Learning from Katrina...

What lessons can we learn from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?

Don't live in a place that's lower than sea level.

If you can get out, GO! Dead bodies can't defend anything from looters.

If you have property insurance and no flood insurance, make sure your house burns down right away.

If you're poor, your government really doesn't care if you live or die, so don't depend on them.

Sue <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

False bravado isn't worth squat, should you survive and have to stand on the roof and beg to be rescued because you were too stupid to leave when you were ordered to.

that is, if you are still breathing, have a roof to get to, and can stand on it......

These will sound harsh. They're not meant to be. Keep in mind, I live in Florida.

• If you live in a wood frame house in a hurricane prone area, you're betting It Won't Happen To You. You'll eventually lose that bet.
• If you live in a hurricane prone region and at a location close enough and low enough to be flooded by a normal storm surge, you're betting it Won't Happen To You. You'll eventually lose that bet.
• If you live behind dams, and brag that your city has the world's largest sump pump because without it you'd flood in normal conditions, well, you're dumb. That's not sustainable. Move.
• If you're going to ignore the above, and continue to live in a high risk area, at least be sensible about evacutating. You'll have to evacuate early and often. Yes, there will be a high false alarm rate. But you can't know which time will be The One, and evacuation is your only option since you can't shelter in place.
• If you're too old or too poor to rebuild, move or evacuate, at least try to prepare. It doesn't take fancy equipment to store water in old pop bottles and a little extra food.
• If you're too stubborn to rebuild, move, evacuate or prepare, you're probably not going to make it. Evolution in action.
• If you're reading this, good. You've come to the right place. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We won't know the "aftermath" of Katrina for several years. I can give an opinion as to the situation as I see it.

First of all, in the interest of full disclosure, New Orleans (as a matter of fact all of Lousiana) is one of my least favorite places on earth, and as much as the human suffering is horrible, I'm not that sorry to see the punishment of the hubris, arrogance and downright stupidity of building a city in a pit at the intersection of three major bodies of water in an area that routinely gets hurricanes.

That said, the words "dumb" "idiotic" "preventable" and all the other words I can find in the Thesaurus come to mind.

For example - the hospital that is flooding to the first floor - but the backup generator, rather than being on the roof, is on the ground - now it's not working. The people who ignored the warnings to leave. The fact that they CHARGED people to take a bus to the Superdome. The fact that the Superdome is the only practical shelter and it's a shelter of "last resort".

The fact that the levees were made of dirt and designed for a Cat 3 - at best.

More and more, I see that the idiocy of short-term thinking is the "root cause" here. How many thousands will die because of it?

Published December 2000:
Louisiana's marshlands, the only buffer for hurricanes that come out of the Gulf, are slipping into the ocean at an alarming rate. New search indicates that just one major hurricane could put New Orleans under water.

Whole article:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_15_11/ai_68642805#continue

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/wetlands/hurricane_print.html

"One of the things that's frustrating now for all of us in my business," explains Maestri, "is that if that Category Five Hurricane comes to New Orleans, 50,000 people could lose their lives. Now that is significantly larger than any estimates that we would have of individuals who might lose their lives from a terrorist attack. When you start to do that kind of calculus - and it's horrendous that you have to do that kind of calculus - it appears to those of us in emergency management, that the risk is much more real and much more significant, when you talk about hurricanes. I don't know that anybody, though, psychologically, has come to grip with that: that the French Quarter of New Orleans could be gone."

I read somewhere that people 'climbing' away from rising water moved into their attic, only to discover no way out - with water still rising. Someone said keep an ax in your attic in case you need to make an exit hole.

Let's try another direction, too:

This is definitely causing me to review my kits and plans here, making sure they are as realistic as possible. This isn't news to me, nor to most of us, but priorities seem to be:

• Evacuating via vehicle (with sheltering in place, evacuating on foot, evacuating via other transport as alternative possibilities), when given advance notice of a disaster
• Recovery from a disaster with no advance notice (an earthquake, a terrorist attack), starting with immediate safety and exit from danger if possible (pry bars, lights, masks, etc.), then medical treatment, then getting out of the area (to home, to an evacuation point)
• Knowing which of the above are likely in your particular area, and how the scenarios differ
• Good relationships with neighbors, friends and relatives, including plans to help each other out when evacuations are necessary
• Plans for dealing with long-term economic ramifications (savings, people you can count on, reserves of goods and items of value)
• Training of value to yourself, your family, your community (CERT, Ham skills, First Aid (e.g., I have a WFR certificate), backed up with practice

That's just a start. As most of us know, wilderness survival skills are not an exact match with everyday real-world survival skills; some of the kits we carry may need a rethinking. I think we can all get a lot from discussing what is going on here - including moving beyond the "get out of Dodge stuff" (while the precarious nature of New Orleans is an extreme example, frankly most major urban areas have some kind of natural disaster that can strike...and none are completely immune from man-made disasters such as urban unrest or terrorist actions).

How will you all adjust your thinking? How might this evolve as this story plays out?

- Steve

The numbers boggle:

4:21 P.M. - WWL-TV Reporter quotes officials as saying there may now be 60,000 people in the Superdome and that more people are still being urged to go there.

From WWLTV blog.

When you live in a disaster-prone area, don't get too attached to material goods that you cannot transport.

Try not to get too attached to disaster-prone areas. Better not to be there at all than to worry about how you're going to get out if you have to.

A 72-hour emergency kit is not enough in a major disaster.

One line from a news story caught my attention, "the water rose so fast some people didn't have time to put their shoes on." What the heck were they doing with their shoes off in the first place?? Geez.

Time and time again we are reminded that the best survival tool we carry is our brains.

Don't count on police or National Guardsmen to stop looters as they used to do. I have seen reports that they just stood there doing nothing while looters ransacked homes and businesses. I think these reports will just have the unfortunate effect of keeping more people at home guarding their belongings who would otherwise have evacuated.

Vince

I was a high school student in southwest Alabama in 1969 when Camille hit. As I watched Katrina on the Weather channel it was deja vu for me. You will hear this storm compared to Camille, but there is one big difference. In 1969 there was not near as much development on the Mississippi coast.

I was living near Savanah when Hugo hit Charleston, been closer than I wanted to be to several more storms and spent five years in Iowa where I learned a little about snow storms too.

Anyway, a few important things I have learned over the years are as follows:

1. Fill up the car and get gas for generators/chain saw when you first hear about the storm. If you wait until people start leaving you will face long gas lines and if you wait until after the storm you will not be able to get gas. If you are lucky and the storm does not hit, it is no loss. You can still use the gas.

2. When local officials say evacuate, be the first one on the road. If you live near water in a hurricane, do not wait to at least get out of low areas.

3. Keep food, flash lights and other basic supplies in the house all of the time. Check supplies early and restock before the rush. Keep some cash on hand. (In short, expect to have to live with what you have for a couple of weeks.)

4. If you plan on staying put fill up the bath tub, pots and pans with water before the storm hits. You will probably need it.

5. Have a good radio. After a storm you probably will be out of electricity for some period of time. A portable radio is your best bet to keep up with events. Do not count on phones, cell phones, TV or internet.

6. A few years back I had a pine tree on top of my house which did about $10 K in damages. ( no one got hurt) You can rebuild or repair. There is nothing in your home that is more valuable than your family.

7. Be careful after the storm. You have not begun to hear about it yet, but if this one is like the other ones I have been around the emergency rooms will soon begin to see a flood of chain saw, ax, broken limb, nail pucture and other assorted accidents.

