hacksaw blade and the TSA.....

Anybody know for sure if a 3" piece of hacksaw blade is TSA approved or not? I realize a lot of it is up to the individual screeners but anybody know the official line?

Thanks, Vince

Probably not. Just one of the things they don't like.

Not that I've done it, but lay it on a piece of masking tape then fold it over, completely covering it. That way it can't poke its way out of the package. It will show up on an Xray but should pass through a hand search.

Don't get mad at me if you do get caught though.

Just to make things clear: the only blades allowed are here:

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf

Any other blades are prohibited on board. A tape covered blade is easily confirms the hidden weapon badge and leans toward a more complete search (delays included) and possibly legal prosecution.

(For my disclaimer, I'm not a fan of the present regulations, but don't want anyone to spend his/her holiday season in a terminal, or even worst places.)

Thanks for the link. That's exactly what I needed.

Vince

I realize that I may be confusing the TSA with any sort of logic, but anybody have a clue why pliers are not allowed in carry-on???????

TSA doesn't allow any tools. Probably because they don't want somebody dismantling the aircraft in any way, especially the locked door to the cockpit.

Robert

I was once told (by a ticket agent) that I would not be allowed to take a 50-foot rope on board an aircraft. What would a terrorist do with a 50-foot rope? Cut it into 5-foot lengths (with a knife I don't have) and strangle 10 passengers without anyone noticing?

The problem is that designing security into a system, like a lot of other things, is something that should be done by trained experts but is often done by people who think it looks easy, but don't really know what they're doing.

In the case of the TSA, it seems obvious to me (as a trained expert - I hold a CISSP from the ISC2 organisation, and a CPP from the American Society of Industrial Security, among other designations) that nobody did a formal Threat Risk Assessment to figure out the most cost-effective (or even an effective) way of securing the system. They simply put together a committee to list all the things that they thought might possibly be used as weapons, and ignored far more effective (and less costly) security solutions. Okay they also put Air Marshals on selected flights (which I consider an incredible waste of money) and they may have done some other things we're unaware of, but in general I find the whole TSA security model amateurish and completely ineffective. (The ad hoc security provided by the passengers is the only real security being provided on US and Canadian airlines, IMO.) Admittedly, I don't work for the airlines or the TSA and so I don't have the whole story, but I believe I could easily bypass the official security measures. In fact, I've already done so by accident - I took a Leatherman Juice on board an airplane because I forgot I had it in my raincoat pocket. Nobody stopped me, because nobody at security spotted it.

Pretty hard to pick a lock with a pair of pliers while the pilots are bouncing you off the ceiling. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would think locking picking tools would fall into the "tools" category and wouldn't be allowed either. I wasn't talking about picking the lock with a pair of pliers. How about dismantling the tray table in front of you, or removing something from the bathroom.

I don't agree with the TSA. I'm just trying to explain what I think their line of thought is.

Robert

Airport security is ridiculous and designed to placate scared PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. rather than protect us from terrorism. That said, I wouldn't mess with them because I hate the delays and drama airports love to heap upon anyone with a nail file these days. Check with someone working in the airport before you take something onboard. Its a shame but thats the way it is for the forseeable future.

forseeable future? i think forever would be more accurate. don't expect things to go back to the way they were pre 9-11... at least not in our lifetime.

Brian:

If you keep thinking like that, you will help create a facist country.

Don't be so afraid of the system that you refuse to fight for the America that should be.

Do you want to live forever? The bad guys can only kill you once.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

---------------------------------------------------------------
Do you want to live forever? The bad guys can only kill you once.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hehehaha... I like that one. That can be applied to a lot in life. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Many things will never be the same, but realistically, I think the knee jerk and assinine airport security will eventually tire of itself. I refuse to believe we now and forevermore live in a world where nailclipers are threatning to the skys.

I hope youre right but if asked to bet money on it, I'd keep my coins in my pocket.

Nic:

You must be very young or schools have not been allowed to teach everything anymore.

Income tax was supposed to be a "temporary thing".

Start voting the "PRO TSA" supporters out of office, and it will change, otherwise you will start getting arrested soon for having a pocket knife on the streets of America.

