How does one choose power generator

Posted by: picard120

How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 07:19 PM

How does one choose a good power generator to survive through hurricane? I did search the forum but there is no info how to select a power generator. There are many models and brands that it is confusing for regular consumer. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: duckear

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 07:39 PM

A few thoughts

Add up the electrical requirements (amps) of what you want to run, the add 50-100% and pick one. For example, if something is rated at 15amps, it may require much more at startup. Thing you may want to run. Fridge, freezer, fans on heating system, water pumps, electric blankets, microwave, lights. You have to list your priorities and go from there. Usually what you "have" to have powered vs what you can afford to power (ie size of genset) are wildly different. No two families are the same. 3000W may be great for a single guy, but won't touch the needs of a family of six.


Gasoline and NG are common and cheaper, but these gensets have a shorter life expectancy; a diesel genset is expensive but lasts.

You can either run extention cords to what you need, or have the gen wired into your house, yet isolated so it doesn't send juice back to the wires and electrocute the guy trying to restore your service.

You need to run it periodically.

Having power when your neighbors don't, you need to be discreet. They will come like moths to a light. Maybe good, maybe bad.

Go to the survival section of AR15.com and ask around. There are some good threads there that answer your question in detail.
Posted by: frenchy

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 07:59 PM

IIRC , there have been numerous threads on the subject, like this one or like this other one. .

Remember to extend the search range (default = 1 week only).

But maybe you did found these threads, and the info you are looking for is not included......
Posted by: picard120

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 07:59 PM

Isn't AR15.com a gun forum? I just check the site a few minutes ago. the forum discuss about guns, ammo. I checked the general forum too but there is no thread about generator.
Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 09:04 PM

This all good advice, but you can also do it the way I did...

Buy at least a 5000 watt, gasoline powered generator light enough you can move it around by yourself. Done.

A fancier generator will have more features, all of which are the nice to have category. A Honda engine will run more quietly (so I'm told, I only have the one generator, so I don't know). I plan to run mine outside on the patio, shut it down, wait for it to cool down, then wheel it back in the garage (theft).

If you're pressed for time, especially, any generator is better than no generator. The generator you can afford is better than the one you're saving up for, etc.

Also consider buying an inverter. You can run small electrical stuff without having to set the generator up.


Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 09:30 PM

While it's been discussed here before, I'll try to make a summary that will help you out.

First of all, you need to know what kinds of loads you're going to need to power. This will be your primary concern. If you want to run your whole house, with air conditioning and all the lights and all that, then you'll need a fairly large "backup" system. These are big, permanently installed generators that often use propane or natual gas as a power source. These are expensive, costing anywhere from $3,000 for a smaller system up to $20,000 for a large system. They have automatic "cutover" switches that fire up the generator a few seconds after a power failure. They have a decent run time, meaning that if you have natural gas, it will run as long as the gas is flowing, and if you have propane, you can get a few days out of a large tank.

On the other hand if you want to run only a few "critical" loads, you'll probably do fine with a portable generator that you can connect to your house as needed. for example, in my house, I have a well, a septic pump, a fridge and a freezer as well as an oil furnace. These, plus a light or two, are my "critical" loads, so what I did was go to all of the devices and figure out how much power they needed to run.

This isn't too hard. You can do it the easy way, which is to count up the amps on all the breakers you want to power and multiply by 120, then multiply by 0.60 to get the approximate size generator you'll need, as rated in watts. This assumes that all your motors won't be starting up at once - which they probobly won't.

For example, my well pump is on two twenty amp breakers.
My septic pump is on a 15 amp breaker
My fridge is on a 15 amp breaker
My freezer is on a 15 amp breaker
The lighting I want to use is on a 15 amp breaker.

So I add the amps - 20+20+15+15+15+15 = 100
100 * 120 = 12,000
12,000 * 0.60 = 7,200

So, it looks like I'll need a 7,200 watt generator or so. There are 7,000 watt generators, but it's not a good idea to go LOWER than your estimated load - always go a bit HIGHER if you can, or manage your loads so that you don't have the well turned on when the fridge is on. Actually, this is what I do, because our generator is rated for a constant 3,500 watts total, but I use a transfer switch and manage what's on at any given time. Works fine.

