In your opinion did I faux pas?

This has been bothering me for a while and I would really appreciate your opinion. This is a little off subject but I can’t think of a better forum to ask the question.

About five months ago I flew from Chicago to Seattle to go on a 4 day hiking trip in the Cascade Mountains with my Sister, Father and another friend from Chicago. Of all of us I have the most back country experience. I don’t usually carry a pistol when I am hiking but it was fall and we were going into bear country.

I had borrowed a .45 from my brother-in-law to put the less experienced in the group at ease regarding “dangerous” wildlife. I didn’t think that for a moment I would ever use the pistol.

I will try and describe the situation as neutrally as possible:

We were about 9 miles into the back country. We had a beautiful view of Mt. Rainer and were starting to make camp next to a mountain lake just before dusk. After we had our tents up I broke out the water filter and took my sister to the lake to procure water for supper. It was dark enough at this point we were wearing headlamps (me: led with 3 AAA batteries if you are interested) I was doing the pumping (used a Katadyn mini. Don’t bother in the back country. It clogs frequently. I returned it and upgraded.) and my sister was holding the water bottles. The next thing I knew she dropped the bottles she was holding and took off at a dead run. She made about 40 yards in the time it took me to look up. All I could hear was the echo of her screaming “BEAR!”. Well what would you do. The pepper spray and .45 were both about 60 yards away in camp. I dropped everything and almost passed her on the way back to camp. Mind you I didn’t hear or see anything. I don’t know if it was the adrenalin or just the fact that I am very use to noises in the woods but I couldn’t make out where this “bear” was. As I am halfway back to camp my friend from Chicago and father are yelling at the top of there lungs. Apparently they heard or saw it as well. As I fell back into camp I immediately chambered a shell, pointed the .45 in the air and squeezed….well I guess more like feverishly jerked a round off into the air.

I have been shooting for many years and I can tell you when your adrenalin is that high you don’t even hear the bang. Anyway as soon as I fired we heard this EXACT phrase. “Hey quit shooting in the air” Now here is the catch. If this guy could see me well enough to know I was shooting in the air why didn’t he announce himself as to coming into camp. The sound was from this man and his buddies on horses coming through the woods. They had to have intentionally gotten off the trail before getting to our camp. When we called them in they were very cautious and informed us that they were with the forest service. They left immediately.

Now here are the questions. 1. Do you think I overreacted? 2. What would you have done? 3. With your limited knowledge, if they really were with the forest service why didn’t they announce themselves and after I fired a gun why didn’t I get a lecture?

Thanks for your opinion. Cameron

Oooh, sounds like you had quite the bit of adventure there. The events at the end really raise my eyebrows. You're right, if they were forest service, why didn't they lecture you on the use of your gun? They may have been merely Service volunteers who were checking around to make sure the trails/park is ship-shape (we have people like that out here), and were a bit intimidated by your gun demonstration and not trained to lecture you. But of course, with my natural suspicions, they could've also been thugs (on horseback?) who were going to rob you, faked the "Forest Service" titles and aborted when they realized you had a gun.

My questions are, becuase I have no experience in the matter, what made your family think there were bears involved?

Christina,

I was in a strange way thinking the "thug" thing as well. But how strange I have never really heard of that sort of thing in the woods before.

As far as the bear thing. To a greenhorn any sound in the woods after dark is an 1100 pound man eating bear. The situation just got the better of me having family involved.

Thanks

Cameron

Cameron2trade:

You made 2 really big mistakes that jump out at me.

1) You borrowed someone else's gun and did not familiarize yourself with it.

2) You did not identify a danger or target before shooting into the air.

I don't know the rules of the area you were in, but if it was a National Park with strict rules regarding firearms carry, you should have been relieved of the pistol by the "park rangers?"

Bountyhunter

Bountyhunter,

Thanks for the input. I was familiar with the pistol.

Your second point is taken. In retrospect I wish I had not fired until I identified some type of threat.

For the area I was in it was perfectly legal for me to carry.

Thanks for the input.

