crossbow for beginners

I like the idea of using a crowwbow for getting food: cheap, easy to use, re-usable ammo, etc.

Has anyone used one for target or huntriing practice? Do you have a reccomended model?

TRO

TeacheRo:

I would rather have a slingshot with a rest system that could accept an arrow.

Crossbows are a pain in the butt to haul around, and not conducive to safe snap shooting.

Bountyhunter

Check your local game laws before you practice on anything alive or even take it onto public property. Same goes for the slingshot, but you could carry the slingshot in places you could not hunt, do that with a crossbow and the LEOs will assume you are a poacher.

In the great state of Illinois, it looks like crossbow hunting is limited to those who are physically handicapped, and follows the same regulations/seasons as bow hunting.

Here is an interesting related web site:

http://www.worldcrossbow.com/FAQ.html

TeacherRo:

A long time ago before compound bows became so common place and preferred, I saw a program about a bow hunter that went to Africa. In one of the scenes they showed him shooting at a compressed thatch target. He was using a laminated recurve bow whose draw weight was like a "gazillion" pounds or so. His arrows went through the target like it wasn't even there. The local natives had bows taller than they were and arrows that approached the length of spears that just barely stuck into the target. They may not have been able to shoot elephants or other thick skinned game, but they still brought home the bacon.

In Wisconsin, you have to use a minimum draw weight bow of 30 lbs for hunting deer. Most people use more, and a 50 lb. draw seems to be the most popular hereabouts. The last time I looked, Wisconsin does not allow smaller than .30 caliber firearms for hunting deer and I do not know if they have minimum barrel lengths for handgun hunting.

My friends and I are old timers whose hunting dates before the popularity of tree stands and we grew up with recurve bows. I preferred ground hunting back when I was still able to move around in the woods as sitting in a tree stand is boring as hell and you don't learn much about animal movements.

I own a Sheakspear & Bear laminated recurves, a solid fiberglas backup, and a Bear compound bow. The Shakespear has sights on it as does the Bear compound. I prefer recurves in general, which, along with straight bows, and solid figerglas bows offer me one advantage I feel is lacking in a compound. "Snap shooting" a compound bow the way I learned to "snap shoot" a "regular" bow is asking for a dislocated shoulder. Compounds are easier to hold back for the long aimed shot, and crossbows are just short of being firearms, but given the choice of owning just one bow, it would be a laminated fiberglas recurve.

You don't need 150 lbs of draw weight to kill anything in North America if you have sharp, well designed arrows.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

That is correct, your doctor has to fill out a form (similar to the one for a handicapped parking permit), which is sent into the state, and you're issued a special crossbow permit. Without the permit, you're just another poacher.

Troy

Well said bounty,
the only thing I'd beg to differ on is the glass bow, my taste runs more toward laminated wood...holds up better with just a little T.L.C., and a whole lot prettier to look at.

Troy

BountytHunter,

That sounds like an old Fred Bear hunting film. I believe that I have seen that one, too. He was a remarkable archer.

The general prohibitions aginst crossbows stem from medieval times when they got catagorized with cannons and such. In reality, they aren't any more powerful than a conventional bow of the same draw weight, just easier for less-trained foot soliders to employ.

Wildcard163:

You will notice I said the solid fiberglas bow was a "backup" bow. The thought of breaking a bow during the hunt and either ending the hunt or having to buy something in a hurry was not a desired option. If my primary bow broke, the backup bow of solid figerglas was not beautiful or as smooth as my primary bow, but it was always ready and available just in case.

Back when I still wandered the woods in the winter, we constantly flexed our fiberglas laminated wood bows to reduce the chances of delamination and/or breakage from the cold. I still have that Shakespear that I used and the limbs are straight and the fiberglas laminated wood is still intact

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Why would anyone use a handgun for hunting in a non-emergency?

Sue

Same as any other means of hunting - for the fun & challenge, and to "make meat." I like a .22 pistol for small game because it's easier to carry with a good holster, especially getting through brush and fences. I've never tried big game only because I'm too cheap to spend the $$ required for a nice hand cannon.

Susan:

When they first started allowing large caliber handgun hunting (.22 pistols have been allowed forever for small game.), I thought it was stupid, unnecessary, and self-serving for the handgun manufacturers. Now that I have bad legs and find it hard to use both hands with a rifle, it makes more sense for me.

If I were able to find fellow hunters that would traverse the woods with me and my limitations, a handgun braced against a tree or hiking stick with one hand while the other hand is used to brace and keep me from falling makes a lot of sense.

One-armed individuals that want to hunt can do so easier with a long barreled handgun than they could with a rifle.

Bountyuhunter

Well forget large game because the handguns used effectively for that type of hunting are way too barrel heavy for one-hand use, not to mention recoil and added weght from the scope.

