Titanium

I recently acquired a titanium zippo lighter and being a hard core zippo user for quite a while I did feel the difference in weight. I also have titanium spork but with that I really couldn’t tell the difference because I've been using plastic spoons so much. I would like to invest into some titanium cookware and cups even if they are really expensive due to weight and “legendary” durability abilities.

So here's what I was thinking. I know that titanium is hard and light but my spork and lighter after just carrying them as regular items look like they went thru WW3. I mean they are all scratched up. I know it's all surface stuff but any type of abrasion produces powder shavings. Is there any health risk associated with that? I mean it never happened on stainless steel items and spork really has a small surface area but a cooking pan is pretty big.

And second thing. Most of new flashlights are pretty expensive but still heavy. Why nobody utilizes titanium in that industry? Does it has to do with price of the metal, difficulty in molding or heat conductivity is too big to use it in high powered lights?

I've never heard of any titanium toxicity. Even concerns over aluminum have been largely dismissed. It's ironic, we have continuing toxicity from asbestos, older buildings with lead paint, shooting ranges and even a recent run of low cost eating utensils, toys and costume jewelry were made with low grade radioactive waste. Flashlight's main weight handicap are batteries. I imagine a titanium unit would be a reverse situation of "penny wise and pound foolish."

all my cookware is titanium as well as my watch. it is a Hypo-allergenic metal so people with metal allergies and what not have no problems, unlike nickel.

Titanium is currently more expensive than aluminum, due mostly to the refining process. (USGS Metal prices shows Aluminum at a little over $0.60 a pound vs. Titanium at around $4 a pound.)

Titanium is more difficult to machine than Aluminum.

Obviously, flashlights and other items could be made from titanium, but the added cost wouldn't be worth it in most cases. I'd love to have a Ti HDS EDC, but it'd cost $$$ for something that would only be a little lighter.

Now, the titanium scales on my Sebenza are worth it, since they're large hunks of metal that'd make the knife much heavier in anything else.

The only real risk I can think of is that Ti is an -um metal. Aluminimum, magnisium, titanium, plutonium, they all burn when flaked/ribboned and provided with enough energy. So sayth my old college chem professor.

I can say I have lit magnesium and aluminum, but I doubt you will ever get that much off your spork and lighter without destroying a grinder in the process.

And I'm not going to speculate on Pu, other than to say you can't get me close enough to it find out.

Ti is more difficult to machine than Aluminum. That is true and is much more expensive. Also, if you have to weld Ti, you have to do so in a completely inert enviornment. No so with Aluminum or Steel. Many people don't see the advantage of Ti, and honestly (even though I have a huge Ti fetish), it is hard to justify the cost difference. Espcially when Aluminum performs so well for lights.

No, I don't think titanium is a good idea for flashlights.

Yes, titanium has a relatively low density; that is, compared to the iron or steel that would be used as structural metal instead.

But most metal flashlights are constructed of aluminum, which is actually less dense than titanium. It's also a better electrical conductor (used for the current's return path). Aluminum is also much easier to machine and to work with in general, and an order of magnitude cheaper. Both resist corrosion quite well, but especially aluminum, which forms a thin but nearly impervious layer of Al2O3 on its surface.

So unless you spcifically need the added strength that Ti provides above Al (and these uses would likely already be using steel), using Ti is counterproductive.

I'd never buy a titanium flashflight. Its aluminum cousin would be just as capable, effective and durable, and probably weigh less to boot. And it would sure cost a hell of a lot less.

Still, it might be a nice marketing gimmick for someone trying to sell crappy flashlights at high prices. Nobody knows a damn thing about titanium, but as soon as you mention titanium, people buy the things up like it has some kind of magical power.

Titanium, like iron, various carbon steels and stainless steels, aluminum, copper, brass, bronze, silver, gold, lead, tin and so on, has a list of unique properties that suit it to certain applications.

Aluminum gets a bad rap, but it's pretty damn good for a huge number of things - it resists corrosion exceptionally well, can be easily machined, is quite light and offers a great deal of strength per pound. And pound per pound, aluminum is a better electrical conductor than copper, silver or gold (you just need larger diameter wires, but they still weigh less than narrower copper, silver or gold wires of the same resistance.) In fact the primary drawbacks of Al for electrical purposes is that it's harder to solder than the "noble" metals, and that it is less ductile than the same.

Well, no offense but I wont be trading in the Titanium slabs on my Sebenza for Aluminum any time soon. Oh did I say "soon"... I meant "ever". <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Wouldn't want steel either. Too much weight. I think when you want more strength than aluminum provides and you are counting weight to the ounce, or even the gram then titanium is the best thing available at this point in time. I'd buy a titanium flashlight (provided that it conducts electricity well enough) since it would stronger than aluminum and weigh less than steel.