Cameron

Lets look at this without getting into a morality play or legal trial. Your party seemed to have had a 'mental template' of bears behind every tree, and pretty loose definitions of 'bearness.' You say you've shot for years, but at what? Paper targets are a lot different than Cape Buffalo. Your sister panicked and you did too. This is natural, part of our reptilian brain that kicks in when our higher functions don't have time to sort things out. Now to the people on horses. I don't know if they were Forest Service, but they were no horsemen. Hailing a camp is a time honoured tradition with very serious reasons and benefits. To approach a camp with superior vision and not give a holler is asking for trouble. Ask any policeman what the most dangerous call is or a Coast Guardsman who are the scariest people on the water. They blew it, whoever they were. I'd read up on bears, keep the firearm or repellant on hand 24/7 and remember the mantra " keep your finger off the trigger until your eye is on the target." Somehow I wonder if a bear wasn't up the trail having a laugh at you all <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

1. "Do you think I overreacted?"

No. You were there. I was not.

That being said, it's never a good idea to fire in the air. What goes up MUST come down. Much better to fire into the ground.

2. "What would you have done?"

Honestly, if I had left my pistol and pepper spray back at camp, I probably would have run like an . But then, I can always use more excercise.

3. "With your limited knowledge, if they really were with the forest service why didn’t they announce themselves and after I fired a gun why didn’t I get a lecture?"

Well, if somebody had approached my camp silently, and I had just fired off my gun in the air to scare off a bear I hadn't actually seen, and he had the gall to tell me: “Hey quit shooting in the air”, then I would be seriously conflicted. I guess if there was really a bear there then I would tell him to . But if I had any doubts I would probably hold my tongue.

But I certaintly wouldn't take his word for it that he was with "the forest service".

Regards, Vince

I, too, have always been very leery of bears. I keep a very watchful eye for any signs of their presence when I'm in the woods. I also keep my pistol strapped to my hip. I run across one every now and again and it always raises the hair on the back of my neck. But, as all those who are in the know will tell you, DON'T RUN. That, apparently, is the worst thing you can do. Face the bear, get as big as you can, make lots of noise and back slowly away. I like to throw rocks, too. Of course, all this requires you first make eye contact with the bear. They will always run away unless there are cubs nearby or a food cache or the bear is already wounded and sick in the head. Should you be attacked, as the advice goes, play dead and the bear will tire of you fairly quickly and leave. Some mice apparently know this trick, too, or maybe my cat's just a stupid cat. I hope this didn't sound like a lecture, but you sounded like you didn't have much bear knowledge. No need, no reason.

As for the riders, Christina mentioned two distinct possibilities - volunteers or thugs. Either way, you obviously impressed them to the point they didn't want to hang around. Sometimes lucky wins out over smart.

My first thought was the same as CK's: EVERYONE who does back-country riding knows to hail any camp from a distance. EVERYONE. It's like knocking on someone's front door -- you don't just walk in.

I shivered when you said your sister ran, and then you did. Bear bait. You can't outrun a bear.

But I certainly did give a sigh of relief when you said you fired into the air. Granted, that wasn't the best thing you could have done, but at least you DIDN'T FIRE INTO THE BUSHES!

Sue

Just a few questions:
Was anyone sure they saw a bear, or was it merely a dark large dark object rustling around in the murk of the evening? Could the riders have been mistaken for a bear? Is it likely or natural for a bear to be on the move at that time of day?
Lastly is it common to get mugged on the trail? It all sound a bit paranoid to me. The kind of event that rarely happens, but when it does it scares people into being overly cautious - a bit like stories of man-eating bears.
Thankfully I have no experience of bears or outlaws, but your reaction seems perfectly natural to me.

IMTUO (= in my totally unqualified opinion ...)
and FMFAC (= from my favorite arm chair ... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

- if you bring a gun, keep it with you, for obvious security reasons ; if you need it, you don't want it a hundred meters away .... and having it on you, is the best way to "control" it and to insure nobody else (kid, untrained adult etc..) will eventually "play" with it ;
- as Chris said, don't put your finger on the trigger until the pistol is trained on a really identified target.