The C5As and other big transports are really buzzing around here. what little military capacity we have left here seems to be mobiizing.
Last I heard Shrub has ordered Naval ships in to assist. 'bout time.

I think that many of the posters are being harsh. NO is one of my 2 or 3 favorite cities on the planet. I just can't make a living there. South LA is a wonderful place, and it does not surprise me that so many people choose to live there, and to stay there despite all.

South LA has a culture founded upon adversity. Many will die. That is the way of the world. The only truly sad part is that there are so many who are so impoverished that they never had a chance to contemplate any alternatives.

I have been thinking the same thing about putting an ax in the attic and leaving it there.

I have family living on the Gulf Coast, just a few miles up the coast on the flood plain. It wouldn't be a bad idea to place a small kit in the attic . This might even include a gallon of water, an ax, and I'm not sure what else.

I know it is absurd to stay behind when a killer storm is approaching, but there are also times when storms don't track exactly as predicted and people have little time to make good decisions.

Hope my post did not sound negative against the Big Easy. I grew up on the gulf coast and look foward to the day that I can again have a cup of coffee and begnets at the Cafe DuMond.

I think it is important for all of us to remember, " there but for the grace of God go I. "

San Francisco is built on fill dirt in Earth Quake central. While it is not as likely, New York City could be hit by a hurricane just as hard. (In fact Long Island was hit by a big one in 1938.) I seem to remember that it can snow in Chicago and I have heard the term "Tornado Alley" used in the Great Plains.

It does not matter where you live, nature can kill you. ETS is for eveyone.

It seems that when the chips are down, we are no better than our so-called primitive ancestors. When Mother Nature tears toward us, we must run.

When I was a child, I laughed because people used to think comets were harbingers of doom. The thought is still amusing, but I think even Neanderthals or Medieval villagers would have sense enough to run from a hurricane. At a certain point, instinct kicks in and tells you it's time to get out of Dodge. Our modern brains override that impulse -- sometimes to our detriment.

When push comes to shove, our structures are frail. Our buildings will crumble, as will our bridges. Our roads will wash out. Cell phone towers will fall. Electricity, the blood of modern telecommunications and most everything else, will fail.

The only thing you can count on is people's resilience in the face of adversity, and even that has its breaking point. Emotional strength has only so much elasticity.

-- Craig

There are probably a lot of reasons people don't leave. I have to wonder if part of the problem is that, depsite all the talking heads on the tv, nothing looks wrong. It depends on the hurricane, of course, but even 12 hours before landfall, the weather still looks fine. A bit breezy, but not out of the oridinary. There aren't any "run or die" signals. By the time it looks bad enough to want to run, it's too late.

Ron -- Execllent thinking on this

TRO

-Think early, think often.
-When it is bad, don't yell at the people who are trying to help. It doesn't help. (The Mayor complainging about the ACE.)
-Air stands over all the elements, but Water is the strongest. It destroyes Earth and Fire with equal ease, mock it not, for you are a puny mortal.
-Humanity's hubris before Nature is amazing. My mother would have strangled me if I treated her like we do Nature. One should not forget who is charge.

And finally....
-Everyone needs a little dutch boy, living in a closet or something, just in case. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

personally i feel bad for the innocents who are displaced or killed from these events.

but i have no pity or remore for the lowlife scum who die because its only nature (and hopefully a few well armed citizens and national guards) cleaning out the filth who take advantage of this situation to go rob gas stations and sneaker stores like animals.

if you need to steal food or fresh water to survive thats one thing but if you get caught stealing sneakers while peoples houses are being torn apart i can only wish them the most agonizing death.

Personally I don't think we are being harsh. I realize that many in New Orleans/Biloxi are poor and were unable to leave. For those, I do feel sorry. But many many were able and did not prepare. I saw a woman crying on fox news today, sitting in her suv -- crying somebody help us please. I'm sorry, I find it difficult to feel pity for someone like that. She obviously had the capability and means to leave, but didn't. We all live in areas that can be struck by tornados, earthquakes or some other natural disaster. The smart ones prepare and the rest get interviewed on cable news. It never ceases to amaze me that a lot of people only buy a few days of groceries at a time and then have to go out when a hurricane or snowstorm approaches and panic buy. It doesn't take a lot of time to prepare for an emergency, even one where you are sick and out of work for a few days. Many people don't even have over the counter aspirin in the house until they get a headache and have to go out. There is just no excuse for that kind of lack of preparation.

Not disagreeing with anything you said. But I had to laugh at myself when you got to the part about groceries on hand. I eat out nearly every meal. I think I have a jar of peanut butter. But no bread. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm one of the ones stocking up (not in a panic, but my cart might look like it) when the hurricane watch goes up. I have plenty of water stored, but no food. Yes, I know I should, but it'd just go bad... it's easier for me to buy it when I need it. Which, of course, leaves me starving if something should happen that isn't foreseeable.

My peeve is the looters.

If you have the ability to steal, you have the ability to help. If you are looting, you just nominated yourself for evolution.

Air stands over all the elements, but Water is the strongest. It destroyes Earth and Fire with equal ease, mock it not, for you are a puny mortal
Can I use this as my signature, I was really moved by it?

sure, why not

No offense Susan, but don't you live below the biggest active volcano in N. America? Same thing, a potential danger zone.

Doug's family members and ETS posters Cliff and brother Peanut are in NO and Loisianna. I am praying for them in all my manifestations of faith. Record oil prices went up even more. I'm walking a LOT lately. Robert Kennedy Jr wrote an insipid article of Nhah!,Nhah! we told you so about Global Warming and as an environmental radical I'm glad I shook Barry Goldwater's hand as a child and not JFKs. My old outfit has motor lifeboats cruising up the streets of New Orleans. Wierdest thing I ever did was tow a dead cow back into shore with hilarious repercussions. I can't imagine boatpushing in that mess.An arrogant, garritrooper, ex marine officer acquaintance is fuming because his son wants to join the USCG now and help people. www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com is allready putting together a flood emergency kit to market, merely peeling off the dusty labels from the earthquake,tornado,urban unrest labels of yesterday. lessons? Hurricanes and Tsunamis cause ripples all around the earth, literally and with us.

No offense, Widget!

But I wasn't totally stupid: I bought an acre & a house on high level ground (flood zone X -- the last place to flood). It's 60 miles as the crow flies from the volcano, and 35 miles from the nearest likely lahar flow (down the river valleys). It should be far enough from fast-moving projectiles. It's upwind (west) of the volcanos (not perfect -- could still get ash). I'm out of reach of tsunamis.

I could be cut off from going far by flood or ash fall. But it's still one of the safer places around western WA.

I have wood & a wood stove. I have water stored. I have some food stored... ate most of it while I was unemployed. I have a garden in season. I keep dog and cat food ahead of need. I'm a little short on cat litter, but if Rainier blows, I guess I could always use ash!

If there's a major quake, I have my tent & all the above.

But if there's a moving fire or a chemical spill, I'm outta here!

Sue

Go figure. Even the Shiites pilgrims removed their shoes to cross a bridge when hundreds died in a stampede in Iraq at about the same time.

You just never know about people.

One thing I was wondering today while watching the news tell about looters: Where are the looters putting their loot??? Inside the stolen submerged Mercedes?

I guess I just don't have a criminal mind.

Sue

"Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair."

