Montréal's subway as a perfect target

According to the SCRS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service) Montréal's subway would be a perfect target for a terrorist attack. Actually they know that there's an Al-Qaeda branch developing something via internet forums and paintball yards. And the question is not if it will happen or not but rather where and when!

Since I take Montréal's subway almost everyday, I'm questioning myself about how I can prepare for it. Should I sit in the first carriage or the last of the train for a better evacuation? I'm also reading the emergency procedures panel and imagining mentally and emotionally proceeding to the opening of the doors... etc. In terms of equippment I only have a LED light and mini Fox40 whistle on my key chain and a handkerchief. In my wallet I got some adhesive bandages but those are there especially for avoiding to stain my clothes when having minor cuts obviously... (I'm not going to carry a gas mask and a hard hat and big multi-tool.)

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealg...0e-f6549741bcfb

Frankie

Frankie:

Your post seems to be factual and genuine in its concern for users of a potential terrorist target.

What concerns me about this type of post is that it will give ideas to unbalanced publicity seeking malcontents who may not get this information otherwise.

I know that determined people will get as much information as they want, but I worry about sociopaths who are more numerous than political terrorists who might pick up the idea because the post leads them to a known easy target.

I was very impressed in a discussion about nitroglycerin that those people who knew how to make it didn't even list the ingredients necessary. They realize that even on a forum like this that does not generally draw malcontents (Frenchy, keep it zipped. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) there exists the potential for damage to the public good either through an accident or by intent.

Love your family and fellow man and relax as you are safer than if you were in an automobile.

Bountyhunter

Frankie, don't worry about your post somehow inspiring terrorists, psychos, or malcontents. I think you are smart to prepare for this sort of threat, and this is a perfect forum to post your questions.

In addition to your whistle, light, and handkerchief, I would seriously suggest a blade of some sort (if legal.) A multi-tool would be a good idea IMO; maybe a smaller one like the Leatherman Juice that can be discreetly carried in your pocket would work for you. I'm not a big believer in carrying bandaids and the like, but I see some merit in some sort of trauma pad if practicable. About 20' of 550# paracord (maybe used as shoelaces?) could come in handy.

I'm not familiar with Montreal's subway system, so obviously I can't advise you about evacuation. But you are already light years ahead of most people if you mark the exits and take the time to read the posted instructions.

Good luck. It seems we are truly all in this together.

Regards, Vince

Any thought of any kind of "accident" in the subway, would urge me to reinforce the bright side of my EDC : more light power (SF 6P), more LED lights (i.e. Inova T1, Nuwaï QIII, head lamp and the like...) and more batteries...

If you are not in the targeted car, you may have to walk or help people walk inside very dark tunnels ....
And as much as I like Photon micro-lights, I would prefer some other larger models on hands.

If blades are illegal then at the very least a SOG PowerLock may be the way to go because its a user-configurable heavy duty multi tool. You can remove the blades and replace them with any number of other tools that would be useful and legal to have with you.

I might look at something like that for myself if there were a smaller version. With the addition to my EDC of the RSK I am not that dependant upon multitool blades anymore. I am retiring my Wave in favor of a KF4 Juice for pocket carry. The RSK and Juice together only weigh about what the Wave did all by itself and increase my options to boot. No scissors on the Juice though--but I never used them that much anyway.

Regards, Vince

Dust protection, maybe. Good brand N95 (with valve works better) and some eye protection. I have NOT tried this, but I wonder if swimming goggles would be a good compromise between protection and compactness?

Swimming goggles seal best in a wet environment. They may work, but I'd invest in a dedicated unit.

Okay - problem solved!

All you need is an Exosuit with 48 man hours of life support...

<img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes that's an idea. I could fold the goggles and put them along with a 3m mask in a digital camera case or something like a waist pack. What about Dupont Evac-u8, would it be suitable? I don't know much about this product and if it's small enough.
Frankie

Hi Norad,

I'm thinking about buying a Leatherman Juice. As for the law about knives, I've read the civil code but it's not clear. All it says is no weapon are allowed in public places including knives. It says nothing about locking blades or anything. But you can carry a pocket knife in the style of a SAK. They kind of leave it to our common sense.

