Another scenario -- Hotel

For the second time, I was a guest in a hotel that had the fire/smoke alarm go off. For those who have not had the experience, its quite disconcerting.

Both times its was late night and the alarm went off throughtout the building. Neither time was it a fire.

What I learned and noticed:

1.The front desk told us to stay in our rooms...?
2. Because of practice/ habit all my essentials were at hand and I was dressed and out the door in 30 seconds...
3. Except socks, which resuuted in a "hotspot" pre-blister in walking less than a block
4. I did forget to check the door for heat/ smoke BEFORE opening it
5. I was the only person in the stairwells
6. It took the fire dept 10 minutes to get to the hotel. Later on I located the fire station only 4 blocks away...Hmmm
7. The batteries in my flashlight were low -- Hadn't checked them before the trip

So, what can we learn?

Teacher RO

Sounds like you did better than everyone else. How did you find the stairs? Bonus points for
locating them before you went to bed. :-)

Low batteries shouldn't have been a problem IF you were carrying more than one flashlight. I have
one on my keychain (Arc AAA) and a larger one in my pocket (Arc 4). I use the larger flashlight for
everything, saving the keychain light for situations like this, where there's a problem with the
primary flashlight. (Sounds like a lot of flashlights, but the AAA is only a little bigger than the
battery, so I hardly notice it. And I like having a lot of flashlight in my pocket, so I carry the '4.)

Congrats for completely ignoring the "front desk". If a fireman tells me to stay in my room, well,
I might. Anyone else....

Oh, and most of all, good for you for not taking time to find out if there really was a fire. Get out,
then figure it out.

Did you remember to take your room key with you?

I used to work in Las Vegas. One day a welder set the Riviera hotel on fire (he was required by law to keep a fire extinguisher nearby, but it was a nuisance to carry it around full, so he kept it empty.)

First, smoke filled the casino. Casino employees nearly had to drag several people out, away from the slot machines. Others were vocally abusive because they wanted to finish their hand at the tables.

The alarms went off in the attached hotel, where there were a considerable number of handicapped people staying.

Many of the physically mobile people bolted and ran down the stairs, passing people who were waiting for the elevator. Firemen had to commandeer the elevator and transported only handicapped people, much to the dismay of totally able people who didn't think they should have to use the stairs.

One elderly man whose wife was in a wheelchair was trying to figure out how to get her down the stairs. A large young man plucked her out of her wheelchair and carried her down five flights of stairs.

Nearly everyone forgot to take their room key with them, as they discovered when they were allowed to return to their rooms.

Sue

Oh. Oh my.

I'm a firefighter.

First of all, you risked not only your own life, but by entering a stairwell, had there been a real fire, you may have risked the lives of others by moving smoke from where is was to where it wasn't.

Hotels in the USA have a number of critical safety features, including 2+ hour rated doors, in-room sprinklers and floor-by-floor fire communications systems.

If you're below the fire floor, you should stay in the room, with the door closed. Get dressed, get your room key and a wet towell in case there's an "auto-exposure" situation where the fire moves DOWN (almost impossible).

If you're on or above the fire floor, for the most part, your room is going to be the most secure place to stay, in the vast majority of cases. Smoke is your biggest problem, and you can hold smoke out of the room with a wet towel at the base of the door.

Sprinklers will also kick on, not to put out the fire, but to reduce the smoke levels.

FWIW - there has never been a fire fatality in a properly sprinklered building. Not one.

As far as the 10 minute fire response time, the national goal (NFPA 1071) is 6 minutes, which, if you are a firefighter, you know is often unrealistic due to staffing issues and funding. And - to be honest - an automatic alarm call is - 99.98% of the time - a false alarm, so you might not see the kind of huge response you'd expect. Especially with a "chronic" alarm system, as this one sounds.

That's good information to know. My first response--especially since 9-11-01, would have been to GET OUT as soon as possible. I'll rethink that now, especially if I am below the fire. But assuming the front desk doesn't tell you, how are you supposed to know where the fire is?