If your thoughts are wandering down that path - that at some point you may end up on your roof in a flood - perhaps enough PFD's for each member of the family, plenty of line and a few rescue floatation devices would be in order.

i'll have to disagree with one of the posts that at least a 72 hour emergency kit would be of little use. if most people there had even a 24 hour emergency kit it would have helped. when you have nothing at all you're more likely to panic and the situation gets worse. if you have some sort of emergency backup, no matter how small, it would seem to make things at least a percentage better. i know i'd feel better if i had a small supply of water, medications, insect repellent, sun cover, etc. but then again, from my perspective its easy to speculate. but in my opinion, especially in high risk areas, especailly before a major storm, it would have helped if the local gov. at least tried to distribute a small provisions package (especailly to low income residents) just in case. but like i said, its easy for me to speculate. i can't even imagine what those people are going through.

That seems like a good idea.

When I was in college, peanut butter was survival food. Sounds to me like you just need to add a box of crackers to your jar of peanut butter.

I just try to keep a well stocked pantry of stuff I am going to eat anyway. Stock up on canned foods when they go on sale.

Two things that have been reinforced from this: (1) Most people have no idea the power of moving water, and (2) Clean water is (after air) the most precious stuff on earth.

I have rethought my day pack, adding 32 oz of water, for a total of 64 oz. Sure, it's heavy, but when you need it, you need it. In addition, I'm looking at ways to improve my BOB with stored water and purification methods.

Whenever I see some crisis on TV I always marvel that we have so much potable water we can afford to pour it on our lawns to make them greener. Well, other people do, anyway. My personal feeling is that you should never put anything on your lawn that makes it grow faster.

Now that thought brought a HUGE smile to my face. I know there is a ctually a criminal stupid enough to do that.

I can't figure that one out either. Maybe their house is still standing and they are going to add in a few tv's and then turn them in to insurance??
I can understand taking food/water, if the store is there and the owners gone and the food will just get thrown out anyway and I was stuck there without food/water then I would take it whereever I could find it from and come back someday later to pay for it.

Welcome aboard LED!

I agree, I saw many people who left town but have nothing I mean nothing. No water, no food, no gas, no way to fix a flat tire. You survived the imminent danger but now you must survive till you can get help. While it maybe true that a 72 hour won't allow staying put but will allow you to get the hell away from disaster. Water, food, cash, can keep you going for a while, then through the typical BOB stuff and you can at least be some what self sufficient and not be at the mercy of strangers.

Adam

LED, I think you may be referring to one of my previous responses. My exact quote was, "A 72-hour emergency kit is not enough in a major disaster."

I never said "a 72-hour emergency kit would be of little use".

I was trying to make the point that our esteemed governmental agencies and many other sources are stressing the need for people to be prepared for a three day emergency situation until relief can be delivered. This is utterly unrealistic in the event of a wdie-spread situation like what we are now facing in the Gulf Coast region.

Far better would be to have people be prepared for at least 7-10 days. Although even this will not be enough in the current situation, it would provide a far larger buffer for our emergency relief workers.

Hopefully, this crisis will teach our citizens and our government that we need to be much more careful in the future where we spend our precious resources.

While the contaminated salt water in the gulf can't be cleaned for drinking, in most cases a filter/ purifier is a light addition to your kit.

And if you know trouble is coming, having 2 dozen empty 2 liter bottles and filling them from the tap? Priceless.

Teacher RO

Hi,

Have you ever tried the method of distilling salty water or other impure water by collecting the steam on a cloth placed over the top of the container while it's boiling? You would have to use several cloths if possible, one after the other and lift them off the pot with a stick to avoid being scalded and when they have cooled you wring out the pure water in them. I guess the problem is it would take a lot of fuel.

Frankie

If there's gas, oil or alchohol (among other things) all you'll be doing is concentrating it in your distillate, unless you are very, very careful with your temperature regulation. When chemical contamination enters the water, all bets for easy purification are off. You're talking about charcoal filtration, chelation and scores of other techniques.

I see. It makes sense. Thanks.

Frankie

"It wouldn't be a bad idea to place a small kit in the attic . This might even include a gallon of water, an ax, and I'm not sure what else"

- Right now, I'm thinking a portipotti, a chainsaw and a canoe!!

BTW I think the most impossible water to treat is water containing nuclear radioactive fallout. In the event of a nuclear bomb, even rain water would not be safe...

Frankie

What about 5 gallon polyethylene barrels with a spigot used by those who make their own beer and wine like this:



It looks interesting for shelter-in-place supply of tap water that you rotate every 6 months (it's not bug-out water though...)

Frankie

amper,
sorry about that. i should have re-read the post. i have to agree with you that (at the very least) a mulit-day kit would be essential in a situation like this. apparently there are still some communities relief efforts haven't even gotten to. its almost unbelievable that this situation could go on this long in cities with modest populations. one can only imagine if this happened in a city with millions. i guess its a good reminder to be prepared and not expect outside assistance for a while if something major where to happen. thats actually a sobering realization.

the USN is sending several ships including a hospital ship to LO. The nice thing about big ships are their onboard water distillation capabilities. I was on one of the last boiler powered cutters. When we decommissioned the BATF actually regulated the scrap auction. Boilers make excellent liquor distillaries.

I'm very much like you. Live alone and tend to eat out a lot. When I eat at home I favor fresh stuff so there's rarely more than a couple of days worth of food in the kitchen.

That said, my "emergency closet" is full of canned and boxed stuff for an emergency. Once a year I replace it all and give last year's stuff to a charity that can make good use of it. Also, 10 gallons of drinking water and additional containers which can be filled quickly as needed.

I see... BATF stands for Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms right?

Frankie

I feel for the survivors, but I am hopeful that it will wake up some people that living below sea level is probably not smart.

My choctaw relatives in Pitcher keep the memory of Mississippi alive in folklore- when they're not dodging twisters. We live on a very active and sometimes violent planet. It's that stirring that made the soup of life. I just walked my place doing a earthquake prep inspection. If people outside the affected area get to hubris old whats his name may start another 40 days of rain and put a run on cubits of marine plywood.

Well Susan, at least you have a plan and you have the forethought to understand the possiblities! I think many of us are rethinking our lives and situations in more ways than one! I know I am trying to just cut costs for one thing. If I want to get to work everyday, I am going to have to cut costs so I can afford gasoline!
Anyway, I surely never intended to rile you up Susan! I am glad you are ready to deal with an emergency! I think we all need to work out some new plans! One of my friends often talks about being in a situation where he needs to protect family and property. I always thought he was over doing it, maybe not!! Take care!

I also posted most of this edited response to amper's ETS v. Long Term Survival thread, but wanted to share here also.

I don't want to sound too critical, as I believe many in NOLA are strapped for resources in the best times and any of us might be the victim of bad decision-making, bad info or bad luck but...