For the paracord, I made a bracelet as I saw in another post that I can wear comfortably on my ankle but in an emergency I think it would not be a good idea because I would have to undo it and it takes some time.

"It seems we are truly all in this together."

That's what I think and I'm perplexed about the attitude of politicians and people here who are acting like ostriches. They all seem to think that we're not a target like the US. But terrorism is something arbitrary that can hit anywhere under all sort of pretexts. Also, Canada is in the list of the five countries Bin Laden mentionned after 9/11. And it's important to understand that it's not directly related to Bush. During the 90s Bill Clinton wasn't the most warlike and yet they attempted to destroy the world trade center in february 1993 and there has been many other terrorist attacks on american ambassies throughout islamic countries. So if the politic of letting go and doing nothing didn't work out, maybe it was time to use another one. The war on Iraq may have been a mistake but the decisions had to be made and they didn't want weapons of mass destruction to fall in the hands of terrorists groups. It's always easier to rewrite history.

"don't worry about your post somehow inspiring terrorists, psychos, or malcontents."

It's not always as clear between political terrorists and malcontents and isolated psychopaths. They often work together. Political terrorists are looking to hire young malcontents with no future and desperate people. It's always the same pattern. So did Hitler. People could have something to eat when they were hired in the Brown Shirts. You seek poor young desperate people and you provide them with a cause, some slogans and the impression of participating in a great adventure...

Anyway I'll stop here because it's tough to write in english which is not my mother tongue and I don't want to go too deep in sensitive issues...

Frankie

Not to change the subject but your english is very good!

I was recently reading some archived posts in an old forum (that no longer exists) that used to be hosted by CJ Carracci where he had stated that if he was involved in a major disaster (like earthquake or terrorist attack) in a New York subway, the two things he would want the most would be a Leatherman tool and a flashlight.

You asked whether best to travel in front or rear of the train. Seems to me (I'm speculating, and could be totally wrong) that riding in a rear car, if given a choice, would be advisable. In the event of a collision, or encounter with something placed on the tracks, might some of the impact energy be dissipated towards rear of the train?

Reading accounts of several past subway mishaps, looks like deaths are frequently fire-related. In the worst subway disaster (1995, Azerbaijan): "Many of the 300 deaths were caused by carbon monoxide poisoning when toxic materials (vinyl and plastic seat cushions) in the subway cars caught fire."

Despite your opposition to carrying a "gas mask" (can't say I blame you), why not consider one of the small emergency smoke hoods. If you're convinced there's a high likelihood of an incident, and you're serious about making reasonable preparations, something to think about.

This one, for example, claims 20+ minutes of carbon monoxide, toxic gas and smoke protection, and carry size is only 5-in. x 3-in. x 3-in. and weighs 12 oz.

I see the Montreal subway system characterized as "the world's most extensive system of interconnected pedestrian and Metro subway networks...linking buildings...." This being the case, do you carry a small, but accurate map of the system (or at least the section you travel) to help locate escape routes?

I second the recommendation to upgrade the light source you carry. Dense smoke would challenge a keychain light. Maybe something like a small 1- or 3-watt LED flashlight, and a spare battery. One example: my 3-watt Nuwai QIII takes one 3-volt lithium battery, puts out lots of light, and is just 3-1/2-inches long.

Does each subway car have its own emergency equipment (tool for breaking out glass, first aid kit etc) on board? If so, knowing where it's located, and what it contains, would be essential knowledge.

Finally, given the complexity of the underground maze, I wonder if a small compass, used with your map of the system, would be of any use (or might underground minerals make inoperable)?

Good luck with your quest.

Dan

I'm familiar with only a few malcontents in Canadian history; Louis Riel and Albert Johnson, AKA the Mad trapper of Rat River ( and he seems to have been a norwegian- american.) That, and a family of anglais from Vancouver who sold out to chinese immigrants, turned snowbirds and bought a local horse ranch. Never wear a beret on Bastille Day around people who think Chunky Woodward epitomized style <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> You can't influence authorities or evil people. You can influence your fellow commuters. Perhaps a discussion through various mediums locally will generate greater awareness and solutions.

