How would you test your skills?

I want to test my skills but it is impossible. Every time I go camping, kayaking or hiking I have enough backups to equippe half the river. Simple thing as fire... I have my Windmill lighter, waterproof matchers and book of matches together with my pipe. On top of that I have flares and fire starter. Now I can make fire with all these things in a minute. Don't even get me started about flashlights and blades (although I converted to carrying a folder, wave and fixed sog).

So with deeply rooted idea of back ups and redundancy how would you set up a survival trip short of going naked into the woods?

Matt

Matt,

Don't leave the backups at home. Take them along, but keep them in your pack. For instance, try making a fire with a hand drill or flint & steel, and until you can properly master this, you still have your Windmill to fall back on. Build a debris shelter, but bring along a tent, try snaring or fishing, but bring food with you. It's good to practice, but no sense being miserable with no fire, shelter, etc.

Matt,

Maybe I am totally missing the point of your post, but wouldn't the fact that you are always properly prepared and skilled in the use of your equipment mean that these items are always with you when you are out in the wild and that you would have them with you in a survival situation, thus again, you are already properly prepared and avoiding the necessity of having to put yourself in a "naked survival" situation. I have always thought of "preparedness" being the key to survival and everytime you go out prepared you are testing yourself. Do you ever see yourself out in the woods (or stepping out of your home for that fact) without your EDC (at a minimum) and the things you feel you may need in an emergency. Basic tools and backups. Each time you use these items in a normal situation you are testing yourself. The only other thing I could think of is setting up an actual "Survival Outing". Take only the bare minimum and see how it goes for a day or two. Any thoughts on this argument?

Zen Buddhism has two schools; Rinzi, with the classic Koans ( stupid questions) and Soto, a much gentler guide of inuitive search. Survival practise and formal instruction mirrors the two schools closely. Some instructors like to watch students fail, get miserable and struggle. Well and good, it gives a sense of reallity and potential for disaster. You can do this by going out nekkid into the wilderness, catch West Nile Virus from multiple mosquito bites and crawl back to a life of urban security, vowing never to go near even a golf course after dark. Or, you can study under folks that demonstrate the right way and see that you can master the skills. There is no reason not to practise as others suggest with backups on hand. We all fail. Suffering through a rainy night eating a half frozen MRE doesn't have to be part of the failure. My first Rinzi master asked new students various Koans. When they failed, he slapped them on the face. He asked me " what is sound of one hand clapping." I demonstrated by slapping him. My new Soto Roshi took us for walking meditations through the Tea Garden in San Francisco. He said I dawdled, looked at clouds ,pretty women and was undisciplined- the perfect student . Just get out there <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just like my old man I can be wearing a suit and I will have a Leatherman on me. But he mentioned that when flying in between islands in Hawaii he had to leave his multi tool behind in order to get on the plane. If something happened right there you are bladeless...

Same goes for river kayaking event that happened to me few years back. I've flipped my boat few times and it is not a pleasant experience (well depends on the season and location). Now last time I did it I was in class 2-3 rapids. Now I don't really care about my kayak so I just let it flow down. I have another stuck kayaker right behind me that I'm trying to help because she is about to flip. Now I have water rushing, sharp rocks and after falling down I ripped my PFD open and entire content of the pocket spilled. It was getting wedged into rocks so I cut it off. I pushed her boat thru and floated down. Now I'm stuck on the beach, with Sebenza and wave... I walked half a mile grabbed my boat and realized that Windmill lighters are not waterproof. Had a hard time starting the fire and I was cold. I didn't start the fire since I knew it's about 2 miles to the car. I paddled thru, got into the car and drove to the coffee shop to get some warm stuff into me. But I lost essential part of my gear and if I haven’t grabbed my boat I would be stuck with no means of making fire, in cold weather (april), no food, and shelter but with two blades and flashlight.

Or coming out of Maine islands last year when my partner got slammed against rocks and flipped. His bag was striped and he found out that Baja Deck bag when submerged will let the water in quite easily. Now on that trip he lost a lot of stuff and found out that cigarettes soaked with sea water, dried out and smoked again taste horrible. But he had no means of making fire. I was his backup but I had my problems and coming into bay with 8 footers behind you everything might have happened. Since I was soaked wet as well we had two books of matches between us and some water proof box. And it’s all getting dumper everyday since it wouldn’t stop raining.