Bountyhunter

Dude your preaching to the chior, Im just saying in this particular instance (overly strict and unrealistic airport security) i think common sence will eventually win out. Not that it will because its a good idea, but just because the further the memory is in the past and the more tiresome the whole drama of the security check line gets people will just stop carring. Airport employees will sign a collective "meh..." sometime around 2010 and will make the assumption that a 52 year old guy with a wife and two kids on his arm probably isn't going to take out the plane with dollar store swiss army knife.

I totally agree that this american administration has taken advantage of a very real tradgady and a very real threat to just write themselves a blank cheque and erode all civil rights. Im not opposed at all to the war on terror, I just wish we targeted freakin terrorist instead of unrealated countries under a pretense of lies and your own public. Does anybody remember Osama bin Laden? Anyone remember the Saudies? ahhh, Im not gonna get into this, sorry, it just frustrates me a lot.

Funny,

The same people who complain about increased security are the same who would cry foul if another 911 came around because security hadn't increased. You can't have it both ways.


Is ariport security an inconvenience? Yes

Is slamming into office towers at 300MPH listening to "praise to allah" in your final moments an inconvenience? Yes

Have liberties been taken too far by the gvnmt? Yes

Are Memories short? Yes

Would I rather have a dollar store SAK taken away from a father of 2?
Yes

Are there other modes of transport for people who don't like their liberties of flying with knives taken away ? Y es

Should grandma's knittting needles be taken away? NO!

Do I feel safer on a plane knowing there are no blades? Yes

For what its worth

Flip

"I totally agree that this american administration has taken advantage of a very real tradgady and a very real threat to just write themselves a blank cheque and erode all civil rights."

Would you please explain to me exactly what civil rights you have had taken away by the Bush administration? Please be specific.

Vince

Vince, I've sent you a PM in response detailing some of the civil rights that have been damaged by this administration. Not wanting to hijack this forum with a bunch of political bickering unrelated to this forums purpose, if you want to reply, please send a PM.

As for what Flipper said, I get tired of people insinuating your somehow a traitor or crybabby when you point out foolishness. If you feel better that mothers and seniors are having their kitting needels confisicated at the security counter good for you. Im not going to bother trying to convince you that these steps are probably little more than the eye candy appearance of security. Domestic security lies with good international policy and strong but fair laws more than it does with making sure toothpicks are safely stowed in the aft compartment. Again though, if you want to talk politics I would be happy to if we do it with PMs rather than on the board proper.

Norad45:

You are starting to sound like a government or pro-Bush spinmiester.

All right, he took away my ability to carry a pocket knife on an airplane.

He made me guilty until proven innocent by taking away my ability to carry a pocket knife anywhere.

He made me a target of inept "security" people because if I get a dark tan with my Baltic features, I might be "one of them" that some ditty anal retentive "pc" type points out because I take pictures of interesting sights.

Bountyhunter

(P.S. Yeah, I know you weren't talking to me, but you government spinmiesters tend to scare off otherwise good people and I would hate to see you go unanswered.)

Flipper, Flipper, Flipper!:

The masses with like resources can always, ALWAYS overcome the individual.

The bad guys will always find a way to get what they want onboard and the ones that could have stopped them will have nothing.

You sound like one of those "give them what they want and they won't hurt us types" when you say you feel safer because there are no blades on board.

Since 9-11 there have been several instances where the passengers took matters into their own hands to contain a situation.

Based on your post, I'm sure you would never have been in such a group.

Bountyhunter

Nic:

You're all right!

I realize that Chris may shut this post down, but I had to deal with a government spinmiester on another forum who called himself "Paper Tiger", and part of their tactics are to shut you up publically.

Dam the "Personal Messages", full speed ahead.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

“Not wanting to hijack this forum with a bunch of political bickering unrelated to this forums purpose, if you want to reply, please send a PM.”

I’m sorry Nic, but the thread has already been hijacked. I asked a question about hacksaw blades and the TSA. You (and others) made the charge that the Bush administration has been eroding civil rights. I asked you to cite an example from your own personal experience. You replied with a lengthy PM that provided no such example. You see, I was interested in hearing how the Bush administration had managed to cross the border and steal your civil rights. I am somewhat relieved to hear that hasn’t happened after all.

I appreciate your concerns about American civil rights, but don’t forget that we have been doing a pretty good job guarding them for about 220+ years. There have been some bumps in the road, and some folks have had to wait much too long to get them. But I think you will find that when it comes to hanging on to TRUE civil rights (the first 10 Amendments to the Constituion), we are pretty tenacious.