I live in NYC and ride the subway regularly, so I'm pretty much in the same boat (train) as you.

Riding the last car is a good idea, although at night I usually ride in the front car, both because only the front of the train opens at the station I usually go to, and because that's where the motorman is, should I have an encounter with some malcontents (of the ordinary hit-you-over-the-head-and-take-your-wallet criminal variety) - the back of the train is pretty desolate late at night. Otherwise I usually ride in the last car.

I'd definitely upgrade the flashlight - I carry a Pelican M6, although any of the Streamlight or Surefire line would work as well. If you're going to light up a subway tunnel, this is the way to do it. If you've never seen one of these lights before, you must.

My jacket has a back pocket (like a game pocket) and I keep a folded orange reflective vest in there.

Also, being a ham radio operator (call N2ZLQ) I carry around a Yaesu VX-7R. It's a ham transceiver, but with broadband RX coverage, and I have the transit frequencies programmed in, so if the train gets stuck someplace I can hear what's going over the radio. The PA announcements are almost worthless, although even the stuff that goes over the air isn't the most useful either - NYCT keeps their road crews woefully uninformed.

Would Surefire give you light long enough before the batteries went dead? Aren't most around 60 min at max output? I know they go for hours at min output. How bright is min output on a surefire?

My Surefire G2Z only has max output. Somebody on this forum suggested one of the LED drop-in mods. I just checked and they are $35.00 but out of stock. They will up the runtime to 4 hours. I think that may be a better investment than the spare xenon bulb that I was going to get.

Regards, Vince

Chris,

you should know about Marc Lepine (his real name was Gamel Gharbi, the sun of an Algerian muslim father. Something that the authorities and media covered up for politically correctness I guess) because he really marked Canadian history and it took place here in Montréal, at the polytechnic school in december 1989. He shot 14 women and killed himself. People and the media portrayed him as being a psychotic spree killer but he had a purpose behind his act and it's clear that he had a political terrorist side, fighting feminism.

A quote in his letter talking about feminists:
"They want to retain the advantages of being women...while trying to grab those of men..."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/marc_lepine/

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/spree-killers/marc-lepine/

(There are tons of information about him on the internet.)

Frankie

My Pelican is rated at 60 lumens output for 1.25 hours. Most of the others are similar. Some of the Surefires have an optional hi-output lamp assembly good for about 20 minutes. I don't think this is worth it though - 20 minutes is rarely enough, and if the batteries aren't fresh, you only expect them to last, on average, maybe 10 minutes. If you really *need* the brighter light, go with one of the larger 4- or 6- battery Surefires, which runs brighter for the full hour.

But an hour is good enough for most emergencies. If you know you're going to need light for longer (if you're a security guard, police office or participating in a search-and-rescue operation, or in an extended blackout, for example) you need something bigger, or preferably, rechargable (to defray the cost of going through batteries like candy). One of the longer Mags will last about 12-16 hours per set of 'D' batteries, and makes a pretty good club - actually IMHO it is better as a club than it is a flashlight. The Streamlight Stinger is intermediate in size, and rechargable.

If you use CR123A batteries, buy them in bulk online (usually they come in packs of 12 for about US$15-20). In a pinch you can pick up a pair at a store (ask for "digital camera batteries"), but you can expect to pay about US$4-5 for *each* battery.

In my estimation, I get more than 1.25 hours total because I usually only use it for short bursts with relatively long "off" periods in between, so the battery is used somewhat more efficiently (when it runs continuously, the Ah rating is somewhat lower). Unfortunately, unlike alkaline batteries, they tend to die all of a sudden, so all you get is a few minutes' warning of diminished output, and then darkness. So I carry a spare set of batteries in a jacket pocket, so that's always available.

Add to that a small MiniMag or similar 2-AA or LED pocket light, or even a keychain light, which can be pressed into service if the main light fails, and also can be used so you can see while replacing the batteries in the main light. For something as important as light, one is none, and two is one.