Seeing how the events have been playing out near the Gulf, my observations and thoughts have been on:
-- how Totally unprepared many of these unfortunate individuals are
-- how people refused to leave
-- how people seem unwilling to take responsibility for preparing for their own well-being
-- how the local, state and federal governments apparently didn't provide a means of evacuation for those who didn't have the resources or were too ill to leave BEFORE the storm
-- how the local, state and federal governments apparently didn't put enough forethought into responding to a disaster of this size and scope (and let’s face it, from a US geographical perspective, this is a relatively localized event – imagine the repercussions of a significant terrorist attack or natural disaster on two or three US cities at once)
-- how the local, state and federal governments were apparently not prepared to secure the safety of people and property immediately after the severe storm threat had passed (even though with an event like a hurricane they had several days to prepare and now must respond, not to mention the years ahead of time they should have been planning).
-- how even with all our government agencies, that we fund, there seems to be a total lack of coordination and leadership
-- how difficult it seems to be for people to remain calm after the events
-- how uninformed many of these victims seem to be (expressing dissatisfaction that the power is out, as opposed to understanding the dangers of electrocution if it were just turned back on)
-- how I’ll bet that many will be surprised that there are more repercussions yet to come – health issues as disease starts to spread, injuries that may arise from local critters (snakes, gators and crocs, etc)
-- how many of these unfortunate individuals seem to have some expectation that their lives should be able to return to “normal” overnight.
-- how incredulous the victims seem to be that it's difficult to provide food, water and shelter for tens of thousands of victims
-- how mean, violent and uncooperative people appear to be when being sheltered (even as I write this news channels are reporting about the shootings, fire-settings, muggings and rapes inside the Superdome, the lootings (not referring to food and water) and the shootings at rescuers in helicopters and boats outside the Superdome and in the remains of the city).
-- how even as uncomfortable as I’m sure life inside the Superdome is -- probably beyond my ability to comprehend -- many people are complaining about the taste of MREs, and leaks in the roof – as opposed to expressing any thankfulness that they are 1) alive, 2) being given food, water and shelter that they and others are paying for and 3) being given potential relocation to even better accommodations
-- how I can’t help but feeling that (in my uninformed opinion), it is likely that some small percentage of individuals who stayed behind, may have done so just to have the opportunity to loot, pillage and plunder.
-- how the rest of us will likely be paying indirectly through increases in taxes (or reduction in services), insurance premiums, gasoline prices, building materials, etc. for quite some time.
-- how, as other have said, people can be surprised when common sense and analysis have indicated that when one lives below sea-level, next to large bodies of water, this exact result was just a matter of when, not if

For those that believe, please join me in praying that the suffering will be minimized, but also that many will at least learn from the misfortune, for if they don't learn, then all the suffering may really be in vain.

I could go on and on ……and I’m sure many others could too. Just some initial thoughts that I felt the need to express.

Michael

This is a dispatch from New Orleans from Dr. Greg Henderson, a pathologist who recently moved from Wilmington:

Aug. 31, 2005

Thanks to all of you who have sent your notes of concern and your prayers. I am writing this note on Tuesday at 2 p.m.. I wanted to update all of you as to the situation here. I don't know how much information you are getting but I am certain it is more than we are getting. Be advised that almost everything I am telling you is from direct observation or rumor from reasonable sources. They are allowing limited internet access, so I hope to send this dispatch today.

Personally, my family and I are fine. My family is safe in Jackson, Miss., and I am now a temporary resident of the Ritz Carleton Hotel in New Orleans. I figured if it was my time to go, I wanted to go in a place with a good wine list. In addition, this hotel is in a very old building on Canal Street that could and did sustain little damage. Many of the other hotels sustained significant loss of windows, and we expect that many of the guests may be evacuated here.

Things were obviously bad yesterday, but they are much worse today. Overnight the water arrived. Now Canal Street (true to its origins) is indeed a canal. The first floor of all downtown buildings is underwater. I have heard that Charity Hospital and Tulane are limited in their ability to care for patients because of water. Ochsner is the only hospital that remains fully functional. However, I spoke with them today and they too are on generator and losing food and water fast.

The city now has no clean water, no sewerage system, no electricity, and no real communications. Bodies are still being recovered floating in the floods. We are worried about a cholera epidemic. Even the police are without effective communications. We have a group of armed police here with us at the hotel that is admirably trying to exert some local law enforcement. This is tough because looting is now rampant. Most of it is not malicious looting. These are poor and desperate people with no housing and no medical care and no food or water trying to take care of themselves and their families.

Unfortunately, the people are armed and dangerous. We hear gunshots frequently. Most of Canal street is occupied by armed looters who have a low threshold for discharging their weapons. We hear gunshots frequently. The looters are using makeshift boats made of pieces of styrofoam to access. We are still waiting for a significant national guard presence.

The health care situation here has dramatically worsened overnight. Many people in the hotel are elderly and small children. Many other guests have unusual diseases. ... There are (Infectious Disease) physicians in at this hotel attending an HIV confection. We have commandered the world famous French Quarter Bar to turn into an makeshift clinic. There is a team of about seven doctors and PAs and pharmacists. We anticipate that this will be the major medical facility in the central business district and French Quarter.

Our biggest adventure today was raiding the Walgreens on Canal under police escort. The pharmacy was dark and full of water. We basically scooped the entire drug sets into garbage bags and removed them.

All under police excort. The looters had to be held back at gunpoint. After a dose of prophylactic Cipro I hope to be fine.

In all we are faring well. We have set up a hospital in the the French Qarter bar in the hotel, and will start admitting patients today. Many will be from the hotel, but many will not. We are anticipating dealing with multiple medical problems, medications and and acute injuries. Infection and perhaps even cholera are anticipated major problems.

Food and water shortages are imminent.

The biggest question to all of us is where is the National Guard. We hear jet fignters and helicopters, but no real armed presence, and hence the rampant looting. There is no Red Cross and no Salvation Army.

In a sort of clichi way, this is an edifying experience. One is rapidly focused away from the transient and material to the bare necessities of life. It has been challenging to me to learn how to be a primary care phyisican. We are under martial law so return to our homes is impossible. I don't know how long it will be and this is my greatest fear. Despite it all, this is a soul-edifying experience. The greatest pain is to think about the loss. And how long the rebuid will take. And the horror of so many dead people.

PLEASE SEND THIS DISPATCH TO ALL YOU THING MAY BE INTERSTED IN A DISPATCH from the front. I will send more according to your interest. Hopefully their collective prayers will be answered. By the way, suture packs, sterile gloves and stethoscopes will be needed as the Ritz turns into a MASH.

Greg Henderson

Michael,

Dead on observations. Many good lessons there.

My observations --

-listen to the evacuation recomendations. Get out. 29 times out of 30 it will be unnecessary. Get out anyway

-a 72 hour kit may not be enough. 7 days may not be enough.
Food and water are cheap & plentiful -- BEFORE an event.

-Plan for security.

-The goverment is a huge, slow beast. New Orleans will become the wild west for a few days, then troops will assault the city.

--Plan for no fuel and power outages

and that's just the start,

Teacher RO

I find it darkly amusing that people who had nothing before expect the government to "fix" everything ... yes, the situation is horrible and is going to get a lot worse before we see even a glimmer of good news, but come on - if you're willing to wait for someone else to "fix things," what right do you have to any expectations at all?

You surprise me. Fallout is radioactive dust. I'd have thought you could just filter it out.

You call it punishment. I call it building a city in a major port with access to a river that runs straight north into the heart of the country. That's why NO was built in the first place. Trade. Oil comes in...goods and textiles go out. Don't blame people for being there...if it weren't for them...you're goods would cost even more than they do now.
Also, you're talking about a city that's so buried in culture, that it's hard to let go of it. Some of these families have been there for hundreds of years. Where are your people from? Can you trace back your roots and say that you were born in the same house your great-grandfather was born in? Would you care to? You'll have to forgive me if I can understand the southern mentality of family. No, I don't approve of everything that's happened... and I'd be leaving as soon as possible if I were in that situation. (I also wouldn't be just sitting there hoping that the government would "save" me.) But, I can understand why some of this has happened. I can at least understand how hard it is to leave the only place you've ever known. And that your family has revolved around for hundreds of years.

I agree that NO should have reinforced the levees decades ago. With today's technology, they should have made it so that the city could (for the most part) withstand a Cat5.