I think my point is to train in case of total failure but problem with exercising is that like it was mentioned to have the backup and do the difficult method first and if no success than switch over to the easier stuff. Well if in the back of your mind you know you can restore to easier methods you will have a tendency to be more careless and slacking. I was just trying to find out if there is maybe a sample practice that somebody did and list of stuff that they had and what they had done in order to start the fire, build a shelter and eat.

Matt

I guess I'm trying to set up a 3 day excercise. From point A to point B with list of supplies I can take. No backups and don't make it to easy. Maybe a PSK that fits into Naglene Bottle, Blanket and a cup. I was just lookign for suggestions how to set something like that up.

Matt

I have found the best way to test your skills is practice one thing at a time. Set a weekend of camping aside just for working on firebuilding. Bring with you all you need, start with stuff you bring and slowly start taking stuff you brought and putting it away in your bag until your left with next to nothing. I like to start the trip with everything and finish using nothing more then my knife.Once you get good at one thing set up a weekend for something else. (ex: shelter building, food/water gathering, ect)

I am not a phyciatrist, and I don't even play one on TV, but is it possible that this sudden urge to go out and determine you can tough it out has something to do with your job loss? Are you trying to punish yourself because you feel you did something wrong to lose your job, or are you trying to prove you can adapt to anything in order to "show" (Naturally your former employers will not really see the results.) "them" that you are still a capable human being?

Sorry about the questions, but I was a P.I. licensed by the State of Wisconsin, and my training was to see if there is anything to read between the lines.

Bountyhunter

(P.S. And now you know from whence came my moniker.)

My 4 year degree is in forensic psych so we are close <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But the short answer to your question is no... I know what I can do but I enjoy hardships and chalenges and I don't really need to prove anything to anyone.

It refers to this thread:

http://www.equipped.org/scripts/showthre...=true#Post27566

I started reading a lot of things and would like to implement new ideas in practice.

I also have more time on my hand and I really didn't have much time off so until I find a new job and in between school I really want to have some fun at least thru part of august.

Matt

First you are going to file an itinery with somebody listing your planned trip with destination, estimated time and route. I would scratch the blanket in favor of an appropriate sleeping bag. If you get sick or injured you will need it's critical shelter. Blankets are for civil war re enactors, and even those guys don't court piles and consumption for total authenticity. Select minimum gear you are familiar with and weigh each one's weak and strong points. If I break my arm can I really spark my metal match effectively? Maybe a one handed Sparklite or practising one handed methods is more realistic. You can pack quite a few goodies into a Nalgene bottle. You have to determine what is appropriate for your area and the season. There is a difference between "roughing it" and self flagellation <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

How about this:

http://www.survival.com/solo_survival.htm

Can you take another bag even if small? Take one piece of gear you normall use and put it in that bag and tell yourself you forgot/lost/broke/used it and try to do whatever you need to do without that one piece. If you normally carry all your gear on your belt then get a small neck sack for the one piece, or vise versa. Each time you go out rotate a different piece into the off limits bag and get by without it.

Don't go naked into the woods... you'll be cold, and you might get arrested.
Take the equipment along as a back-up, but try not to use it. Get that fire going with a fire bow, make a shelter from what's around you instead of what's on your back ( or in your pocket ), take the time to boil water instead of using chemical gadgets. Have some FUN under controled conditions, then when you need the skills, you've already "been there, done that".

Troy

ALWAYS take what you need. Don't cut yourself short, just because you have a lighter doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. Take along whatever you might want/need, then try to do without, but ALWAYS have the creature comforts along... no sense in making a fun weekend outing into so many hours of misery, or worse yet, quitting and going home because of a short-coming, use the back-up, stick it out, and LEARN SOMETHING <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Hey Matt,
As far as a list goes, how "native" do you wanna get? I once read that the Eskimos say "with a knife, you live". I wouldn't suggest that most people go quite that far... but it's possible. Start slow, get a fire going with a bow drill, and your whole outlook will change. After that, actually build a debris hut or a lean-to from what nature provides, pretty soon, you'll be looking for the "hard" way to do things just for the thrill of doing it and being able to say "I can".