You could even kick in a cyalume glowstick if you've got the carry space - these are useful if there are suspicions of flammable gas - don't want any electrical switches being actuated in an instance like that.

As far as bulbs go, I purchased a spare bulb when I got the light (for an extra $6 or so), but I haven't yet had to replace the bulb after almost a year of light-duty work. It's not like my old MiniMag, where I'd need a new bulb after every second or third set of batteries.

Surefire now has some lights which include both an incandescent lamp and LEDs arranged around the bezel, with options for "low" (LED), or "high" (incandescent) settings.

But I prefer to have two physically separate lights in separate pockets, with spare batteries in another pocket still - the redundancy is total in case one gets lost, and the price is cheaper. In particular, you can use the light of one to change the batteries or the bulb, or to find the other if you drop it.

I like to have BOTH the illumination power of a 6P (or G2 etc...) along with spare batteries + another lower power/longer life LED light ....
I also have an equivalent of Twin task Streamlight : you can swith on 3 LEDs or 6 LEDs or 1 Xenon bulb, in the same unit. Different powers, different run times also.

But IMHO 2 different lights (using the same batteries) are much better, if only for redondancy.
As someone pointed out, a LED light won't do miracles if smoke is invited to your party !! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Then a Surefire (or other brand) xenon light will pay for its price.

Anyway, even a somewhat powerful LED light (i.e. Nuwai QIII) will only give 1.5h of full output (and then several hours of reduced output).
Spare batteries are a must, anyway you look at it, if you EDC a flashlight.

I also have a Pelican M6 - very sturdy light, and it's often the main light I have in the bag I carry daily on the subway. Another plus, besides those mentioned by physics137, is that the LED drop-in module that Norad45 mentioned for his Surefire lights will also work in the Pelican M6. That makes it a very attractive option, in my opinion.

Other possible lights, with a less powerful beam than the Pelican M6 or similar Surefire light, would be either an Underwater Kinetics 4AA eLED (around 10 hours of light) or a Streamlight 4AA Propolymer 1-watt LED light - about 4 hours of light.

As a backup light, I've been carrying a CMG Infinity Ultra...if it's not a matter of smoke conditions, but merely dark, that one should be adequate, and has a very long runtime on a fresh AA battery.

And rather than chemical lights, I plan to carry 5-10 or so of the $1.25 Photon keychain light clones. Smaller and cheaper than chemlights, I've thought these might be a good option - the kind of thing that, in case of another blackout or a stuck train that needed to be evacuated, could be handed out to other passengers - more people have light, people can light obstructions for others, or lights could be duct taped to a spot to shine on an obstruction so everyone can avoid it without everyone bunching around the one or two people who might have a light (no one wants to be that popular).

In addition, I carry a water bottle (if it's even something mundane like trak work/power outage, you could be down there a long time).

Also, I carry a Leatherman Wave, hoping it could be useful (some of the NYC subway doors have Phillips-head screws holding the window panes in them).
While on the topic, anyone know ways (in an emergency only) of exiting a subway car? I know there are panels accessible by the large keys the conductor has, but are there other ways of unlocking or forcing the doors open, other than a battering ram?

Dave

I'm thinking that one of those less powerful options might be more handy in a smoky environment. I'm thinking of the back scatter effect when driving in fog with your high beams on - no good. You obviously want a little more power than a Photon II to cut through the smoke but less than a high intensity white that just creates glare. Seems to me when I was a VFD type our flashlights had diffuser lenses on them to help with that. I'm not saying a Surefire wouldn't be handy in some scenarios but if you're worried about a smoke filled subway then there might be better options

Frankie, I remember that sad incident. I believe one victim was found with a handgun in her possessions. How ironic, she was probably as fearfull of prosecution as using it to possibly save herself and others. The 'nuts and bolts' of preparing for a possible attack are hard enough. Fear is what the current crop of evil wishes to sow, with the harvest a world society that self destroys the very freedoms they loath. Be alert on your commutes, but include in that awareness pretty girls, elderly people that need public courtesy and lost american tourists <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Dave,

Greetings from Manhattan!