Some are. Some aren't. Some depends on the hunter. I don't use scopes on any of my pistols and they are all comfy to shoot one-handed. If I was shooting off a ladder in a Texas beanfield, I would agree - long range pistols are what you describe for heft and balance. There are other kinds of terrain / methods of hunting.

One handed assumes an off-hand shot, which I try like the dickens to avoid with rifle or pistol. Off a rest it doesn't take two hands. Handguns can be grossly more sensitive or grossly less sensitive than a rifle to POI shift off a rest - depends on pistol, ammo, and the specific point of contact on the rest - the range is the right place to find out the particulars.

Handgun hunting is high art and not for the novice - but in the large bores it doesn't require a canon, long barrel, or optics. Stalking skill, strong ethics, and superb marksmanship are what it takes.

Just my 2 cents.

For the challenge/sport of it. Along the same line of thought, why would anybody use a line and pole, when night line or net fishing is so much more productive/easy? It's all in what you want to get out of it.

Troy

Wow... deep, profound, and a lot more "saleable" than my standard "for the sport of it", and being that I'm catching up with you in the knee, hip, shoulder, and back health department, thanks bounty, that statement of yours makes a lot more room for pause against an anti-gunner.

Troy

You gotta be jokin'. My .45 long colt is legal and effective on large game, and a whole lot easier to use one handed than any long gun I own, or for that matter, can even think of.

Troy

Brian,

Some favorite handguns include: S & W m.27 with an 8 3/8" bbl. in .357 Mag. weighing about 56 oz. IIRC; a Ruger Super Redhawk with a 7 1/2" bbl. in .44 Mag. also weighing about 56 oz. IIRC; and a Ruger Blackhawk with a 7 1/2" in .45 Colt weighing about 41 oz. IIRC. All of these revolvers are eminently shootable one-handed. And if a lanky, middle-aged lawyer from a PC community like me can shoot them well, I shudder to think what a Texan could accomplish. {^;

All of those handguns can harvest game as large as deer within 50 yds. The .44 and .45 (with proper handloads) can easily kill larger or more difficult game such as black bear, boar and other large animals and at longer ranges.

I prefer to limit my handgun hunting to within 100 yds. Therefore I have no need for optical sights with increased complexity, weight, bulk, and vulnerability.


Susan,

I began hunting with a handgun a long time ago. I started with an S & W K-22 (6" bbl, 38 oz.) revolver on squirrels due to the increased challenge, convenience, and fun. I often carry a handgun when I am hunting big game with a rifle. Normally it will be a 4" bbl. revolver in one of calibers .22 LR, .32 H & R Mag., or .357 Mag. (loaded with .38 Spec ammo). Such handguns are very handy for harvesting such targets of opportunity as cottontails, jack rabbits, and squirrels. They can also be handy for eliminating poisonous snakes in/near camp (preferably with shot loads). In some areas it may also be legal to hunt some local game birds with a handgun (e.g., grouse, and possibly quail). As far as I know, it is not legal to hunt any Federally Regulated Wildfowl with a handgun. My use of a small to medium sized revolver to hunt is normally incidental to a hunt of big game with a rifle. When I am exclusively hunting with a handgun, it will normally be with a revolver having at least a 6" bbl. Handguns are also very useful for ranchers since an immediate need for a gun may present itself while primarily attending to agricultural endeavors.

In short, hunting with a handgun is eminently practical and a lot of fun. It's also a lot harder to do well than with a rifle. Handguns definitely have a place in hunting.

Have fun with your shooting,

John

Come on guys,

At 32 years of age I'm not an old man (unless you ask a teenager) and I'm sure I don't have as much experience as many of you but I still have 2.5 decades of shooting and hunting experiece. Not just a couple times a year but almost weekly trips to the range to fire off a couple 100 rounds per trip (admittedly though mostly from the bbl of a Sig229 these days <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). My point is that I do know a little about what I'm saying though I may not be saying it clearly and I am aware that there are plenty still with more experience than I.

Most people hunt large game for decades and are worthless with even a rifle at 100 yards with open sights so lets not give inexperienced hunters/shooters the impression that it is an easy and/or common task, especially with a barrel-heavy or short barrel (6" or less) revolvers. For 99% of the people out there it takes thousands and thousands of rounds worth of range time to aquire that skill with the highest quality of handguns and for some people , based on factors like size, stature, stamina, how they handle recoil, steadiness of their hands, etc, they may simply never gain the skill. To say the least, it is very difficult to acheive that level of skill and even with the skill you'll never shoot better than the way your gun shoots from a vise, so this only applies to high quality firearms to begin with.

