Rethinking everything about B.O.B.

As I am sitting here watching the coverage of the NOLA disaster I have been rethinking everything. I live in an ignorant neighborhood in which the residents feel that the government would be there to care for everyone in the event something like this were to happen here. Out of 100 persons living here 98 of them are going to look to the authorities for assistance during a disaster of any kind. I need to get to work right now on putting together a better food bank for my family and keep it very quiet. The people that I associate with around here all know that I am a preparedness kind of guy and wonder how I would do in a situation like that in NO. I always thought that I would be fine but seeing the aftermath of what happened I am sadly mistaken. I am going to ask for advice from everyone here on what they feel would be needed for a similar situation as NOLA. I think this would actually be a post for the LTS section when it opens up but more importantly it is about being equipped to survive in an emergency situation. I saw a report on FOX news channel about the mental devastation this is causing to the children in NOLA. That is my biggest priority in any situation. I have an 8 year old son and a 6 year old daughter that I would want to get through any situation with as little trauma as possible. I do not want to shelter them from life but I do want to keep them protected. Candy and I are ramping up our efforts to make a new, improved food pantry equipped to feed the four of us and possibly one more person if they happen to come along (such as my father or my childrens mother if they are in town). I am trying to decide if I want to make boxes with specific meals inside and label them as so, seal them and store them so that I can easily rotate them and also to make it easier to access during a disaster. I know it will take up more room but I feel that this way will be better for us to prevent being lazy and "just using something and put it back later". I am wondering about water as of right now. I want to get some cases of individual water bottles for drinking and I also thought about putting some of them in boxes with foods that would require them for cooking such as spaghetti or tuna casserole. My thinking for this is as follows: If the water is as bad as in NOLA we still need to eat. We need water to cook food in and I want to eat as much normal food as possible. I was thinking about putting the following in a box; package of spaghetti noodles, two cans of sauce, two small bottles of water to boil and a can of sterno with matches. I was possibly going to throw in a couple of packages of placticware from Dennys as I can get them for free from there. What it would end up being is a gourmet style meal for four people prepacked and ready for cooking. Does this sound okay? I am watching FOX and Sheperd Smith. He made a comment that has irked me so badly that I need to go email him. FYI, I support him fully, but I think he is so caught up in the moment he is not thinking.

Two quick observations:

1. This situation underlines the fact that evacuation is REALLY important in the face of major hurricanes. What struck me about the evacuation footage I saw was how many partially empty vehicles were on the road and how I saw no trucks with people hanging all over them. Contrast that with evacuation footage from other parts of the world. The time for agressive measures (beg borrow, plead, commandeer) is when you are trying to leave, not after the strike.

2. Having adequate supplies is meaningless if your security is compromised. If predators can discover you and you have no means to defend your life or your provisions (which will become your life in approx 72 hrs.) your other preparations are for nought. We will see more lessons on this element of planning today and tonight as even the good people become more desperate.

Hi Recon,
If this situation does not make ALL of us rethink some things, not just BOB, I dont know what to say. My wife and I have been glued to the TV and CNN. I am so encouraged by the sacrifices of so many--the Coast Guard, SAR, firefighters, nurses, etc. And then, I get so angry at the looters (not for food & water) who are stealing clothes, shoes, guns, jewelry, etc. and then are doing their best to hurt and shoot at people!!!
Yesterday, my wife and I got a call to go help feed the rescue workers, Guard, SAR folks in Mississippi. We will be leaving in 10 days to Hattisburg and a center there to help for two weeks. I urge all ETS folks to help SOMEHOW. Don't assume everyone else will do it!

I would sit down with your son and daughter now and talk about what is happening. You don't need to force feed adulthood on them, but children need answers to questions we adults ignore or fail to see. Involve them in your planning. A power out drill and a test meal from your supplies( and forget the sterno, get some manner of small stove) will make the unfamiliar, the irregular a little more familiar, more regular in their impressionable minds.