Interesting point about the LED drop-in module being compatible with the Pelican M6 - I wasn't aware of that.

As far as getting out of a subway car, in general, the doors at the car ends are unlocked, except:

(1) the train end doors are always locked

(2) on trains with full-width conductor's cabs, those doors are locked.

(3) on trains with 75' cars, all the car end doors are locked - this means all trains on the D, G, Q, R, S-Franklin, S-Rockaway, V, and some trains on the A, F, N, and W - the rest all use 51' (IRT) or 60' (BMT/IND) cars with end doors unlocked. And on the 75 footers, the end door windows can be punched out in an emergency (they're surrounded by a rubber gasket).

My opinion is, the best way out in an emergency evacuation is through an unlocked end door. The chains spanning between the cars can be unhooked, and you can jump approx. 4 1/2 feet to the track level below. A word of caution: On the IRT lines the third rail extends out past the train itself, so take care not to land on it (on BMT/IND lines the third rail is pretty much underneath the car body). The third rail is covered but don't depend on the cover holding!

That said, the tunnels are off-limits, so if you leave the train without permission from the train crew, you stand a good chance of being arrested if you're caught walking on the track level.

That also said, if people, including pregnant women, the elderly and small children are forced to be trapped in a crowded, dark, sweltering train without as much as a half-decent announcement as to what is going on and are completely unable to contact the outside world through cell phones or otherwise (and this was the case for many people for upwards of 2 hours back in the big blackout last summer), I'll be the first person off that train. If they arrest me, jail can't be much worse than being stuck on that train.

Of course, if somebody follows you out, falls down and fries themself on the third rail, their family will sue you (and the city). This is true whether or not you held a gun to their head and forced them to follow you.

How would you see a blade being used in the kind of scenario we are talking about?

I'd have thought you'd be surrounded by metal, stone, plastic, cloth and glass. Something solid and heavy to break glass with might be an option, but maybe there are emergency hammers provided on the trains? Nowadays I try to carry a hacksaw blade, which is small, light and non-threatening, but in a subway emergency I doubt there would be enough time to actually cut metal.

I agree about the multi-tool, and I like the Juice range too - especially the CS4. It has a woodsaw and scissors, as well as all the screwdrivers and the pliers. I'd use it as a hammer in a pinch. The scissors could be useful for cutting clothing away, either to help free people who are stuck or for first aid, getting at wounds and improvising bandages, slings and splints. I can't see me doing much with the blade. I'd rather a CS4 than one of Doug's RSKs in this scenario.

Does the panel think the Zipka Plus would be a powerful enough light?

It's got 4 LEDs, the batteries last for 10s of hours even on full power, and it leaves your hands free which may be important if you are scambling over rubble or carrying out babies etc. The versions with wide head-straps may be more comfortable but the Zipka takes much less room.

(I'm kinda hoping you-all say "yes" because it's my mainstay.)

The front carriage can be safer than the second or third carriage - the engine can give some protection from impacts. The very last carriage is probably not the best place to be if the train is rammed by another train from behind. Otherwise all the information I have says further back is generally safer.

If you haven't got light underground, it doesn't really matter what else you have, does it?

What if you "sealed" swim goggles with Vasoline?

Would a Res-Q-me escape tool be useful for escape from a subway car?

"...if you leave the train without permission from the train crew, you stand a good chance of being arrested..." ("THANK GOD! I DEMAND that you arrest me and get me out of here!")

Do compasses work in subway tunnels (with the metal tracks)?

Do ham radios work underground?