This is from the National Geographic News website.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/09/0902_050902_katrina_levees.html



Before you bash the system and call it punishment, look at every angle. This effects you as well as the survivors of this hurricane. Some of the refineries that supplies gas, are highly damaged. That same gas that NO (built in a pit) ships up river to the Northern States. Major cities are built on the coasts of this country so that we can import and export the goods that the country needs. I'm curious as to where you think NO should have been built. (remember: it was built with people using horses and carts before there were drills and nail guns)
That's enough of my rant. Sorry to have gone off like this.

Get ready ladies and gents...this is only going to get worse.

Wyn

Welcome to the forum!

Damn you said that well.

My great great grandfather built a house on homesteaded country -- State grant land, actually -- below a wonderfull cliff face that protected it from the north. Little did he know that the cliff face housed the largest rattlesnake den in the entire area. They lived with it. Hey, I'm here. So are the snakes.

Let's look at the big picture. Regardless of why they were stranded, these are American citizens. I hear a lot of people complaining about race, etc. Honestly, I think what we're seeing is a total incompetence on the part of local and perhaps federal government. As a white fellow from a middle-class suburban neighoborhood, I'm telling you we would be SOL if the SHTF around here.

I don't think it has anything to do with race, but rather the inability for local government to put the necessary forces into action in a timely manner. No one moves until the governor makes that call and she didn't. And the governor probably waits on local government, say a loud mouth mayor, and he didn't call. By the time they realized how deep in [censored] they were, it was too late. Knowing everything they did about their city and state and how volunerable it was, they should have reacted faster. They should have asked for federal assitance to evacuate the city. And if they did, then shame on the federal gov't. President Bush declared a state of emergency on Sunday, but all that does is permit funds and resources to be given. The governor needs to ask for it in order for the resources to go into motion.

One fella on here wrote about his ex-wife thinking he was cooky about keeping a gun, knife and light by his bed. And now, she's rethinking her position. This week, my wife and I will review my emergency plan and equipment, items that until now she really hasn't been exposed to.

One last note: God bless the Second Amendment. If people don't get it now, they never will. It's not the people, it's the circumstance. If you think for one minute that the middle-class white family down the street won't cut your throat for a bag of ice, you're kidding yourself. We are all physically capable of such actions, which means it's always a possibility.

We face the possibility of a terrorist attack every day and watching NO this week, I have zero confidence in government to assit in a timely manner. And quite frankly, to some extent, it's unfair to expect them at your door in 24 hours. If it takes a week to get federal assistance, I'm glad to wrap my arms around my "arms".

I, too, have seen something of a change in attitude from my wife concerning emergency preparations. Even in the face of 9/11, which nearly had a direct mortal impact on our family (oddly enough, it was a death in the family that saved one cousin from going to work in the WTC that day), she did not change her attitude about preparedness. One thing that made her open her eyes was when I went out to fill up her car with gas, and was unable to purchase premium fuel (her car has a turbo) at our local gas station. I ended up driving several miles away to another station, where I paid $3.58/gal to fill her car. Yesterday, I spent nearly $100 filling up both cars--this is in NJ, mind you, where gas taxes are comparatively low. Later on we're going to visit family in NYC. I can't wait to see how high gas prices are there! We both are old enough to remember the late 70's oil crisis.

All of this brings up some interesting points regarding weapon ownership and responsible handling. If all the responsible citizens are disarmed, then the only people left with weapons are the people not to be trusted with weapons. Given the complete lack of urgency the governmental agencies are displaying, it is not hard to see why New Orleans has decended into such a state. Even the Romans knew that the people must be kept fed to keep them pacified.

> God bless the Second Amendment.

I suppose I'm one of the ones who doesn't get it. One of the contributing factors to this disaster is that citizens have been shooting at the people trying to help them. Guns are so common in the US that your enforcement officers must assume everyone has one. So you get treated by them as dangerous enemy. This has hampered the relief effort. For example, when workers have dropped off water, they've not wanted to stay around long enough to see it is distributed, or even to tell anyone that the supplies are there at all.

The effect of adding more guns is to escalate the fear and violence. It doesn't help.

You don't get it?

How would you, in a similiar situation prevent me from taking from you whatever I want? See, me and my buddies here, we're hungry. And we're thirsty. And... we're bigger than you. So, if you'll just step back, you won't have to bleed. Thanks. Have a nice day.

You can't call the police (based on some reports, you may be defending yourself from the police). And if I take what you have in this situation, you'll most likely die. So... now what? Good thing you don't have a gun... wouldn't want to escalate the violence any.

Fact: there are guns in the US. Fact: those who use them for evil are themselves evil and don't buy registered guns from a dealer. Fact: is most cases and especially when TSHTF, police and government will not be there to protect US citizens. You can call 911, but you still have to wait. How will you protect yourself and your family until the police arrive?

The good (unarmed) people of NO became victims. If the looters couldn't find guns, they would have stabbed or stoned those people to death, because that what desperation (or evil) promotes. A gun is merely a tool of the act, the same as a rock. It just happens to be much more effective.

Before Chris pops a blood vessel, everyone, step back, sit down, and take a deep breath.

Brangdon, no offense, but you probably never will get it. I'm sorry.

Everyone else, get of his case. He's a subject, not a citizen. (No offense, B.) I'm seeing this issue in a lot of places I lurk. I lurk there becuase of stupidity and pointless, politically motivated bickering. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't post in other forums for the same reason.

*getting off my soap box* Every one, thank you for your patience. Chris, I know you'll want to chew on me for this, I'm ready.

Heh. I'm not on his case, or didn't mean to be.

I did try to make a case for having a weapon in as short a space as possible, since this issue can quickly get all snarled up with statistics and emotion.

Brangdon, no offense intended.

As many times as New Orleans has dodged the bullet they probably thought everything would be OK. They forgot that Chicken Little only has to be right ONCE!
gino

Absolutely no offense intended!!

I have never, and will never, tried to convince anyone to take up arms. It's not the only answer and is a very personal decision. I can debate issues all day long with someone who doesn't agree with me, as long as their point of view makes sense. Just be rational and we'll be ok : )

If one chooses to take up arms, it's a lifestyle. Keeping the weapon safely away, going to the range regulary, etc. I just can't imagine being left helpless in a time such as is happening in NO.

This is something I just don't understand! I don't understand how people can choose to not prepare even a little bit. Putting up a few cans of soup or tuna fish once a month isn't that difficult or expensive. I guess it's the mindset that 'the store is only down the street', never thinking one day it might not be (or be shopped out or just be impossible to get to).
In my basement is a 'heavy-duty' shelf I bought at Home Depot which has many canned items like soup, Chef Boyardee, vegetables, fruits, beans, cans of chicken & tuna, Spam and jars of spaghetti sauce, mayo, apple sauce, etc. In metal potato chip/popcorn cans I've got things like pasta (spaghetti, Ramen noodles, etc.) and boxed goods (macaroni & cheese, etc.) and anything else that's 'soft-packaged' and needs to be kept rodent-free. (I've got the word out to all my family and friends that I'll take any and all of those metal chip cans they'd care to give). Paper goods (toilet paper, paper towels, tissues, etc.), soap, shampoo, deodorant, shaving cream, detergent, bleach, etc. There are a few bottles of wine and cases of beer (for emergencies only! - Actually I keep a few bottles of wine on hard for the forgotten birthday gift). I've even got a few children's games in there too (they're both for emergencies and for a quick "Oops, I forgot" birthday gift). When I need something, I get it from downstairs. When 'downstairs' needs something, I get it from the store.
I have to say I've got this thing so loaded, the shelves are badly bending (they're made of 2' x 4' pieces of some kind of particle board, so I'm going to replace them with good heavy-duty 3/4-inch plywood)
I also have two 23,000 BTU kerosene 'convection' heaters (I bought them on sale at Home Depot for $77 bucks each! I doubt if they'll keep the whole house warm but I figure they'll keep it warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing if the main heater fails) and, so far, eight 5 gal. containers of kerosene, and two full 20 lb. bottles of propane for the propane grill and/or my camp stove (Propane bottles should NOT be kept in your basement!! - this is where I'd love to have a small outbuilding, for the propane, bottles of lamp fuel and 55 drums of kerosene and gasoline!).
On the other side of the basement are two 55 gallon drums of water. I got both drums for free from the local sodapop bottler. I just rinsed them out with hot water and then a little bleach, then filled them and added a preservative. I recently checked the water and it was still perfectly clear (They're the milky-white barrels, I'm thinking of changing them to the dark blue ones, to help keep light out).
That's for the 'input.' For the 'output', my next purchase is going to be a Thetford Portapotti. I'm going to get a big one that can take a lot of 'use' before it needs to be emptied. Worst case scenario - using a post hole digger out in the yard to make 'quickie' latrines. This is one area where an outhouse would really come in handy, but here in the city they're a no-go (at least not legally).
Also, to be fair, in my neighborhood, flooding really isn't a problem, but winter storms, among other things, are - not to mention the convenience of just walking downstairs to get something to eat. I use this stuff every day, keep it rotated, and replenish it as needed. It is no more expensive than buying something at the store. I bought all this stuff at the store - I just store it in my basement for a while before I eat it. This helps keep me out of trouble and keeps me from becoming a burden on someone else. - Dave.