As another reply said already your biggest worry will be confiscation of your supplies by others who think they deserve them more than you. I move bugging out a notch higher on the priority list. Are your children old enough to get into camping and boy/girl scouts? I would get them their own camping gear and make a place to store it all and start taking them out for a weekend of camping every so often. Make a couple surprise camping trips where everyone gets home from work/school and you grab your backpacks and gear and go. Then if something happens you grab your camping geat and bug out. I'm not saying hide whatever is happening or try to lie about it or anything like that but when something does happen and you say wife/kids we need to leave grab your camping gear they will have something familiar to them which will help calm the situation.
I have a small propane grill that we take to family reunions and such that everyone calls a camp grill because it is similar to the old coleman camp stoves. it was a replacement for our old big grill which took up too much garage space. So I pull out my normal grill and cook out through the summer and now have a means of cooking if we have no power and is portable if we have to bug out somewhere. Items like this are useful without being too "survivalist".

Sounds good to me, cowboy. Prepacked modules are something I swear by, be it EP or IT. I put all the cables needed, a mouse and a keyboard in a big plastic bag at work, and call it a set. At home, I do exactly what you are except for the water, and that's just becuase I have a couple of decent sources, even if they need boiling.

And that is for the normal groceries, btw. Nothing like getting set to make your really spiffy casserole, only to find out someone snagged your topping for a snack, becuase the components weren't labeled at a package.

I have been through a few periods of 3-4 days without power following storms, but have probably learned more from backpacking and camping.

First, spagethetti is a bad idea because it takes lots of water to cook and lots of heat to boil the water. For hot food the better bet is to look for Instant foods with instructions that say "add boiling water and stir"or "heat and serve". My kids like instant mashed potatoes better than real ones. (Children have weird taste buds.) Go with what your family will eat, but instant oatmeal, hot cocco mix, ramen noodles, instant soup mix are old backpacking standbys that are easy ways to get a little hot food. The coffee bags that look like tea bags work very well and are much better than instant coffee. (I do not know about you, but a hot cup of coffee can sure make the world look better to me.)

Sterno is OK to WARM up water and would work for instant foods. I have never tried it, but would hate to try to cook spaghetti with it. As Chris indicated, a single burner camping stove will work much better.

Make sure you have some food that can be eaten as is without cooking. Again, go with what the kids like. Some thoughts are canned fruit, apple sauce, pork and beans, and the old standby - peanut butter and jelly.

The packs of plastic forks, napkins, etc are a good idea.

Hey, I like instant potatos too, mix in some cheese and butter <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pork-n-beans are a good survival food, they can be eaten without cooking (hasn't harmed me yet anyway) as well as a lot of the cans or ham or chicken or tuna since they are precooked when they are canned.
I survived college on pop tarts and kids like those too

I'm looking into a way of storing food : 5 gallon buckets with tight lids (with rubber gaskets) to prevent moisture and microscopic organisms from having access to the content combined with an inner liner made of metallized foil (Mylar bags) to block out light. You have to seal the Mylar bag with a hot iron. You also could vacuum pack it. I found this method in the book Emergency food storage & survival handbook by Peggy Layton. It should be similar to this:

http://home.att.net/~ofuzzy1/mylar.htm

I have yet to find Mylar bags and empty 5 gallon pails with tight lids in the local stores... I'm just considering it and apparently it's a very good method of storing food but it's probably especially meant for storing grains though.

OK, my re-thinking happened a few months ago when I pared down by BOB a LOT to make room for more water. I realized that food is not nearly as important as water, and while it's no fun to be hungry, it won't kill you the way a lack of water will.

My view on the NOLA disaster is complex and some of my views would get me kicked off this forum, so I won't share them, other than to say much of my scenario planning presumes a mostly cooperative and helpful populace working together to some extent to help alleviate a bad situation.