If you hook up a generator to your electric system in the house you MUST install a transfer switch.


Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 09:51 PM

Your method may be ok for inductive loads, but it way overestimates the power required for resistive loads (are you really going to use 120 * 15 * .6 = 1080 watts of lighting?).

And you don't have to run everything at once. Run the fridge till the compressor stops, then don't open the door. Buy a window AC unit ($110 gets you one with a remote control!), and just cool one room, etc. You don't need a 7000 W generator. Sure, it's nice to have and will be most convenient, but you can get by with less if you'll only run a few things at a time.
Posted by: picard120

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 10:10 PM

Honda has generator with built in inverter feature. How durable are Honda generators? Do they last at least 5yrs?
Posted by: duckear

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 10:13 PM

It is guns, politics and about everything else. 50,000 members with a common interest in guns and after that who knows. This is a link to the survival forum. Bear in mind, it is not as genteel as this forum. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

AR15.com Survival Forum
Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 10:24 PM

Careful... the inverter I'm talking about allows you to run 110V appliances off your car's battery. I've seen a decent one at Costco for $60 that would run my computer, or a small tv / radio / etc.

Previous threads on here have good things to say about Honda engines and Honda generators. I have a generator which is not made by Honda, but which has a honda engine.

I don't know what you situation is, but if you're on a budget, I'd buy the most generator I could for the money, then be careful about how much stuff you try to run at one time. Few people have the financial means to buy a generator that will let them run everything they'd like to run all at once. And even if you can afford it, you have to remember that years will go by that you won't use it AT ALL. So there your money sits, collecting dust.

(My 6000W generator from last year smirks at me each time I get in the car. Power failed during Charlie. So I bought a generator. The power hasn't failed since, and that was with two more near hits after Charlie. *sigh*)
Posted by: picard120

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 10:30 PM

Honda EU generators have built in inverter. Does this mean I don't have to buy an inverter? Can I plug the generator power cable directly to the apt power switch? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/29/05 10:36 PM

No.

First, as martinfocazio says, NEVER, EVER plug a generator into the wall. You MUST plug EACH device you want to run INTO THE GENERATOR.

Second, don't confuse the inverter on the generator with the inverter I'm talking about. Yes, they're both called the same thing, but they aren't the same.

Here's an example of the type of inverter I'm talking about:



Click on the picture to get more information. Note that these will only power small stuff... a small tv, a laptop computer, a radio, etc. But they can be a lot more convenient than running a generator all the time.


Posted by: jshannon

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 12:57 AM

The RV people seem to overwhelmingly pick the Honda generators.
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 01:14 AM

If you're living in an apartment building I don't think a generator would be a good idea. Is there some special medical reason, like a ventilator, that would require 24/7 emergency power?

In wide-spread power outages, generators can be trouble magnets, as I have first-hand experience with. One needs to plan ahead carefully to reduce the potential problems and that's way beyond this conversation.

We do have a generator and we have seriously used it for emergency power twice. Of the consumer grade generators, I completely agree that the ones with Honda engines are in the upper range of overall quality, particularly those gensets made by Honda. I've used those "commercially" around the world and like them. But for all the time it probably sits in the garage doing nothing for ahomeowner, that would be an expensive choice. We have a conventional US-made 4kw genset in the garage and it was a good value.

But we don't HAVE to have the genset - it just makes some potential situations a bit more comfortable for us and gives us more options.

My 2 cents.

Tom
Posted by: RayW

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 01:31 AM

The inverter that groo is refering to is used with a 12 volt battery and does not require an engine to be running. The Honda inverter generators need to have the generator running to make the inverter work. The honda EU series of gen sets are very good, quiet, fuel effencient, long life (some of the RV crowd claim 10k hours), and very clean power. The inverter gen sets are also expensive when you compare it to a common generator of the same size.