Has anyone paid attention to what happened? When the winds died down (Kat left town) there wasn't hardly any flooding. It was over...done...finished.
What got everyone was THE LEVEE BROKE. That's where the majority of the water came from. Not the storm itself. I think that's been missed here. Yes...the levees were only supposed to stand up to a Cat 3....but truely, it wasn't until afterwards that they actually broke. Those levees could have gone a week after the storm. After everyone had actually returned home. Has anyone considered the rammifications of that? Thousands of people did what they were supposed to and left NO. Imagine the loss of life if they had returned and the levee had gone down. Gheez...it gives me the chills.

Wyn

wyntr, I get that. So plan should be: Get everyone out BEFORE the storm hits. After the storm the Army Corps of Engineers returns to complete a full assessment of the levee. It's not rocket science here.

What people forget is similar to the woman they talked with in Mississippi last night. She said, "My house stood up fine to Camille, so I figure I would ride out Katrina." Well, her house did stand up find to Camille, but what about the enormous stress that structure took during Camille. Did she ever think to have the house assessed after Camille.

People get in fender benders every day and don't realize that the integrity of their bumper has been compromised. Then when they get really whacked in an accident, it can be fatal.

FYI the term subject is now only applied to a sub-set of the former colonies.

> Brangdon, no offense intended.

None taken. Which isn't to say I agree with you or Joseywales. The question of whether the free availability of guns was a net benefit to the Katrina disaster is an important one and ought to be debated somewhere. But I understand if you don't want it here, so I won't respond to the specific points you both made.

brangdon, by freely available, you mean they broke into stores and stole them. But I get your meaning. And with regard to scenarios such as these, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Guns did make the situation worse.

However, in order to eliminate the possibility of thugs arming themselves, we would have to do away with all firearms, including hunt rifles, etc. And I don't believe that's realistic at this point. (I won't get into the Right to Bear arms, etc.)

But let's look at it from an economic standpoint. In the US, firearms, ammunition, hunting/shooting clothing and equipment is a multibillion dollar business. Heck, Cabela's retail store is like a small city in itself. How would we replace the jobs and income that exist as a result of this industry?

A society free of firearms might have been a great idea, if someone thought of it long ago. But this is where we're at now and we all need to figure out a way to deal with it. I don't know the answer, but until someone figures it out, I want to keep enjoying my sporting arms and the ability to protect my family if necessary.

The focus of the world is now on inner city NO, but there are a great, great many outlying parrrishes and rural communities throughout Mississippi in which order, cooperation, and mutual support has been the order of the day. For example, there has been a vast mobilization of support for Luke C over on the Outdoor Survival branch of Knifeforums. Luke has, in essence, set up a private, church based relief organization.

Back to the topic: there is no greater beliver in the Rule of Law than I, but it is a practical reality that the ever present threat of the use of firearms by property owners is a strong detererent to human predators. Sometimes power DOES grow out of the barrel of a gun.

I don't agree with that at all. At one time, we were a "society free of firearms." If you were small, old, female, etc. you pretty much did what the bigger or more numerous told you to do - or else. The gun changed that. It allowed the weak to stand up to the strong.

I fully understand people being angered by some of the evil being committed with guns, as I was, but that's the fault of the people committing the act, not the tool they choose to use. I heard about someone shooting at rescue personnel and just making a difficult and dangerous situation even worse. This type of person doesn't deserve anyone's respect or even mercy. They should be removed from the situation at once - quite likely by a police officer's rifle.

I, like many, was very disappointed to see the looting and other crap going on down there, but that was more a lack of what some would call personal or social responsibility than anything else. I don't mean the person taking food and water and such, that's absolutely understandable in a situation like this, but someone stealing jewelry or a television set has to be looked at in a different light. That person is just taking advantage of a bad situation for his own greed. That energy could have been put to better use in helping others. But, like it was said before, a situation like this brings out the best in people and the worst in people - it just depends on the person.

It's not that I don't want it here, but I don't own the board...

The gun ownership / use issue is a distraction from the real problems in New Orleans anyway. The illegal use of guns isn't the problem... it's a nuisance, yes. But remove guns from the picture and New Orleans is still a mess.

If anything, the current situation in New Orleans makes the case for gun ownership. In the absence of the structure and support provided by society, people revert. What recourse do the physically weak have in a situation like this? How else will they defend themselves?

Sure, bad people use guns. Bad people also drive cars. Occasionaly they use cars in the commision of a crime. But no one would seriously suggest banning cars just to keep them out of the hands of bad people. Why are guns different?

Unfortunatly there are so many people out there that think a gun/knife/other tool are not necessary in todays society except in the hands of LEO or military. I make the predition now that we will see many cities pass more strict gun control laws due to what happened in NO.

You're correct, water doesn't "pick up" radioactivity, that's why it's such a good barrior at reactors/power plants.

Troy

You're right, you just don't get it, but according to our Constitution, of which the Second Ammendment is a part, you have your right to think and say what you feel, at least, that is, UNDER our Constitution.

Troy

Thanks Groo, couldn't have said it better myself.

Troy

"If anything, the current situation in New Orleans makes the case for gun ownership. In the absence of the structure and support provided by society, people revert. What recourse do the physically weak have in a situation like this? How else will they defend themselves?"

Bingo!

The state and federal governements bared their a$$. And proved what many of us have known for a long time. Local, state, and federal authorities can't always be there to protect us, nor should they be exepcted to. How you choose to protect yourself and lvoed ones, is up to you. After all, it's a free country! At least it was when I woke up this morning.

Many thanks to those first drunken, inbread, toothless yahoos who to took up arms and gave this great nation her independence. They might have looked dumb, but they were smart enough to know they needed arms to free themselves.

Well, I did say might. A eutopia would be a geat idea. But it's not realistic.

The mayor sounded pretty angry about not getting help. Maybe he was looking for these officers to help out. Caution, this might make you ill!

http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/

If they have set up a system where a person is not permitted even the most reasonable form of self defence then yes they should be required to. Some cities don't even allow pepper spray, much less anything more effective.