Troy

Please take my advice, friend... ALWAYS have a back-up, just try not to use it.

Troy

Dittos, great advice... we're not in the Rangers, and Rambo's only on film.

Troy

P.S. For those of you who ARE in the rangers, thank you from the bottom of my heart, you deserve far more thanks and praise than you'll ever get.

If you are coming over here we will find the cure for your disease <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have you decided yet??

Burak

Matt, All the replies being similar, the common thread is that the best training exercise in the world is fruitless if you don't come back from it. I am not saying that would happen, but it can everytime we all step into the woods (or wherever).

I have spent time on scout outings sitting around trying to light fires with flint and steel. It takes practice and I am glad I could fall back on a dry sleeping bag. By all means limit the use to your EDC/PSK, but either have a backup system or a person to bail you out if the bubble goes up. That is why we equip ourselves in the first place, right?

Matt,

I think that with some progressive practice (i.e. you bring the gear with you but use it only if you fail on the primitive stuff), you'll find out that "roughing it" is not that hard. Of course, it all depends on the season, your condition/health, etc. It's all about thinking ahead and not pushing yourself so hard that you ever reach your limits in anything (dehydration, hypo/hyperthermia, fatigue, lack of sleep, etc.).

I'm teaching that stuff to people right now, and we use that very simple approach: we all carry the essentials, and we try to use them as little as possible. Doing so, people find out what gear they really need. The items you wish you could get out of your backpack the most often are the true essentials... and they are a personal thing (yet there are many similitudes on the required tasks : collecting and purifying water, cutting stuff, making fire, cooking/containing, tying/building, and waterproof shelters... and taking care of blisters <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> -- the rest of the jobs are just not appearing often <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Cheers,

David

This thread is so "wide" that I can not read it. I have to keep moving the image to the end of the line and back. Very difficult to read that way. Seems to happen on threads, but not individual postings. I have my browser set to the smallest type.

What do I have set wrong??

Do you read the forum in flat mode like I do? Than that's because Matt didn't shorten the URL he posted, making us scroll horizontally. Please use the UBB code when posting links. Thanks! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Funny you should say that.
Just this past Tuesday, my son and I took my Recon bag (the one I use on SAR jobs and keep in the truck) and walked out into the woods, where we set up the tent and then went about making a fire using only a boy scout magnesium fire starter. basically, what we had was all that I used, and we had a snack and he told me he was going to hunt for a "wild chicken" for dinner. While this was playtime for him, for me it was a time to evaluate the kit, think about what I needed and should have had (I really could have used some ground-cover plastic, the bottom of the tent got wet) and we needed more tent pegs than I expected. About once a month, in all weather, we have a play date out in the woods, somethimes with the recon bag, sometimes with just the PSK. We built a derbris shelter in the woods this past winter, equipped only with our hands and my tiny PSK that's on my belt and we were still in out of the snow just fine.
Basically, you've got to make the time, and make the scenario.

Guilty!

...hmmmmm...

i know my view isnt going to be a popular one since it goes against alot of whats already been said here.

while i do agree with leaving an itinerary,location and such incase the worst does happen.
and bring a cellphone or something incase you need to call someone to save you. (maybe your training exercise will be within distance of a friend or state park etc).

now after taking those precautions heres where my theory of chaos and murphys law comes in.

pack a bag, a b.o.b type bag with what you think youd need but it all has to fit in that one bag only.

then have someone you can trust (brother , father, best buddy etc) randomly take some of your items out while your doing something else and cant witness this.

the reason being is simple,in times of crisis when were on the go at a moments notice things can constantly go wrong.
the other bags you carry rip open, fall off your pack, or are with someone in your party who got seperated from you.

so you take that one bag thats in your trunk or where ever and go in not knowing whats missing, same as if the crap really hit the fan and you didnt have time to check.

but thats why i mentioned the cellphone, itinerary and such incase you did need a bail out.
and for a safety measure take the good sleeping bag and tent with you just incase.

its better to be miserable possibly with out some of your best equipment in an exercise with the thoughts of going home tomorrow or in a day or so as you make due, then to be stuck there for an indetermined amount of time with the same misfortunes.


have fun, come back safe and let us know how it went.