The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978

Posted by: DennisTheMenace

The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 03:22 PM

Around 1978, when I was young and new in the Air Force, a friend showed me the Randall knife catalog. I decided it would be neat to own a 'survival knife'. So I ordered, and eventually received, a 7 1/2" (because bigger was better) Randal Model 18 "Attack and Survival" knife. It's the larger of the two knives in this picture (Model 18).

I later became an in-flight radio technician on the airborne command post and carried the knife (among other things) in my personal gear when I flew. I never needed it in an emergency, so if it served as a good luck charm or talisman against Murphy’s Law it served me well.

Since I discovered Equipped.org I've learned it was not exactly the best choice for a survival knife, and I'm wondering if it still has a place in my survival kit. I don't fly for the Air Force anymore, but my wife and I recently purchased a Jeep Wrangler and plan to take it on day trips into the boondocks. I’ll have an emergency/survival kit in the Jeep, and it occurred to me that while the Randall knife might have a place in the kit, it might be possible to alter it to make it a better and more useful tool.

My primary concern is that the knife has a very sharp saw-tooth edge on the top of the knife. From my reading on equipped.org I’ve learned that’s not a particularly useful feature, and is probably a detrimental feature. I’m wondering if it can be modified to make it more useful as a ‘saw’ (perhaps by doing some offset filing of the teeth to make it more ‘saw-like’) or to remove it by grinding the teeth off to remove them as a hazard to the user. Totally removing the teeth would change the contour and visual balance of the knife, but mike make sense if it makes the knife a more useful tool.

I would appreciate anyone’s opinion regarding the Model 18 knife. In particular, is it an example of a foolish purchase that should be relegated to a display case, a good knife that should remain unchanged or a knife that could/should be modified to make it the most useful tool it can be.

Your thoughts?

Dennis
Posted by: Doug_Ritter

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 04:00 PM

You would probably do much better to sell the Model 18 to a collector and buy a more suitable knife. The older Randalls are generally very collectible and you may be surprised by what it's worth.
Posted by: DennisTheMenace

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 04:29 PM

Doug,

I'm honored by having you reply to my first post on the forum, thank you! Actually, I thought about selling it, but there's a minor hitch. When I ordered the knife I have them put "USAF" and my serial number (social security number) on the knife so I couldn't 'lose' it. Now, with identity theft a serious threat it's not something I can safely sell unless I remove the markings, and destroy the collectors value of the knife.

By the way, I just ordered three of your pocket survival kits from aeromedix. One will go into an emergency box I'm building for our nephew (who graduates from High School tommorow) and the other two will go into my emergency kits. I hope to never need them, but they'll provide a lot more security for less money than a lot of other things I've purchased over the years.

Dennis
Posted by: Chris Kavanaugh

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 05:00 PM

Actually, many collectors find past ownership or provenance part of the allure. You may want to pose this question @ www.knifeforums.com in the military knives forum. If it's just your S/S # identity theft is less likely.
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 05:32 PM

IMHO, keep the knife. If you want to put it in your vehicle kit, OK, but I would keep it at home. Get something different for the vehicle - plenty of discussion here and at knife forums about that sort of thing. You can afford the weight for a hatchet, axe, froe, saw, whatever, so as little as $10 for a stainless Mora will net you a good, useful knife for the Jeep. Or a Leuko (sp) set of a large and small scandi-type knives.

Regards,

Tom
Posted by: DennisTheMenace

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 05:57 PM

Chris,

I went whole hog when I bought it, full name (including middle initial), "USAF" and social security number. However, upon further reflection I think you're right that it if were only my social security number my identify theft risk would be low. To tell the truth, I hadn't handled it in so long, I had to go get it and look at the blade to write this paragraph.

I shouldn't complain. When I was stationed in Hawaii I put the Randall knife in the sheath of stereotypically large scuba diver's knife and took it scuba diving. Once. Before the dive was over I realized the knife had fallen out of the sheath. I learned that day how important it is for each piece of a tool to fit together properly. My mismatched knife sheath combination could have been fatal in an emergency.

That story ended happily, there wasn't an emergency. And when I got home there was a message on my answering machine from a Marine who'd been scuba diving in the same spot (Shark's Cove on the North shore of Oahu) and who had found my knife. He saw my name and "USAF" on the knife and tracked me down. I drove to his home at Kaneohe Marine Corp Air Station that evening to retreive it.

I think I'd better keep it, it's traveled a lot of miles with me. It's flown many long boring hours circling over the midwest, spent many weeks stashed in the airplane while it was on alert in Strategic Air Command, and flown across the Pacific many times. While there were inflight emergencies, the planes always came down on runways, even if not the one's originally intended. I think I'll have to take half of Doug's advice and buy a knife better suited to service in an emgency. But I think I'll keep this one ready as a backup, just in case.