I will not get into the contents of your PM; it is private after all. Suffice it to say that during an American election year one is apt to find all sorts of hooey splattered all over the internet, and if you believe about 1% of it you will likely be on safe ground.

However, one thing we can all be sure of: no matter who wins the election, I’m STILL not going to be able to carry a piece of hacksaw blade on a commercial flight.

Regards, Vince

"All right, he took away my ability to carry a pocket knife on an airplane."

I think that has been prohibited since the hijack craze of the early 1970's.

"He made me guilty until proven innocent by taking away my ability to carry a pocket knife anywhere."

Are you a felon? If so, the prohibition against carrying a weapon predates President Bush by a considerable margin. I'm not quite sure what else you could be referring to. I'm sure many of us still can and do legally carry pocket knives almost everywhere. I know I do.

Your charge that I am a government "spinmeister" is, frankly, pretty silly. If I am then I have yet to get my check <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Vince

I live in Canada Vince, I am not concerned with the Bush admin taking away my rights, im concerned about them taking away YOUR rights and providing the wrong example for the world. America has always led the world in freedom and liberty, when you start to lose your way, the rest of the world will follow. I provided a littenay of examples of how the Bush admin has really just acted shamefully and have used the innocent deaths of 9/11 to steer policy as far right as possible.

I know what your saying and Im sure you believe it and have no intention of letting them take your rights, but saddly they are. I should make it clear that they are not "planning" to take away right in the future sometime, they have activily started and have already eroded some of the most sacred rights we should all hold dear. You mentioned the key amendmennt rights and those are excellent examples. Just the Patriot act alone puts your first, fourth and fifth amendment rights in danger. The first amendment protects your freedom of expression and free speech and is nesecary in a safe and free democracy. However under the patriot act, expressions and statements can be used as probable cause or cause for suspicion. And Im not talking about dumb people who say things like "ima gonna kill the president!," that is a threat and is cause for alarm. What the patriot act does is make it so particpating in protests, or critizing the governmen, basically saying things they dont like can theoretically be used a grounds for searches and questioning. If people have to fear that what they will say will land them in jail or even just get put them in a position where they will be intimidated by police, then your freedom of speech and expression is in jepordy.

The fourth amendment protects the sancity of your home and your rights to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures. Basically it means the police and other agencies need a warrant to search your home, you and anywhere else and to get a warrent they must demonstrate probable cause that you have commited a crime. With the patriot act, government agencies no longer need a warrent to search your home and all your records so long as they claim it pertains to a foreinge terrorist investigation. However, there is no oversight to ensure that these searches and seizures have anything to do with terrorism. In fact, they don't even have to insinuate that you are the terrorist, they just have to say that it came up in the course of a terrorist investigation. They don't even have to tell you that they have performed a search or have siezed records on you anymore. So now were up to a place where expressing your opinon can land you in the hotseat and the governement can go into your home and search through your private belongings and can even seize all your bank, libary, electronic ect records without even making you aware that they are investigating you. I am all for the war on terror and I believe that the laws regarding police searches need to reexamined but this is going too far. A place where anti-government statements lead to midnight searches and covert survalicance is not America.

The fifth amendment guarantees that no one will be held or imprissoned without due and fair leagal proceedings. This is the key that makes up a democracy, we think before we chuck people in a hole. The Pat act though lets them hold suspected terrorists or those that may come up in the course of a terrorist investigation indefniately and without due process or defenses or anything else that makes up America. Am I saying "boo hooo those poor terrorist"? Hell no! What I am saying is that with their board definintion of what they consider a terrorist, the fact that you don't even have to be a terrorist, you just came up in an investigation you can be held just the same, and the criminal lack of oversight and accountability, your giving them a blank cheque to abuse power. You give anyone that much power with so little accountability and they will abuse it. I realize we live in a different world now, and I have no sympathy to terrorist assholes that would harm the innocent, but we can't just say to the government "here, do whatever you like" because that is not America and that is not the America to lead the world.

