Vacuum packing survival materials

I have noticed several references on the "Equipped" site to vacuum packing items for a personal survival kit. Does anyone have any recommendations as to what type/brand vacuum sealer is most suitable for this purpose?

I've been very pleased with my Food Saver brand.
HINT: When I packed my PSK, I used a significantly larger bag than required for the small kit. When opened, the bag became a water carrier.

i just recieved a black & decker food sealer for my birthday its not bad but after sealing a few test bags i noticed they lost some of the brick like feel of them.

i couldnt move things around alot but that tight hard feel wasnt as tight anymore, so im not sure if i didnt seal properly or what.

if this happened to anyone else id appreciate some advice there.


besides that ive heard rival was a good brand.

NY Rat:
In my experience, too, the bags sometimes develop slow leaks over time. For me this is not a problem. If it is annoying, I just replace and repack.
I don't use these bags for survival food storage,... just to pack my small kit. In fact, sometimes I don't even pull a vacuum on the bag: I just squeeze out excess air by hand and heat-seal it.
IMHO the advantages are that the "container" can be as large or as small as you need it. I even have bags-within-bags: a mylar emergency "blanket", wire, and duct tape shrunk down suprizingly small in one bag (shelter); a few bandaids and some newskin packets in another; and everything else in the PSK distributed throughout the larger bag with the two smaller ones within. But my point is, with this packing approach you can cut/shape/arrange/pack anyway you wish.
A disadvantage it that, once opened, you need the machine to re-seal. Or, in the field, a bit of duct tape.
NOTE: where this vacuum packer REALLY is neat is for emergency clothing. A set of spare socks, polypro long underwear, even a waterproof shell, etc. etc. can be squeezed down amazingly thin and tight (and in a waterproof bag, of course). For gear that I don't get into except at a time of urgent need, I keep the stuff packed in the large (12"x ??") bags and stowed in my duffle bag or vehicle. TRY IT: you can compress a warm, dry, change of clothing into a package no thicker than a Brooklyn telephone directory.

I use the food saver brand alot to freeze bulk food. It works well, but you need to check the seal to make sure it is complete. I do wish the heating element was closer to the vacuum chamber to avoid the wasted bag edges.

I did vacuum pack a roll of gauze for my med kit to reduce bulk. It took a couple of cycles to vacuum, seal, trim to reduce the packaging to a managable size (~2x2 in), but it worked. That particular item has not lost vacuum yet, but I have had others do so. Part is the quality of the bags. I like the food saver ones, not so much the black and decker bags.

We have the Tilia from Costco, and love it. After a while the little rubber seal poops out, theywill send you a new one for free whenever you ask. One trick we have learned, for some things (trailmix for one) we put the item in a ziploc freezer bag, but DO NOT zip it shut, then put that bag in the sealer bag and vacuum seal it. That way, when you open it later you have a sealable container to keep the item in...

Great Idea with the Ziplocks!!! I think I may start doing this when I'm backpacking. I always need to pack things as small and light as possible and hate having to sacrifice resealability (I think I made up a new word) in order to do so.

NYRat:

The more air something has in it, the longer you have to use the vacumn pump to evacuate the air.

A brick of cheese that is vacumn packed may have maintained surface texture long enough to retain air inside its structure and then later the air may have broken out of the brick into the bag and given it that squishy feel. Also, anything you vacumn pack that has water in it may feel solid unless that water would somehow break down into its component parts of hydrogen and oxygen which would again cause the bag to start feeling squishy.

Having been in the HVAC trade (I'm still qualified, mentally and legally, but shut out of the trade because of my knees.), I have the mother of vacumn devices at my disposal. I have a dual chamber vacumn pump capable of almost absolute vacumn that can pump down at 3.5 cubic feet per minute. That crushed can demonstration they give for food vacumn pumps would probably happen so fast with this machine that if you blinked, you might miss it. The problem is getting a plastic sealer that is not expensive but still consistent so that I seal without burning through.

If your pump on your food sealer ever breaks down, you could salvage an old refrigerator compressor, some tubing on the suction side attached to a football inflator needle to do the vacumn process and still use the sealer to make the bags.

Bountyhunter

that is a great idea bountyhunter.

and to williams post, i only have black & decker bags right now since it was a bday gift last month.

im worried about leakage because i want to stock up on some bulk foods and not worry about spoilage hopefully.

btw what about those mylar bags that are often used with sealed buckets and such?
can they be used in a food sealer effectivly or is there any reason not to use them?