Disclaimer : I haven't the least experience with bears (except for having seen some on TV and in a Zoo ..... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Second disclaimer : my firearms experience is limited to paper target shooting (making holes from .17 up to .45 inches)

And I guess if I had been in your shoes at that time, I may well have done the same things... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It´s always easier to be wise in the hindsight. In addition to what the others stated there´s one point that really stood out to me. It may sound a bit harsh but I don´t intend to offend you or pass moral judgement. You borrowed a gun and had a vague idea of using it in the case of a bear encounter. By not thinking more thoroughly about it you conditioned yourself to careless fire in the case of a panic. And you conditoned the whole party to assume that unidentified contacts would be bears. That kind of conditioning is much too powerfull to neglect it. It would be much better to set up a plan and brief the whole party about it. This would increase the probability of proper reactions and it might even decrease the probality of a panic.
Thanks for sharing this experience and giving an oppor
tunity to learn.

There are a lot of issues here, but I would like to address a few comments.

Shooting in the air vs. shooting into the ground-Neither is safe. What goes up does come down, but you were in a sparsely populated area it sounds like. If you shoot into the ground you stand a decent chance of a riccochet. Even with a heavy, relatively slow .45 round. I think in the situation, up in the air was a better choice especially if light conditions were bad.

Do people get mugged (or worse) in the wilderness? Hell yes. Maybe it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. Most people that love the outdoors are good people, but some people like the woods because there is no law enforcement nearby. At one point I had somebody tip-toe around my tent in the middle of the night. I view that about the same way I do someone trying to break into my house. Why was he there so late, with no light, unanounced? It was a man because we found tracks. There was no good reason for someone to behave like that.

I met a paraplegic guy oen time that was acquainted with a friend of mine. Nice guy and we struck up a conversation. He told me he was in the wheel chair because he had been camping in the Red River Gorge (in KY where I am from) with a bunch of friends. Some person or people came into their cam in the middle of the night and shot everyone in his party with a shotgun while they slept in their bags. He lost his brother and best friend, and he was the only survivor. Some other backpackers found him in the morning which is the only reason he probably survived. Nothing was stolen, and he says they had had no run in with any people during their trip.

It is unlikely that you will be a victim of crime in the wilderness, but more likely than being attacked by a bear. Just my belief, but I am sure somebody has compiled stats on that sort of thing.

Did you ever see proof that the guys on horseback were Forest Service? Anything? I would be highly suspicious of anyone riding quietly into my camp, especially in low light.

You may have over reacted a little. I wouldn't worry about it. No one was hurt. You learned a lesson or two, and discharging a weapon may have possibly saved your sister from a fate worse than death.

Oh yeah, don't run from bears. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This thread has brought up some good discussion points though IMO, and that is a very good thing.

I know the last post was poorly written but I'm all whacked out on cold medicine and I have the flu. So sue me. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I rather doubt anyone with criminal intent would use horses even in today's rural environments.The things are to expensive and require a level of care few career criminals would care to exert. Even that trash trapper, ersatz cowboy Claude Dallas ditched his stock after murdering two game Wardens. Horsepeople do tend to get a bit arrogant with livestock right away and the superior atitude a horse renders to people afoot. It's not unlike sailboats who insist on tacking across big freighter's bows because " sail powered vessels have right away." The simple fact is our wilderness has become an extension of the uncivilized behavior many of us seek to escape from. I prefer to emulate my literary hero Jack Burns, rumoured to be dead, polite if encountered, hard to find and best left alone anyway <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Never apologise, never explain"- British foriegn Office <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cameron2trade:

I don't know you or how often you utilize and/or practice with the pistol you borrowed. I have used and owned a variety of weapons, and from an academic standpoint know about quite a few weapons.