We need to protect ourselves from terrorism and we need to reexamine our legal system, but that does not mean we have to chuck all the rights and freedoms that make up America in the dustbin. Instead of focusing on real terrorists and real threats, the Bush admin has waged a war on its own people under the guise of security and it sickens me. Be really careful when someone asks you to trade in your liberty for security, you probably won't end up with either.

“What the patriot act does is make it so particpating in protests, or critizing the governmen, basically saying things they dont like can theoretically be used a grounds for searches and questioning.”

So am I to assume that all those protesters in NYC this week have all been searched, detained, and questioned under the Patriot Act? Funny, I must have missed that on the news.

“With the patriot act, government agencies no longer need a warrent to search your home and all your records so long as they claim it pertains to a foreinge terrorist investigation.”

Wrong. In order for charges to hold up in court, a warrant must be issued by a judge for the search.

“The Pat act though lets them hold suspected terrorists or those that may come up in the course of a terrorist investigation indefniately and without due process or defenses or anything else that makes up America.”

Wrong. It only allows those taken in arms against the United States to be detained. That’s why the Lackawanna Six are not at Guantanamo.

“Instead of focusing on real terrorists and real threats, the Bush admin has waged a war on its own people under the guise of security and it sickens me.”

So Richard Reid (the “shoebomber”) was not a threat? How about the Taliban, who aided and protected Osama and Co.? What about Jose Padilla, who wanted to give Chicago a taste of ol’ plutonium? Saddam? Uday and Qusay? These are just the famous names; what about the hundreds who have funneled money and support? Many of them are now in jail, either having plead out or awaiting trial. They are all real terrorists and real threats. I don’t see any other victims of the Patriot Act.

Regards, Vince

P.S.: I am impressed with your knowledge of our Bill of Rights. Just don’t forget the most important amendment: the 2nd!

"I think that has been prohibited since the hijack craze of the early 1970's."

Resonable length pocket knives were alowed on all flights pre 911.

Bounty Please you amuse me so.

The passengers had the chance to make it right on Sept11. You think nobody else had a knife on those planes? Please.

K hero what would you have done when they put the plane into a spin and or had a box cutter to the neck of a 5 years old.

I guess you've taken back a plane with terrorists on it with your wife and kids next to you huh?

Your a hero.

LMAO

Flip

ok heres my 2 cents for what its worth, specifically on those "protesters."

people carrying around such objects as ball bearings, sharpened wooden sticks, razor blades and such to harrass police (and horses especially) should have been treated as terrorists because thats exactly what their motivation was to inspire chaos, panic fear and terror.

theres NO logical reason to carry sharpened sticks and razor blades to a "peacefull protest".

and of course my city gets screwed again because of the protesters connections, many are filling lawsuits about being detained and some psychotic judge has fined the city about 200k for detaining those "poor people" too long.


meanwhile a few thugs are CLEARLY caught on tape violently beating and stomping on someone to beat him to death, and the current legal defense is something along the lines of "he wasnt clearly identified ad a police officer".

hmm so i guess a violent mob of people attempting to murder a citizen isnt a crime anymore then?

or maybe they thought people got free passes to stand on the police side of the barricade on those mobile scooters then?


like the man said "only in america".

Welcome to the forum Flip. I'm going to have to step up and take Bounty's side on this even though he is one strange cookie in general. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> J/K. Anyway...

Flip, in response to your message to Bounty.... I don't know how things are where you're from but in my neck of the woods, having my son on board the plane would be more reason to resist rather than sit complacently and let him die. One doesn't have to be a hero to not be a coward. One doesn?t have to be a hero to protect his children but he certainly is a coward to sit complacently and watch them die. That is my opinion... nothing more and nothing less. I normally stay out of the "political" threads but this one hits too close to home because I have actually been in life threatening situations and you mentioning kids as a defense of cowarace is something I can't remain silent about. It scares me to know that there are so many cowards in the world. I hope I am there if the time comes so that my son doesn?t have to depend on a coward to protect his life in my absence. When someone puts a gun to your head do you 1) rely on them to not pull the trigger or 2) assume that they will pull it and do whatever it takes to preserve your life? This is a bit exteme but still a worthwhile (yet simplistic) analogy for the hijacking situation.

Gee Brian tell us how youd react when violence was threatened against your family. When a terrorist has a kife to your kids neck. Share with us your vast experience in handling life and death situations like this.