That, and continue my education on equipped.org.

Dennis
Posted by: Paul810

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 07:49 PM

I would say put the Randall in your safe keeping box as a collectors item you can pass on one day. I'm sure it is something your (future) son or nephew would like? May I also suggest writing up a little paper of where it has been and put it in the handle, for future refrence. Then go out and buy yourself a nice new "survival knife." If you like the hollow handle design take a look at Chris Reeve knives, they arn't cheap, but they are certainly worth it and are the same (if not better) quality then the Randall.
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 05/29/04 09:44 PM

Dennis,:

Does your Randall have the sharp internal threading that cuts a thread into wood shafts inserted in the handle?

How is the handle and blade attached to each other?

Bountyhunter
Posted by: DennisTheMenace

Re: characteristics of Randal model 18 (1978) - 05/30/04 12:40 PM

BountyHunter,

The hollow handle on my Randall model 18 is soldered to a brass handguard located between the handle and blade. There is also an epoxy plug about 1" deep in the handle which also serves to help keep everything together. The only threads on my knife are the fine threads for the buttcap to screw on to the end of the handle. The brass guard has lanyard holes at either end to serve as tiedown points in contstruction of an improvised spear.

Does that answer your question?

Dennis
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: characteristics of Randal model 18 (1978) - 05/30/04 08:51 PM

Dennis:

That does answer the question.

Do you or anyone on the forum know who made the "Survival knife" that used to advertise that it had threading die like deep threads in its handle that would allow you cut threads in wood and to screw it onto a properly sized shaft for use as a spear?

If anyone knows of the knife, was it a legitimate claim and were the handle and blade sufficiently joined so that they could not come apart easily, or was it a cheaply made knife?

A quality knife of this sort would allow you to use a walking stick with threads on the end and not scare the "sheepl" that might be concerned if you had a spear as a walking stick. In a pinch, you could always make a shaft by whittling the end of a piece of wood to the approximate diameter and cut the threads onto the wood as you attach the kinife.

Thanks!

Bountyhunter
Posted by: paulr

Re: characteristics of Randal model 18 (1978) - 06/01/04 07:43 PM

The Cold Steel "Bushman" had a hollow handle with a hole for tying it to a stick and making a spear. It was a pretty sturdy knife, stupid-looking but functional for 15 bucks or so. The spear concept seemed pretty hokey to me. Cold Steel makes good quality stuff, but was (and is) full of silly marketing gimmicks along those lines.
Posted by: SheetBend

Re: The follies of youth? Randall knife from 1978 - 06/01/04 08:00 PM

I also have one of these knifes that I carried in Vietnam with a brass "spark lite" and some other items in the handle. I decided to pass it on to my son when he gets older. He can compare it to my Gerber "wasp blade" survival knife and K-bar, and he can see what we used then. All the knives saw use but the K-bar the most. A link to his family past.
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: characteristics of Randal model 18 (1978) - 06/01/04 11:51 PM

Paulr:

I am familiar with the cold steel bushman, but have never found out how you are supposed to attach a shaft to it. Just pushing it onto the end makes no sense unless you are supposed to epoxy it in place and that would defeat the versatility of a knife that could be used as a spear.

The knife I am thinking about looked stock with standard hilt, but the handle was hollow and according to the advertisements I remember, the internal threads were deep and staggered like a threading die so that you could screw the shaft on and screw it off, put the cap back on the handle and it was a regular fixed blade knife again.

This was a long time ago and I suppose people on the Knife forum might be able to remember who made it.

Bountyhunter
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: characteristics of Randal model 18 (1978) - 06/02/04 03:22 AM

Bounty hunter - let me offer a different point of view:

RE: Bushman: There is a hole drilled in the handle that you can use to put a wood screw or nail through into the spear shaft. And the tapered socket is the only effective way to haft wood to a metal tool.

First, though, the shaft needs to be shaped - the Bushman socket is properly tapered - widest at the opening. That's actually the proper way to make a socket - be it for a bodkin arrow point, a lance, or an expedient spear. A straight cylindrical socket is very impractical to properly fit to a shaft without a lathe and even then it is a compromise as the wood shrinks and swells from drying out/getting soaked, will often split the shaft from transfering axial shock directly to the end of the shaft, etc.

Shaping the shaft for the socket is simple enough - use the Bushman as a drawknife (carefully - a leather glove on the off-hand is a smart precaution). Lay the shaft out in front of you, passing between your feet (grip shaft with feet)), across your strong-side thigh, and ending up about at your strong-side hip or a little short of that, depending on your body proportions. Draw, rotate, draw, rotate - it doesn't take very long. You can vary position/grip of the shaft by twining your feet/lower legs around the shaft - easier to show/do than write about.

