the NWT had (has) one, every pickup rack, every farmer. You could get one then for the cost of 3 boxes of ammo.

Rugged-totallly. Ammo is not so available in the USA but if the shtf no other ammo is likely to be easy to get either. Easy and cheap to stock up now.

Even the old "punkinballs" will take your fingers off to the elbow if you're foolish or unlucky enough to get in the way, that's a LOT of lead coming down range!!!

Troy

It's waaay overkill for this type of use, but I'd happily grab my FAL on my way out the door. The carbine version is of reasonable length, but the weight is a bit more than I'd want to carry for long distances (especially with other equipment and ammo). But despite these things, it has seen service all over the world in all types of climates. They tend to be extremely reliable, and can eat just about anything you feed them, thanks to the adjustable gas system. Spare parts used to be plentiful, but you'd have to check on this these days. DS Arms makes some excellent FALs. (In fact there are some currently in service in the Middle East with some of our SF guys.)

Besides, there is an online forum that is almost as fun as this one called the FALfiles. The folks there have tons of experience with these, and could help you more than I.

I just re-read your post, and it sounds like you are open to all types of long guns.

That said, a shotgun is arguably the best firearm in most survival situations, due to the variety of loads available. The police in my area seem to really like the Benelli offerings. The M4 is very nice.

Post deleted by ProGunOne

Afghan mujahadeen sniped soviet troops with Aks with longer range rifles- including ancient FLINTLOCKS. Lets keep the sturmgewehr discussions to a minimum please.

Chris, I ask this truly just because I wonder about it, no other reason.

You obviously know guns, you at times don't mind talking about them, and you've been in the service (USCG, right?) where I'd assume you handled some military rifles, yet you get a bit touchy when the talk turns to semi-autos like the AK or the AR.

Is it out of concern for the site's image that the box-fed, hi-cap guns turn you off?

Personally, I've got no horse in this race. I've owned both an AK and an SKS and admittedly got rid of them when they proved not terribly "interesting" per Col. Whelen's definition. The only rifle I own at the moment is a Ruger 10/22, though I did once own an M1 carbine that I thought was a handy and fun little gun.

Just wondering, not challenging your authority as a mod or anything.

I didn't catch the post before he edited it, but if deer or property invaders decide to snipe, it may become an issue <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Until then, they'll do what they're designed to do just fine; hit a man sized target out to the most common engagement ranges. IMO they're fine for the role, it comes down to personal preference.

un PC as it is to tote one.

My two cents are that anything you can learn to take apart and confidently clean and reassemble fits the bill. I started with a Mauser because they are very easy to understand, clean and safe to shoot. Replacing the stock with a fiberglass one would probably help the weight issue.

WHich brings up the subject of the smallest possible cleaning kit.

To me, the smallest possible cleaning kit would be:
1) Bore snake of the right size.
2) Toothbrush
3) Bottle of combined cleaner/oil
4) Scavenge some rags

Any better ideas for the smallest possible kit?

I wondered when someone was going to mention this. My personal favorite is what I call my poor man's assault rifle, a No. 5 "Jungle Carbine." Not nearly as accurate as a No.4, but light and easy to carry, and I usually hit what I am shooting at within 200 yards or so...

I moderate for the goals of ETS, Not Chris Kavanaugh's. Yes, firearms and their discussion is a valid aspect of 'survival.' Writing hypothetical updates of Mel Tappen is not, and it scares away many new guests allready wary of the 'survivalist' image. I am acquainted with Jan Libourel, well known firearms writer and editor. We both agree in most situations a gun is the LAST thing on our wish list. We are also bemused at people who buy a firearm for security and then parade the piece like a newborn son. I subscribe to Elmer Fudd- be wery,wery quiet about it. Ballistic discussions remind me of nervous youths rechecking their 'credentials' at public urinals against the competition. We can laugh at ourselves, I've seen people examining an entire store's stock of compasses to make sure they all point north. My nieghbor had so much stuff in his old chevy stationwagon the local homeboys invited him to a lowrider cruise <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> One ex G/F still talks to her therapist about my snowshoe collection <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. This is at worse funny, and the general audience can handle it <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> along with BOB,TEOTWAWKI,PSK etc. But firearm minutae is best taken to the many wonderfull firearm forums or discussed through PMS and emails once a common interest as been established. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As a self professed "gun nut" I must chime in here with some thoughts. Springfield Armory does in fact, still manufacture the little M-6 Scout rifle and they are neat as always. Another fantastic choice in a survival rifle would be the ruger Mini-30..basically a Mini-14 in the ubiquitious "AK-47" round the 7.62X39. These are so cheap that it's almost funny at some shows and stores how much of it a person can afford. It does hit with authority as Mr Kavanaugh can attest to, plus if really needed for game will kill deer and perhaps even larger game just fine. is it as good as a 338 Win Mag? No, but it's survival, and you can keep shooting until the game drops correct? These little handy rifles are light, and easy to shoot for all but the weakest people. Right now youi can even see these rifles slung across the backs of various LE units in New Orleans. Cops prefer them beecause they don't hardly cost what an AR-15 does, and are not prone to dirty failures as much, meaning you don't have to clean them that much. Yes, all guns do need care and this one is no different, but they work, and work well.