I submit that this is still my view for my immediate area, however, I am forced to admit that the idea of going to a shelter has now been forever equated with the nightmare of the superdome.

I'd have to say that the GO in the GO bag the most important part. Getting out of the area, if you can, by any means possible. I don't really have more to add than that at this time.

Really some of the newer versions of instant mashed potatoes are not that bad. Much better than the suff I remember from the school lunch room so many years ago.

There is no end of easy to make items with good shelf life these days.

I cannot count the number of fishing trips where the classic lunch was crackers, sardines and Beanee Weanee's. I sort of like canned whole tomatoes right out of the can.

I'm beginning to think that "Bugging out early and far" is the trick - and then, when I want to do my disaster services stuff, travel back - at least my family is out of the area

DON'T move to a flood plain

As for storing food, the long term survival folks (OK - let's use the common term - the survivalists ) will tell you "Store what you eat, eat what you store" - aka, the food is constantly turning over, so it never goes bad. Your kids like instant mashed, no problem - you put a box (or 4) in storage (sealed) - you open one, you replace it with a new one - aka, you have a well stocked pantry where stuff is stored well. Apply that kind of thinking to everything

One interesting source for ideas like this are the LDS food co-ops. They believe in having a LOT of food in storage (I believe it's 6 months min, 2 years reccomended - but don't quote me - correct me if I'm wrong)

Our parents, or grandparents generation knew about things like canning and the like - learn
And remember, you don't have to buy it all at once - that would cost a fortune - an extra package of Mashed potatoes next time they go on sale, or canned veggies, or pasta, or.... Just buy $5-10 worth of stuff a week - that's all Before long, you have a LOT of stuff

I think it's worth noting too, that buying food packaged in large containers/cans isn't necessarily the best idea, unless you're prepared to repackage into smaller containers (bit of a hassle, and simply won't work with some products). And, of course, with some foodstuffs, once you've opened a [large] container, you're forced to consume the contents in short order, or refrigerate, the chances of which would be slim in a disaster.

As has been mentioned, look to backpacking-related resources for worthwhile food-related guidance. After all, backpacking is a form of "bugging out," just with everything on your back.

> new, improved food pantry

So you are planning to shelter in place, rather than bug out? For the current situation that would be the wrong choice.

> I know it will take up more room

In my experience ease of use is more important than bulk. But large pre-packed multi-packs are often easier.

> being lazy and "just using something and put it back later".

Buy what you eat and eat what you buy. The second part of that means you should be continually taking stuff from your store (and replacing it). That is why ease of use, and access, is so important. Every time I go to the supermarket, the stuff I buy goes to the bottom of the stack. I consume stuff off the top. So each week I am shuffling tins around.

> I want to eat as much normal food as possible.

Good - that's the first part - "buy what you eat". Comfort foods are good for morale. Morale is important for survival.

> individual water bottles for drinking and I also thought about putting some of them in boxes
> with foods that would require them for cooking

I don't know about that. I keep water separately and I'll decide at the time whether to use it for cooking or drinking. A lot will depend on circumstance; eg whether I've had a chance to fill the bath up before the mains supply gets compromised.

I can put a lot of really tasty and wholesome food in two cubic foot steel box, especially now with packaging inovations. Here's my 'recipe':

- Flexible packages of tuna, salmon, and chicken
- Instant rice, dried beans, dried peas & other legumes like lentils
- boullion in many flavors
- lots and lot of seasonings
- instant potatoes
- dried and partially dried fruits & vegetables [but you have to rotate them scrupulously] Things like sun dreid tomatoes can make all the difference in an otherwiswe boring dish
- carefully selected canned foods, picked for density and intensity, for example anchovies, sardines and other meats.
- so-called gourmet foods, like tomatoe paste and anchovie paste in tubes, oil packed black olives, preserved ginger, lots and lots of peppers, just by way of example
- loose tea, coffee [natch], other beverage mixes
- sugar, lots [the stuff put up in milk cartons stores really well]
- frying oil and olive oil
- vinegar
- powdered milk, for cooking only
- packaged sauce mixes

Thinks like jars of mayo keep, you just have to consume them or have low ambient temperatures or they will spoil.

