Shotguns

How do Mosberg 12 gauge pump shotguns compare with others such as the Remington 870? Thanks. GeorgeM

That is the Ford-Chevy debate of the shotgunning world, you realise this. I'm going to assume you are talking pump actions...

The Mossberg is a little less expensive, but the M500 (single action bar) is cheeper than the Remington 870. Both the Moss M500 and M590 (dual bars, 95% of them are in tactical configuration, and they can't use the M500 sporter barrels) use a tang mounted safety. That makes them a little better suited for southpaws. Becuase of how they do thier endcaps, you can't mount a magazine tube extension.

Remington 870 is just as common, but a little more expensive. It has a push button safety forward of the trigger gaurd, which is well suited to right handed use. There is a left handed version available, but it is made in limited numbers, and as a lefty, you can learn to hit it with the supporting hand while doing a press check on the tube and lifter. You can put magazine tube extentions on the 870 easily, some production runs might need the use of a small drill, but nothing that needs a gunsmith.

Let's toss in the Mavrick 88 for grins and giggles. Mavrick is a line owned by Mossberg, and their 88 is basically a Moss M500 wioth a push button safety. It can use a lot, but not all of the same parts as the Mossberg.

Both the Mossberg and the Remington are super, super common. Between the two of them, they probably hold half the market on pump guns. That means that you can get accessories and mods for both pretty much anyplace. Cabela's, Gander Mountain, Sportsman Guide, etc, all have replacement barrels. Everyone who makes tactical gizmos supports both of them. Having shot the Moss 500 and 590, the Mav 88 , and the Rem 870, I'd say they are of equal quality, really. The Mossberk 500 and 950 and the Remington 870 are still serving in active duty in Afganistan and Iraq, despite the adoption of the Benelli M4 and that clumsy little attempt at an underbarrel (don't know it's model number, sorry).

What I would say is, try them in the shop, see what you like best. But get a 3" chamber- you probably won't NEED it, but you will have it if you ever do. I also find that the longer chamers seem to feed a little cleaner with hulls that have been reloaded too many times.

My personal choice is the old Ithica M37. I wouldn't run 3" shells in it, even if the chamber could handle it, in an origonal, but the new production 37, and the 80s era 87 can do it. It is hard to argue with a reciever milled from a single, monolithic block of steel, and possibly the lowest part count of any repeating shotgun. (I'm not sure if the new production 37s use the milled reciever; I know the 87s used an investment cast one.)

Ironsraven has summed it up nicely, though he might have said this is "one" of the Ford-Chevy debates. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Another is: Beretta 686 line of over/unders vs. the Browning Citori line?

But I think I'm straying from the survival/emergency topic, so I won't go there.

Ironsraven, have you had any experience with the Benelli Nova pump guns?

Not yet, but they look spiffy. Nice lines, and Benelli most definantly not Euro-trash.

Oh, and I forgot to mention- there is a Norinco copy of the Ithica M37 out there. I haven't seen one yet, but Norinco's clones are usually pretty decent. Particularly when you consider they don't pay for the rights to bootleg American and European designs, and the entire company is owned stock, dock and sweat-shop by the ChiCom government. Thier Rem 870 clone is decent, as are thier copies of the 1911, M1A and AR15, but they still are using political prisoners as forced factory workers.

Depends on what you're going to be using it for. Mossberg and Remington both make good guns. Some US military use Mossbergs, but that's partly for reliability and partly for price. Remington's smoother, more robust and, yes, more expensive. I debated this for awhile and decided on a Winchester 1300 Defender as the best balance for my needs. My dad has a Mossberg 590 and, though it shoots fine, the Winchester is more accurate and has better fit and finish.

I'm glad this topic came up. I've been thinking about getting a pump gun for defense/emergency use. Have four 0/Us, but three of them are stored with family. Only have an O/U 20 ga. and an airweight .38 S&W Centennial at home these days. I'm feeling a bit lightly armed.

Had forgotten W's Model 1300 .... will get out and look at one, as well as the Mossberg and Remington guns. Have never handled a 1300, but know It's gotten good reviews.

Shot a Winchester Model 42 (the scaled-down Model 12; both of 'em out of production) a couple weekends ago. While I'm not a fan of the .410 in general, that was one sweet-handling little gun.

Have two of the Mossberg 500's as my self-defense/survival guns, one with a pistol grip for short range and one with a folding stock/pistol grip for longer range. Love the mossbergs and have had them since the late 70's. Shot the Remington during Security training, but like the mossbergs better, plus they were less expensive than the Remington's. Can't beat your basic 12 gauge for intimidation factor.

Who, or what is on the business end of your scattergun? I had an old 97 Winchester trenchbroom with bayonet. People saw that thing and had sweaty flashbacks to The WILD BUNCH. I like to think I looked like William Holden, probably more like Warren Oates or Ernie Borgnine. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I finally traded it for a mule with four 10 gauge hooves for ranch security <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. My G/F wanted something simple, and remember even experienced users can short cycle a pump when excited. I had a 16 gauge belgian guild Hammer sidelock with IC bores on 28" tubes! We cut those down and installed a solid english pad. Hammer guns leave no mistake about their status, those hammers laid back like a angry dog's ears. Consider your loads too. OO buck can overpenetrate indoors and I've known of people failing to place any meaningfull hits. Get the smaller , and more numerous buck loadings for less penetration and more pattern placement.