Sue

Hi back.
Thanks for the info on the subway cars...I knew the general facts, but it's good to see the system broken down like that. Also, very nice to hear about the rubber gaskets and that they could be pushed out. Wondering if there's a way to open the end doors from the outside on those cars (mostly thinking of the F)? Lots of people would not be able to squeeze out those windows (I think it would be tricky without help even if you fit).
And I understand the third rail info loud and clear.
I was in the subway when the blackout occurred - very luckily, aboveground, so we had daylight, could see around us, some could get cell reception, I could hear on my radio the news reports as the extent of the outage was more fully reported...but being underground would have been really terrible, especially in summer in a rush hour packed car (can you imagine being stuck in the Lex line like that?)
Even aboveground, we were in the car for 45 minutes before they decided to evacuate us, and even with the last car still being in direct contact with the platform, it took a LONG time for everyone to file through the train and out to the platform. People were mostly patient and polite, but overcrowding/heat/darkness/no info would REALLY change that dynamic, I think. That's the first time I started considering how else to get out of the car...and decided I needed to have some water on me always.

Brangdon: the first car info might work for regular trains, but there's no single engine car on the NYC subways...each car has electric-powered wheels, all power mechanisms under the chassis. Also, there are no hammers or other safety devices/tools aboard...just a pull cord for the emergency brake at each end of a car.

Dave

I can't imagine cutting up a couple of dozen bandages and slings with the tiny scissors on a multitool--not if I had a knife blade available anyway. And for cutting away clothing the sheepsfoot-type blade on the multitool would be far superior to scissors as well. I agree that for a subway incident the multitool would most likely be a little more useful than a larger folder, but as they say: "that's why I carry both." <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I looked at the CS4 and liked it, but I decided that for my purposes (rural, suburban, and wilderness rather than urban), the KF4 would be better for me. It really came down to the scissors vs. the awl. You really can't go wrong with either one.

Regards, Vince

>>Wondering if there's a way to open the end doors from the outside on those cars (mostly thinking of the F)? Lots of people would not be able to squeeze out those windows (I think it would be tricky without help even if you fit).<<

I *believe* that the end doors can be opened from the outside, once the window is knocked out, but I haven't tried it myself so I'm not sure. Again, it's only on the 75-foot cars that the end doors are locked - the F line mostly used 75' R46's, but also runs some 60' R32's (The R32's are the ones with the corrugated metal all the way up and down the sides and the route designation directly above the end door; the R46's have the LED signs on the sides and six metal stripes in two groups of three on the sides.)

In any event, it's a good incentive to stay in shape so I can climb out through the window just in case <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some of the people trapped underground were stuck there for over 2 hours, from reports I've heard. Temperatures were often in excess of 90 degrees, the trains were completely dark, aside from any lighting carried by passengers or crew, many of the trains were crowded (SRO or worse), including children, the elderly, and physically ill or pregnant women in a few cases. No cell phone service or radio reception of any kind for the most part, no PA announcements, other than an occasional walkthrough by a TA employee, who usually didn't know much more than any of the passengers on the train.

Completely unacceptable. Yes, it's an exigent circumstance, but there is absolutely no reason why it had to be like that.

Wow I had no idea that there is that much of a difference when smoke is a factor. Do some lights really cut through smoke *alot* better than others? Maybe I should dust off my old CPF login and pose this question over there for details?

Thanks; it's always interesting to hear divergent views . The Vic Spirit is the only multitool I know of with a blunt-ended sheeps-foot blade. The blade on the CS4 I actually carry is rather more pointy than I'd like near my skin. Ditto the RSK. If I have to use a reaonable amount of force, I'd prefer scissors. Especially if it is some stranger about to use it on me <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The CS4 has both scissors and awl (and wood saw). The main thing you give up is the file/metal saw.

If the CS4 has an awl then I would find that mildly annoying, as Leatherman doesn't list it as one of its features:

http://www.leatherman.com/products/tools/cs4/default.asp

I'm not sure that I would not have opted for the file over the scissors anyway, but it's nice to have the correct information before buying!

Regards, Vince

Edit: The awl IS listed in the descriptive paragraph below where the features are listed. Thanks for the correction!

>>Would a Res-Q-me escape tool be useful for escape from a subway car?<<

Probably not, as most train windows are made from Plexiglas or similar materials, and many also have layers of sticky material over them, so that when vandals try to scratch the windows with keys or whatever they have on hand (scratchiti) it just gums up, and the layers can be replaced. Besides, if the windows could be shattered that easily, the vandals would be doing that every night.