Regards, Vince

I do not think 10 minutes for the Fire Department to arrive is unreasonable, if that is the time from activation of the local (smoke/heat detector) to arrival. Keep in mind many local alarms are just that, a notice to the occupancies to evacuate the premises. Someone must still call 911 or if the alarm system is through a commercial alarm company, they must contact 911. From time of the call to 911 it can take 1-2 minutes to gather the information, depending upon the jurisdiction they may or may not have computer assisted dispatching, it still takes a minute or so to get the information into the system and the system to activate the appropriate Fire Department alarm systems. At night it might take an extra minute or so for the personal to wake up and respond with the equipment. I know when an emergency arises, it can seem like an eternity for emergency services to arrive on the scene, but as it has been mentioned in other posts time perception can be significantly distorted.

The only comment on the front desk informing you to stay in your rooms: They may have been having problems with their system, knew from where the alarm was activated and was able to check out that there was no fire. However, I still think you did the right thing and would have done the same.

Pete

Martin,

Interesting, my instructors taught that stairwells were designed as safe zones for building evacuations in case of fire and that they are constructed to reduce smoke entering them. We were taught that floors below the fire floor should be evacuated via the stairwells. I will have to check with a couple of current instructors, to see what the current SOGs are for hotel evacs.

Pete

I'm not a fire fighter, so I obviously can't disgree with you on procedure. Sounds reasonable, even.

But if the alarm goes off, I'm outta there. Especially if I see or smell smoke. I suppose if the fire was
burning right outside the room and I couldn't get out, I'd stay, but short of that...

It doesn't sound like it's going to be an issue, really. Nearly all people are lazy sheep. The stairs
should be relatively uncrowded (empty?) even in a real emergency. If the only issue with using the
stairs is admitting smoke, lets all make sure we close the door behind us. (I figured you'd say
something about so many people coming down the stairs that fire fighters would have a tough time
going up. Didn't that happen during 9/11?)

What's the advice given on the little door plaques in each room? You know, the one's with the map
about where you are, and where the nearest exits are? I've looked dozens of times, and can't
remember a word.

Martin, please understand... I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know enough to argue. But it
just feels so... wrong. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Can you give us some idea of what people actually do in this situation?
Do they stay in their rooms? If they evacuate, do they make it out, or die on the way?

With all due respect, I'm not sure that I agree.

All modern buildings pressurize the stairwells when the fire alarm goes off. This keeps them from filling with smoke. (Older buildings, I'm not sure about.)

Most alarms are reasonably sensitive, so (in theory) if the alarm goes off, the fire *should* be relatively small. At that point, I'd contend that the best course of action would be to get the heck out before it gets big.

Also, if many people stay in their rooms and the fire gets big, firefighters would have to rescue everyone! Based on the number of firefighters responding vs. the possible number of guests...I don't think I'd want to trust those odds.

I'd think that the most secure place to stay would be across the street!

I hope that no one here has to test either theory!

A fireman in Las Vegas told me that most smoke alarms in the hotels have been set off by cigarettes smoldering in the ashtrays located in the hallways, often near the elevators. People are in a hurry, and just toss it in, neglecting to crush it out.

Martin, your info is interesting, probably true, but to stay in my room with the building possibly on fire might require more nerve than I've got.

Sue

Yes, I had my key.

The essentials -- glasses, pants, shoes, id, light, key are all on/by the bedside tatble so its grab and go...

TRO

Stairwell = chimney.

Pressurized stairwell? Uh hu - and from whence is the intake for the fans? The basement you say? Ah, yes, where those nice smoky transformer fires are.

>Stairwell = chimney.

Not so.

Please don't scare people away from using the stairs. The best course of action is to get out immediately, and the stairs are the safest course.