I'm wondering what will happen after all this, I fear that a lot of cities will pass more antigun laws to prevent the evil guns from taking over in a disaster.
I also think a lot more people will start to realize just how little the .gov can do and begin to start to accept more responsibilty for themselves and start to keep proper defense guns in their homes.

That is the most bizarre piece of video I have ever seen. I don't know whether to thank you or not.

After watching the news for the past week we have decided to get more firepower and supplies. We are trying to decide between the mini 14 or the M14. I like them both, I want the M14 but it doesn't matter, tired of the Ak47 but they are cheap.

I've always wondered if anyone has ever fought those laws and won. This would be a big what if, but say you were in visiting a place that made it not legal to have any means to defend yourself and you were attacked and hurt/killed. Could your family make a court case that if you were able to carry your chosen defense weapon that you could have defended yourself and lived? Sure it would take a lot to proove that but I think it would be possible.
I was reminded of this because I was watching the discover channel last night and they played ads for their show about the people who fought back on the one plane on 9/11. Basically on all the other planes everyone sat still like they have been told, but what if they weren't told to sit still? What if it had been a policy of the airlines to always fight back no matter what, maybe another one or more planes crashing into the towers could have been prevented? It seems quite a libality to prevent people from having any means to defend themselves when its well known that the police can't be everywhere at once.

No. The states enjoy soveriegn immunity for police powers.

First, some (probably most) states have laws that prohibit suits againts the state for damages due to such things.

Also, there have been court cases where a person asked for police assistance, assistance did not show up or came very late and bad things happened. Courts have held that the government or its agents have no obligation to protect an individual. If I understand the concept right, a government agency's function is to provide for the general welfare of citizens, not to garentee the saftey of every individual.

At leat that is the way I understand it. I could be wrong.

I know in at least one court case the police lost due to not responding in a timely mannor and it turned out that it was due to differences in the clocks. This was the reason the company I worked for at the time incorporated time synching into all their e911 products because after that it became a requirement. So I know someone has won against the .gov in thet respect.
I could see not being able to make a case against a resturant or business which has posted a no waepons sign on the door or even against the airlines since you could choose to not enter the building or get on the plane. But in the case where the government forces an evacuation and then forces you to become defenseless you don't have that choice.

Hi all

Firstly I'd like to say that this would have to be one of the most interesting threads Ive read here.
Im usually a spectator in these forums for 2 reasons, firstly I have a very pitiful internet connection that doesn't allow me to do much, secondly I dont usually have much time, so I end up quickly scanning threads of interest but not much time to put back.
Down here at the bottom of Australia we dont usually get the full story in the media, and this is the first place I thought to turn to find out some of what is really going on.
I have to say that we are watching things in total amazement.
But I also have to admit a lot of ignorance on my part, because I dont really know a lot about the US.
I really dont understand exactly how your disaster response is supposed to work, or who has the responsibility to cover any particular aspect of a disaster that may happen.
But I do have 1 point that might be worth discussion from a cyclone (Aust. version of a Hurricane) that happen here.

When Cyclone 'Tracey' hit Darwin on Chistmas Eve. Darwin being the Capital City of the Northern Teritory. The Federal Government sent in the Army and gave a General total control.(not sure of exact rank so dont pull me up on details) Darwin is in a remote area of Australia, and a hard area to provide support.
The mandate given to the General was its your operation, coordinate everything. So in goes the Army and starts the rescue effort and provides total support and coordination across all military and civil authorities, until they could take over for them selves.
I cant give exact details of how this worked and what did exactly happen.
I am also the first to admit that I dont know if something like this would work in the US. It does seem logical to me that countries like the US, and Australia etc should have a response system inplace to put into action reguardless of the disaster or location or which of its citizens where involved.

One of my other thoughts in all this points back to the present government in Australia. I really dont have the confidence that I would be in any better situation if a disaster hit here now, because a lot has changed since Cyclone Tracey hit 30 years ago, hence I have been slowly trying to make some preparations for myself.
So I would like to also thank everyone for their posts on numerous threads I have read.
I started by thinking that this site had excellent info, them when I started reading these forums I realised that one of its biggest assets was the info and experience expressed here.

Thanks Wayne

The REAL QUESTION is what would have folks done to the President had he enforced mandatory evacuation from NO by the federal government, rather than leaving it up to the state and municipal govt's as he did...

Especially if the dikes hadn't failed....

It has been partially tested. I don't remeber very many details but IIRC a woman or her family sued the local police because they didn't protect her from her ex. The decision was that police protection was to the community, not a specific individual. It would be interesting to see the results of the means for self defense argument.

"what would have folks done to the President had he enforced mandatory evacuation from NO by the federal government"

In my opinion ... and I realize it's ONLY my opinion ... evacuation prior to an event should be the responsibility of the local government, not FEMA or any other federal agency. Help after the event might well fall to FEMA.

It's the city of New Orleans that should have known there were people who chose not to evacuate, and also people who could not evacuate for financial reasons or other. And it was New Orleans responsibility to identify these people and give them assistance in getting out ahead of the event. At least call for help AHEAD OF TIME in meeting this need. My take is that the city massively failed in this. Evacuation before the event would have been a cinch compared to trying to drive hundreds of busses through 10 feet of water down destroyed highways afterwards. If the people were gone, New Orleans would have still been destroyed, but it certainly wouldn't have been the human tragedy we're seeing now.

I see the New Orleans mayor in the news screaming at others and blaming them for lack of help and it makes me angry. Yes, the after-the-event response might have been better, but it would not have been so urgent if the locals had done their job in the first place. I can't imagine how anyone can hold the feds accountable for not barging into their city and forcing the people out before the storm. On the contrary - I imagine the mayor would have been screaming bloody murder if the feds had even tried.

I see loads of misinformation here, not your fault. The media has been spreading a load of poop to the world on this one. A few corrections are in order.

The levee that failed on the 17th street canal was concrete center with earth on both sides. And that section was just redone within the last few years. My parents lived maybe a half mile at best from the break, and I used to work down there. Until last week that is. The bridge a hundred yards from the break where the president was a few days ago? Both my folks and I crossed the canal there while evacuating, 36 hours before the storm. I grew up playing on that levee.

As far as the evacuation order, it was given locally, and as soon as they could. After the evacuation for Ivan, with it's screw ups, the state and local plans were redone. What it called for was a 50 hour plan, with the lowest lying parishes (counties) going first. Katrina's track started to be projected for here late Friday with low confidence. Saturday morning confidence grew, and the lowest parishes (plaquemines and St. Bernard) ordered evac at 9 AM. Jefferson and Orleans (New Orleans) followed the plan, and ordered evac at 4 PM. This time the evac went mostly smoothly.

What was lacking from the Dome or Convention Center was not food or water, but information. You can live for a while without the former, but lack of information causes panic, and the subsequent anarchy. Our Governor, Mrs. Doubtfire, should have had people there, or gone herself to calm the situation, not hold another bloody press conference.

Yes, we are threatened by mother nature here. Hurricanes affect the Gulf and East coasts, the west coast earthquakes, midwest tornados, northern blizzards, southwest desert, volcanos in hawaii. Instead of complaining about our situation, maybe join the thousands from around the country risking life and limb to help.

The media has overplayed much of the situation. Don't get me wrong, it's been damn bad. Some of those bodies at the dome and elsewhere did not die there. Routine deaths still happened, and family members brought the bodies there, where they could be identified and safe, rather than leave them to the flood.