The only things I have tried are the food saver and B&D bags. They do make those el cheapo resealers for chip bags (mylar), but I have never tried one, but the theory holds. The only problem I see is potential burn through. Only one way to find out.

Bill

I looked for a long time for a vacuum machine, but could not find one, in France.

Then, a very simple model appeared on the market, and I bought that one (for about 50 Euros IIRC)
....
And 3 weeks later I saw the model I was really looking for ( more robust, more powerfull, larger bags, but much more expensive). <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So, presently, I only have the cheap model. I too have the "loss of vacuum pb" you describe, either using the recommended bags or cheaper bags.
I don't know if air is coming in due to bad sealing or something else (poor quality of the bags, damaged bags,.... ?). <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I will give this one next Xmas <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and buy a superior model (9 times more expensive ...) <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Frenchy:

Try an old refrigerator compressor (Air conditioning compressors do not generally pull down as good a vacumn.) before spending more money and then finding out it was the bag, the seal, or your technique. You can usually find an old working one for free in a refrigerator that has been discarded by the side of the road.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

When packing things like clothes and sleeping bags there are plastic bags with a one way valve you hook up to a vacuum cleaner ad suck out the air. This protects the clothes from dampness and keeps them fresh. This can also be done with the seal a meal vacuum packing machines. I’ll add two poor man versions. Both use generic ziploc style bags. The first is used on bulky items like clothes that will not be damaged by being crushed. Stuff the bag, place on a hard surface, cover with a board [like a square of plywood] and sit on it. When the air is squeezed out seal the bag. The final method requires an adapter. The adapter sizes the hose on your vacuum cleaner down to a cocktail stirrer straw. You want this small size straw so it is less likely to collapse when the vacuum is drawn and it makes it easier to seal the bag. The adapter can be a cork, rubber stopper, rolled up tape or anything that will form a seal. You will want to off set the straw to near the edge. This will make it easier to work on flat surfaces. Pack the bag. Insert the straw. Seal the bag except where the straw enters. Place on a firm surface. Place a thumb or finger over the straw over the bag seal. Turn on the vacuum. When the air is removed quickly pull out the straw. At the same time press down and seal the bag. This method works nicely for items that could be damaged by the squeeze method. This method could work with your refer compressor. Learned that trick from this device. http://www.pump-n-seal.com/
The Pump-N-Seal may be cheap and look like junk but they do work.

Such bags or this one can be used without a vacuum cleaner :
just put your clothes in it, squeeze it, compress it : air goes out the valve and it's done !
So you can do this during your trip (as I assume you don't take your vacuum cleaner along !!)

Raspy:

When the "Montreal Protocol" first emerged for the purposes of capturing refrigerant ("Freon", a brand name used by most.) some manufacturer actually made some of those "Reverse Tire Pumps" designed to purge systems and capture refrigerant.

In theory, it is possible to create a vacumn down to the requirements under the rules that went into effect for reclaimation. The reality is that there exist few people in this world that could pump long enough to do a proper job on a refrigeration system. It was legal and cheap, and the unspoken understanding was that it was a legal cover for people that continued to vent refrigerant to the atmosphere.

The way they insured compliance was that you had to register your recovery appliance with the EPA, and the following year when the telephone books came out the EPA could compare service companies with thier records, and anyone that had not registered could be issued a fine through the mail and a cease operation edict. I spent almost $1,000.00 for the real McCoy reclaimation pump, used it maybe 20 times (Most Hvac-R problems are control related.), and it currently sits in my garage looking as clean as the day I bought it. Another way they maintained compliance is a first time caught fine for intentionally violating the Montreal Protocol of $25,000.00 with a bounty of 15% paid to the person who turned you in.

For clothes, that pump will work nicely for evacuating air. Just remember to put clean dry warm clothes in a fairly dry environment in the bag before sealing.

If you want to do the same thing "on the cheap", take a quality bicycle tire pump, put the hose on the air intake end by screwing in a hose fitting adapter, and viola, same thing, probably better, and a lot less expensive.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Raspy, how long have you been able to keep a vacuum in a ziplock? I have used your method to pull a vacuum in a ziplock, using a vacuum pump not a shop vac, but i have not been able to keep a ziplock with vacuum in it for more than a few days. What brand ziplocks have you had success with? And yes i know that a plastic bag will not hold a hard vacuum for long but the ziplocks that i have tried have not held a vacuum at all.