Smoke control is a basic requirement for today's buildings. No system is perfect, but there are some very intelligent folks that have put a lot of thought into these systems. If you Google using key words like fire, alarm, pressurized, and stairwell, you should come up with links like this:

http://www.esmagazine.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/coverstory/BNPCoverStoryItem/0,2500,65962,00.html

(the following information is from this link)

Engineered smoke control systems are incorporated into a building's design to prevent the loss of life and property. These systems consist of dedicated mechanical fans for the purpose of controlling smoke migration within a building. Alternatively, fans that normally serve the building's hvac systems can use building automation system (bas) controls to modify operation to provide building smoke control. Smoke control systems are incorporated in building design to allow safe egress during smoke and fire incidents, provide firefighter staging areas, and provide areas of "safe haven" for those who may have difficulty evacuating.

Past disasters have shaped current codes and standards (Sidebar). Operating parameters for these systems have been formulated by studying fires and the physical conditions encountered in spaces engulfed in thermal smoke. Because no value can be assigned to a human life, systems must be designed, constructed, and maintained such that past failures are not repeated and additional human life and property is not lost.

Some of the most common smoke control system requirements and recommendations for high-rise buildings by local and model building codes, the NFPA, and ASHRAE include:


A smokeproof enclosure (fire-rated stairwell), with vented vestibules at each floor;
Positively pressurized egress stairwells;
Floor pressure sandwich schemes to contain smoke within the zone of incidence;
Zoned smoke control compartments on each floor;
Air-handling unit (AHU) shutdown and smoke purge;
Firefighters' hands-off auto override controls;
Sprinkler system waterflow switches and manual pull station system activation; and
Elevator hoistway pressurization.

...

I'll look into the county SOG's but last time we were in the classroom, they were quite clear that the firefloor and above are the only areas considered "active" in a hotel fire - the rest of the hotel is considered uninvolved.

you think 4 blocks and 10 minutes are bad? I was working in a building that had a fire alarm triggered, it took the FD about that long to get there. sad thing is we were right behind the FD, across the street, but because of the way the streets are designed around there, the firetruck had to take the "long way" around to get to us.

Very good point. Until the WTC attacks, the MGM Grand fire in Vegas was probably the most studied structure fire in America, and it resulted in changes to all the building code standards, but it took/still is taking years for them to be adopted.

If any of you have any stroke in your communities, try to get them to adopt the very latest standards from whatever code compliance councel they are a member of, and from NFPA [National Fire Protection Association].

There are ots more smoke deaths than dead hikers.

Pete,
You are right stairwells are a safe area.

In most modern high rises the stairwells (or fire towers) should be equiped with self closing doors, panic hardware, increased lighting, vents and sometimes fans that open either automatically or can be controlled by building engineers/fire department. Yes, opening up a door may let smoke into the stairwell of onto your floor however if the door isn't blocked open the damage should be minimal. Of course a smoke charged stairwell shouldn't be entered and another means of egress should be found. In some cases the FD may choose to use a tower for fire operations and restrict access to that one while the remaining towers are used for escape and rescue. Once you enter a tower you should not exit unless you have reached the outside or are directed by the FD. Of course, it always isn't that simple and some situations may require different actions. However, getting to safety without harming others should be your number one priority.

Today, especially after disasters like One Meridian Plaza, MGM Grand Fire and Pioneer International to name a few, highrises are much safer than they were in the past.

You did the right thing, and reconize your mistakes (not checking the doors is a major one). So... this was practice incase the unthinkable happens.

Pooch, great post... sorry I didn't see it before I posted my own!

As far as fire department response times go there are a number of factors to take into consideration.
First, what is the FD's policy for fire alrams? Some FD's respond without lights and sirens to alarms especially to address with freq, false alarms.
Second, was the first due truck avalible? Some people tend to forget how busy a fire company can be. If the first due comapnay is already on a call it will take longer for the second or even third due company to arrive.
Third, how long did it actually take for FD dispatch to recieve the call. Automatic alarms aren't always "Automatic" and may be screened by the alarm monitoring company. In larger occupancies they may actually be monitored on site and require an operator or security guard to call.

Of course, the company may be dragging their feet because the know that they run to this address everyday and either find nothing or get canceled before they get their each and every time in the past...It is the cry wof syndrome, and unfortunatly human nature.