But is strength really a limitation when it comes to an aluminum-barreled flashlight?

How many aluminum flashlight barrels have you bent or broken in the normal course of use? (If you used your 6D Mag to thwart a burglar, I'd say it can be honorably retired.)

When was the last time you had to re-sharpen your aluminum flashlight barrel because it got dull?

There *are* many uses for titanium. Flashlight barrels aren't one of them. I can't think of a single reason why I'd prefer titanium over aluminum for a flashlight, even all else being equal (and all else is not equal, most notably price). But they'd still sell like hotcakes for the reason I gave, so if there's some enterpreneur out there, I can tell you there's a dormant but lucrative market for titanium barreled flashlights.

Aluminum is not a better electrical conductor than copper, silver, or gold. It is not as strong as any of the three in the same diameter. It is just cheaper. It also corrodes faster and in more environments then copper, silver, or gold!

Electrical engineer in communications for thirty years and in charge of maintenance engineering for 15 years for the Bell System.

Matt,

I wouldn't worry about the health risks of titanium utensils. It is very non-reactive. This is why it is popular for use in salt water. It is also commonly used in human implants. The scratches are more cosmetic than anything.

Check out this titanium "real" flatware. If you check the weights compared to your spork, I think you'll find you can have "real" flatware for similar weight to the spork.. And I bet a lot less people have titanium flatware vs titanium sporks....

http://www.titaniumart.com/hc-flatware-tc07.html

-john

You're an EMT, right? You sometimes eat firehouse food, right? Don't worry about the Titanium.. worry about the chili!

Seriously though, Matt:
I talked with a biomedical engineer who designs Titanium implants. He says you probably are at greater risk from whatever you eat WITH your Spork than from the Titanium itself.

I understand your point about the resistivity of aluminum - the point I was making is if you compare two wires, one aluminum, one copper, of equal weight, the aluminum wire has a smaller resistance. Of course, the aluminum wire has about a 70% greater diameter. And despite the greater diameter it's usually cheaper too

Part of the problem with aluminum wiring is not just that it corrodes, it is the way it corrodes. It is not for nothing that virtually all jurisdictions have banned its use for electical structure wiring. I have handled a number of aluminum wiring fires. I have seen aluminum wiring side by side with copper in the same installation. The aluminum was unsafe; the copper was still safe.

That is because aluminum flakes as it degrades. And aluminum flake burns, just like magnesium flake. Why do you think it is one of the components of thermite, or at least the home made version.

I asked around, and while I don't have the engineering experince that some here do, some of my coworkers do. They all said flat out that the reason why people pushed aluminum wiring was because it was lighter and cheaper. They looked at my like I was nuts when I asked if it had a lower resistance.

That's what I mean about the 'way' it corrodes. And yes, it was much cheaper. There are entire neighborhoods here that are not worth tearing down because they were such crap to begin with and are ot worth the price of re-wiring with copper. Unfortunately, a lot of those houses were sold to returning vietnam vets in neighborhoods surrounding the military bases. We have 7 in/around San Antonio.

Saw this, remembered your post...

Titanium Flashlights

Is titanium more resistant to the chemicals released by batteries when they leak?
I know when every my Al flashlights get a battery leak, they are most often trashed... As in: The insides are so corroded that you cannot even unscrew the end, because the threads do not even seem to BE there anymore...This has happened to mearly all of my Maglights(At one time, they were nearly the only 'good' thing you could get around here...), and also some pilot's flashlights, and others that I have...
It almost makes me want to go back to Carbon/Zinc batteries(I only use good name brand Alk's these days), because I THINK that Al is resestant to that type of battery acid...

I don't know about chemicals in batteries, but Ti is pretty darn resistant to most things.

However, Ti isn't a great flashlight material for a number of reasons.

Instead of carbon-zinc, I'd look at lithium powered lights for long term storage. They have a shelf life of about ten years, are resistaint to cold.

For example, the Surefire G2 is a great deal for a very tough, bright little light.

There are also some great, low (ish) cost LED lights like this light that supports two levels, or this or this one cell light.

And the lithium cells can be had for around $1 ea. online.

-john

What are the reasons? Cost is the first one that comes to mind, but I'm curious what other ones there are...

My understanding is that while it does conduct electricity, it isn't a great conductor and typically the metal is part of the circuit. Not a showstopper, just an efficency thing. You could alway work around it.

It also conducts heat poorly, and for new (hi powered) LED lights, heat dissipation is importaint to conduct the heat away from the LED. This would suggest you would need to use something else for the heatsink or not use high output components.