The weapons I consider myself "familiar" with are the ones I own, (I have not "borrowed" or used anyone elses firearm in more than 35 years.) use, practice with, and clean on a regular basis. From my point of view, picking up a firearm that is similar to one I own or have handled before and do not access on a regular basis does not constitute "familiarity" with it. Two firearms coming off the same assembly line with a 1 digit difference in serial numbers can be vastly different in their response to being used by different people. The only thing in my book that qualifies me to handle "strange" firearms is the same consistent safety procedures. Trigger response, recoil, point of aim, point of impact, handling different types of ammo, and other factors make the same model firearm different from one you handle, use, and clean on a regular basis.

Being licensed in the State of Wisconsin to ride motorcycles, I have owned several motorcycles, and scooters in my lifetime, and I am currently looking to buy 1 or 2 scooters of 50cc 2-stroke or 150cc up to 400cc 4-stroke. One of the things I read early on in my bike riding days was that most motorcycle and scooter accidents involve new owners and borrowed bikes. Owning a particular motocycle or scooter and using another one of the same size and model does not garuantee the same behavioral aspects of the one you own. I don't know if any such studies have been made in the firearms arena, but I am willing to bet that missed, errant, and accidental shots have probably been more likely with borrowed firearms.

Bountyhunter

Chris, you may be right. But you are operating under the assumption that criminals/bad people don't have money. That is a bad assumption. Economic background does not change your heart and soul.

"I rather doubt anyone with criminal intent would use horses even in today's rural environments."

You're assuming that the horses were theirs. A woman I used to be acquainted with went with a group of other women on a multi-day trail ride. Three men came to their camp and acted obnoxious. That didn't bother the women as much as the way they treated the horses. It wasn't until the men noticed that one of the women was wearing a holstered gun that they decided to go on their way.

A few hours later, the posse showed up, looking for three stolen horses.

Stupid people are stupid people no matter what their environment.

Sue

lookat the upside your here to wirte about it

IMHO you did make a faux pas. My guess is that you already know that or it wouldn't still be on your mind. That said I am happy that your family is safe, but shooting in the air is not the best action to take in that situation. Having your weapon ready was warranted in the situation. Noone will ever know what the men on horses truely intended, but I think it was a very good thing that you were prepared to defend your family. Unfortunately bad people can be everywhere we go. I'm happy everything worked out in the end and no harm was done.

Hello Cameron and welcome to the forum.

Given your situation, you did what you thought best and everyone survived without injury and that is the goal here. Another goal is benefiting from the experiences of others.

You have asked for feedback, so as a fellow outdoor enthusiast, I will oblige you with my opinion. Please note that this is not intended to enflame or embarrass anyone. It?s strictly an observation. So with that disclaimer, I?ll continue.

To answer your question, ?Do you think I over-reacted?? - simply stated, yes.
? Your sister saw or thought she saw a bear ? then panicked and ran away screaming, ?bear!?
? Having seen or heard nothing, you panicked, ran for your weapon and fired it into the air.

Our discussions generally revolve around the principles of knowledge, gear and mindset in order to be better prepared.

Based on your story, it seems you had sufficient gear, but the knowledge and mindset categories may have needed a little fortifying. (But isn?t that why we are all here <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Going into a place where you are likely to encounter wildlife, you should familiarize yourself with what to do in case you stumble across one of Mother Nature?s beasts. With many animals, fleeing is not the best alternative. You can?t out-run them and if they?re not interested in devouring you or simply scaring you away, catching you can become an intriguing challenge to them.

The S.T.O.P. acronym (Stop, Think, Observe, Plan) is also spoken here. It applies in several of your situations:

1. The bear
? Stay calm
? Is there really a bear
? If so, is it merely watching you, is it walking in the distance, is it protecting its ?turf? or is it in attack mode

2. The .45 pistol
? Stay calm
? Where is it (If legal to carry, why is it not secured on my person)
? Is a bear really attacking me
? Can I acquire an actual target in the low lighting*
? If I shoot a bear will I kill it, injure it, scare it or tick it off *
(*Should have been determined before the trip began)

3. The men on horseback
? Stay calm
? What are they doing
? Are they a threat

As far as the men on horseback, I can?t say who they were or why they did or didn?t do what they did. I probably wouldn?t have wanted to get too close to a group screaming, ?bear? and blasting rounds into the air either ? especially if I was on a horse that could?ve been mistaken for a bear - after dusk. They could have indeed been thugs, but I have a hard time believing that they were. They were in the woods on horses (not exactly stealthy) at night, 9 miles into the backcountry. Now unless you were mining gold in them there hills, it would probably be easier and more lucrative for these horsemen to knock off a local convenience store if they were thugs. Plus you had the .45 there as insurance.