My impression of how fire actions are supposed to work (at least in buildings such as this) is that the initial direction is for everyone to stay in their rooms. The premise being that:

a) The rooms should be a safe environmentt for a minimum of two hours and thus a safe place to stay with no risk of having to travel through potentially dangerous areas.
b) People travelling means opening up fire doors and stairwells thus aiding the fires ability to spread.

Then after qualified help has arrived and the situation assessed they can instigate an evacuation of areas (if required) where doing so will have no effect on the spread of the fire (those below the fire floor) and arrange the safest way of evacuating any danger areas (again if required), depending on the location of the fire and the buildings layout.

The idea of all the fire doors being to contain the fire and limit the amount of oxygen getting to the fire, and this being completely negated if people just evacuate with no form of control or direction.

Of course some places, with out such high standards of fire safety construction, the premises is "get the hell out of there as fast as possible". But if your being told for everyone to stay in your room I'm pretty sure the idea is to minimise the risk for all concerned as per the buildings fire plan.

Groo,
Of course if the alarm rings your out of there - Current standards (at least here in NYC) have eliminated the "Macy's tone" (aka alert tone) and you ONLY get an alarm on the fire floor, and one floor up - aka a full "active" alarm - you hear an alarm on your floor, you are IN the active fire zone - get the heck out!!!

On floors not "involved" you will get NO alarm, not even the alert tones

You hear an alarm - you GO - don't make the floor wardens and/or searchers look for you. Before you open any doors btw - check them with the back of your hand to see if they are hot - and almost all stairwell doors also have a window - check for smoke - there will always be at least 2 stairways off of each floor - if one is blocked, try the other

Life Safety is obviously the first priority in any fire situation. An orderly evacuation reduces the risk of loss of life or injury. Rated fire doors are just that, rated to provide protection from thermal/fire spread in accordance with their respective fire rating. Humans however are more likely killed or injured from smoke inhalation/toxic fumes/oxygen displacement, then being burned alive. Fire rated doors will provide some thermal protection and reduce the spread of fire, but depending upon the condition of the door seals/gaskets, may provide significantly less protection from those things (smoke inhalation/toxic fumes/oxygen displacement) that will likely kill you.

Most large structures with high occupancy risks are made from concrete, cinder block, brick, etc. The structure itself will likely not burn, but all of the wiring, carpets, furniture, paper, drapes, all pose significant smoke/toxic gas treats. Doors that are opened do increase the chance of fire/smoke spread, mainly if multiple doors are opened at the same time (think of cross ventilation). However, limiting the amount of oxygen available to a fire, will generally in and of itself not extinguish the fire. In fact the reduced heat will likely produce greater amounts of smoke/toxic gases, as incomplete combustion is more likely.

My personal belief is an orderly evacuation should remain the top priority; once you are out, you no longer present yourself as a potential victim requiring rescue.

Pete

I'm an Lt. with 15 years on the job. I have never had a ten minute repsponse time to anything,not in my second or even third due area. Not even on in service jobs (no lights or sirens).60-90 seconds for 911 to do their thing 3-4 for us to get there.

You folks can stay when the bell goes off,I'm out of there!

As far as auto alarms,even those that go off a lot,well I've had fires in those too. You respond as if its real EVERYTIME.You go lights and sirens you hop off the load with air pack on grab a tool and the hotel roll thats your job.

Come on thirdpig, what about the 50th alarm in 6 months? And the previous 49 were false? Kudos to you and your dept. If you take all alarms seriously. When I worked in the fire service and now as a Paramedic, I have had partners, crews wo at 3 in the morning would take their time getting out of bed and geared up for that 50th alarm to same location.

Well the fines start after the 3rd time, by the time you hit 50 they'd be up close to 5k in fines. Not very many reach anywhere near that, in fact fire safety would be on them way before that point! All I can say is we respond the same way each time, if you got guys taking their time well the officer should do his job and correct that.

dude, 50 in 6 months... try over 200 in a year! We have a resort that we are called out for fire alarms at least twice every set (3 shifts)! We're cancled enroute more often than not... We don't get completly dressed out everytime, depends on where in the resort, when , and what kind of alarm is sounding.