another question about survival weapons

I know there are many opinions about what is the best " survival weapon ". My choice is my 357 revolver . I have been thinking about getting a Marlin 357 lever action rifle . If anyone has one I'd like to know how they like it and what kind of range does it have.

Not that I'm an expert or anything but I'm leaning toward the .22. Light, small, ammo is light and small. Whatever survival situation I'm in I'm going to avoid a gun fight with someone else so people stopping power is last on the priority list, I'm going to play chicken and hide. .22 I would feel more confortable firing in the air (sure it will still travel a long way) as a signal to search and rescue, or kill small game to survive on without blowing them to bits.

Yah, I think it depends on what you are trying to survive! :-)

For example:

1) charging bear
2) roaming mobs
3) individual criminal
4) starvation

I think I'd pick something different for each case.

-john

I chose the 357 mag revolver because I think it's a good all around caliber . The 357 is a proven man stopper and would take a whitetail if I could get close enough for a good shot. I could shoot 38 special ammo for small game. I agree that having a different firearm for each situation would be preferable but in my case I would prefer to travel light and avoid a fight. Besides , I can't afford a lot of different guns and it's not my top priority. I feel that a weapon is a tool of last resort in most survival situations.

It would be very versitile; there is nothing wrong with your reasoning. Worked very well in the American West.

357/38 is about middle-ground when you toss in ammo weight and bulk vs small-to-medium game ability and would be just fine. If you want to go up considerably in game animal size, a combo in 44 magnum would do that (most 44 special factory loads are real mild, but there are some nice choices - I've actually taken a liking to the CCI Blazer stuff for some purposes).

For an extreme upgrade of the combo revolver-rifle combo idea there's the 454 / 45 Colt combo - or just 45 Colt if you reload. Or the 460 or 500 Smith (someone is bound to build a lever gun in those calibers sooner or latter)

At the other end of the power spectrum there is H&R 32 mag and 22 lr. (And the 30 Carbine, FWIW)

I suppose one could make an effective arguement for a 41 Magnum as an "optimum" combo caliber. If you like single action revolvers there are a couple of traditional choices as well (44-40, 38-40, and maybe 32-20) but upper end performance with those is pretty much a reloading propostion these days.

Anyway, not a bad idea.

Tom

You bring up a good point Tom, but if you look at ammo availability, nothing (eccept .22) is going to beat .357/.38. That's the reason I'm looking at .357s, even though, if I had my first choice, I,d always have a .45, .270, and 12 guage close at hand. Don't forget, everybody's talking about .38s for small game... they DO make shot shells for .38/.357(and yes, Tom, I know you're already well aware of that).

Just my 2 cents.

Troy

Troy,

I agree. Bad wording on my part - I agree with him on the 357 / 38. selection. If I was objective (I'm not), that's what I should toss in the truck bed tool box. Point is, it would get the job done quite nicely. And if a convertible SA like a Ruger Blackhawk is in the mix, toss in 9mm on the revolver side for scrounged ammo.

Tom

Well... A .357 carbine, maybe backed up with a good wheelgun in the same, can handle any of those. Although, you mainly want to use your feet and your head with the angry mob- run and hide!

So long as you pick your loads, it can handle anything up to whitetail (and those to, depending on where you are and how good of a shot you are). It would far from my first choice for bear or boar, but if one was charging, I wouldn't consider it too light. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd rather take a light pump action, but the there have been very few of them. The Tiberwolf supposedly was kinda spotty in quality and is long gone, and the new guy from Taurus I haven't handled yet.

For range... 100m, against large varmint, 50m for medium game (small deer, etc) due to accuracy, 25m with a heavy nonexpanding slow .38 for smaller stuff. I'd rather have some lighter, round noses at low velocity, but most people don'r roll thier own.

Things to go with- sling, fiber-optic sight inserts if you can find them. If you put glass on it, I'd go nothing higher than 4x, and use a see-through base.

I wouldn't mind the old M1 carbine in this role, it is comperable in power to the .357. There is just a lack of ammo variety, and it has a bad rep becuase for some reason people compaire it to the .30-06. It is like compairing an moped to a Harley.

Pardon my ignorance here, but I need to ask.
I was lucky enough over the years to pick up 2 of the M1 carbines that are IMHO, in excellent shape. However, I am paranoid as all heck to even mention them to people, as I was under the impression that they have been banned in one way or another.

So, could someone clear this up for me, are they just banned from being imported to the US, or is ownership out and out banned as well?