Some of the windows are designed to pop out, with rubber gaskets around the edges. And the end doors are usually unlocked, except in the cases noted above (on the longer cars for safety reasons, at the train ends, and past the conductor's position in the middle of the train if the conductor has a full-width cab)

>>("THANK GOD! I DEMAND that you arrest me and get me out of here!")<<

That would have been my thought had I been trapped in the blackout - even jail can't be much worse than that train!

>>Do compasses work in subway tunnels (with the metal tracks)?<<

a. I'm not sure but I will try.

b. Not that it makes much of a difference anyway - if you know where you're going in the train, you know about which way the train is facing, so finding direction below ground isn't that hard.

A compass is most useful when you emerge from below - sometimes the stairs wrap around a few times or you go through turns in the mezzanine and it's easy to lose track of where you're facing when you emerge.

>>Do ham radios work underground?<<

In the underround sections (most of Manhattan, the under-river tunnels, and some of the lines in Brooklyn and Queens), no. The tunnels are surrounded by metal on all sides.

Then there are lines that run in open cuts (trenches) where utility is limited to nearby contacts within reasonable line-of-sight, and embankment/elevated lines where ham radio, and cell phones as well, work just fine. These are mostly found in the outer boroughs.

In the underground portions of the NYC subway system, and much of the open cut portions, cell phones don't work either, although there are some other transit systems where cell phone repeaters have been installed in the tunnels so at least one service works.

That said, on the subway portions, if you pump 5W into a reasonably high-gain antenna, you can certainly reach other people on the train, and possibly someone not too far away on the surface, but I haven't done any systematic experimentation to find out. As for hitting a repeater, unless it were literally right above you, I'd highly doubt it and even then it's not likely.

One experiment I have done involved the N line in brooklyn, which runs in an uncovered trench. From inside the train, I couldn't reach a guy who was about half a mile away on one of the station platforms, this running 5W on 2 meters into a nearly full-size 1/4 wave vertical. I could reach a nearby repeater and pick up broadcast stations, however - it's all about line of sight.

About the most useful a ham transceiver, at least in the underground parts, would be is to pick up Transit communications - they have a system of repeaters in the tunnels. Theoretically, if one knew the input frequencies and the PL tones, and modified the radio to transmit out-of-band, one could talk to them as well, in a dire emergency.

Thanks for the info, Physics137! I've never been in a subway, have just seen them on tv. Raised in CA, I just don't like being underground for anything.

Sue

I know a lot of people who don't like riding the subway, but after trying to find parking in the city for a couple months and getting tickets every so often, or spending 2 hours on the bus trying to go 3 miles, you start to sing a different tune...

I would definately prefer scissors as well--but full-sized ones, not those itty-bitty multitool variations. But your comments on the serrated blade got me thinking. I think that the serrated sheepsfoot blade as is would be at least marginally safer for cutting away clothing than either the straight blade on the Juice or the Ritter. But after grinding off the tip and maybe the first 3/16" or so of the edge I think it would be quite a bit safer. In two years of carry I've never used the serrated blade on my Wave for anything anyway so it's not like I'll be losing much.

Now I just have to get up the guts to shove my brand-new toy up against a grinding wheel. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

Susan:

You can always visit the Roy Rogers museum and get instructions on how to be permanently stuffed and mounted so your loved ones don't have to bury you when you pass on. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

they'd still be burying most of you seeing as how taxidermy only requires the skin. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, a number of folding hunting knives have dedicated gutting blades that would be very safe to use to cut clothing away from the body. The blades frequently have convex spines, rounded tips (decidedly non-pointed), and the first 1/4" or so of the blade unsharpened. A well known example is the gutting blade on a Victorinox Hunter.

John

Geez,
All this worry about cutting someone/hook blades for gutting etc

Back when I was first shown how to gut a deer, I was shown a VERY simple way to prevent from nicking the guts - works well for other situations too. I _WILL_ admit it works BEST with a fairly shot blade (say 4" or less)

Choke up on the knife - way up, and put your index finger along the back of the blade - basically, you cover the POINT of the knife of the blade with your fingertip! Your finger goes "inside" (towards what you don't want to cut)

No special blades needed - just a nice general purpose blade

I have a guthook on my Buck PBS Crosslock. It's got a saw too. I love it. I'd EDC it if it had pliars and screwdrivers <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It's the S30V version of this one:
http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/378/224

Regards, Vince

That's a nice knife. Never seen that one before.

