Questions regarding two of my favorite things...

Food and water!

I carry the majority of my survival gear in my trunk, as I'm rarely found very far from my car. I also happen to live in the Midwest, which means my gear experiences some fairly radical temperature swings...from the broiling heat of summer to the veritable deep freeze of winter. So my questions are simply this: How well do MREs stand up to such temperature extremes? Will they survive being frozen, thawed, and refrozen again, or is that simply asking for trouble? Also, what's the best way to store water? I had several 1 gallon jugs of water in the car, but our recent frost convinced me to bring them back inside for the time being. I considered dumping some of the water out of each jug in order to provide a little room for ice expansion, but I'm not sure I trust those cheap plastic jugs that much. Are the little survival water packages durable enough to stand a solid freeze, or is that questionable too? I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts and/or suggestions on these issues! <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Exposing MREs to extremes of heat and cold reduces their shelf life - the lower the temprature the longer they last, freezing/thawing severely reduces their shelf life.
This is a good site for information on MREs -

http://www.mreinfo.com/mre-longevity.html

I found it helpful anyway ... at the end of their life they can still be edible as long as the packets don't swell up or the contents smell ok (though the vitamin content may be long gone).

As far as water storage goes, I'm still looking for the definitive answer re untreated tap water storage life. If anyone can give an answer I'd be interested. Still, if you were desperate for a drink, how bad could your stored water get ...

>>I'm still looking for the definitive answer re untreated tap water storage life. If anyone can give an answer I'd be interested. Still, if you were desperate for a drink, how bad could your stored water get ...<<

I found the information on this subject frustratingly incomplete, full of nonsense like "bacteria count" without saying what KIND of bacteria were found (as though it didn't matter)- and, in the end, I decided to go my own route.

I don't treat the water in storage. I've rotated the stock every 2-3 years at best. I have multiple ways of treating it- three Katadyn filters in different sizes, stored chlorine bleach, several ways to boil, Potable Aqua tablets.. heck, I've got enough fuel stored I could probably distill it- WHEN and IF it's ever needed for drinking. Chances are it will never be used that way- last time we had a drought, I rotated part of it out by using it to water the garden (which I think almost got me turned in to the "drought police" by a busybody neighbor, who didn't know, and probably wouldn't care that I didn't replace the water I used until after the drought was over). In a known short-term emergency, we might be using it to flush toilets.

I don't see the point in treating it for years before it's needed, especially by constantly adding more and more toxic chemicals.

Yeah, Ive seen a little slimy algae near the tops of the barrels- that's a far cry from coliform bacteria or even Giardia. Probably wouldn't hurt me to drink it untreated anyway (I have 1,000 coffee filters stored that will take care of the algae as a first step), but it's a moot point- I don't intend to. I'll treat what's needed for drinking when it's needed for drinking.

I'm so glad you asked this. I've been wondering the same thing. I'll be interested to see the solutions people have come up with.

I'm more concerned about the water jugs breaking open inside my trunk when they freeze!

As P_L wrote, I am not sure there is an answer to the tap water question. Too many variables. I have the same problem with the climate (MidWest USA), now exacerbated with my recent infatuation with a Camelbak essentials pack. My solution for this winter is probably going to be a dry reservoir and two Lexan Nalgene bottles, coupled with lugging the darn thing in and out of my personal vehicle each day.

My carry water doesn't have a chance to get more than about 2 weeks old year-around so storage life of that is not an issue - it's just the freezing. My take on the question is that if it was good to drink when you put it in a clean container and it does not have visible gunk in it, it's OK to drink <gasp> - well, that works for me, anyway. Worst case I have a least a bandana and iodine tabs with me.

Long term storage of bulk water is a whole topic on its own. I have some good 5 year old tap water (about 330 gallons) back in the store room... and what P_L wrote is sound reasoning IMHO. But my bulk water has been in a dark constant cool temp place all that time. It's a little flat to my taste, but not as flat as boiled water. I should cycle it... I think I wrote that last year... but it's still good (eyedropper samples sipped annually).

Tom

I put gallon water jugs in the freezer prior to camping trips ( to serve as ice blocks for the cooler and for drinking water when they thaw.) The jugs bulge around the side a bit but remain intact.
I'd keep them in a plastic milk crate so they don't get knocked around or punctured. Replace them in 6 months because the plastic may become brittle from the temp extremes in the trunk.