In summation:
? Stay calm
? Identify the potential threat
? Assess the potential threat
? React accordingly

Remember:
? The weapon should be secured at all times
? Fire the weapon only at an intended target
? The weapon is not a ?noise maker?
? Falling projectiles and ricochets kill

That?s my observation FWIW <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Stay safe and thanks for sharing your story.

I'm not so sure this is a great idea.



I thought since bears have poor eyesight they will "bluff" attack to see what you are about.

-john

Like many others have pointed out. We were not there, you were, so who is to judge. I will say a couple of things.

1. A weapon is no good to you if you don't have it with you.

2. The people on horses were not Forestry Service. If you read the rules at the websites, Guns are ILLEGAL in National Parks, and LEGAL in National Forests (within applicable local and state laws). If you were in a National Park they would have come into camp, talked with you and let you know. They would have show you ID and if they were afraid of "the crazy guy with the gun" they would have marked your location and had you followed / tracked. So they could deal with you later.

"Shooting in the air vs. shooting into the ground-Neither is safe. What goes up does come down, but you were in a sparsely populated area it sounds like. If you shoot into the ground you stand a decent chance of a riccochet. Even with a heavy, relatively slow .45 round. I think in the situation, up in the air was a better choice especially if light conditions were bad."

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I am not a big fan of warning shots of any sort. Nevertheless, if you are going to fire one, or fire a gun at all for that matter, you MUST be sure of your backstop. Yes, ricochets are a threat but I would still prefer to fire into the ground over up in the air.

I do agree that neither one constitutes safe gunhandling.


Regards, Vince

I don't understand the shooting thing at all, whether in the air or the ground. Is the notion that a loud noise would make a bear go away? That never would have occurred to me. So I would say yes, it's a faux pas as far as I can tell. Unless someone knowledgeable says otherwise I'm going to believe that shooting for the sake of making noise is an ineffective plan even if there's a real bear, especially a bear that's not actually attacking. The noise might even provoke the bear. And even emptying a clip into a large attacking bear might not stop it.

Odds are that 45cal rounds are going to bounce right off of a large Bear. That's not to say they won't scare him but don't expect them to have any significant stopping power at all whatsoever. I'm not going to judge your actions from the comfort of my perverbial armchair but I will tell you that IMHO positive target identification is a must before discharging a firearm. Ofcourse that's not to say you did not positively identify the sky before discharging yours. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As far as the people that approached your camp on horseback. I would have to say that I would not believe even for a split second that (based on your story) they were in any way associated with the forest service. I would fully expect them to either be in clearly marked uniforms or present identification if that was the case and if they were in my camp for more than a minute I'd probably even ask them (politely) to present ID or move along.

Paulr:

There are people on this forum more technically knowledgeble about ballistics than I am, but here is my take on guns in the woods.

If I ever went anywhere where bears, cougars, mountain lions, wolves, or bobcats were a concern, I would not depend on a .45 ACP as a camp security sidearm. Those who have seen my previous posts know I am a huge fan of the .45 auto, but not against the aforementioned animals. I would prefer a .38 Super in semi-auto format because of the drop-away magazine feature, or a .357 magnum with at least a 4 inch barrel with speed loaders. The reason for the .357 magnum over a .44 magnum which would be a superior cartridge is the .357's lower recoil for multiple shot target aquisition and a better chance at multiple hits. The head would be my target of choice so that if the shot does not kill, it will still hurt, hopefully enough to change the animals mind about continueing the attack. I know some of you will contend that hurting a large hunting animal will make it angry and more vicious, but I personally believe that is primarily a human response commonly known as "vengence". I would be inclined to believe animal suffering pain would tend to back away from that pain. One of the main reasons I believe that has to do with a story I read about a man that was attacked and knocked off his horse by a mountain lion and manged to fight it off with a tree branch. Now a tree branch to the head of a mountain lion can not compare in pain to even a lowly .22 to the head for the infliction of pain. After that incident, he went riding with a sidearm which I believe was a .357 magnum strapped to his belt, and I believe he also attached a lanyard to the sidearm.