While it is light and strong, it is heavier than aluminum, so in order to break even in weight, it has to be thinner than normal and most lights are pretty thin already.

It is also very difficult to machine which drives up the price.

Don't get me wrong, I love Ti. It's actually one of my favorite materials. But you got to do a lot of work to have it make sense in a flashlight.

-john (who has a Ti crowbar, handles for his knife, clips, etc.)

You do not have to convince me, I have been a member of www.candlepowerforums.com for a long time, and I have a QIII already... But I AM glad you posted that link, because they ahave the hard shell battery cases that www.countycomm.com are out of!!!

I also have been buying Surfire flashlight since before most people had heard of them... My first was the old 3 cell BLACK one with the round head...I even have the turbo head for it...
Also a E2D...
Also a 6 cell
and the weird looking one that can only be used for a min. before the thermal shutdown occurs, but MAN is it bright!!!
All told, somewere around $1000.00 of just Surfires!!!

Ok, thanks John. I was just curious what your take on this was. I'm perfectly happy with my aluminum flashlights, and for me, the body material is the least interesting part of a light -- I'm far more interested in the business end and power consumption.

My maglite had been corroded...The tail cap can't be open!

Plastics will not be corroded, so is it the best materials for flashlights now?

I've had it happen to me as well, and don't use Maglites for that purpose anymore.

But I think this is more about the batteries than the light material. I think alkalines self discharge fairly fast in this type of environment, and as I understand it, discharged batteries are prone to leakage. Then the leakage toasts the light.

I've had several different lithium based lights in the car and none of them have corroded, including aluminum ones.

Some other things to consider:

1) Even in a plastic light, if a battery dies and spews it's guts in there, it's going to be a major pain to clean out and in general, my guess is you'll probably throw it away anyway.

2) The plastic lights still have metal in them for the switches and to conduct the power, so you can't get away from it.

In general, I'd look for a lithium light like the Surefire G2, toss it in there and be happy.

Also note that you can get lithium batteries in the AA (and now, even in the AAA) size.

-john

Yes, that experience made me stay away from maglite...

Hey, JohnN, what about nimh batteries or lithium batteries? which are more safty for lights?

You can find some "D" sized Lithium batteries also... their 3.6v but you can use two in a 2-cell maglight and change out the bulb for a 5-cell bulb... get a brighter light, longer battery life, longer storage life, and I've never had a Lithium battery leak on me... THis setup gives you an 80-90 lumen light with Mag's Xenon bulb in a resonable size package. It is expensive ($40 and change for the upgrade), not really a viable option unless you have an old 2D-cell Maglite laying around.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by safety.

NiMh batteries are not suitable for lights you intend to store for a long time because they self-discharge very quickly.

If you have lights that you use frequently AND you use them correctly, NiMh batteries not only can be safe, but they can give great performance and lower costs.

Typically NiMh batteries retain the voltage they supply much better than alkaline batteries. Compare the graphs between alkaline and NiMH in these two great threads on CPF:

Alkaline Battery Shootout
NiMh Battery Shoot Out

So in general, NiMh batteries work well for high output lights. However, you must be careful not to over discharge them and careful when charging them. The best way to charge them is individually.

Because of their high capacity, this type of battery can be very useful, but they also need to be used a bit more carefully than alkaline batteries.

-john

I do this as well for some of my emergency lights. Note you can also get 3V lithium cells (instead of the 3.6V). Note even though these cells are both "lithium", they have different chemical makeup and have different physical construction. Different lithium chemistries and constructions can have very different capacity profiles. For example, the batteries I point to at HDS can supply high capacity loads, some of the D cell sized "lithium" batteries cannot.

However, I would not suggest doing this until you read up on the specific types of cells you intend to use. Some, like the ones I rfer to have VERY high amounts of power in them and can off-gas hydrogen.

Instead of just suggesting you read up on how to safely handle these batteries, I will instead suggest you read this cautionary tale on CPF:

A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

Keep in mind that the explosion in question is from a single 123A battery. The 123A battery is MUCH smaller than the D cell type lights to which we are refering.

Be careful out there!

-john

BTW, we should take the flashlight discussion (other than titanium flashlight discussion) off of Matt's thread.

-john

Does anyone make a USGI Canteen cup in Titanium?

Speaking as a member of the B.M.C. (British Mountain Council) t
e best reason for using Titanium is weight. It's use is becoming prevalent over here. Particularly in the lightweight, sports climbing community where weight is very much a consideration. Same strength for one fifth the weight of steel, say one half the weight of aluminum. A titanium flaslight might be overkill, but then again - why not? Cooking kit etc, oh yes, most definitly.