If you want to know more about the honda inverter sets try here,

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Honda_EU2000_Generators/
Posted by: picard120

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 01:35 AM

Thanks for the tip groo. I will get the inverter too. I hope it isn't too expensive
Posted by: paulr

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 01:42 AM

Honda generators are inverter-design which means they generate DC and convert it to AC with an electronic module built into the generator. That gets better frequency stability and stuff like that. It's also apparently somehow related to the motor being quieter and smaller. But the generators are relatively expensive, like $1000 for a 2kw unit.

More traditional generators make AC directly, and are bigger, noisier, and cheaper than Honda-style generators. You can often buy them used fairly cheaply. Checking local online classifieds I see a 5kw unit for $700, etc.

Most generators have a "surge" capacity that's higher than their steady capacity, that takes care of turn-on transients and the like.

I do like the idea of diesel generators if your house is heated with fuel oil, since you'd normally have a pretty large supply of fuel on hand that you could tap into if needed. Diesel powered cars are attractive for the same reason.

In general, though, I think of "survival" as meaning "staying alive through a dangerous emergency". That could include using a generator to get a furnace going in order to not freeze (I'm just amazed anyone makes furnaces that won't start without electricity). I'd extend it to general emergency preparedness which would include keeping refrigerators powered so food doesn't spoil (even if buying a $1000 generator to protect $50 worth of food is not that financially wise). However, unless someone has special medical needs, I wouldn't consider running all the random electrical stuff in a house (A/C, lights everywhere, home entertainment center and waffle iron) through an outage to have much to do with survival.

So while I've found generators interesting from a tech view, I just haven't felt the need to buy one myself. Some flashlights and spare batteries, warm sleeping bags, etc., should be enough to get through power outages without extreme discomfort. If things get boring without the TV, rediscover reading.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 02:00 AM

I suspect that one of our more survivalist-oriented members may supply the link I am missing after installing a new computer this last weekend. [MS transfer agents - not]

It has to do with using ordinary Briggs & Stratton motors with ordinary GM alternators and an invertors to product prodigeous amounts of electricity. Am I alone in this?
Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 02:16 AM

I freely admit my generator was bought mostly for comfort. But, dang... Florida is freakin' hot in August. And humid. I bought the generator and the window AC unit the same afternoon. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Posted by: AyersTG

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 03:41 AM

I don't disagree with what you wrote.

AFAIK, only the EU line of Honda generators (3kw max) are DC-invertor type gensets. All the rest (the majority of models) are conventional gensets. I have not used any of the EU line myself, but the specs are impressive. However, they are 120v only, so if you need one to power a 220v well pump, this is not a viable option. The majority of domestic well pumps these days are 220v. Likewise, many A/C units (Groo's post comes to mind!) are 220v.

As for frozen food - well, that depends on the household. We will have more than $1,000 worth of frozen food on hand at various times of the year, and usually no less than $300+ worth of frozen food - plus a few hundred in the refers. The genset paid for itself the first time we used it... I have not used it for environmental purposes (forced air furnaces) so far, as we were able to manage with burning wood, pickling portions of the house, etc. My family can manage a few days of expedient camping at -25F (real) that I know of (and wife and I have camped much colder), but it's not a good idea to let a house & contents freeze up, so it's also peace of mind for that potential use. Despite the mild winters we've had lately, it does get nippy from time to time in Northern Illinois.

But everyone's circumstances are different, eh? I don't recomend rushing out and buying a genset, in any event.

Regards,

Tom
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 04:08 AM

Comfort? Survivability, with few exceptions.

Historically, the Gulf coast, and most of Texas, was not really populated until AC happened.
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 04:11 AM

>> Am I alone in this? <<

Er, um, probably not - but I don't remember them making the invertor connection. I've got a couple of links stashed somewhere - but not here in FireFox. Easy to google it up, I think. Anyway, I thought of making up one with alternator, battery, voltage regulator, etc and then tying in an invertor, but never built one. Subsequently found a site or two about this, but minus the invertor.