All of the above are dense. There is little air in them, and the ingredients with water are pretty concentrated. In a seperate container keep the bulky and air filled options: crackers & wafers, motzas, that sort of thing. Potatoes and onions keep well, just rotate stocks.

For example, I can make a beautiful salade nicoise with nothing fresh, just tuna, anchovies, oil, sun dried tomatoes, olives. You can do a great chicken salad, as well. Soups and gravies on flavored rice or beans are a cinch. Throw in a few fresh ingredients, and there is no reason that you can't live well under adverse conditions, for quite some time.

In days gone by, I have eaten for days at a time out of my truck box and an Igloo water cooler, and liked it. I think that in a long term-survival situation communal rituals like meals are essential for morale. There will be more than enough suffering going around without eating beans for weeks at a time.

Let the flames begin.

A contrarian view -- I'd carry less water, and add several ways to purify water.

TRO

(And keep a large supply at home --20-50 liters -- for shelter in place)

Remember to put a little note in with your stove --DO NOT USE INSIDE -- Cooking releases Deadly Carbon Monoxide --Use only out side

tro

Single use condiment packs of peanut butter, mayo, ketchup, mustard, honey, jelly, coffee, tea, dry creamers, sugar, salt pepper, green relish, onions, cream cheese, crackers, butter, etc come in real handy....
visit connivance stores and fast food places and stock up.
Small containers of spices help

look at the one and 5 gal water storage bags on ebay........ The valve openings are large enough for grains and such. You can store several bags in a bucket or metal box

Good advice,

I would also like to add, be careful about long term storage of acidic foods, like salsa, spaghetti sauce, and certain fruits. It can and will eat through the can. Usually just a pin hole, but enough to taint the contents. Also, be careful of long term storage of fats, oils, or food that contains these ingredients. Some of these items are prone to going rancid. The big surprise to me was ramen noodles. I used to buy it by the case and use occasionally. Sometimes within 6 months the taste was a little off. Longer than that and it can get kinda nasty.

I buy in quantity on sale or at Costco. I do this to save money and to provide a suitable stash for family emergencies.

Buy in quantity. Do not buy more than you will realistically eat before items go bad. Date all items before putting in the pantry. Eat before it goes bad. Rotate your stock. Always eat the oldest dates first. Toss any food that is in bulged cans or has an odd odor.

Good luck, TR

Well I have learned a great deal from everyones input so far. I have nixed the spaghetti due to the long cook time. I would like to hear some input on mac-n-cheese for the kids. Candy says it takes as long as spaghetti so I am thinking about cans of chef-boyardee raviolis and similar things. Let me know and keep the ideas coming, puuuuhhhllllllllllease.

RE Planning on shelter in place - yeah, in this case, it was the wrong choice - but sometimes, it's the RIGHT choice too. By storing food - and doing it with afore thought - I can CHOOSE to stay, or grab, say a weeks worth of food/water, load it in my truck and "Be gone" - empty 5 gal buckets are GOOD for this - pack say, 2-3 days food in each - grab 2-3 buckets, which are watertight and vermin resistant, and your partly ready to go (water, clothes, documents, etc - you do have those too, I hope)

My basic "Hardship" 72 hr kit (aka, I'd live, but be one miserable cookie) is in my truck 24/7 - My families kits are in the house, simply because they are not usually with me

Based on experience with camp cooking, the main problems with pasta, unless you know a different way of cooking than I do, are:

A. It takes a large amount of water, that you have to drain off. Unless you drink the pasta water (yuck) you are using up the one thing you really need to conserve. I supose that if you are short of water, the pasta water could be added to soup or something.