I admit because ziploc bags are o2 permiable the don't hold a hard vaccum well. The best way is to double bag. Also if you put a small amount of vegatable oi [a single drop usually does it] l in the sealin strip it will hold longer. Also a big part of the problem is getting a good solid seal on the bag itself. Often when closing the bag the seal is only partially closed. I have found this when playing with them in a reverse situation making an air bubble. It appears closed but pops open with little encouragement after a short time.

Raspy & RayW:

Another sealer you could use to increase the zip lock seal is the removable silicone caulking sold for sealing purposes where you may have to disassemble what you seal. I would think it would work better than the vegetable oil, and be less messy.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Silicone caulking, the next best thing to duct tape. Thanks

We have the Pump N Seal, and have used it to some advantage to compress clothing and other items for tight packing into our BoB's, but we're not happy with the Ziploc performance either.

Is there a decent bag (or set of bags) that are compatible with the Pump N Seal (Or those nifty ideas Bountyhunter suggested which makes Sarah and I want to go checking out old dead refrigerators at the side of the road - except I wouldn't know a compressor pump if it bit me in the peculiars) that we could use in the field?

The thing we noticed is not the initial pumping and sealing, but REpumping and REsealing away from the Pump N Seal (We only have one).

We COULD theoretically carry one in each of our BoB's, but at this point we consider it semi-useless without proper bags that will hold a proper seal more than once.

Bountyhunter, hit me in private to tell me how to get one of those compressors out of a dead fridge - talk slow, I'm mechanically declined.

Building one of those into a vacuum sealer sounds like a great weekend project, especially if the expensive parts are free.

Panz

A point to remember, sleeping bags should be stored in an uncompressed manner (generally a large cotten laundry bag works well) to keep the insulation from permanently becomming compressed, and the bag loosing it's loft, and hence its insulation value. I have seen this happen with keeping it in its waterproof stuff sack for too long.

Panzerboy:

Let's do the instructions in public in case others want to salvage old refrigerator compressors.

The compressor is the big black hermetically sealed steel can usually located at the bottom back of an old refrigerator. It has at least 2 metal tube emenating from it which are the discharge and suction tubes. There will be electrical wires connected to a relay assembly usually mounted behind a cover directly on the compressor.

First and foremost,if all the tubes are intact with no obvious cuts or breaks, and the evaporator (That is usually the aluminum freezer section on small refrigerators, and a coil type aluminum array of tubes, fins, with a small fan in the freezer section of a larger refrigerator.) has not been punctured with a steak knife some YAHOO tried to defrost it with, leave it alone. Breaking into a sealed system without the credentials required by the EPA is a felony violation with a $25,000 first time fine.

ANOTHER VERY SERIOUS CONCERN FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT SMOKE IS THAT R12 REFRIGERANT BECOMES A DEADLY NERVE GAS IF IT PASSES THROUGH A FLAME, EVEN A CIGARETTE. I personally believe that is the reason it was outlawed, and not because of green house effect that it contributes to.

If you can get a refrigerator that has been punctured, the refrigerant is gone and you can safely remove the compressor, its vibration bushings, the relay (which should be mounted on the compressor, but may be on the frame.(this is especially true if it has been serviced and had a generic relay installed with a capacitor for better kick starting.)), and the electrical cord.

The suction side of the compressor has tubing that is slightly larger in diameter than the discharge side. Solder a barbed hose fitting to the suction side, attach a 48 inch long 3/8" or smaller diameter hose that is designed to be used for suction so that it does not collapse when drawing vacumn. Wire an on/off switch to the hot (The smaller prong on a 3-prong wire.) wire and attach that wire to the one of the "hot line" connections on the relay (There should be a schematic on the relay or a L1, which is "HOT, and a L2 which is neutral identifier on the relay connection.), and attach the ground wire (Never work without a ground!) to the frame holding the starter assembly on the compressor.

Attach an appropriate piece of metal tubing or a football inflator needle to the 48 inch long hose (The bigger the metal tubing going into the bag, the faster the vacumn, but consider your need to seal around the protrusion.), hit the switch and watch it work. When your vacumn needs are met, seal and remove the tubing.