"A kind word and a gun will get you a lot further than a kind word alone." - Al Capone

You may need to check your state laws.

To my knowledge, the M1 carbine was never banned in the US and was perfectly legal even while the Brady Bill was in effect, unless post-ban magazines of greater than 10 rounds were involved.

Naturally, new M1 carbines (I think Auto Ordnance still makes a model) didn't have bayonet lugs and such and came with only 10-round or lesser mags. But I don't believe federal law ever banned the M1 carbine.

California law, however, may be a whole different ball of wax.

Personally I agree with Clint Smith... Handguns are for getting to your rifle. I love my SIG220 in .45ACP, extremely reliable, accurate and fits my hand like a glove. I have never had a failure, even in a dirty, wet, or semi-frozen weapon. I carry it everywhere with me (I legally can). It has been there when I needed it and has saved my life. However, given a choice in a fight it will stay securely in my holster because I will be using a long gun. Either my AR-15 or my Remington 870 is in my vehicle just about 24/7 if I'm not home. Both are good weapons and both have their positive and negative attributes.

The AR-15 is light, deadly accurate, easy to carry and reasonably reliable. However, 5.56x45mm is a not my favorite round, however good ammunition goes a ways on improving this weapons reputation (personally Blackhills 68g Heavy Match is my favorite) and the AR requires more care and attention than any other weapon I’d choose to carry. A .22LR kit adds some flexibility to this weapon.

While the 870 is heavy and cumbersome to carry, it is extraordinarily reliable and flexible. Although it is typically loaded with 1oz slugs, 6 00 Buck shells are carried on the receiver and 6 4Buck shells are carried on the stock (along with 2 flares). When I have this in my vehicle I also carry my shotgun bag with has a 50 round pouch each of 00 Buck and 4 Buck, 20 rounds of 1oz Slug, 100 rounds of #7.5 Shot as well as cleaning kit, spare light bulb, batteries, etc. All in all, this would be my choice for most scenarios I can imagine that do not require me to stray too far from my home or vehicle and am not in an environment where the necessity to make a shot beyond 100yd is likely.

I do not like pistol caliber carbines; they seem like a half measure. You can only squeeze so much performance out of a pistol cartridge, and I’d rather carry my AR-15 than one of these. Even the M1 Carbine, although a very good weapon, lacks the performance I’d like out of a long gun. I am also not a fan of wheel guns either, they are reliable accurate… But so is my SIG, which is higher capacity and less bulky (than a comparable caliber revolver)

Either way, my SIG is always there. .45acp is a capable round (especially in 185gr +P+) that can get most close in jobs done efficiently. But, every time I put it on I hope and pray that it will not be needed…

handyman,

Hi!

I also like the .357 Mag. The caliber is sufficiently versatile to handle small and medium sized game, as well as defense. It is my choice in a revolver for a survival gun. Adding a carbine in the same caliber increases its capability and simplifies your logistics. I like the Marlin revolver caliber carbines. I would look for the standard model, the 1894C Carbine, rather than the cowboy model. I believe the latter may not be drilled and tapped for a side-mounted aperture sight like those made by Lyman. Also it is worthwhile to get a new or fairly new production gun. The crux is to make sure you are getting the newer Ballard rifling rather than Marlin's traditional Microgroove (R) rifling. The former has a few deep rifling grooves and the latter many shallow grooves. Ballard rifling is preferable for shooting unjacketed bullets. The Microgroove (R) rifling might require considerably more work to find accurate loads with cast or swaged bullets.

Tom is right on as to the issue of weight. If you are backpacking, the weight of the ammo becomes a significant factor in choosing your caliber. In preparing for a backpacking hunt a few years ago, I weighed my ammo. I primarily needed a flat shooting high powered rifle, but a revolver could add a lot to a trip. Choice of handgun caliber was not critical. I got the following weights for boxes of standard factory ammo:

Revolver (50 rds.): .22 LR--5 oz. (36 gr. bullet)
.32 H & R Mag.--18 oz. (95)
.357 Mag--30 oz. (158)
.44 Mag--59 oz. (240)

Rifle (20 rds.): .30-06--19 oz. (150)

Shotgun (25 rds.) 12 ga.--45 oz. (1.25 oz)
20 ga.--35 oz. (1.0 oz.)


I needed more oomph than a .22. The .32 would have been fine, but I failed to develop any shot loads, and no such factory ammo exists (or even .32 caliber plastic capsules for the shot loads). The .357 worked well.