B. Normally you heat water to a full boil and cook at a full boil for 8-10 minutes (depends on the pasta). That takes a good source of heat. I can do that on my old fashion Coleman stove (and have done so on camping trips where water was not an issue), but really doubt that you could get it done with Sterno. I have used Sterno to heat water, but it is slow.

My kids like the canned stuff and in a pinch it would be safe to eat without cooking. Kraft Easy Mac is an "instant" mac-n-cheese product that you just add water and microwave for about 3 minutes. It only uses the amount of water that is actually absorbed so there is no waste. It is a little more expensive than the regular mixes, but tastes about the same. My kids like it. I have not tried this, so do not trust me without a field test, but I think you can make it by just adding boiling water and letting it set for a few minutes.

You were thinking about putting together a box(s) of meals and mentioned adding fork/napkin packets. Also, consider paper/plastic cups, bowls and/or plates. With a shortage of water, they are easier to store than the water it would take to wash regular plates.

I am reminded of the Holiday Inn commercials. I am not a survival expert, but I have spent the night in the woods with cub scouts.

I recently bought a JetBoil. These things are amazing.

You realise that many of what to bug out with you now. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes -- for bug out, I like those big blue plastice tubs with the snap on lids. Can carry a lot of stuff in these.

tro

Good advice, P-man.

I'd also add bleach to the kit -- but store it away from food.

tro

I basically use Randjack's method for bob, 72 hr and car kits. My home storage (now being replaced, since it was lost in flooding recently) is "bulk" in bags (wheat, oats,) buckets and cans. Get HEAVY trash bag liners and boxes of powdered bleach - you can use these with 5 gal plastic buckets for waste containers.

Do NOT plan on filtering in a situation like this. You NEED stored water - there are too many chemicals to be sure you've filtered all of the bad stuff out (I'm talking chemicals here.)

In a "longer term: situation, a still may be a good choice, but with a fuel trade off, just storing water my be more effective.

In places out here in the desert, where you will probably still have a dry fuel source, the still becomes more realistic.

Fortunately, I live here in Mormon land (Utah) and know that a pretty good number of neighbors are prepped.

I also serve on the local LEPC just to keep up with all of the local plans and folks…

My choices for evac for me and my family range from 2 hours (10 hrs by dirt roads F-350 with two tanks) to Tucson, more than 10 hours away.

Stuff not important, only life important… (stolen and twisted from 5th Element)…

I've never given too much thought to bugging out. I have a bunch of stuff here at home and could probably get by for quite a while sheltering in place. Katrina has made me rethink that. Here in the middle of Colorado I really can't imagine a large scale natural disaster that would mandate bugging out. A forest fire for some parts of the state, but I'm suburban.

But if this site has taught me anything, it's to be prepared for anything. A disaster created by man in Denver could very well send a wave of lawlessness my way that I'd want to bug out from.

So I think I'm going to repackage my preparedness stuff into waterproof container buckets we could grab-n-go with if need be. I'm looking at a pile of empty "Scoop Away" kitty litter buckets sitting in the basement (man, those cats sure burn through a lot of that stuff!) I knew there must have been some good reason for keeping those things all along (the buckets, not the cats), and I just now figured out what that reason might be.

man, I have dozens of those buckets too. I was always wary of putting food in them though, don't know how the litter dust may affect it. Any suggestions on how to get them cleaned out real good?

As for me I will check out home brewery supply stores for white food grade buckets (used as fermenters) and maybe Mylar bags and oxygen absorbers and also 5 gallon polyethylene barrels with a spigot for water. I'm not sure where I could find other food grade stuff like giant clear plastic bags (maybe like food grade barrel liners) to use as transpiration bags in the food industry... I'm considering it anyway.

Frankie

"Any suggestions on how to get them cleaned out real good?"

Well, I wouldn't set an unwrapped sandwich in the bottom of one, but I'd think canned goods would be safe enough. No worse than the basement shelving where I currently store the cans.