Once you are sure the system works, you can use the anti-vibration grommets to mount it on a wooden platform, attach a carrying handle, and you are good to go.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

If you don't want to go to the trouble of removing or risk the fines of improper removal. Stop by an appliance repair company and you could pick one up for nothing or next to it. Tell them that it is part of a science project for your son and they might even feel sorry for you and wire it up.

RayW:

Tried that route when I first started taking HVAC in Milwaukee Area Technical College back in 1982. Didn't work for me because the shops only kept compressors that worked which they could resell or mount on used non working refrigerators.

They all wanted cash for what they had.

Bountyhunter

Hate it when that happens. I have not scavenged a compressor this way but i have managed to aquire a few other spare parts. My vacuum pump is not for ac work it is a medical pump and i found it cheap at a pawn shop, bought it mainly for bleeding brakes.

RayW:

I have one of those hand operated vacumn pumps (The good brass one, not the cheap plastic one.) which I bought for bleeding brakes, and have never been able to do a good job with it.

The way I bleed brakes now is with a soda bottle and a length of hose.

Put some brake fluid in the bottle, dunk the hose so it stays immersed under the fluid. Run the other end of the hose to the bleed nipple (Different diameter hose for different bleed nipples.), and crack the bleed seat just enough to allow the fluid to bleed out under pressure. Get in the car and push the brake pedal down slowly to the floor and let it come up by itself. Do this until the resistance feels a little greater (It will still go to the floor because the valve is open.) Get back under the car and seat the bleed valve tight, and do the same to all the other lines, remembering to fill the brake reservoir as you bleed fluid out.

The hose being immersed in brake fluid will not be able to allow air back in when the pedal moves back up and air in the line will be expelled out or float back through the lines to the reservoir.

One car I did this with had the safety valve that blocks off the two diagonal brakes from losing fluid if one of them leaks. I had to find the instructions to reset that, and they were to merely slam on the brake pedal very hard while staitonary, and it reset.

Have no experience with ABS and can not give any comments on how to bleed them.

Bountyhunter

has anyone here tried to vacuum seal their own water?

by making a block of ice then sealing it?

if anyone has done this does it stay fresh?
assuming you used filtered water not tap.

Yes, I've tried.
Tasted nasty after 1 wk. But I guess "taste" has nothing to do with survival. I did not put any preservative in the water, so I have no idea what the bacteria count had evolved to.
So, for me, I decided this was an idea not worth doing.

NY RAT:

It has been a long time since high school, but I remember the glass of water in the bell jar demonstration we had in science class. When you draw a vacumn in an area that has water in it, you lower the temperature required to boil the water so that the water will actually boil at whatever the room temperature is.

We never tried it with ice, but the same thing would occur and that the ice would start to melt and the water created would start to boil, and you could never draw a vacumn until all the water, formerly ice, boiled out of the container.

Bountyhunter

Bounty, never tried one of the hand vacuum pumps. Know a few people that have one and most say that it is a little slow. I have been told that if you put some teflon tape around the bleed screw threads you get much less air leaking making the vacuum more efficient. I have done brake bleeding with just the hose and the bottle and it works.

The catch jar on my vacuum will hold over a quart so it has a constant supply of vacuum, and when i flush the brake system i usually run about a quart through the lines. And when i am doing this by myself the vacuum makes it easy, attach the hose, flip the switch, open the bleed screw, and keep adding fluid to the master cylinder.

The differential valves in most non-abs cars is reset by slamming on the brakes, if nothing else you know you did a good brake job. Also if you are doing a non-ABS pickup there is a proportioning valve located on one of the frame rails under the bed, as more weight is added to the back of the truck the valve allows more pressure to the rear brakes to help you stop easier. There is usually a bleed screw on top of this valve.

ABS system on most cars can be bled with your method or a vacuum pump, vacuum bleeding is the recomended method, but make sure the car is off and don't let the master cylinder run out. If air gets into some of the valves it can be a real pain to get out. Some of the complicated ABS systems require actuating some of the electric valves to properly bleed and flush, stay away from these.