Johnbaker:

Here in Wisconsin, we are not allowed to carry any handgun bigger than a .22 in the woods during small game, shotgun, black powder, and bow hunting season, large caliber handguns are allowed only during deer & bear gun hunting season and it has to conform to Wisconsin regulations for hunting handguns.

Bountyhunter

Brian:

I agree with you and would not feel comfortable shooting any large or small game with a handgun at distances longer than I would launch an arrow at said game unless I was really desperate or too injured to get closer.

I don't practice as much as you and never have, but I know my limitations and try to stay within them. I have shot a long barrelled Ruger .44 magnum at 100 yard targets from a bench with a sand bag rest and all the time in the world and I was unable to achieve a decent grouping and even missed the hundred yard target occasionally.

Bountyhunter

I dont always say things clearly and sometimes I talk a lot and say a litte but it sounds like Bounty understood my point. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My point in the last post was simply to make it clear to inexperienced shooters that taking down game at 100yards (or even 50yards) with a non-scoped handgun is something that takes (1) a high quality purpose driven firearm. (2) certain physical attributes and (3) tons and tons of practice. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bounty,

Thanks for making my day. Your description of Wisconsin's laws re hunting and handguns makes me glad I need only deal with handgun hunting laws in western states. Generally they're pretty good. Surprisingly even the PRK (Kalifornia) has fairly loose and sensible laws re hunting with handguns.


Brian,

I think we will need to agree to disagree on hunting with handguns. I think you are making it sound harder than it really is. As I previously indicated, hunting requires accurate handguns with sufficient power for the game. Carefully directed training and practice are required to be proficient in shooting the requisite handgun. However, these things are very much achievable by a motivated and diligent shooter.

Hunting is challenging. That is one reason why we enjoy it. Doing it with a handgun magnifies not only the challenge, but also the preparation, skill, and satisfaction entailed in doing it well. It is definitely worthwhile to develop the ability to do it well.

John

Is a pistol sized crossbow worth investigating? What draw weight?

Most of the pistol crossbows I have seen fall into either the 'junk' or the 'toy' categories.

This one is a little better quality and might be fun at the range. At $70 for this pistol model, you are 1/3 of the way to the price of a decent starter crossbow. I'd wait.

http://budk.com/Outdoor-Sports/150lb-Wood-Crossbow?

The high powered bow and according arrows may be less suited for the natives. An elephant isn´t easily carried home and cooked before the meat spoils or scavengers claim their part.


Wouldn´t that much draw weight put a question mark to the ability to reuse the arrows? A deer can´t offer substantial resistance to an arrow shot from such a bow. Retrieving the arrow would be a long search whether you hit or not - maybe with the exception of burying the arrow in a nearby tree.

It's not the draw weight, it's the kinetic energy the arrow possesses. An 80lb pistol crossbow with a 6 in stroke has about the same energy (~15 ft*lbs) as my Wifes 22 lb recurve (~13 ft*lbs). This is adaquate for small game, but underpowered for anything "biggerthen a breadbox". look up "Easton's Kinetic Energy Recommendation Chart" for more details.

Having lots and lots of experience with busted arrows, these are my observations on arrow survival.
1) Retrieving a lost arrow depends on large swaths of bright color. I build my arrows with an 8 in plain white wrap with 2 red hen feathers, and a white cock feather and nock. I've yet to lose one which is better then I can say for all my previous designs. Expect it to skitter along open ground for > 100 yards after a miss.
2) In the even of a handy tree; you're not getting it out without a saw. Hunting crossbows, which are most of what's currently produced, start at about 65 ft*lbs of energy. I need a prybar and a heavy rock to get my arrows out with only 32 ft*lbs of energy (target bow). Expect to leave the point behind a lot if you succed in trying to pull it out instead of cutting it out.
3) The most common mode of failure is when the arrow is shot into a hard object. The glue holding insert or point shatters, and the insert or point is rammed back into the shaft. A mild hit will just split the shaft right behind the point. A more severe hit (rocks or concrete) mushrooms an aluminum shaft or spinters a carbon shaft. Wood arrows just shatter. The strongest are carbons with the insert epoxied in place with the heavyweight stuff (not JB Weld).
4) The arrow/bolt strikes something at an angle. Aluminum shafts will buckle or bend right behind the insert. Carbon and wood will snap off.

In short, don't count on being able to reuse a crossbow bolt indefinitely. If you're looking far an "indestructible projectile". Get a carbon arrow, epoxy the insert in, glue the nock in (tends to go flying when shooting a hard object), and sleeve the front 2" of the shaft with a section of aluminum arrow. Also epoxied in place. Keep your kinetic energy down. I have two built like this and capped with large diameter rubber blunts and they've survived about 20 shots each into wood.