Having hafted both types (hollow-handle knives and Bushman), there is no question in my mind that the Bushman approach is real-world superior - and after all, thousands of years of armorers using tapered sockets probably wasn't just tradition. I suspect that the hollow-handle knife designers never went to a museum and studied medveial weaponry details or visited aboriginal blacksmiths in the bush... even a modern shovel uses a tapered socket, not a cylindrical one, and the reasons are the same - grip, transfer of axial and lateral forces, fit, etc. For another modern example, examine a quality wood chisel with a wooden handle - tapered socket. (Cheesy ones are not made that way - the best ones are).

We have a couple of Bushman knives and a couple of mini-Bushmans. They are what I call "truck" or "car" knives - not routinely carried on person, but useful & cheap enough to keep in vehicle kits. Very sharp and easy to keep that way - I suspect the Rockwell hardness is not as high as we have become accustomed to so that they are far less likely to break - I can straighten a bend in the woods, but a broken knife... reading old Africa tales, authors claimed the abos prefered "softer" knives and spear points for exactly that reason.

I think the mini is a much more practical size - YMMV. And I have an issue with the lack of a guard when used as a knife, which is exacerbated by the taper towards the sharp. I think of them more as single-edged stabbing spear heads that can be used as a knife than the other way around... but Bagheera uses Bushman/minis as the kitchen and GP knives in his Scout Troop in Holland and has reported here very favorably about them in those uses.

Anyway, some food for thought - If a spear is an object, I'll argue strenuously that the Bushman approach is far more practical than any non-tapered socket in a hollow-handled knife.

Feel free to argue otherwise - I'm open minded.

Regards,

Tom
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/02/04 06:29 PM

I have no argument regarding strength or ease of conversion for use with a raw shaft.

My thoughts were that any knife used in the manner of a stabbing spear could then be returned to its orignal configuration for regular knife tasks. If I owned such a knife, I would make a walking stick with matching threads (Preferably metal or fiberglass threading.) that could be capped to cover and protect the threads on the stick.

Since common sense (At least to those of us on these types of forums.) dictates that you never throw away your strongest weapon ("Asset", for the sheepls.), a soft blade is not that important since you will be controlling the blade mostly in a thrusting manner and not a slashing manner.

The deep threads that the knife had in the handle would better serve to retain the knife on the shaft from the forces of torque if the shaft to knife fit was not perfectly tight.

Do you know why the Romans had a multi wood shaft bundled spear with a thin bendable shaft with spear point protruding from the bundle and one of the primary ways it was used?

Bountyhunter
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/02/04 06:54 PM

Quote:
Do you know why the Romans had a multi wood shaft bundled spear with a thin bendable shaft with spear point protruding from the bundle and one of the primary ways it was used?


Hmm. Nope. I'm familiar with the pilum, but it only had a single wooden shaft. They were intended to pierce shield and/or armor, be difficult to withdraw, and bend from its own weight once embedded. They were thus an entanglement and if they were able to be withdrawn, were useless for the duration of the engagement - too bent to be effectively thrown back at the Romans. Clever, and very suited for the Roman tactics.

Do tell about the other Roman gadget - I'm not familiar with it.

Tom
Posted by: bountyhunter

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/02/04 09:10 PM

Didn't know it was called a pilum, but the description you gave for its use is exactly what one of my history teachers taught us in high school.

You have to remember that in those days, a teacher wouldn't lose their job for teaching about "weapons" in school.

I always thought the center shaft was a bendable metal. Glad you "straightened" me out about that.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted by: AyersTG

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/02/04 10:51 PM

Pete,

I'm not sure I remember the spelling correctly, but it's something like that. Someone probably has pictures of them somewhere on the WWW these days.

Tom
Posted by: David

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/03/04 09:21 PM

The pilum was a short, throwing or thrusting spear, used as you describe, & somewhat akin to the assegai.

The "bundled" handled thing you're describing was the faces (pronounced "fah-shees"), which had an axe head bound inside, and protruding from, a number of shafts. It was used as a symbol of power of the Roman Government, and is still used to adorn government edifices. Here in TN, the state House of Represenatives chamber has a couple of them carved in the marble rostrum around the speaker's chair.

I don't recall the origin of it, nor that it was used as a weapon, merely as a symbol of power (of the tribunes, I think--but memory is fading fast!)

And yes, the faces is the root word for "PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.".

David
Posted by: joblot

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/03/04 09:33 PM

Its actually spelt fasces
I quote " the bundle of rods with a projecting axe-head which was carried before the consuls as the insignia of state authority in ancient Rome"
From the Fontana Dictionary of modern Thought
Posted by: dBu24

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/04/04 10:52 AM

...and in more modern times the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. party was named after that thing

The fasce was in fact a roman combat axe.
Posted by: David

Re: Randall model 18 (1978)-Roman spear - 06/04/04 04:16 PM

Fasces...yep, that would explain why I couldn't find it in a search... <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

David