Alternatives for long guns in survival situations can easily vary depending on circumstances (like whatever it is we are trying to survive) so as to include such divers choices as the following: .30-06 bolt action scoped rifle; semi-automatic defensive rifle; 12 ga. pump; Savage model 24 combination gun in .22LR over 20 ga. Mag. These choices are only as to different conditions I can readily envision applying to my family. YMMV.

Good luck,

John

Skater,

They are not banned. Returning them from the many foreign militaries to the USA was difficult until President Reagan's administration. The gun itself was not prohibited or required to be registered by either the 1994 Crime Bill or the PRK's (California's) recent laws. That assumes they are in their original condition. Changes or modifications of the gun from its original form could cause the California legal restrictions apply. Magazines holding over 10 rds were severely regulated by both groups of laws. The Federal law expired in 9/05. Sadly, the PRK's restrictions continue to trammel its residents. However, any such high capacity magazines you owned before the effective date of the applicable law are legal for you (but you alone) to use. I am not aware of any restrictions on your personal use of such magazines. You cannot in any way transfer (or lend) such magazines to others.

Enjoy,

Legal Disclaimer: Obviously this post is not meant to provide legal advice, legal representation or relationship, and none exists or is provided. I am not admitted to practice law in any state other than California and am neither doing nor intending to do so. I limit my practice to civil law, and do not practice criminal law. Anyone wanting legal advice or representation should seek his own lawyer admitted to practice law in the prospective client's jurisdiction.

John

Check your local laws on this one. M1 Carbines are illegal in Chicago but not in most of Illinois. No rhyme or reason.

Thank you all for the feedback. I never realized the complexity of the issue.
Time to renew my NRA membership.

Romania,

Greetings fellow Arizonian. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was in the US Army for 7 years. I too am less than impressed with the 5.56. Have you looked into the Remington 6.8 SPC? If ammo ever becomes available I will get a semi-auto in this caliber. Are you buying your Blackhills 68g Heavy Match locally?

Never tell someone their gun sucks! It's like telling them their wife is ugly! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, yes... but if I read the thread correctly, I think you see three of us telling you that your choice of a 357 carbine / pistol combo is very good and no one telling you it's a stupid idea (because it is not). It's an intrisically accurate pistol caliber with a good balance of recoil and ability, even if I choose to not use it myself. (I REALLY should have a couple in the safe... hmmm...)

The 357 carbines I have fired were Marlins and Winchesters. I liked the Marlins better, but either should be robust enough to count on. They are pleasant to shoot (heck, they're fun!). Many folks feel that the Win M92 is the best of breed, and Legacy imports the Rossi M92 Pumas in MANY variations. The Rossi M92 might want a little tweaking, depending on who you talk to, but it's DiY stuff, not gunsmithing.

Marlin has a short version and Winchester has a nice trapper version

Probably more 357 revolvers available than any other caliber, so pick what suits you. I like speed loaders for DA revolver, but they are bulky for packing - one or two is enough. Never used speed strips, so my only comments on them are that they are obviously more space-efficient but not as quick as a speed loader.

Nothing wrong with a nice SA, either.

Tom

I used to have a Trapper in 30/30. I loved that gun. Not sure why I sold it. I miss it. Great gun. Amazingly accurate for the cal and bbl length and a pleasure to carry around.

If I remember correctly, I have a PUMA .357 lever action tucked away. It is a short barrel version that I think they call a Trapper. Typical looking "saddle gun" that was decent on accuracy, easy to carry and clean.
Would not work well as a club.

Actually, I think it is safer to tell a guy his wife is ugly. :P

Actually I have been looking at the 6.8mm SPC but haven't invested any money into that cartridge yet. I haven't been able to find Blackhills in the valley yet, but Wilson Combat sells it online and I found a small shop in prescott that sells it also (can't tell ya name or address through, it's been awhile).

Kalifornia is always a different ball of wax.

I would think that so long as it has factory, non-A1 furniture (the folding stock paratrooper model), most places might class it as an antique. At the very least, it is no more menacing than a Mini-14.

I've been kicking around getting a Mark X Mini-Mauser action and building a 6.5 Grendal on the action with the 7.62 x 39 bolt. A little Grendal bolt action rifle would be nifty for a really long walk. I'd stoke it up with something it likes in the 125gr Nosler partition to 129gr Hornady Interlock range and be ready for careful and deliberate harvesting of about anything. The COAL for the magazine on this is 0.005" short of the max COAL for the Grendal; I can live with that, since I would only handload for it anyway.