"Guthook". That's a new one to me. Is it to hook the gut or AVOID hooking the gut???

Sue

If we are talking feild dressing then it is to avoid it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hooking the gut = messy messy messy. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Vince,

That's a good looking knife.

John

When Cabelas carried a special run of them in S30V I had to have one. But then I got skunked on last years elk hunt so I don't yet know how well it works. Maybe this year.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

The "hook" on the tip is what carries the cutting edge. That way you can draw the blade up the stomach the same way you would use a rescue hook. The skin is slit open but the intestines underneath are unscathed. As Brian says, less messy that way.

They are certaintly not necessary to field dress an animal; I used an Old Timer Woodsman with a 5" drop point blade for years. But they are a little more forgiving when you make a mistake.

Regards, Vince

Vince,

You have my commiseration on the elk hunt. For the past few years we have done all of our big game hunting in our home state. We have definitely had some lean hunts.


Susan,

In addition to what Brian and Vince have said, the gut hook is essentially a simplifier when it comes to gutting game. It makes accidentally penetrating the entrails with your knife (a very messy mistake you learn never to repeat) unlikely.

I have cleaned a lot of deer with a Buck Pathfinder with its near clip point blade without ever puncturing the guts. The technique I use is to pull the hide away from the guts, insert the knife held in the right hand with blade under the hide and cut outward. I simultaneously place my left hand under the knife with the forefinger and middle finger on the left and right sides of the blade at the tip so as to put some space between the hide and the guts. It's actually a lot easier to do than to describe.

John

Hello, all, I am a frequent reader of these boards and this site, but I thought I would just register to add to this thread as a Montrealer and as one with some expertise in law, specifically regarding weapons.

I'm unaware of any Quebec Civil Code regulations surrounding weapons and after some research in a number of places I still can't track anything down. But in any case, I wouldn't worry as the QCC only covers civil law; that is, you do not really have to worry about the police arresting you and sending you to prison for violating the civil code.

You do have to worry about violating the Criminal Code of Canada, which does not vary from province to province. However, based on the Criminal Code, you may carry a knife as long is you aren't intending to hurt anyone with it, and it is not designed expressly for hurting people.

I carry a fixed blade on my belt and a folder in my pocket, and a multitool too, for that matter, and it is perfectly legal. It is illegal to carry a CONCEALED weapon, but then the definition of "weapon" in Canada is any thing that is designed or intended to hurt or injure and individual, plus a few obscure martial arts weapons. So a knife is absolutely fine. There's plenty of case law which establishes a knife as "not designed to injure/kill" in and of itself.

I take the subway regularly with my fixed blade, and although I've occasionally had to explain to the security people that it is legal and they may not see, touch, or have it, no one has ever tried to take it away beyond an initial request.

I don't carry a flashlight, though, but after reading this thread I believe I will!

Thanks Misant for the relevant information. I think it's tough to find information about that on the internet. It's not clear. I've heard that the blade shouldn't exceed the width of the palm of your hand but I think this is a law for the Scout that became popular.

Frankie

Yes, I think you're exactly right about the Scout thing!

Canadian law is designed in such a way as to allow a lot of leeway in terms of ruling and sentencing in court. For instance, if you are carrying a sharp pencil with the intent of hurting someone, that is a crime. If you are carrying an axe home from the store, it is not a crime.

In some ways this seems ridiculous, but then in other ways it's rather good. So always remember that as long as you are not carrying anything for the sake of hurting others, (and I hope this is true anyway) you are not violating the law. I hope that's helpful!

I don't think it's ridiculous, I think it's GREAT!

Here in the U.S., our judicial system has totally lost touch with the intent of the laws, and only go by the LETTER of the law, no matter how stupid it may be.

Sue