Looks like I’m going to be repeating myself. The alternate vacuum packing post is part of a longer article that I am currently writing. From the questions asked and other comments I realized that more was needed. Here I did try to answer the questions on the fly with little thought. I decided to make the necessary clarifications in my article. The following is the added information in a more coherent form. I decided that even though much is a repeat of some that I already did. It would be easier to post it complete to present a better picture. I also want to thank bountyhunter because I never thought of the possibility of silicon sealent.

A couple of tips about using the ziploc like bags. Forget the thin sandwich bags. They will not hold up go with the heavier duty freezer bags. Frequently these bags will not hold a vacuum very well. A small part of this is plastic is somewhat permeable to O2 and other gases. This can be delayed to an extent by double bagging. Furthermore the error of over filling the bag. Yes we all probably suffer from the desire to get the most out of what we do by over packing. If this is done this can put a strain on the sealing area. As they are meant be reopened this strain can cause at seal to separate. Another factor is it is common not to fully seal the baggies. The interlocking strips are engaged but not completely seated. You may need to press them closed several times to be sure. Finally a trick I picked up from a company that makes a small hand held mechanical vacuum pump. Placing a small drop of oil in the seal juncture. I repeat a small drop. You want just enough to form a very thin film in the seal tracks not flood the bag getting oil on everything. This forms a hydraulic type lock that helps hold the seal better. Vegetable oils are best for this. Petroleum oils can deteriorate the plastic of the bag and if edibles are involved can contaminate the product.

OK, you have sealed the bag is there anyway to improve the seal on these. Yes, several ways. The opening can be taped shut using clear packing tape or duct tapes. For more long term you can place a bead of silicon caulking in the top next to the normal seal. This can be the more permanent type goo or those strips that are more temporary but could possible be reused. Then there are those heat-sealing devices. The ones touted for re-closing chip and cereal bags. I have tried one and am not highly impressed. The seal is very narrow about like a fine pencil line. It is far to easy to leave gaps or burn through both leaving holes in the seal. I suppose that with a lot of practice you could overcome this. I would be happier with a wider sealing area such as those on the vacuum sealing machines. If one of these are used it would be advantageous to perform this heat seal between the zipper closure and the outside because they often cut through the plastic. If done between the storage area and the seal the cut would separate the sealing area defeating the idea of a double seal.

Plus wouldn't dissolved O2 and CO2 in the water be liberated once the ice melted?

Wellspring:

No, it would be Hydrogen and Oxygen (H2O) that would be liberated (VIVA La France!).

Bountyhunter

Well, I suppose water vapor also. What I meant is that water also has dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) and O2 (what fish breathe). Not sure what, if any, other gases are normally present dissolved in water.

What I'm not sure about is whether they'd be liberated when the air pressure goes down. I suppose so, since that's how your lungs remove CO2 from your bloodstream. But is it enough to make a difference?

Wellspring:

Unless my memory has completely failed me, CO2 is carbon dioxide, a gas.

O2 is merely two molecules of oxygen, a gas.

The definition for water is H2O (2 parts hydrogen with 1 part oxygen.) which does not allow for the presence of other components.

Therefore, evaporation of ice, water in a frozen state, and subsequent evaporation of water would release only hydrogen and oxygen.

Bountyhunter

P.S. Not many people know this, but water is not a conducter, but is an insulator of electricity. Electricity will not flow through water, period.

Yep, you're right. Pure water is not a conducter.
But if any dirt or salt in it.......


IMHO evaporation of water gives ... water ! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> just a change of state (?), not a chemical reaction.
You would get hydrogen and oxygen if you can break the H2O molecule (i.e. using a DC voltage)

About Wellspring post :
I think he was not speaking about the H2O molecule itself, but about all sort of stuff that can be dissolved in water like salt, strawberry syrup etc... and O2 and CO2 ...
Fishs use O2 "mixed" in water, they don't break H2O molecules with their gills.

So I guess both of you are right, but are not speaking about the same thing ! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yep, that's it exactly!

Frenchy:

I wish you hadn't given it away as I was waiting for a whole spate of people telling me I was full of it up to my eyeballs.

Hell, I know certified electricians who have argued with me that water conducts electricity, with darn few of them knowing it is the suspended impurities in water that conducts the electricity.

I was under the impression that water vapor breaks down into its component parts during the boiling process as I have never seen it reconsitute in the air. I do know that water vapor does condense on cold surfaces, but never did follow up on how that comes to pass.

Bountyhunter