In the woods of Wisconsin, where the biggest animals are black bear, deer, and an occasional wolf, I feel quite comfortable with a sling shot and a .22 caliber semi-auto rifle as a camp gun. The thing I fear most in the Wisconsin woods would be a pack of feral dogs, and for that, I would feel safe with my Ruger .22 caliber semi-auto pistol.

The best advice has always been to just stay away from dangerous animals unless you are hunting them, and then you should have what you really need to put the animal down quickly and humanely.

Bountyhunter

>>>>I shivered when you said your sister ran, and then you did. Bear bait. You can't outrun a bear<<<<

He didn't have to outrun the bear, only his sister <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think we disagree at all, not really. Neither option is good. I just think in the described situation he stood a better chance of hitting someone by shooting at the ground. Especially since it doesn't sound like a lot of consideration went into the shot to begin with.

I grew up in a rural state, and most of my shooting practice has been done on people's farms, not at a range. I have witnessed some freakish, pucker you up riccochets that have made me triple careful about where I would post a target. Falling projectiles do hit people, but in the described situation it sounds like they were miles away from any kind of substantial population density.

Cam, welcome to the board. IMHO you did goof by firing into the air. I understand your adrenaline was pumping. No one was hurt, don't let it happen again. Next time could end up with someone hurt or dead.
As for the "other guys" they could well have been Forest Service employees. I was a seasonal worker on Helena NF in Townsend, MT and the only uniforms we ever wore were our yellow and green nomex when we were on a fire. The rest of the time it was whatever was comfortable. Trails are optional. We took many shortcuts cross country at the end of a shift. As for the guys appearing nervous - well I would be too. You've got a group of folks in the dark, yelling and shooting at who knows what. Not a scenario to walk/ride into without keeping your guard up at least a little.

That's my $0.02
Ed

Did you not carry any ID to identify yourself as a forest service employee with the authority to police campers? Seems awefully careless and hard to believe that the forest service would have people riding around with that type of authority with no ID.

Cameron,

Heck, I've been trying to stay out of this thread... anyway, the very most important thing is that no one was hurt and no damage was done.

Out of curiosity - did anyone in your party happen to smell the bear at any point or was the bear downwind from everyone? They have a pretty distinct odor.

IMHO if one carries a means of self protection into the wilderness, keep it on you at all times. Really really at all times. Doesn't matter if it's pepper spray, a shotgun, a walking stick, or a blaster. It's useless if it's not on you or at arm's reach (literally). That is a habit and it takes discipline to develop.

As for the rest of your questions (and what others have posed) <shrug> I wasn't there. I would not have deliberately loosed a round off as you reported doing and have refrained from doing so in somewhat similar circumstances, but I am not fearful of shooting when it's required - but AT the identified threat to kill it, not to make a noise. That's me and that's my advice.

FWIW, a 45ACP is perfectly capable of killing a bear, as has been amply demonstrated many times. A 45ACP is unlikely in a do-or-die close range situation to prevent the bear from maiming and/or killing one or more folks before the bear expires. Ditto for a 357 magnum or any lesser handgun calibers, and I spent quite a bit of time discussing a horrible incident with a man who was severely maimed while up a tree by a smallish black bear that he had whacked 5 times with a NAA 454 Magnum pistol AFTER he put a broadhead thru the bear and thought it had expired... I've personally taken two grizzlies in Alaska and have seen several other (black) bears taken - all with rifles. If I carry a pistol in bear country, it's either a 44 Redhawk or a well-used and familiar very-heavily-loaded 45 Colt Blackhawk and they comfort me only a little when thinking about in-my-face bears. An inexpensive single shot 12 gauge doesn't weigh that much more and would be a lot more effective if ever needed - I say that as food-for-thought.