Yes, some of our people behaved badly. When faced with the greatest natural disaster in this nation's history, they behaved badly. Anywhere else in the English speaking world, if there's a sports championship, or loss, there are riots and arson and looting. It took a titanic disaster to cause that here. We hold, and will hold, the greatest, largest street party in the world annually with very few problems. Anyplace else that tries to hold Mardi Gras in the US, they get riots. "civilized" LA went up in flames over a court verdict a few years ago. All things considered, we've done Damn well, thank you very much.

The west bank of the river is battered but shoul be back in operation in a few weeks, businesses all over the area, less Orleans, Plaquemins and St. Bernard parishes, are reopening. The northshore is recovering nicely. Estimates were from two weeks to eight weeks to get power back in my area. We're ten days in, and over 70% of the notrhshore has power, almost all of Baton Rouge, and even parts of the city itself. I still don't because the line here only supplies four homes and has six breaks in it. All the town of Amite, and the main roads have power.

As far as the firearm debate, they can be a bad idea. Unless you get proper training, and practice regularly, you will probably be more of a danger to yourself and your loved ones. Many people who have legal concealed carry permits show up to requalify with weapons that obviously haven't been out of the case for years and the owner obviously hasn't handled or practiced safe weapons handling for those four years either. Scary.

Peanut

Did you hear anything about this? From a post on BoingBoing:

10:57 Raw transcript of comments by NOLA evacuee Clara Barthelemy: "The 17th street levee was bombed by the Army Corps of Engineers to save the more valuable real estate in the city… to keep the French Quarter protected, the ninth ward was sacrificed… people are afraid to speak out… everyone who was near there heard the bombings… they bombed seven times. That's why they didn't fix the levees… 20 feet of water. Gators. People dying in water. They let the parishes go, not the city center. Tourist trap was saved over human life. A six year old girl was raped in here.. 9 year old boy killed. A man in the shower beaten. No hot food. No help for elderly."

All of these cases arefact bound, but I will submit to you: Vaquera v. Salas, 810 S.W.2d 456 (Tex.App. - San Antonio 1991, writ denied) which is a case I LOST. In that case, the police department was absolved of liability despite having a cop stop a drunk driver, and letting him go, and who went on to maim my client. Hello. Does not clear and present danger have any meaning? Not in Texas. Not when it come to a governmental entity.

Govenmental immunity challegenges have been the better part of my carreer. Dont' get me started. See City of San Antonio v. Rodriguez, 810 S.W.2d 405 (Tex.App. - San Antonio 1991) reversed, City of San Antonio v. Rodriguez, 828 S.W.2d 417 (Tex. 1992). City of San Antonio v. Rodriguez, 856 S.W.2d 552 (Tex.App. - San Antonio 1993, writ denied) following grant of writ and argument.

Yes, I got the largest verdict in history against a municipality, but the law has changed. In any disaster event, do not look for compensation when any govenmetal entity screws up.

Yes, there is some authority to the contrary in Califormia, but the tide has turened, and I would not count on that being good law.

Wecome to the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. Revolution. Oops. Political. Spank me.

But to cut to the chase on this thing, I have had cases where there were decades of governmental neglect of infrastructure upgrades, as in NO, but sorry folks, it is not actionable in a civil court in the majority of states.

I digress. I am somewhat passionate on this subject. Governmental inaction pisses me off.

Groo, it didn't happen like that. the geography is all wrong. The 17th street canal divides Orleans and Jefferson Parishes. And the lower 9 is across the city from Lakeview. The water rushed from Lakeview (right by Lake Ponchatrain) through the city and further into the lower 9. The reason the Quarter didn't flood is because it is a natural high point, that's why Iberville and Bienville Le Moyne decided to put the city there back in 1718. Also the problem was with the lake, not the river. They did dynamite levees in 1927 to save the city but that was to ease pressure on the river. and they sacrificed sparsely populates Plaquemines parish, not crowded neighborhoods. If this alleged incident occurred, it would be trying to lower an 800 square mile lake into a 25 square mile city. Sorry, but the math and maps don't agree .

Peanut

Ok. Thanks! I know the situation is really bad, but there are going to be incorrect reports which make it sound even worse. It's hard to know what to believe, and since I don't know New Orleans geography at all...

Give us a few months, come on down, and I'll show you the geography. You buy the beer.

Peanut

Deal! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your drunk driver case is similar to the one I was thinking of.



If it isn't actionable as a civil case then what about criminal? I would certainly think that a case could be made for fraud, theft, or depraved indifference. There were school & transit buses in NO that could have made at least one trip loaded with evacuees that wanted to get out & couldn't. They could have set up a share a ride system before this happened.

Yes. In the Criminal Court I was able to get the Court to compel the payment of $50,000.00 to her in mandatory restitution as a condition of probation. That covered her medical expenses, and 6 months of her wage loss [she was permanently disabled]. He could not reasonably have been expected to pay more from his pocket or pension, because as a result of this incident he was discharged from the Army. The criminal system cannot, with rare exceptions, trigger insurance coverage.

But to the thrust of your question, if I understand correctly, what is the scope of potential liability for governmental entities and authorities?

Regreatably, there is little. This has been the hallmark of my carreer: going after government. There is absolutely no such thing as as a viable cause of action against individual state officials in the majority of states, the exceptions being California and New York in the past, but no more under current law.

The only viable causes of action are when a govenmental officail acts outside the scope of their authority, or in the lingo, ultra vires. There has never been, that I know of, an ultra vires liabily case in Texas. There is a New York case that arose from prosecutorial misconduct, but I think it was reversed on appeal.

Soveriegn immunitiy paints with a very, very, broad brush.

That was exactly the direction I was thinking.

Listen to National Geographic articles from one year ago.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

I think it's worth noting that almost all of the problems described are occuring almost exclusively within the NO metro area. In NO you have people who wanted to leave but were abandoned by their mayor as well as the "oh so newsworthy" looters, thugs and crybabies. In the other equally hard hit areas of Louisana and Mississippi, the people who stayed and survived came together to help each other out.

Probably the most important lessons (IMHO):

1. In a major disaster, you cannot rely on any government, volunteer or commercial services for at least a week.

2. It is an absolute necessity for politicians, at all levels, to seek out compentent emergency managers and then listen to them.

3. Since September 11, 2001, the U.S. Fed Gov has been total immersed in the reponse to another large scale terrorist attack and disaster prepardiness has been treated almost as an afterthought. The U.S. "Department of Homeland Security" needs to be realigned. It should become the "Department of Emergency Prepardiness" wiith an "Office of Homeland Security" and an "Office of Disaster Prepardiness". There are many areas that overlap, but the basic concepts behind both are very different. Keeping them in the same department will allow them to work together in the overlapping areas without too much institutional conflict.

4. "Turf", bearuracy and red-tape. There are so many examples where efforts to help people were thwarted by this crap it's sickening.

Oh well, I was going to try to be brief...

Stay Safe,

Jim

Well one thing that in my opinion very much worsened the situation was the officials insistence on retaining central control of everything and basically not letting anything happen that was not in the "chain of command" instead of letting people do what had to be done. Another contributing factor was the reluctance of the NO officials to provide a coherent evacuation plan well ahead of Katrina, one that used such things as buses, trains and barges. The stories of people showing up to help and being told "No Thanks" just illustrates the stupidity of FEMA officials and whoever else was making decisions (if anybody), one of the worst things one can do in an emergency is to hesitate, often a poor decision is better than none. One of the worst aspects of this would be the fact that it had ALREADY happened with Andrew in 1992; same thing, nobody prepared and when it was over nobody had any idea what to do. Again nobody knew where people who needed help where and people who came to help were turned away and told " No Thanks".
(This last is from the book 'The most dangerous place on earth') Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.