There were/are two approaches that I recall: 12vdc (actually more like 15vdc) straight off the alternator and a hack job on the alternator that gave ~110v AC (and certain GM alternators are simpler to do that to). AC frequency is a function of rpm in that conversion, I'm almost certain. Now for a little geeking...

Anyway - and this is off the top of my head (or from a dusty corner of my mind) - there are few or no automotive alternators that are self-exciting. Probably takes at least 5-6 amps 12vdc thru the field coil to start making electricity. A permanent magnet generator (very uncommon now - maybe nonexistent) is self-exciting, and there is such a thing as a self-exciting alternator... this exhausts my top layer brain cells, so someone else can pick that up and expound/correct.

Anyway, simple math tells us a few things. Older alternators typically ranged from 35 - 60 amp. With all the electrical demand increases in most modern vehicles, a 135 amp alternator would not be uncommon. If we assume they put out 15vdc, an alternator churning out 100 amps would be making just 1.5 kw. Run it thru an invertor to bump it up to 120v AC and now we're looking at more like 1kw, more or less, which won't even run a circular saw. Even an aftermarket 200amp alternator is only going to put out around 3kw max, and invertors that size are getting expensive. Having written all this...

I still think it would be worthwhile to put one of these together with salvage parts and a modest sized / priced invertor. That pretty much rules out waveform-sensitive devices, as true sinewave invertors are expensive. And there are lots of surprises out there on that count - I know of at least two brands of chargers for battery op tools like drills and saws that will NOT operate well or at all on anything but true sinewave power; specifically will not operate on "modified sine wave" invertors. YMMV.

Regards,

Tom

Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 04:56 AM

I can see why.

The universe's sense of humor continues to frustrate me. House was unbearably hot. Took a shower. Too cold! Too cold! Get out, hot again. See? It's funny now. Then...not so much.

Posted by: MartinFocazio

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 03:32 PM

yeah, i know it's overkill, but inductive loading tends to be a common "emergency" load - motors and all...

As I said, I have a 3,500 watt Honda EB unit - a Kick-Butt performer that runs a TRUE and CONSTANT 3,500 watts and handles surge loads well.

Amazingly, our firehouse does NOT have a backup generator, and during the September 2004 floods, we lost power for three days - and my little Honda powered two commercial refrigerators, two dozen radio chargers and some lighting. Even with 2 running at once, it worked just fine.

You can get a 7,000 watt genny for under $2,000 today - and that's for a really tough one. You can get a cheapie for about $1,000 and still get 7KW, although it's not as "Clean" as the Honda gen sets. I have pretty darn stable frequency and voltage from mine - +/- 3% or less, even as loads come online.
Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 03:48 PM

I'd rather have yours. Mine's way too big... physically big. The thing's a boat anchor. Difficult for me to move by myself.

Posted by: Ron

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 06:45 PM

There were people in Florida before AC. They just did not move there for pleasure.

Trivia for the day: The origional name of Orange County Florida was Mosquito county.





Posted by: frenchy

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 07:54 PM

IIRC, mosquito is Minnesota's state bird ..... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(at least, that's what was printed on T-shirts for sale ....)
Posted by: Hghvlocity

Re: How does one choose power generator - 08/30/05 08:29 PM

I've seen it several places, but I had this one saved in my favorites...someday I will attempt the build.

Homemade Generator
Posted by: Raspy

Re: How does one choose power generator - 09/03/05 07:14 AM

The Homestead Generator
Rich “Raspy” Shawver

From time to time the questions come up about the selection of a homestead generator. Should it be gasoline, diesel or what about a multi-fueled option? How much capacity do I need? What Bells and whistles should be added? What about the noise?

Power generators are designed to produce 60 cycle AC. To accomplish this they normally run at 3600 RPM, 1800 RPM or 900 RPM. Obviously the slower the system operates the less stress it is subjected to. Therefore the longer it will be expected to last.