Talk is cheap we can rev up the manhood and claim we'd kick some ass but reality speaks differently. Do you think Brian there were no tough guys on the planes Sept 11?

Not knowing whats about to happen and fear paralyzes the toughest and its actually the people you wouldn't think would react that actually do.

Unless you have lived through a dire, death imminent, violent situation you DO NOT know how youd react.

Of course on a survival forum we be all rambo types though <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Flip

I was going to take your word on this, but I remembered the last time I had flown prior to 9-11-2001. It was sometime in 1993 and I distinctly remember being warned--I think by my boss--not to carry my knife on board. I left my Old Timer stockman at home. I did a little digging and found this:

Statement of James C. May ( president and CEO of the Air Transport Association of America) to the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
May 22, 2003

“Let me be completely candid with regard to the reported role of box cutting devices in the attack. Under pre-9/11 FAA regulations only ‘knives with blades four inches long or longer and/or knives considered illegal under local law’ were prohibited. Under a non-regulatory Checkpoint Operations Guide, developed by the FAA, the Regional Airline Association and the ATA, with FAA approval interpreting the FAA regulations, box cutting devices were considered a restricted item posing a potential danger. This meant that if such a device was identified, it could be kept off the aircraft. The FAA mandated metal-detection walk-through systems, however, were designed and tested to detect metallic items about the size of a small handgun or larger. The pre-9/11 screening system was not designed to detect or prohibit these types of small items, and we have no information indicating they were identified in the actual 9/11 screening of the terrorists.”

He seems to be suggesting that there were restrictions on knives at the time even if they were not prohibited by FAA regulations.

Obviously a moot point though since blades of any sort were not being screened for.

Regards, Vince

I'm pretty sure how I would react.

Pre 9-11: I would have sat quietly and did what I was told.

On 9-11: I don't know. (Do I have a cellphone?)

Post 9-11: I may not have a knife but I've still got teeth.

It's not really about being a hero. It's more like desperation.

(A 3" piece of hacksaw blade would be pretty useless though.)

Regards, VInce

Ah ha!:

Not getting your check yet proves you work for the government, or you have a tax refund coming that they are trying to keep from you.

In Wisconsin, a knife is a weapon if the blade is over 3" long. The last time I looked, there was no Federal law covering pocket knives. The last dictionary I looked at stated a weapon is anything used "OFFENSIVELY" against a human being, not defensively.

Bountyhunter

Flipper:

First of all, take a deep breath and calm down. Words on a screen should not induce a heart attack.

A hero, hardly, and I would have initially done what everyone else did on that ill fated voyage until I had heard the news. At that time, the premise is that everyone is going to die anyway, so at least try to destroy their mission even though unintended targets on the ground will die along with everyone on board.

What I am talking about is post 9-11. It makes more sense right now to allow people to carry knives so that if some yahoo does try to take over the plane, he will have armed masses to contend with instead of unarmed masses.

Back when some militants killed a member of the U.S. Navy, I decided it is better to kill them while on the ground than to let them kill innocents at will. This is easy for me to risk my family (Parents and brothers, no wives or children.) because our historical Baltic connection as enemies of the Arab world makes us expendable entities. Yes, if such a situation had arisen way back then, and either of my parents were being held with knives at their throats, I would have gone for the kill because I know my parents would be killed anyway so there is nothing to lose.

Of course this is all theory and bravado talking as none of us knows what we will and can do until it happens.

Bountyhunter

(P.S. Zoloft is really good stuff, better than Prozac and with far fewer side affects.)

Aw shucks Brian:

You don't have to compliment me, but thank you, I wear "strange, weird, and politically incorrect" with pride.

Good example, but cowardice can sometimes be, confused, unsure, hesitant, and concerned. We are all afraid of something.

Bountyhunter

Flipper:

I don't have that New York accent or the body for a Rambo type, but I know I would never want to be a Richard Simmons type (Except for the money, that I would like, his money.).

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Norad45:

I don't know about the teeth bit.

Because so many people have access to bullet and knife resistant vests, the place I would be shoving my knife repeatedly might give people the wrong idea if I were to start biting him there repeatedly. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I would want it clearly understood that I was attacking the hijacker and not gratifying him.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jeez bounty, how come they decided to pick on YOU? I'm glad I'm just getting cought up on this thread, or I'd have probably gotten it too! For what it's worth, I would tend to agree with you more often than your detractors, and I HAVE pulled the weapon from the other guy's hand MORE THAN ONCE, Flipper (No...not a hijacker on a plane, but a knife is a knife, and a pistol is a pistol, no matter where you're standing, and no matter who's holding it). Keep up the good fight bounty...I'm with ya all the way.