As to storing your guns dry martinfocazio, cut that out already...it's no wonder you found rust on a weapon. Buy yourrself a can of spray stuff, your choice, that displaces moisture. outers, Rem Oil, too many to list really. I live here in Alaska and fighting moisture here is a lesson in futility ometimes, but you CAN beat it..just don't be afraid to use the stuff, it won't hurt your weapons.

I recently picked up an Otis Tactical Cleaning Kit:
MidwayUSA

Has to be one of the smallest, well-equipped kits around. $35 and about the size of a filet mignon. Yum.

I can assure you that the M6 is no longer made - I called and confirmed this personally. I like the Mini-30, very cool.
As far as storing "dry" I mean a lubricated gun in a very dry box with one of those stick heater thingys.

Looks like it can do multiple sizes of guns with all those tips for the snake.
I bought one of the boresnakes recently and its nice because its sized to the gun, just need a place to carry it with the gun so you always have it.

Newbie, here's something that may interest you in Around The Campfire:
http://www.equipped.org/ubbthreads/showt...amp;amp;fpart=1

<img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Oh, those evil rifles you mention. I agree, Ruger is a good bang for your buck choice, magazine fed, NATO round, etc. Agreed on the AR being suseptable to gunking up. Here's one to check out that LazerMonkey posted about in Around The CampFire, SU-16 made by Kel-Tec. Neat little rifle. You "Gun Nuts" are all the same. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I saw these advertised in The American Hunter magazine. Looks like a pretty good deal. Collector grade for $300.00 including accessories:

http://www.mitchellsales.com/rifles/hist_m48/index.htm

Regards, Vince

Edit: Did a little more digging and it turns out these are nice rifles but maybe a bit overpriced.

A 12ga shotgun can cover a multitude of uses. You can hunt small game and brids with small shot, large game with large shot and slugs. It is a valuable for personal protection as well. It is incredibly low maintenance.

Please get some instruction before purchasing and using any firearm.

The Yugo 48s have been on the market for sometime considerably cheaper than Mitchell's asking price. Military 98s are commonly found in 8x57 which is underloaded in american cartridges ( liability with older actions) and in superb, but expensive loadings in most european commercial ammunition. 7x57s are harder to find and a superb choice regarding ammunition. The Belgian, or Argentine 7.65x54 was Paul Mauser's first cartridge in 98s and ironically basically a .308. Except for a very few .30-06s these are your caliber choices. All will serve the user well with the caveat of supply. Mausers are very collectable and you may pay a premium just for a national crest or variation. The only needed modifications are a carefull stoning of the trigger to improve creep and pull- retain the two stage triger, it is a very usefull feature in a survival weapon of this type, and improving the crude ladder sights. A simple filing will make a durable British broadleaf. MOJO sights makes a long relief peep aperture that fits the ladder mount and is very durable, or you can drill and tap for a lyman or Williams receiver unit. Brook's Range Alaska homesteaders use 8 mausers almost exclusively for moose and caribou. My longtime rig was a 7 mauser with the above modifications. I went to a DCM shoot with it and almost shot the high score of the day against a field of more contemporay firearms. I say almost, a gentleman in his 70s took top honours with a unmodified Krag <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> We compared rifles after. " what are you going to do with your Garand? Sell it, you? Sell it. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />"

I know what you mean. My father is 77 and can shoot rings around me. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I remember an article years ago in Guns and Ammo about the 7 X 57 Mauser. Evidently a guy named Bell used one to become the greatest elephant hunter of all time. I've wanted one ever since. I just got a Lend-Lease .303 British from a buddy though so the rest of my surplus rifle collection will have to wait.

Regards, Vince

I have a NEF handi rifle that I really like. Single shot break open with iron sights
in 30-30 caliber. Ammo anywhere like a 30-06 but lighter to carry a bunch of cartridges. Cheaper ammo too. With handloads of spitzer bullets it has a point
blank range for big game of about 250 yards. Compare to a 30-06 of about 325 yards.
1 phillips screw and you can remove the barrel for cleaning or carrying in a pack and I sent it back to the factory and they made a shotgun barrel that fits the
receiver too. They come in many calibers and the rifles cost about $200. Weight
of the rifle 7 lbs. Weight with the shot gun barrel mounted 5 1/2 lbs. Short
and well, handy. They also come in 22 hornet up through 450 marlin in centerfire.
A few models come with Stainless barrels with stainless/nickel receivers
and synthetic stocks. Heck they even have a model called "the Survivor"