For the prime mover of the system comes in 2 flavors. The standard gasoline and the diesel engines. Multi-fuel systems are modifications of either of these 2 basic engines. Both work on similar principals. Fuel is sprayed into a cylinder with air. The fuel air mixture is then compressed. This mixture is the ignited to produce the power. The difference comes in how ignition is accomplished. The gas engine uses an electrically fired spark plug. The diesel engine, while initially uses a glow plug to get things started, relies upon compression to fire.

In this respect the gasoline engine has the advantage. Aside from running on gasoline they can be modified to run on LP, Propane and Natural Gas commercial fuels. They can also function on homemade fuels of Alcohol, Wood Gas and Methane. The problem with multi-fuel operations is that to operate of different fuels requires major changes for each fuel. To make the engine operate on several fuels in consecutive operations requires compromises. These compromises make the engine less efficient regardless of the fuel used. Additionally the modification piles extra complexity onto the system.

The diesel engine runs on commercial diesel. And function on homemade fuels of almost any vegetable oil with little or no modification. Yes, that means if you run out of fuel in a diesel powered vehicle you can walk into a grocery store, buy a couple of gallons of expensive cooking oil, pour it in the tank re-fire and drive away. The major problem with these fuels is they are temperature sensitive. The colder it get the thicker the fuel becomes. Often below freezing it becomes to thick to flow. This requires either a system to keep the fuel warm in cold weather. Or to store the fuel where it is not subjected to lowered temperatures.

One area where the 2 types diverge is in reliability and longevity. The most common gas powered generators are the small [5000 watt range] portable generators. While nicely portable they are only designed for intermittent use. They operate at 3600 RPM too fast, too annoyingly loud and way too short-lived. Even the larger models still tend to be of the higher RPM variety. Most diesel generators are designed to operate at 1800 RPM and a few can be found tat run at 900 RPM. Diesels have better torque [power at slow speed] characteristics at lower RPMs than gas engines. Consider engine life in vehicles. Typically gas engines last an average of about 100,000 miles. Sure there are those that last to over 200,000 but have needed major overhauls to reach that. Conversely diesels need little more than minor maintenance at 100,000 and usually last much, much longer. Ask any long haul trucker how many 100,000’s trucks average. Diesels not having the need of an ignition [sparking system] have fewer parts to go wrong.

First conclusion is that diesel driven generators are a more viable option for a long term homestead power system.

Sizing the system

To do this you really need to determine 3 separate figures.
1) Minimum needs
2) Average needs
3) Peak or Maximum needs.

Adding up the power requirements of the equipment in each category does this. Generators are rated in watts or rather 1000 of watts or Kilowatts. To find these values you need to read the appliance’s nameplate. Some list the amount in watts, which makes it easy. Others list the amount in Amps. To convert Amps to watts you multiply amps times the voltage to get watts. Most common electrical equipment runs on 120 volts although some use 240 volts. Example: 5 amps at 120 volts equal 600 watts.

Minimum need items are things like refrigeration, heating or cooling, ventilation and communications. This amount can be reduced from the combined amount by running this equipment sequentially. Average is self-explanatory. Peak is the largest single load or combination of loads that can be expected to be run at any one time. Although you might want to add a fudge factor to be safe. It is better to have a little extra than not enough.

For efficient operation a generator should be loaded between 70 to 90 percent. Less the system is not as stable or being used effectively. The upper 10 % are to allow for the surge when a load is started. Also generators last longer and run better if used for a period of time rather than in a series of short runs. The most wear and tear is during the start up.

The generator is selected to meet the desired usage. Usually minimum for emergency conditions or the average requirements of the homestead. This can sometimes be accomplished better by having 2 generators. Either one to meet minimum to average usage needs or combined to full fill any greater demands for longer-term use. Additionally each can be used as a backup to the other during maintenance or repair. Also as a source of spare parts if both are the same.

What bells and whistles are available?

Auto-start. This automatically starts the generator upon a power failure.