Troy

Airport security hasn't increased. Only the inconvenience has increased. The airport "security" that's been implemented is all eye-candy.

"Of course this is all theory and bravado talking as none of us knows what we will and can do until it happens."

Bounty,

Smartest thing said in this thread so far <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Flip

Wildcard163:

It is not a fight as far as I am concerned, it is a different way of seeing things for those of us on the forum that disagree.

"They" are not picking on me, it is just that "they" constitute a majority of people who are willing to disagree with me on this forum.

I am a card carrying "LIFE MEMBER OF THE NRA" and appreciate the 2nd amendment deeply, but I disagree with Norad45 that the 2nd amendment is the most important one. I believe it is the first amendment because if you can not state your case, no other act or amendment can exist. Unfortunately the first amendment has been basterdized by rich controlling interests, and political parties set up "free speech" zones away from their meeting places so that those who rally against them can be punished with convenient laws.

I know I am off the wall on some of my beliefs, but I also know many disagree with me because they do not want to believe there are the kinds of elements within our Govenment (Not everyone in a government has to know or agree with what a cell within the government is doing.) that are willing to remove anyone of any nationality (Even their own.) if it means more money or more power for them.

I want to be able to carry a knife where I used to carry a knife before 9-11 because there is no practical reason to deny me or other law abiding citizens of the United States of America. As far as convicted criminals go, if the crime they committed did not involve a knife or gun, they shouldn't lose the right to carry a knife, or have a firearm either.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

“...if you can not state your case, no other act or amendment can exist.”

I respectfully disagree. If you cannot DEFEND free speech--or any basic human right--then none of them matter. They are merely words on paper. The entire 20th Century stands as a monument to the fact that you simply cannot defend words with words. Eventually someone from the far left or the far right will try to silence you. If they have weapons and you do not then they WILL succeed. The reason that hasn’t happened in America is because of the armed citizenry.

Bounty, you know that I disagree with you profoundly in regards to the forces at work in our society. You are convinced that there are conspiratorial forces at work behind the scenes which are pulling the strings while I believe that what appears to be conspiratorial forces is in fact just bureaucratic inertia at work. (If I have misstated your stance I apologize; please feel free to clarify your position.) What is important is that we are both free to try--however futile it may be--to convince each other of the rightness of our position. I have heard that the First Amendment is under attack by the Patriot Act. If that’s the case how is it that we sit here and debate so freely?

I promise you that if I see the First Amendment being eroded, I will be right there defending it with you.

As a side note, the ban on Self-Loading weapons is about to expire. I urge everyone to run out right now and buy a Homeland Defense Rifle. Go wage war on the empty beer cans and paper plates that infest our wide open spaces. Pick up after yourself, or others. Most of all have fun!

Regards, Vince

"The airport 'security' that's been implemented is all eye-candy."

I agree entirely. But you have to remember that the reason for the increased visible security was to reassure a terrified public that air travel was safe. In the wake of 9-11-2001 nobody was flying. The American economy simply could not withstand that kind of fear of flying. Not only the airlines would suffer, but every sector of an already depressed economy would hemmorage money.

Like it or not, it worked. People got back on the planes. In droves.

I personally would be more confident if I had my handgun, or at least a knife, on board. But you can't please everybody.

Regards, Vince

You have to be able to call people to arms for an armed fight and you can not do that if the manner in which you may call them to arms is not available to you.

We can continue to speak on this forum because we are not significant enough in the class hierarchy to matter to those in power.

The late President John F. Kennedy was killed because he was going to pull us out of Vietnam, Martin Luther King was killed because he was able to influence significant masses that threatened the economy ot those in power, and Bobby Kennedy was killed because he would have pursued those who killed his brother with all the power of the Presidency. All were killed by moneyed interests despite their high positions and visability.

Norad45, you and I are nothing to people who kill Presidents and so we are allowed to talk.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bounty, Norad... I could listen (read) you two all night long. You're both so close yet so far apart... it's kind of like the thought patterns in my own head when I haven't made up my mind where I stand on a subject. Suffice it to say both the first AND second ammendments are worth fighting for.

