Pepper spray questions

About eight years ago, I was working at night in a factory. Around six o'clock me and one colleague left the factory to go to his appartement that was a few streets farther. when we reached a railroad underpass, we saw a dog, german shepherd, far away on the sidewalk in front of us. It was running in our direction barking at apparently us. So my colleague told me "you have to show it that you are the master..." or something like that (in french canadian). When the dog reached us my colleague used his lunch box to distract it, which was turning around him all excited. And then out of nowhere, a second german shepherd, bigger then the first one showed up from a bush behind the underpass growling at me. At the split second when it was just jumping on me I had the reflex to kick it on the muzzle. I gave it a sort of mawashi geri but with the heel instead of the top of the foot. It was like kicking on a sand bag but it stopped its jumping maneuver. And then after that I ran away by zigzagging in the street in the hope that the vehicles would interfere with the dog (the rush hours were just starting) and it worked. One of the dogs apparently had been hit by a car since it was limping later. So the two dogs started to bark after the cars when the light of the intersection turned red. It allowed us to run away. We then reached a payphone and called the police. They took about 30 min to one hour to control them. They would stay in their car using long perches with a lasso at one end. It was two guard dogs escaped from the yard of a car lot or garage or something with big fences. Today I'm wondering if I had some pepper spray on my belt, would it have worked? I was lucky that day cause I could have missed it. My questions are:

1. would this product be effective and relied upon (a paltry half a percent of OC I think...)?
http://www.fcsurplus.ca/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=3248
or this one:
http://www.macecanada.com/canada/product/sabre.htm

2. would it be inconspicuous enough to have it in a holster on your belt (it would be useless to have it in your backpack)?

3. what is the difference between Capsicum and Capsaicin?

4. Does anyone know by any chance what are the alternatives and if I can buy some 10% OC legally in Canada?

5. Can I know how much capcinoids these products have?

Thanks in advance.

I know most American mailmen carry an animal specific OC spray clipped to their pocket, so I guess it would work. I don't know about Canadian legalities though, here in the US in most places you can carry any kind of OC you want, however in some places there are restrictions. Anyway, once you figure this out from what I have been told by a lot of police officers the best spray is made by Fox Labs, so that must be the preferred stuff to buy.

You can always buy a cheap plastic squirt gun ( Get one that does NOT look like a real gun.) and make up your own mix of peppers and/or ammonia. That way if it is illegal, you lose less than $1.00 and you probably won't be pulled in even though it was illegal.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Frankie,

Capsaicin is the active ingredient in oleoresin capsicum. Most companies will advertise their product's "heat rating" in "Scoville Heat Units." Rather misleading, when you find out the Scoville Heat Rating system was a series of subjective taste tests. I'd recommend sticking to products from companies that produce heavily tested reliable aerosols for law enforcement or the military; like DefTec, Fox Labs, and Federal (to name a few.) Those companies all make their products available in handy, easy to carry and easy to use canisters. Keep in mind however, those formulations are typically geared towards thwarting aggressive human behavior. Formulations intended for dangerous animals aren't typically safe for use on humans (a consideration - what if the air currents carry it back to you?)

Any aerosol needs a propellant, an active agent, and a carrier to thin the active agent and carry it to the target. I'd recommend staying away from aerosols using water as the carrier - water is the primary first aid treatment for exposure and it minimizes exposure - an important consideration when dealing with unpredictable animals or humans. I've personally observed hundreds of people immediately disabled by direct OC exposure, with only a score or so able to continue resistance after exposure and only a handful seemingly unaffected. Animals are a different story. I've seen a few very temporarily discouraged from aggressive/hostile behavior after direct OC exposure. I've seen and heard of many reports of dangerous animals which were displaying non aggressive behavior being run out of campsites via direct exposure to OC, not something I'd want to try myself without a sufficient caliber backup.

M

"(a consideration - what if the air currents carry it back to you?)" and "I'd recommend staying away from aerosols using water as the carrier - water is the primary first aid treatment for exposure and it minimizes exposure "
...and what if it's raining?

Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert, what follows is simply my own opinion.

This (a cheap plastic squirt gun) probably wouldn't be as effective - you'd need a direct hit in the face and I'm not even sure that would be effective.

With an aerosol spray, you get a cloud that will go into the eyes and nose, causing sneezing and temporary blindness.

If it's for use on animals, I think I'd be more inclined to purchase commercial bear spray.

If you're being stalked by a predator (rare but it does happen) they're probably going to be approaching from downwind of you, in which case the wind will, if anything, carry the spray away from you; otoh, if you inadvertantly blunder into them and they attack because they've been startled, then they'll more likely be upwind of you (otherwise they'd have sensed you coming) and the wind will be working against you. Since most bear attacks are of the latter variety, I'd consider pepper spray to be kind of a last resort; a rousing chorus of "Barrett's Privateers" as you're hiking through the woods is probably a better deterrent <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"a rousing chorus of "Barrett's Privateers" as you're hiking through the woods is probably a better deterrent"

I just downloaded a mp3 of Barrett's Privateers and I understand what you mean now...

Here is a good "course" on self defense sprays.

http://www.galls.com/DefSpray1.html

In Canada, bear sprays are legal if they conform to Canadian standards. I believe they must be large enough so they can not be easily hidden.