OTOH, a 45ACP is fine for protection against two-legged monsters - see above caveats.

As for the horsemen - who knows? The arrogant, thoughtless, and abusive behavior of so many "local" western horsemen on public lands that I have witnessed over the years has whipped me into such a froth that I refuse to hunt several western states any longer. I've met some really decent and considerate folks perched astraddle a horse, but that sort of person seems to be a vanishing breed. I tend to agree, however, that the folks who rode into your camp probably had no bad intentions, whomever they really were.

Again, no one was injured and you're braver than I am - you posed the questions here...

Regards,

Tom

LOL... I think we can all agree on that one. Kudos to you for your bravery. It takes guts to post a question like that in this forum. Especially for a newcomer. Welcome to the forum! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On playing dead...

Last time I was in New Mexico (Philmont... ) we were told that Black Bears were opportunistic feeders. The advise we were given was to fight back if attacked.

Black bears are They are very gullible, so if you come at them as if you think you can beat them in a fair fight, they run away. Make noise, stand tall, wave your arms, and throw things at them.

Don't try this if there are cubs around, or with a Grizzly.

Big critter, big iron! I prefer to let the bears know I am around and not tempt them with any food items or smells. If I needed a gun, a 12ga with slug loads would be the choice. Probably a 18" riot type without a stock. Just my 2cents. Cheers!

Actually, I've found the opposite to be true sometimes- we were canoeing in the BWCA of MN, (black bear country), and we heard people noises from the other campsites at various times. Typical noisy campers, and they don't know how much noise carries on a lake. Starting at around dusk, we heard bear-scaring noises from each campsite consecutively. But because my wife and I are very neat and quiet campers, the bear never stopped at our campsite on his rounds.

But this doesn't always work, of course. I was on one canoe trip where we had 3 bear encounters, 2 at the same campsite! And they didn't come raiding at the typical time. They've learned that in the middle of the night, the food pack is in the trees where they can't get it. But there's a window just after mealtime, when the people are down by the water cleaning up, and the pack is unguarded. All 3 times, that's when the bear came. And we caught him, and scared him off.

First let me say thank you for all of the responses.


So that you know your advice and opinions have not gone without serious consideration and appreciation let me tell you what I have learned.

1) Do not discharge a firearm without knowing exactly what it is that you are shooting at…EVER!

2) Always keep your protection with you. This prevents both not having it in a real time of need and helps eliminates the potential for accidents.

3) Never run from bears, or is that always run from bears or is that make yourself look bigger than the bear or is that play dead or was it beat it over the head with a stick or was that Make a lot of noise ..er..no be completely quiet …..Oh heck next time if in fact it really is a bear I think I will just invite him into camp for a hotdog and a sip from my Boda Bag.

4) Don’t borrow guns. If you don’t know the gun it probably won’t do you much good.

5) Shooting in the air vs. ground. I’m not even going to touch that one.

6) I’m still up in the air about horsemen. I seem to always run into them on the trails out west and in S. Indiana where I do a lot of hiking and honestly I always have a great time meeting other hikers but don’t really enjoy equestrians.

7) Look and listen. Don’t jump to conclusions that lead to adrenal decisions. Essentially keep a cool head as much as humanly possible in a given situation. (Not bad advice for all aspects of life.)

8) Be a better teacher. Don’t take people into the woods without thoroughly appraising them of the “real” dangers and the reality of those dangers. I honestly believe that the whole situation would have never happened if I had dispelled the fears they were having about “BEARS” before we set a single foot on the trail.


Finally I think the consensus is that yes in fact I did Faux Pas. However and this is the reason I posted this question in this forum. I wasn’t made to feel like a jerk and for that thank you. I learned a lot from the experience and everyone that was kind enough to share there opinion. You can bet that I will handle any similar situation in a much more informed manor.

Sincerely,
Cameron