Chris, I figure if I ever find myself reaching for a short-barrel pump gun, I'm in a very bad situation. For sport, I like O/Us or trim English style side-by-sides with 28" tubes.

I'd agree on the shot size ... I've always thought single-0 or No. 1 buck would be a good defense load.

Re inexperience, no doubt. If I do buy a pump gun, I'll get it out to practice with ... hand-thrown clay birds (that little red thrower from MTM is inexpensive and works), hedgeballs, etc. would probably be my practice targets. Would also run some defense loads through it to get used to the feel.

Thanks for the replies. A lot of good and valuable information was provided. GeorgeM

To date, lots of clay and paper, a variety of reactive targets. Watermelon past it's prime + (freezer x 72 hours) + buckshot = fun. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If I'm meat hunting, I'm looking for mammel as a rule- not a big fan of poltery- so I'm using a rifle. I hope I never have to shoot another human. Ignoring the psychological issues, I hate dealing with lawyers.

Actually, for home defense, I don't like shotguns. A high speed, light weight bullet in .223 actually pentrates less building material than buckshot (someone in Nevada did a study in the early 90s, and the results have been confirmed by a few other groups), and since I'm pretty rural, I want something that can go past 50 meters. I have a Mni-14 for that, with a 20 round magazine with 10 45gr softpoints on the top, then 6 22109s. By that point, I figure I'm going to be out of the house and shooting at a car, or someone behind a tree. Last two rounds are tracer, telling me to get my butt back to the house and the mag pouch in the front closet.

To me, the advantage of a shotgun is that it can do things nothing else can. If I was to become more urban, I'd switch to a pump 12ga with rubber shot in the tube, #4 buck on a side saddle, and slugs on a buttcuff. But where I am, that can stay in the locker.

I was waiting for that. Someone always likes the Winchester- it's the Toyota in the Ford/Chevy debate of Remington/Mossberg. :P

That being said, my last car was a chevy, I drive a ford, and my next car will probably be a toyota. :P Never owned a 1300, but shot a couple of them. Good stuff, just not as common and no where near as many gizmos out there for it.

Post deleted by Chris Kavanaugh

A nice thing about the Mossbergs is the placement of the safety, easy to work with your fireing thumb. Buckshot spreads out about an inch for every yard of travel, so inside the house you are still looking at a fairly tight pattern. Mossbergs are also available all over and at a good price. You need to see how your shotgun patterns at 1, 3,5,7, 10 and 15 yards with your chosen defensive ammo. I've seen a stock Mossberg with PMC 00 buck shoot almost
as well as the very expensive custom gun and high priced ammo (belonged to the instructor). You may find that your gun "likes" one type of ammo, so try a few brands.
A high visability follower with a "bump" you can feel in the dark is a good idea as well a some method to have ammo on the gun. 2 important Shotgun Rules, work the slide after each shot and shoot 1, load 1.

Dave

It is a bit different around here, Boone. The weapon I'm most likely to take fire from is a deer rifle in the hands of someone who has a clue of how to use it. Maximum effective range in the hands of a good shot, 800m. Maximum put thier head down range, over a mile. Maximum effective range from your average redneck, 400m, and I have approaches longer than that to the house. I have stone walls in my yard, and a number of trees, all of which make really nifty cover. The SS109s will penetrate the trunk of a birch or pine tree. Out the door might the lay in some places, but not in Vermont. If you are being shot at, you are more than welcome to shoot back.

I like to be ready for most situations. I figure that if it is ever needed, I'm not going to fire more than three or four rounds. But if I have to get down to the ball ammo, I'm going to need it.

If they are running, I'm going to let them run, but if they are running and shooting, I'm not going to sit there and take it. If they surrender, they are going to have my knee in thier back until the cops show up. Oh, and we know from experince that it takes 30 minutes to get a cop to my place with lights and sirens at 3 in the morning. I plan to be able to hold the fort for an hour as a result, against anything short of professional military personnel.

And I am fully aware of what is required for a legal shoot. I was planning on becoming a cop through academics, and still have most of a criminal justice degree, before I became totally disgusted with the state of the system. (With the points from my engineering degree, I am 6 credit hours shy.) But I'm glad you put that up for everyone else. And keep in mind, the rules of engagement allowed to me in Vermont are radically different than they are in Massachusets, and both are different from New York, eitber of which are an afternoon drive for me.

I'm also going to point out that if you ever do shoot someone, a couple of things are going to happen:
-You are going to jail until you can talk to the judge.
-Your firearm will be seized until the judge decides you can have it back. If ever.
-If you get a liberal judge and/or a DA/SP with a mad on and political dreams, you will be charged with attempted manslaughter, at a minimum.
-You will be sued if the perp lives, and by his next of kin if he doesn't.
-You have even odds of being sued for reckless endangerment and mental anguish by a hoplophobe neighbor.
-The lawsuits will damn expensive, and if you don't win them totally and completely, you can kiss your credit and savings good bye.
-You could well loose your job. If you lease, unless you have a very cool landlord, you won't live there for long. Oh, guess who just became a flight risk if they are out on bail?
-And if the perp has any buddies, watch your back. They will want to get some payback.