Troy

P.S. I thought the Kennedys were capped for crossing the mob over the Chicago vote fix (vote early, vote often) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Wildcard163:

The mob is not that stupid. They would have had their own mothers turning them in if they had hit JFK. He was THE populist president of my era and Catholic to boot! No, the mob is not that stupid.

Bountyhunter

This is sounding more and more like a survivalist forum.

Bounty, you disappoint me. Everybody in the world knows that Jack, Bobby, and MLK were first cloned and then spirited away to Area 51 by black helicopters. The clones were then assassinated by the CIA, Fidel Castro, and Sam Giancanna, respectively. They were then bred to the McGuire sisters (cryogenically frozen at a party hosted by Andy Warhol at the supersecret government installation known as CBGB’s in NYC in the late 1970’s.) This super race of the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.-hating superleft are even now being groomed for the ultimate takeover of power by the Trilateral Commission-and everybody knows that the Trilateral Commission is led by none other than George Will and the late Ann Landers.

Kinda makes ya think, don’t it?

Regards, Vince

Goatrider:

Naw, we are just strung out 60's era pessimists.

I am lucky in that I just happen to be the humble, self-effacing good-looking one.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Norad45:

Man, you have been smoking too much Elk hair!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(P.S. I know the tactic, I just can't remember how to spell the word. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

Norad45:

Facetious!, that's the word I was trying to think of.

According to a Websters vest pocket dictionary, deluxe edition of about 50,000 words, it means "gay, witty".

Keep in mind this is a very old pocket dictionary from my high school days before "gay" was adopted as a sexual orientation description.

When the late President John F. Kennedy was assasinated on November 22, 1963 and they attributed the act to M1938 Italian Carcano 6.5mm (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38) rifle, I knew they were lying.

Back then I was still in high school, and very heavily into guns with subscriptions to most of the gun magazines and I hung around with like minded people.

Guns could be pruchased through the mail, and handguns required nothing more than a statement that the purchaser wae 21 years of age or older. The 6.5 Italian Carcano had such a bad reputation for reliability and accuracy that they were making them into floor lamps. It was rumored that they came with instructions to grab the rifles by the barrels and use them as clubs for the best results.

Lee Harvey Oswald did not have the ability to make the kinds of shots attributed to a lone gunman, and an expert rifleman would never have used such a piece of crap for an assasination.

Moving to "Around the campfire" under Bountyhunters musings. All are invited to discuss, argue, criticize, or just laugh at the postings.

Try to keep it civil enough so Chris isn't forced to shut us down. That means using really high-brow put downs and innuendo.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

>>I realize that I may be confusing the TSA with any sort of logic, but anybody have a clue why pliers are not allowed in carry-on??????? <<

I'm surprised no one came up with the obvious theory.

Whether or not that was the intent, outlawing "pliers" lets them just confiscate any Leatherman-style tool. Doesn't matter if the blade has been removed, and it prevents anyone manufacturing a "travel" version with no blade that would be legal- they can just confiscate anything that looks like one without bothering with details.

Why settle for merely disarming people when you can insure that they're completely helpless?

A good citizen is a helpless citizen. Anyone attempting to help themselves in any way is obviously demonstrating distrust in the government to do it for them.

Presumed_Lost:

You are going to end up on some pro-Government spinmiesters list now unless you have "undeniable, irrefutable proof" of what you say. Of course the spinmiesters will say they feel so much safer if no one can use a pliers to pinch sensitive areas and force people to comform to the requests of the pliers holder. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(P.S. I just keep getting better and better. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

On my last flight, I carried a keychain with a Streamlight Key-Mate flashlight, a BSA Hot Spark, and a small, aluminum capsule with a few pills and lots of cotton "packing" in it. This gives me a light, a spark, and some tinder (plus some headache relief).

I've gotten lots of close looks at the BSA striker, but since it has no edges and a rounded tip, it always passes muster.

I also carried a coarse diafold sharpener, a metal ball-point pen, and about 50 feet of paracord in my shoulder bag. I carried a 12-inch steel ruler in my carry-on luggage.

Before I fly again, I'm going to add some kevlar gloves to my travel kit.

Bear