The Red Cross recommends you rotate your water stock pile every 6 months anyway. I try to use the old stuff when we go camping and replace it when we get back. I also store several extra cases of the 12 and 16oz water bottles which we use every day (lunches, kids soccer practice, to keep on my desk,etc.). That way the stuff is never older than a couple months.

Brian

I agree with Blisk. The water you have in your trunk should be ok, I would jus rotate it. having lived in the midwest (Oklahoma/Kansas) I know there is a lot of water available if your waer goes bad. I think that if you rotated your water once a month or two, you should be OK. Since it sounds like you dont have too much, maybe just rotate everytime you change your oil!

Garrett

For myself, to keep water rotation same with oil, I have to punch holes in the water containers and top them up when I do with the oil every single day or two!

Burak
76 Range Rover (If it ain't leaking, it means there is no oil in it <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I take good old all mechanical rover over those new electronic computer controled SUVs any day. Drove one in Kenya and Tanzania and those are the best damn cars in the world. Not the most comfortable one but good.

Matt

Hi,

I don't post very often, but this topic is something I am very interested in as well. I have some comments I'd like to add to the thread.

I am considering storing water in underground storage. The reason I'm thinking about doing this is because the earth's temperature below 6-7 feet underground stays at a constant temperature of around 50-70 degrees. And this is all over the earth. I have a few sources for these figures somewhere. I'll post them later. Just want to get the idea out here first.

I know this information doesn't really apply to your water storage needs because you said you wanted to store your water in your car, but maybe you and others can use this information.

I also have a comment on plastic milk jugs. I know that plastic milk jugs may seem flimsy, but I know they are very sturdy. We used one as a childish prank filling it with some chemicals to get it to explode. And let me tell you it took forever for anything to happen. Nothing happened so one of my friends started kicking it. Still nothing. About ten minutes later we were actually throwing this thing into the ground with all of our might. Still nothing. Finally one of my friends gets this thing and throws it with all of his might at a boulder and the thing finally explodes in a shower of bubbles and foam. Lesson: Don't leave teenagers alone to entertain themselves. The other lesson: Milk containers don't break or even leak under extreem abuse. I'd like to point out that it had a twist on cap not a pop on tab.

Placing them in a crate may reduce their ability to expand outward. So I'd put a little more headroom at the top.

BTW, this summer I found a small water bottle I had stuck in my storage tub (no trunk in the '91 Montero). It had been in there all winter and was still intact.

I have to disagree with Wayneburg's observations of milk jugs. While they are generally pretty tough, I've had them rupture when they hit the ground after the grocery sack ripped open. This was factory sealed, & full of milk, & required a trip back into the store for a replacement. I've also dropped one onto the floor & had it rupture.

I've also seen 2 & 3 liter soft drink bottles rupture when dropped (shatter is more like it). They're especially vulnerable when the cap hits the ground. I still have Pepsi spots on the interior ceiling of my Suburban from one dropping to the pavement when the grocery sack ripped open (Hmmm...maybe I'd better either sack my own groceries, or change grocers...) This has happened more than once.

Extreme temperature changes for a long term, and especially exposure to sunlight (UV rays?) will weaken milk jugs & soft drink bottles.

It seems as if they're tough as nails when I'm trying to destroy one, and fragile as glass when I'm not expecting it to break. YMMV.

David

milk jugs are ment for short term storage, the plastic it is made of, deteriates very rapidly compaired to others, so it might be ok wenn new, but wenn you leave it a little longer it will get cinificantly weaker.

Thanks Presumed_Lost, you answered my question!

Very good logic, I've pretty well much got all the equipment you mentioned, so why keep adding bleach etc to my stored water - effectively poisoning it. Just treat it as a stream and treat as and when for drinking, bearing in mind it may go down the toilet or in the sink for washing myself or clothes.

Cheers for that!

My experience has been that the yellow milk/juice gallon containers seem to have a greater bursting strength than the white material. Admittedly, this is anectodal evidence, and I'm not sure if there is an actual difference in the plastics between the two.

Thanks- I've never seen the strategy in print, so, all I can say is that it makes sense to me. Could be some hidden flaw- but if the water is purified, I don't see any downside to it having been done recently.

Rembember what a friend of mine once said- "the art of food preservation is poisoning it just enough so that bacteria are too smart to eat it- and you're not". <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I leave water in my car in the UK and whilst we don't get temperatures of silly below, we often get -5 to -10 (or worse in the hills). I've noticed that the water rarley freezes completely. Since the ice forms at the top of the container first I simply store them upside down (they are leak proof!). That way the ice really forms at the bottom of the container and the top/spout is clear. Simple but effective.