The best sprays are a sticky spray, about the viscosity of honey, that does not disperse easily in mild winds. Not all sprays available in the US are allowed in Canada. We have had no problems carrying sprays into Canada as the bear spray we carry was purchased in Canada.

We consider dogs to be the most dangerous animal we are likely to encounter. I worked for a time in a hospital Emergency Room. Dog bites are common and do serious damage. I have seen a childs head pierced by the teeth of a family pet (child died). Witnesses say the dog just walked over to the child and clamped down on the kids head.

In another, much studied incident, a dog attacked a man on the street without warning. The owner, a large male, was unable to physically restrain the dog. After a great deal of investigation the following was discovered.

The dog was put inside everyday while the owners went to work. Once a week, a garbage man entered the back yard (the dogs domain), made a lot of noise and took something (the smelly garbage). Neighbors said that the dog always "went nuts", barking and banging against the door, whenever the garbage man came.

The man that was attacked looked a lot like the garbage man.

Never trust any dog. You just don't know what is going on in "dog world".

Pepper spray has worked on a dog for me.
I was at a playground with my then 3 year old son, and my wife. From out of nowhere comes this 50 lb dog, snarling, barking and running at my kid!

I put myself between dog and family, a raised my left arm and shouted BACK! BACK! as my right hand went into my pocket for the pepper spray, I manuevered so I was upwind of the dog, who was standing 3 feet from me snarling and baring his teeth. My wife & son made it to the van, the dog lunged to me, I sprayed a 5 second blast of 15% pepper spray directly into the dog's nose. He snarled and continued forward toward me, but obviously could not see where I was, as he was snapping at the air. We got into the van, called Animal Control, and they said that there was nothing they could do.
Apparently this dog has attacked kids on the schoolyard before, why it's not dead yet is a mystery to me.

Martinfocazio:

The reason that dog is not dead is simple!

While it was disoriented, you didn't pick up a rock, tire jack, tire iron, your wife's high heeled shoes, a baseball bat, an outdoor grill, or anything else you could lay your hands on and kill the dog.

Mercy should always prevail, but that was not a circumstance where mercy was warranted.

Bountyhunter

You have no idea how much I wanted to smash that dog's skull in...but at the same time, I was thinking that it would be ME seen as the bad guy for harming a "poor, misunderstood dog" on SCHOOL GROUNDS.

If it had been on my property - or just about anywhere else - that dog would have been dead on the spot.

Schools are funny places here, with complex and mysterious laws that can make a seemingly obvious course of action - eliminate a clear and present danger to a child - an entry point to a long, horrible legal battle.

The basic human right of self-defense is abdicated by all on the grounds of a public school, with the predicatable results of the strong preying on the weak, something that is a matter of discussion perhaps in another forum. The legal risks to myself left me with no other choice but to let the dog live.

I'll finish with a positive note - the pepper spray was very effective, the dog was disoriented and unable to attack properly, and I was able to prevent harm to my child. In the end, I committed a small crime (pepper spray is illegal on school grounds) in this act.

OC based animal repellents are legal to purchase and possess. If you're ever stopped, the correct answer to the question, "Why do you carry this item?" is, "There is a large dog on my way home that has jumped the fence/isn't chained up/want's to make my body parts a snack." Of course, then I'd have to ask why you're getting asked that question in the first place.

If you say something like, "This area has some dangerous 2-legged predators", you may get a dangerous weapons charge.

OC and Canada...legal for 4 legged critters. Now...if you're ever attacked by a 2 legged one, you *are* permitted to use any weapon of opportunity if you feel your life is threatened, or if an attack could cause you or another grievous bodily harm.

Just note that I've read reports of 2 legged ones shrugging off OC hits because they have a tolerance to it from eating insanely spicy food.

How insanely hot does the food have to be?

I can eat those little 1/2" peppers that burn going in and coming out as if they were teary eye causing popcorn. I also like to add a little black pepper on the hot cheyenne pepper which is sprinkled on the hot sauce covering the jalpeno pepper.

When I get a pretty woman scratching the door for me, it's usually to get out of the room we are in.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I *could* tell you precisely which culture I have found OC to be less effective on, but:

{{This particular subject, and how it *could* be construed}}

[10 foot pole]

(((me)))

But...think about kinds of foods that invoke tears at the mere whiff of them...or watch "A Cook's Tour" on the food channel and see what makes Tony's eyes water....

i know this is late, but i've had some dealings with OC on numerous occasions.

OC has 3 seperate intended effects.
1. severe skin irritation
2. inflammation of mucus membranes
3. respiritory distress

You cannot build up a tolerance for OC. Thats like saying that given enough time, your skin will be impervious to fire. Also, as far a respiratory and the immflamation of the mucus membranes, thats the bodies natural way of removing the irritation. everything in your face comes out, and you *feel* like you can't breathe. albeit it is harder to breathe, your still normally capable. If you do spray someone, it is best advised to call 911 and try to make sure they don't die. wrongful death law suits = no fun. regardless of how righteous you are.

when it comes to animals, I would reccomend a big heavy object over OC any day of the week. even better, a firearm... ive heard of multiple occasions where even the strongest of OC hasnt stopped a motivated pit bull...now the business end of a ball-peen hammer or a brick should TCOB.


ps- i second the vote for FoxLabs..OCAT is good too.

Hi Rumbaugh,

The only weapon that's legal to carry in Canada is a plastic knife from Kentucky Fried Chickens.

Frankie