The 6.8 Rem would be OK, too but the reasonable bullet weights in that caliber are too light for my taste - if it would handle a 130gr well, that would be another story. I realize that there are some specialty bullets starting to appear for it, but sectional density cannot be magicked with conventional lead core bullets; it takes weight (mass) to get a higher SD. (Maybe with carbide or DU cores, but...) Anyway, building a 6.8 Rem on a Mini Mark X would take machining to open up the bolt face of the 223 bolt and extractor and I'm not keen to mess with that until someone else does it first - several times.

These are both really aimed at M16 magazine parameters, so a spare upper reciever in either caliber for someone who already has an AR15 would be well worth the investment, IMHO. The pundits pontificate that the 6.8 is a tick better in QCB (slightly better frontal area and slightly less recoil) and that the Grendal is superior at long range. No personal data, but I know what a 6.5 at those modest velocities does - kills things dead with no fuss; penetration is almost always thru and thru. I would be much more confident of taking a Wapiti with the Grendal than with the 6.8. Both should do fine on deer and smaller critters.

But I can't really think of a good excuse to do this... neither caliber will do anything that something else I already have won't do better. Be nice if my wife gets one built for me - she does things like that from time to time <grin>.

Tom

(forgive my spelling - it's extra-awful tonight and I'm too lazy to go fix it)

One of the reasons I haven't invested in the 6.8mm SPC yet is that I don't think the improvements over 5.56 are enough to justify the investment. I would rather save the money and invest in a scout rifle in something .30cal range. I'd probably go .308 win or .300wsm. I would love a Styer scout, but will probably build up a Remington model 700 modified by Robar for M14 magazines, 16" barrel, etc. I was looking at springfields new M1a scout but I don't like the reciever (they look kinda cheap) and they are expensive.

Skater,

Oops... I totally forgot about the folding stock variation of the M1 Carbine. AFAIK it would fall within the definition of an assault rifle per the criteria of (SB 23) California Penal Code section 12276.1 (a) (1). Such guns were required to be registered with the State of CA by December 31, 2000. Ownership or possession thereafter of such guns without registrations is a felony under CA law. If you happen to have such a gun, see a criminal lawyer skilled in gun cases. An interesting question would be why you couldn't just remove the offending (and probably valuable) stock, divest yourself of both ownership and possession, and replace it with a conventional stock. I don't know the answer. If the gun/folding stock were in storage out of the state of CA, that might also be legal. In any case a gun case savvy criminal lawyer could advise you.

You might find it informative to check the CA Attorney General's website at http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/genchar2.htm

Another informative website is http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/

Good luck,

Legal Disclaimer: Obviously this post is not meant to provide legal advice, legal representation or relationship, and none exists or is provided. I am not admitted to practice law in any state other than California and am neither doing nor intending to do so. I limit my practice to civil law, and do not practice criminal law. Anyone wanting legal advice or representation should seek his own lawyer admitted to practice law in the prospective client's jurisdiction.

John

Rifles and handguns sharing common ammunition is of course a old and valid combination. There have been many articles written over the years on the subject. You must understand that Marlin uses microgroove rifling on many pieces and the differing system, twist rate and numerous nearly intangible variances will make a load performing well in both pieces nearly impossible. That was the conclusion of Ken Woods years ago in a Handloading magazine article. The rifle range is limited by the cartridges ballistics. You can squeeze a little more useable range with a peep sight and the modest velocity increase-but do not expect any Adobe Wells shots. Something later exploration leaders insisted upon was uniformity of both firearms and ammunition. Aside from logistic sense, the ability to rebuild one functioning firearm from two disabled ones in the field was paramount.

I will still stick with my break action 410. For a survival weapon, it packs all the power and versatility you could want in a firearm. It may not be the greatest self defense weapon, but I can say that cutting one of these rounds loose in a dark room will definitely have the desired effect on anyone unwelcome.

Anyone who plays video games knows that the pistol is only for getting your hands on something bigger.

Thanks, John. I am not fortunate (or unfortunte) enough to have a folding stock M1. I think an original folding stock alone would be worth more than one would have to pay for the full-stock rifles now; shades of Errol Flynn in Back to Bataan.
Mine are the full stock versions.
Thanks very much for your follow up message.
And I agree with your disclaimer, no matter what advice you have offered, any action I take or don't take is purely in my hands.

Thank you again.