Transfer switch. This is a switch that shifts from commercial power lines to the generator and back. This is a safety feature to keep the generator from feeding the commercial grid. This feedback could cause an injury or worse to linemen repairing the cause of the initial failure. These come in manual or automatic. The automatic type switch the power after the generator comes up to speed.

Remote start. This is a nice feature for periodic running and testing or in place of an auto-start or in the case auto-start fails. It saves a trip to where the generator is located.

Remote monitoring stations. Several stations can be set up for convenience of knowing the status of the generator. These gauges would entail information such as if it were running, speed, various critical temperatures, oil pressure and even fuel tank level. These stations can even be fitted with alarms if parameters get out of operational ranges.

Paralleling meter. When more than one generator is used at the same time to supply the same distribution system this is mandatory equipment. In AC electricity the voltage rises to a peak positive voltage and dips to an equal negative voltage in a series of smooth curves. [Alternating current] When hooking 2 or more generators together the switch has to be closed as close to possible when these rising and fallings match. The purposes of the meter is to measure the difference between the 2 machines it shows when they are in sync and when the switch can be closed safely.

Battery bank. To greatly improve the systems efficiency a battery bank is a welcome addition. When the generator is running at lower than capacity it can be used to charge the bank. Which in turn can supply power when the generator is not on line. It can also store energy from alternate sources such as wind, water or solar systems. The battery can also have remote monitoring and controls incorporated with the generator stations. Depending on how it is wired the bank can operate at almost any desired DC voltage. The output of the battery bank can be dealt in 3 different ways.

The first method is straight DC. This requires a separate DC wiring system. A DC system works especially well for lighting. Many DC appliances can be acquired at recreational vehicle centers. Here is an interesting product. It is a variable output LED lighting Module.
http://www.techass.com/el/versalux/ulm/ulm.php?techass=3fe0092186fa2f45faefa96b753e0bbe

The second method is to use one large or a combination of several smaller inverters. Inverters are electronic modules that convert DC into AC.

The final option is the ultimate inverter. This is a motor generator setup. A DC motor drives a small AC generator. The advantage these have over the electronic inverters is longevity. These will last an extremely long time because of their simplicity. One interesting feature of this kind of set up is that it can operate in both directions. If the control circuits are adjusted the AC generator will act as a motor and a DC motor act as a DC generator. This can then be used to charge the batteries from the main generators.

Noise abatement and a few other issues.

If you run a generator in the basement or an attached garage it would not be long until it would drive you crazy. Not to say announcing its presents to the world for miles around. What is required is a separate power house. This structure does not have to be close to a dwelling but it need not be far away either. The trick is to insulate it to contain the noise. The easiest way to this is to think of a root cellar like structure with a well-insulated door. Being situated below ground it uses the earth as a sonic as well as a temperature insulator. Since this also moderates temperature fuels such as diesel are not as effected if stored there. Also the negative effect of cold on the batteries will be minimized. If heating is required it will be minimal in nature.

Final Recommendations. The best engine I would suggest is a diesel. From what I previously stated you might think I would say 2 generators. Actually I would want 3. 2 mid sized units to supply the main power. Each capable of supplying the average power needs. Each as a backup for the other or combined to meet higher levels of need. The third would be a small portable gas generator. This is to take a power source to remote locations. A battery bank to increase efficiency. A separate DC grid and a motor generator setup to supply AC from the battery and to charge the battery.

Posted by: groo

Re: How does one choose power generator - 09/03/05 06:23 PM

That's awesome.

Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: How does one choose power generator - 09/05/05 01:52 PM

I think Consumer Reports magazine did a review of various portable generators a while ago. Info should be available at your local ibrary. tro
Posted by: CJK

Re: How does one choose power generator - 09/05/05 09:01 PM

For some pretty good information about choosing a generator take a look at www.nooutage.com It has numerous area that can help you. My wife and I have recently been looking at buying one and have done some research on it. If you 'search' the net, you'd find even more. One thing I will caution about....make sure you take into account the SURGE Wattage needed to start things like central AC/ Well pump etc.